Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:38 AM - Re: Re: Seat question (Linn Walters)
2. 04:09 AM - $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (AirMike)
3. 05:29 AM - Re: Re: Seat question (Patrick Pulis)
4. 07:56 AM - Fw: The Oregon RV10 lawsuit (Miller John)
5. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Seat question (Bill Watson)
6. 11:39 AM - $35mil lawsuit (Danny Riggs)
7. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Seat question (Tim Olson)
8. 12:35 PM - $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Hugo)
9. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Seat question (Sean Stephens)
10. 02:18 PM - Re: Seat question (Bob Turner)
11. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Seat question (Ed Kranz)
12. 02:48 PM - $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Bob Turner)
13. 03:23 PM - Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Linn Walters)
14. 05:24 PM - Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause (Lyle Peterson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Seat question |
On 10/21/2015 9:50 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
> I did one of the rail mods some time ago and it's worth it's weight in
> gold now that I'm getting on to 5 years of flying and maintaining.
> However, I still labored at the T-handle removal and re-installation.
> I had read about how the stops could be modified for easy removal but
> I forgot about that and instead returned to the idea of nut plates on
> the T-handles.
>
> However, I ended up doing something slightly different. I used
> nutserts in the T-handle.
I drilled and tapped the T-handles.
Linn
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
Remember what William Shakespeare said.
--------
See you OSH '15
Q/B - flying 6 yrs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448180#448180
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Seat question |
Any pictures of your seat modifications please Bill?
Warm regards
Patrick
> On 22 Oct 2015, at 12:20, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> I did one of the rail mods some time ago and it's worth it's weight in gold now
that I'm getting on to 5 years of flying and maintaining. However, I still
labored at the T-handle removal and re-installation. I had read about how the
stops could be modified for easy removal but I forgot about that and instead
returned to the idea of nut plates on the T-handles.
>
> However, I ended up doing something slightly different. I used nutserts in the
T-handle.
>
> The only concern I observed after I did the first one is that nutsert are not
finished flush on the inserted face. It would work this way but there would
be a roughly 1/64" space between the T-handler and the seat frame.
>
> Turns out that if you install them 'backwards', they leave a flush fit for the
T-handle to mate with the seat frame. It also leaves a nicely finished face
on the outside edge... not that one ever really sees that edge.
>
> Now the T-handles can be removed and re-installed with a single powered screwdriver
using a single hand. That combined with the rail modification (trim the
plastic, not the aluminum) makes the whole operation much easier than stock.
>
> BTW, this was all done during the process of installing the PlaneAround 90degree
retrofit door latch. Not only do I feel safer, but this product fixed my
entire door installation that includes the IFLYRV10 flush billet door handles
and lock. There was excessive friction in the setup and I never could completely
latch the doors from the outside. Now it all works!
>
> Up to now, my RV10 passenger safety briefing consisted of "This is a fantastic
airplane, nothing to worry about but under no circumstances are you to touch
the doors - I open and close all doors at all times". Now I can say, " remember
this isn't car and it's not a car door so no slamming, just pull it down
and close the latch, Thank You"
>
> Bill "Door Victory at Last - but I need to refinish the )(*&$#@$@#*^ things again"
Watson
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Fwd: The Oregon RV10 lawsuit |
For the list, Scott has given me permission to forward his response to
my email to the entire list.
I suspect that Van would appreciate such additional support from the
rest of the RV10 owners.
You can send your comments to support@vansaircraft.com
<mailto:support@vansaircraft.com>. That=92s where I sent mine and Scott
is the one who answered.
grumpy
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: srisan@vansaircraft.com
> Subject: Re: The Oregon RV10 lawsuit
> Date: October 21, 2015 at 9:30:18 AM CDT
> To: Miller John <gengrumpy@aol.com>
>
> John, We very much appreciate your support. Suits like these can
really take the wind out of
> your sales. It's bad for us, it's bad for the industry and it's bad
for our economy and society.
> As you said, the NTSB 'probable cause' is very likely spot on for this
accident. It's sad that
> the loss of life and injuries could have been avoided so easily.
>
> Again, thanks for the support. I'll pass your email on to Van.
>
> Best,
> Scott Risan
> Van's Aircraft
>
>> Dear Dick and all of your employees,
>>
>> I read with dismay the lawsuit that was filed against your company
and FlowScan over the fatal RV10 crash in Oregon last year.
>>
>> After reading the actual court filed papers, it is obvious that these
lawyers are nothing but ambulance chasing crooks and are out to get a
big settlement from your insurance company.
>>
>> What a bunch of hogwash in their allegations. And to think it was
filed on behalf of the deceased pilot/builder=B4s daughter-in-law makes
it both sad and unbelievable. The NTSB pictures of the installation
tell the story loud and clear that he neither followed the plans for
installation of the fuel system nor understood how to put fuel lines
together.
>>
>> I am one of your early RV10 builders, and am now building an RV8.
Your kits, and the engineering work behind them, are absolutely the best
as is your customer service and tech support.
>>
>> I hope that you can withstand this frivolous lawsuit without too much
pain.
>>
>> There are thousands of happy RV builders world-wide who support you
100%!
>>
>> If you need support from an "amateur" builder, please call on me!
