---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/29/15: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:39 AM - Re: Re: V Speeds (Alan Mekler MD) 2. 07:03 AM - Re: Re: V Speeds (Kelly McMullen) 3. 08:06 AM - Re: V Speeds (kearney) 4. 02:11 PM - Signs of corrosion on tail cone (Bill Watson) 5. 02:59 PM - Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone (Marcus Cooper) 6. 03:14 PM - Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone (Carl Froehlich) 7. 06:53 PM - Re: Signs of corrosion on tail cone (Bill Watson) 8. 06:53 PM - Crack with Door Latch Fit (mhealydds) 9. 07:01 PM - Re: V Speeds (Rocketman1988) 10. 07:12 PM - Re: Crack with Door Latch Fit (Phillip Perry) 11. 07:24 PM - airworthiness documentation (David) 12. 07:42 PM - Re: Crack with Door Latch Fit (David Saylor) 13. 07:44 PM - Re: airworthiness documentation (Dj Merrill) 14. 07:46 PM - Re: airworthiness documentation (David Saylor) 15. 07:49 PM - Re: airworthiness documentation (Dj Merrill) 16. 07:50 PM - Re: airworthiness documentation (Jim Beyer) 17. 10:10 PM - Re: airworthiness documentation (Jesse Saint) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: V Speeds From: Alan Mekler MD Has anyone seen a TAS close to 200 kts at higher altitudes? I typically fly at less than 10,000 feet and see TAS at 170 kts. A descent with power on could easily exceed 200 kts TAS. Alan > On Jul 29, 2015, at 2:00 AM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > [quote="Kelly McMullen"]I think Vans stated Vne as a TAS because it is based on the design flutter speed, which IS a TAS, 200 kts or 230 mph for the -10. Flutter happens based on the speed of the molecules going past the control surface and what harmonics that induces in the control surface. Indicated is derived from the pressure the molecules exert on the pitot tube, and thinner air is more compressible so IAS goes down as altitude goes up. > > As the manufacturer, you can either translate that TAS back to an indicated airspeed, plus a fudge factor to account for density altitude differences, or, if you have an EFIS, let it displace TAS as supplemental info and input your Vne as a TAS. I think I will still subtract 5 kts as a safety margin, in case the elevator or ailerons might flutter at lower speed with some bird droppings or frost or whatever. > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 5:59 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > >> >> Calibrated airspeed is the same as indicated airspeed, if there are no instrument or pitot-static errors. >> Normally certified aircraft use CAS (or IAS) to specify Vne because this information is available to the pilot. Many airplanes do not display TAS. I can only imagine how few pilots would pull out an E6B as they nose over in a dive, to calculate TAS from CAS. >> I am also disappointed that Vans has chosen a very unorthodox approach in specifying Vne in TAS, contrary to what most pilots were taught. >> I would really like to know: is this number derived solely from ground vibration tests? Did Vans test-dive the aircraft, and if so to what speed, and what altitude? >> >> -------- >> Bob Turner >> RV-10 QB >> >> [b] > > > If only the world was this simple. There are many different flutter modes possible. And they scale differently. For some the onset of flutter depends only on TAS. For others, the onset depends on the product of TAS and the square root of density - indicated airspeed. Still other modes have a density-airspeed scaling which is in between these two. And which mode is excited at any given time depends on the stiffness of the airframe part involved, etc. It really is as much art as science. But to say only TAS is important is an over simplification. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445325#445325 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: V Speeds From: Kelly McMullen What is simple is that Vans has provided what they state was their design flutter speed, as a limitation that should not be exceeded. Only if you want to play test pilot, with parachute, quick release door (oh wait, we already have that), recovery chute, etc and go do some dive testing................or if you are an aeronautical engineer and can get the same data that Vans used to re-evaluate their calculations, we have no way to further evaluate that number or to even decide how closely we should approach that number. We only know it is a published number, in TAS that Vans strongly recommends not exceeding. I suppose another aeronautical engineer could design some new flight controls with a higher design value, publish some plans or sell completed control surfaces, but we don't have that situation today. On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > > > If only the world was this simple. There are many different flutter modes > possible. And they scale differently. For some the onset of flutter depends > only on TAS. For others, the onset depends on the product of TAS and the > square root of density - indicated airspeed. Still other modes have a > density-airspeed scaling which is in between these two. And which mode is > excited at any given time depends on the stiffness of the airframe part > involved, etc. It really is as much art as science. But to say only TAS is > important is an over simplification. > > -------- > Bob Turner > RV-10 QB > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445325#445325 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:30 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: V Speeds From: "kearney" Hmmm So my plan is to set my IAS limit to about 170 KIAS on the EFIS. At 10k this translates to about 201 KTAS give or take. Higher than that I'll keep on eye on the KTAS shown on the EFIS. Lower that that and it is a non-issue as I will normally be well below the limit. I