Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:25 AM - Re: First Flight Report (Dan Masys)
2. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: First Flight Report (Jesse Saint)
3. 03:22 PM - Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith (rvdave)
4. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith (Jesse Saint)
5. 03:57 PM - Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith (Bob Turner)
6. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith (Carl Froehlich)
7. 04:16 PM - Re: Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith (Tim Olson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight Report |
Agree with Tim and Jesse on the seating and preference for doing first
flights for others' RV aircraft alone; have done three of these recently and
it much reduces the cognitive load on the test pilot to do it alone.
For helping other pilots who are 'in the zone' to do their own first flight
there is a nice middle ground, and that is to put them in the left seat of
your own RV-10 (with you along in right seat) just before they loose the
surly bonds in their own bird. I did this for Brian Sutherland on the
morning of his first flight in his RV-10, going exactly the same route
orbiting the pattern that he intended to do, and having him do both the
takeoff and the landing as well as the cruise component. Even though my
avionics were a different brand than his, it helped with muscle memory and
eye-hand coordination to go fly a flight-proven RV-10 just before strapping
on his own for the first time.
Safe travels,
-Dan Masys
RV-10 N104LD 830 hrs
RV-12 N122LD 280 hrs
--------------
Time: 09:58:33 AM PST US
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: First Flight Report
From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I have to say that I think that the additional pilot program is kind of a
mixed bag too. There are to many factors to make a blanket statement as to
if I agree with everything, or not, or if I find it useful, and I actually
appreciate Jesse's position that he does the first flights alone. I'll give
you an example.
Pilot Builder has 125 hours, with almost nothing in RV-10's other than some
quick transition training, and many of the hours are not recent, as airplane
building took all the available time and money.
Other dude pilot, me, has over 1100 hours in RV10's.
With this in mind, who do you stick in the left seat, and who's going to be
the one at the controls?
From my perspective, I'd be happy to do a first flight FOR someone, but I'm
not all that interested in being subjected to the risk of being WITH
someone, if I'm not the one at the controls. Certainly, if something does
go wrong, a person would claim that they'd want the most experience, and
most current person at the controls, but in actual application, this isn't
necessarily what happens. What actually happens is that the guy with much
less experience wants to fly it, because he built it. Now, I do have great
respect for this, and I personally could not do it any other way. But I do
think that from a risk/safety perspective this isn't the best situation.
If I'm along in the plane, I want to be seated in the seat that I am most
comfortable to have the proper reactions and natural feel in, and I want to
be 100% responsible for the safety of the flight and getting the plane back
on the ground regardless of emergency situation. So while I am willing to
do a first flight, or even do a first flight with someone, I'm not willing
to just be a ride-along for a first flight unless the other person is
similar current and skilled...and honestly, if they were, they wouldn't be
asking me along in the
first place. And as far as having someone ride along
with you, I can tell you first hand that the most dangerous times I've had
probably, from an attention standpoint, are when you put two pilot friends
together in a cockpit. It's fine if you can strictly follow solid CRM, but
any extra chatter or communication just decreases safety.
So I think that the additional pilot program can actually promote safety,
but it may even do the opposite if not used properly, and builders need to
understand what they are asking for when they ask someone to go along as an
additional pilot.
Purely from the standpoint of the builder, sure, he may indeed be safer
having the highly qualified additional pilot with them, if they follow good
CRM, even with him at the controls. But, that isn't necessarily the safest
situation for that flight.
I'll have a first flight coming up again sometime in the next year, and I
would be the only one in the plane for that one, with or without the
program. I'd strongly encourage transition training for all people, and my
personal opinion is, if you get adequate transition training, and do enough
to be current, you really can have that dream of being the one to do your
own first flight if you want to.
You just have to put the time in beforehand.
Tim
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight Report |
There is one issue that has not been mentioned, but should be understood in all
of this. The fact of having flown another RV-10'that same morning or having had
transition training, etc is all fine IFF everything goes well with the flight.
The issue that comes into play is who is in charge, and what does the low-time
pilot do IF something goes wrong or doesn't fly the way it should. That is
when I want someone very comfortable in that model of plane, and preferably
relatively high-time, and possibly has time in several or more different planes
of the same model in control. This is the main reason that I do first flights
alone or I don't do them at all. I have flown at least 20+ different RV-10's,
and have almost 900 hours in them. I know how they feel and the different ranges
of "normal". If something doesn't feel right, I would like to think I can
tell when something doesn't feel right and maybe even tell what doesn't feel
right. This is something that a low-time pilot, and one with just transition training
will likely not be able to do. There are likely others who are MUCH more
qualified to do first flights than I am, but that is where the extra pilot
matrix comes to play for after the first flight.
Btw, before I will climb in any plane for a first flight, I go through all of the
critical items first, even if it takes a day or two, to make sure that I am
willing to put my life in it.
In a way, it's like riveting. Those of us who have built these planes can hear
when a river sets correctly. We can hear and feel in the rivet gun when the shop
head is correct. If you ask someone who is new to it, they will say (I have
done this lately) that they can't hear or feel any difference.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse@saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:21 AM, Dan Masys <dmasys@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Agree with Tim and Jesse on the seating and preference for doing first
> flights for others' RV aircraft alone; have done three of these recently and
> it much reduces the cognitive load on the test pilot to do it alone.