don't plan to tempt fate by messing with the flutter gods. They sound vengeful. As a side note, and as I mentioned in my original post, there are a lots of docs quoting the RV10 Vne as 200 KIAS and not 200 KTAS. This is a big difference. I guess this only goes to show we had better be careful about what we take as gospel from the internet. Cheers Les Kelly McMullen wrote: > What is simple is that Vans has provided what they state was their design flutter speed, as a limitation that should not be exceeded. Only if you want to play test pilot, with parachute, quick release door (oh wait, we already have that), recovery chute, etc and go do some dive testing................or if you are an aeronautical engineer and can get the same data that Vans used to re-evaluate their calculations, we have no way to further evaluate that number or to even decide how closely we should approach that number. We only know it is a published number, in TAS that Vans strongly recommends not exceeding. > > I suppose another aeronautical engineer could design some new flight controls with a higher design value, publish some plans or sell completed control surfaces, but we don't have that situation today. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445325#445325 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445325#445325) > > > > > [b] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445342#445342 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:32 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: RV10-List: Signs of corrosion on tail cone I'm beginning to see signs of corrosion between the top skin and the side skins of my tailcone. The corrosion is happening underneath the paint. Inside the tailcone there are a few 'wisps' of grayish corrosion coming up from the same joint which is riveted to the angle longerons. Anyone else experiencing this? What are you finding, what have you done? Plane is hangared except when traveling and only occassionally sees salt air - and I wash it down after each encounter. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:59:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Signs of corrosion on tail cone From: Marcus Cooper Im not sure if this will help with corrosion already there, but I sprayed the tailbone with Corrosion X and the film is still there after 7 years and 720 hours. I appreciate you bringing this up though as it wouldnt hurt to apply again. One gotcha, do NOT apply this until after you paint your airplane, otherwise it will be a bear to get the paint to adhere properly. Marcus > On Jul 30, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > > I'm beginning to see signs of corrosion between the top skin and the side skins of my tailcone. The corrosion is happening underneath the paint. Inside the tailcone there are a few 'wisps' of grayish corrosion coming up from the same joint which is riveted to the angle longerons. > > Anyone else experiencing this? What are you finding, what have you done? > > Plane is hangared except when traveling and only occassionally sees salt air - and I wash it down after each encounter. > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:14:42 PM PST US From: Carl Froehlich Subject: Re: RV10-List: Signs of corrosion on tail cone Is this a quick build? Carl > On Jul 29, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Bill Watson wrote: > > > I'm beginning to see signs of corrosion between the top skin and the side skins of my tailcone. The corrosion is happening underneath the paint. Inside the tailcone there are a few 'wisps' of grayish corrosion coming up from the same joint which is riveted to the angle longerons. > > Anyone else experiencing this? What are you finding, what have you done? > > Plane is hangared except when traveling and only occassionally sees salt air - and I wash it down after each encounter. > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:05 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: RV10-List: Signs of corrosion on tail cone Yes, but I build the tailcone. No relationship between the two I would think. On 7/29/2015 6:11 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > Is this a quick build? > > Carl > > >> On Jul 29, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Bill Watson wrote: >> >> >> I'm beginning to see signs of corrosion between the top skin and the side skins of my tailcone. The corrosion is happening underneath the paint. Inside the tailcone there are a few 'wisps' of grayish corrosion coming up from the same joint which is riveted to the angle longerons. >> >> Anyone else experiencing this? What are you finding, what have you done? >> >> Plane is hangared except when traveling and only occassionally sees salt air - and I wash it down after each encounter. >> >> >> >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:25 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Crack with Door Latch Fit From: "mhealydds" Had and accident tonight while fitting door pin guides for RV-10 door. While testing door latch fit, the front pin was not engaged as it should have been and slipped to side skin and torn it as shown in pictures. Any thoughts on a fix - quite disappointed in myself at the moment..... Matt Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445394#445394 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1161_196.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:28 PM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: V Speeds From: "Rocketman1988" Y'all were talking about the coffin corner and thought you might like to have a visual. In this photo, the yellow bars on the speed tape represent Mach buffet above and stall below the indicated airspeed. We were not at our altitude ceiling, but as you climb, the two yellow bars get closer to the airspeed. At our ceiling, there is only a few knots above or below. Also note the blue PLI (pitch limit indicator). It is only a few degrees above the current pitch in level flight. That PLI it where the stick shaker activates... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445396#445396 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0168_478.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:18 PM PST US From: Phillip Perry Subject: Re: RV10-List: Crack with Door Latch Fit I feel for you but I think you'll be just fine because that area usually gets faired over with glass to smooth the transition between the cabin top and the airframe. I would clean it up so its burr free and flat, then plan on filling it with flox, and then fair it into the airframe with balloons. It should hide that transition. Your biggest concern is making sure it's burr-free so you won't have any future cracking. (Though it looks to be stop drilled pretty well with that rivet). Just my thoughts on it. I think you'll be A-OK at the end of the project. Phil Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 29, 2015, at 8:50 PM, mhealydds wrote: > > > Had and accident tonight while fitting door pin guides for RV-10 door. While testing door latch fit, the front pin was not engaged as it should have been and slipped to side skin and torn it as shown in pictures. Any thoughts on a fix - quite disappointed in myself at the moment..... > > Matt > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445394#445394 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1161_196.jpg > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:34 PM PST US From: "David" Subject: RV10-List: airworthiness documentation What documents support airworthiness on an experimental aircraft? On the trip to KOSH I had a bird strike on landing (KDUX) in the right fuselage-wing intersection fairing. I ended up with a bit of stretched aluminum. Today I encountered the insurance adjustor who wanted to see the aircraft logbooks, my logbook (only number 6), my licenses (plus medical), the registration and the airworthiness paper. I had an aircraft log where the DAR had inspected and signed as airworthy and my signature signed for completion of phase one. Also in the aircraft documents I found an (DAR signed) 8130-6 and a checklist by the DAR again declaring it airworthy. All signatures were dated 4/1/2008. The online aircraft records also an airworthiness date of 4/1/2008. The insurance adjustor seemed to think that a separate card was required as is required for standard airworthiness. Since nobody I called seemed to know, I started taking opinions. Two IAs offered that "I don' know" and "card is definitely not required". EAA said it was definitely required but when the 20 something started to lecture me on ARROW I wrote off his opinion. Does anyone flying an RV10 have a post card from the FAA with airworthiness on it? It has been my understanding that the operating limitations and the logbook signoffs were sufficient for E-AB. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:05 PM PST US From: David Saylor Subject: Re: RV10-List: Crack with Door Latch Fit No big deal. I would drill out two rivets, make an .063 plate to span the three rivets adjacent to the pin block, and cover it up. Looks like the tear goes right to the rivet hole so you don't even need to stop-drill it. It may not be the last time that happens--it's happened to me a few times. As you see more 10s you'll see a lot of people addressed that problem. A stout doubler will keep a the tear from happening again. Another thing you might strongly consider is replacing the teflon guide blocks with aluminum pieces, same dimensions. --Dave On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 6:50 PM, mhealydds wrote: > > Had and accident tonight while fitting door pin guides for RV-10 door. > While testing door latch fit, the front pin was not engaged as it should > have been and slipped to side skin and torn it as shown in pictures. Any > thoughts on a fix - quite disappointed in myself at the moment..... > > Matt > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445394#445394 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_1161_196.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: airworthiness documentation From: Dj Merrill On 7/29/2015 10:21 PM, David wrote: > Today I encountered the insurance adjustor who wanted to see the > aircraft logbooks, my logbook (only number 6), my licenses (plus > medical), the registration and the airworthiness paper. I think he wants to see the postcard sized paper that is your Airworthiness Certificate and the associated Operating Limitations (mine are about 3 pages of typed sheets of paper). Both of these are required to be in the aircraft and visible, so most end up putting them in a clear plastic pouch of sorts and attaching them to the inside of the fuselage wall somewhere. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:54 PM PST US From: David Saylor Subject: Re: RV10-List: airworthiness documentation The DAR should have issued a Certificate of Airworthiness. It's pink (fades to gray...), same size as the standard cert. You can get a replacement from the FSDO. Fill out a form and they'll send you one. --Dave On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 7:21 PM, David wrote: > What documents support airworthiness on an experimental aircraft? On the > trip to KOSH I had a bird strike on landing (KDUX) in the right > fuselage-wing intersection fairing. I ended up with a bit of stretched > aluminum. Today I encountered the insurance adjustor who wanted to see th e > aircraft logbooks, my logbook (only number 6), my licenses (plus medical) , > the registration and the airworthiness paper. I had an aircraft log where > the DAR had inspected and signed as airworthy