>
> For helping other pilots who are 'in the zone' to do their own first flight
> there is a nice middle ground, and that is to put them in the left seat of
> your own RV-10 (with you along in right seat) just before they loose the
> surly bonds in their own bird. I did this for Brian Sutherland on the
> morning of his first flight in his RV-10, going exactly the same route
> orbiting the pattern that he intended to do, and having him do both the
> takeoff and the landing as well as the cruise component. Even though my
> avionics were a different brand than his, it helped with muscle memory and
> eye-hand coordination to go fly a flight-proven RV-10 just before strapping
> on his own for the first time.
>
> Safe travels,
> -Dan Masys
> RV-10 N104LD 830 hrs
> RV-12 N122LD 280 hrs
>
> --------------
> Time: 09:58:33 AM PST US
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: First Flight Report
> From: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
>
> I have to say that I think that the additional pilot program is kind of a
> mixed bag too. There are to many factors to make a blanket statement as to
> if I agree with everything, or not, or if I find it useful, and I actually
> appreciate Jesse's position that he does the first flights alone. I'll give
> you an example.
>
> Pilot Builder has 125 hours, with almost nothing in RV-10's other than some
> quick transition training, and many of the hours are not recent, as airplane
> building took all the available time and money.
>
> Other dude pilot, me, has over 1100 hours in RV10's.
>
> With this in mind, who do you stick in the left seat, and who's going to be
> the one at the controls?
>
> From my perspective, I'd be happy to do a first flight FOR someone, but I'm
> not all that interested in being subjected to the risk of being WITH
> someone, if I'm not the one at the controls. Certainly, if something does
> go wrong, a person would claim that they'd want the most experience, and
> most current person at the controls, but in actual application, this isn't
> necessarily what happens. What actually happens is that the guy with much
> less experience wants to fly it, because he built it. Now, I do have great
> respect for this, and I personally could not do it any other way. But I do
> think that from a risk/safety perspective this isn't the best situation.
> If I'm along in the plane, I want to be seated in the seat that I am most
> comfortable to have the proper reactions and natural feel in, and I want to
> be 100% responsible for the safety of the flight and getting the plane back
> on the ground regardless of emergency situation. So while I am willing to
> do a first flight, or even do a first flight with someone, I'm not willing
> to just be a ride-along for a first flight unless the other person is
> similar current and skilled...and honestly, if they were, they wouldn't be
> asking me along in the
> first place. And as far as having someone ride along
> with you, I can tell you first hand that the most dangerous times I've had
> probably, from an attention standpoint, are when you put two pilot friends
> together in a cockpit. It's fine if you can strictly follow solid CRM, but
> any extra chatter or communication just decreases safety.
>
> So I think that the additional pilot program can actually promote safety,
> but it may even do the opposite if not used properly, and builders need to
> understand what they are asking for when they ask someone to go along as an
> additional pilot.
> Purely from the standpoint of the builder, sure, he may indeed be safer
> having the highly qualified additional pilot with them, if they follow good
> CRM, even with him at the controls. But, that isn't necessarily the safest
> situation for that flight.
>
> I'll have a first flight coming up again sometime in the next year, and I
> would be the only one in the plane for that one, with or without the
> program. I'd strongly encourage transition training for all people, and my
> personal opinion is, if you get adequate transition training, and do enough
> to be current, you really can have that dream of being the one to do your
> own first flight if you want to.
> You just have to put the time in beforehand.
>
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith |
I'm with nation air in a rv6, anyone care to share an example rv10 rate with nation
air?
--------
Dave Ford
RV6 for sale
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448020#448020
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith |
The rates won't vary much between brokers. An RV-10 with about $190-200k hull and
a low time pilot should run about $2,500. Same with high time pilot about $1,600-1,800
these days. Price will obviously vary with hull coverage.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse@saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 16, 2015, at 5:18 PM, rvdave <rv610dave@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm with nation air in a rv6, anyone care to share an example rv10 rate with
nation air?
>
> --------
> Dave Ford
> RV6 for sale
> RV10 building
> Cadillac, MI
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448020#448020
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith |
As Jesse says, NationAir is a broker. They represent you, and give you advice.
This past July NationAir recommended I go with USAIG.
Total premium $1630, similar coverage to first post except hull value $145K.
I'm commercial, IFR, CFII but also nearly 67 (no one will say it, but I think there
is an age bias above some secret number). 2500 hrTT, 200 hr in -10. No past
claims.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448023#448023
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith |
My current Nation Air policy issued May 1st is $1496 with $150K hull.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rvdave
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 6:18 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith
I'm with nation air in a rv6, anyone care to share an example rv10 rate with
nation air?
--------
Dave Ford
RV6 for sale
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448020#448020
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith |
My current policy has a bit higher hull value by 25k but my rate is only about
$225 more...and that was not my cheapest option...it was just the better of the
2 policies, so in theory I could be cheaper.
Tim
Do not archive
> On Oct 16, 2015, at 5:56 PM, Carl Froehlich <carl.froehlich@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> My current Nation Air policy issued May 1st is $1496 with $150K hull.
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rvdave
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 6:18 PM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: Re: Cheapest insurance policy yet --SkySmith
>
>
> I'm with nation air in a rv6, anyone care to share an example rv10 rate with
> nation air?
>
> --------
> Dave Ford
> RV6 for sale
> RV10 building
> Cadillac, MI
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448020#448020
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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