and my signature signed for > completion of phase one. Also in the aircraft documents I found an (DAR > signed) 8130-6 and a checklist by the DAR again declaring it airworthy. A ll > signatures were dated 4/1/2008. The online aircraft records also an > airworthiness date of 4/1/2008. The insurance adjustor seemed to think th at > a separate card was required as is required for standard airworthiness. > Since nobody I called seemed to know, I started taking opinions. Two IAs > offered that =9CI don=99 know=9D and =9Ccard is d efinitely not required=9D. EAA said > it was definitely required but when the 20 something started to lecture m e > on ARROW I wrote off his opinion. Does anyone flying an RV10 have a post > card from the FAA with airworthiness on it? It has been my understanding > that the operating limitations and the logbook signoffs were sufficient f or > E-AB. > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > * > =========== onics.com/Navigator?RV10-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: airworthiness documentation From: Dj Merrill On 7/29/2015 10:41 PM, Dj Merrill wrote: > the postcard sized paper that is your Airworthiness Certificate Here is a sample image that I found: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://tighar.org/smf/index.php%253Faction%253Ddlattach%253Btopic%253D524.0%253Battach%253D327&imgrefurl=https://tighar.org/smf/index.php?topic%3D524.0&h=481&w=741&tbnid=Pwv4VHjs41Zd5M:&docid=D7j3wIQ9I-VeoM&ei=W4-5VcCkAcfB-gGmz4WYCg&tbm=isch&ved=0CB0QMygAMABqFQoTCIC-ut3qgccCFcegPgodpmcBow If you don't have this in your plane then it technically isn't airworthy. -Dj -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87 Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/ Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:36 PM PST US From: Jim Beyer Subject: Re: RV10-List: airworthiness documentation Sorry to hear about the damage. Yes you need an airworthiness certificate=94not the 8130-6 but an 8130-7. You also need your operating limitations (a few page 8-1/2 x 11 sized document) . It won=99t be a standard airworthiness certificate, but a special airworthiness certificate with an experimental category. Attached is an example, albeit it from 1980, it=99s still the same today. I blacked out the info to protect the guilty. One other thing to consider is the registration expiration =94 if it was registered in April 2008, the five year term may have been up a couple months ago. Best, -Jim > On Jul 29, 2015, at 9:21 PM, David wrote: > > What documents support airworthiness on an experimental aircraft? On the trip to KOSH I had a bird strike on landing (KDUX) in the right fuselage-wing intersection fairing. I ended up with a bit of stretched aluminum. Today I encountered the insurance adjustor who wanted to see the aircraft logbooks, my logbook (only number 6), my licenses (plus medical), the registration and the airworthiness paper. I had an aircraft log where the DAR had inspected and signed as airworthy and my signature signed for completion of phase one. Also in the aircraft documents I found an (DAR signed) 8130-6 and a checklist by the DAR again declaring it airworthy. All signatures were dated 4/1/2008. The online aircraft records also an airworthiness date of 4/1/2008. The insurance adjustor seemed to think that a separate card was required as is required for standard airworthiness. Since nobody I called seemed to know, I started taking opinions. Two IAs offered that =9CI don =99 know=9D and =9Ccard is definitely not required=9D. EAA said it was definitely required but when the 20 something started to lecture me on ARROW I wrote off his opinion. Does anyone flying an RV10 have a post card from the FAA with airworthiness on it? It has been my understanding that the operating limitations and the logbook signoffs were sufficient for E-AB. > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:00 PM PST US From: Jesse Saint Subject: Re: RV10-List: airworthiness documentation The airplane must have a Special Airworthiness Certificate (peach colored ca rd) and Operating Limitations (Phase I and Phase II flit restrictions) as we ll as the other documents you mentioned you have. It obviously had one, so i t would be a matter of finding it or getting a new one from the local FSDO. Jesse Saint Saint Aviation, Inc. 352-427-0285 jesse@saintaviation.com Sent from my iPad > On Jul 29, 2015, at 10:21 PM, David wrote: > > What documents support airworthiness on an experimental aircraft? On the t rip to KOSH I had a bird strike on landing (KDUX) in the right fuselage-wing intersection fairing. I ended up with a bit of stretched aluminum. Today I e ncountered the insurance adjustor who wanted to see the aircraft logbooks, m y logbook (only number 6), my licenses (plus medical), the registration and t he airworthiness paper. I had an aircraft log where the DAR had inspected an d signed as airworthy and my signature signed for completion of phase one. A lso in the aircraft documents I found an (DAR signed) 8130-6 and a checklist by the DAR again declaring it airworthy. All signatures were dated 4/1/2008 . The online aircraft records also an airworthiness date of 4/1/2008. The in surance adjustor seemed to think that a separate card was required as is req uired for standard airworthiness. Since nobody I called seemed to know, I st arted taking opinions. Two IAs offered that =9CI don=99 know =9D and =9Ccard is definitely not required=9D. EAA said it was d efinitely required but when the 20 something started to lecture me on ARROW I wrote off his opinion. Does anyone flying an RV10 have a post card from the FAA with airworthiness on it? It has been my understanding that the operati ng limitations and the logbook signoffs were sufficient for E-AB. > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.