>>
>> John Miller
>> Tullahoma, TN
>>
>> RV10 40404
>> RV8 83329
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Seat question |
Here is a photo and description of the T-handle mod My Kitlog - T-Handle
Seat Mod
<http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=mauledriver&project=224&category=7984&log=216267&row=1>
I don't have any photos of the rail mod which I did a few years ago per
postings here or on Vans Airforce. Some have ground away part of the
aluminum rail. The alternative I took was to cut out part of the front
of the plastic runners. A little bit of aluminum may have to be removed
as well but I don't think so. Sorry I don't exactly recall. In either
case, it allow the seat to slide out without have to touch the flap
actuation cover... or the carpet that it may be covered with
It's all back together now but if I can take a meaningful pic, I will.
Bill "Finally happy with seat removal and installation but it's still a
back breaker" Watson
On 10/22/2015 8:25 AM, Patrick Pulis wrote:
>
> Any pictures of your seat modifications please Bill?
>
> Warm regards
>
> Patrick
>
>> On 22 Oct 2015, at 12:20, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I did one of the rail mods some time ago and it's worth it's weight in gold
now that I'm getting on to 5 years of flying and maintaining. However, I still
labored at the T-handle removal and re-installation. I had read about how the
stops could be modified for easy removal but I forgot about that and instead
returned to the idea of nut plates on the T-handles.
>>
>> However, I ended up doing something slightly different. I used nutserts in
the T-handle.
>>
>> The only concern I observed after I did the first one is that nutsert are not
finished flush on the inserted face. It would work this way but there would
be a roughly 1/64" space between the T-handler and the seat frame.
>>
>> Turns out that if you install them 'backwards', they leave a flush fit for
the T-handle to mate with the seat frame. It also leaves a nicely finished face
on the outside edge... not that one ever really sees that edge.
>>
>> Now the T-handles can be removed and re-installed with a single powered screwdriver
using a single hand. That combined with the rail modification (trim the
plastic, not the aluminum) makes the whole operation much easier than stock.
>>
>> BTW, this was all done during the process of installing the PlaneAround 90degree
retrofit door latch. Not only do I feel safer, but this product fixed my
entire door installation that includes the IFLYRV10 flush billet door handles
and lock. There was excessive friction in the setup and I never could completely
latch the doors from the outside. Now it all works!
>>
>> Up to now, my RV10 passenger safety briefing consisted of "This is a fantastic
airplane, nothing to worry about but under no circumstances are you to touch
the doors - I open and close all doors at all times". Now I can say, " remember
this isn't car and it's not a car door so no slamming, just pull it down
and close the latch, Thank You"
>>
>> Bill "Door Victory at Last - but I need to refinish the )(*&$#@$@#*^ things
again" Watson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
Message 6
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Saw this hat and couldn't resist buying it. I was sitting in Bubba's on Kaua
i reading about the lawsuit when I saw this hat.
Sent from my iPhone
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Seat question |
Hey Bill,
Regarding the Nutserts, is there any worry about the nutserts
pulling through the hole? It seems to me that if they slid
out, the whole thing falls apart, and they wouldn't be as strong
as having something on the outer face to hold that bolt that
can't pull through. But I haven't installed any in years.
The ones I did were aluminum and didn't seem ultra strong.
Also, if they are aluminum, then maybe just going up a size in
bolt would work, and drill and tap the holes in the T-Handle
bracket? A risky proposition for cost if it gets messed
up, is the bigger worry. Plus the threads would eventually
wear a lot after many removals. I think ideally, someone
would make a nutsert with integral external hex flange/locknut.
That would take care of all worries.
Tim
On 10/22/2015 12:29 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
> Here is a photo and description of the T-handle mod My Kitlog - T-Handle
> Seat Mod
> <http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=mauledriver&project=224&category=7984&log=216267&row=1>
>
> I don't have any photos of the rail mod which I did a few years ago per
> postings here or on Vans Airforce. Some have ground away part of the
> aluminum rail. The alternative I took was to cut out part of the front
> of the plastic runners. A little bit of aluminum may have to be removed
> as well but I don't think so. Sorry I don't exactly recall. In either
> case, it allow the seat to slide out without have to touch the flap
> actuation cover... or the carpet that it may be covered with
>
> It's all back together now but if I can take a meaningful pic, I will.
>
> Bill "Finally happy with seat removal and installation but it's still a
> back breaker" Watson
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
For those nice persons in these (still ) beautiful country who trying to make the
Lawyers disappear ,please remember .
Millions years ago the life in this planet start as a Amoeba
Few thousands years ago they mutate and became lawyers in the Greek congress ,and
in the Roman Empire.(both not longer exist)
In modern times they dictate the laws,determine what progress can be done
Or make a nice company disappear
HOW WE THINKS WE CAN BE FREE OF THAT SPECIES of PARASITES
My two cents
--------
My wife it's always right
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448193#448193
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Seat question |
Note that if you do the mod to make the rear rail stop removable, i.e.
nutplates for it's attach bolts, then there's no reason to ever have to
remove the t-handles.
I did that mod plus the removal of the front portion of the of the
delrin (or whatever it is) under the slide. Seats come out in a couple
minutes.
-Sean #40303 (trying to figure out why XM weather quit receiving)
> Tim Olson <mailto:Tim@MyRV10.com>
> October 22, 2015 at 1:55 PM
>
> Hey Bill,
> Regarding the Nutserts, is there any worry about the nutserts
> pulling through the hole? It seems to me that if they slid
> out, the whole thing falls apart, and they wouldn't be as strong
> as having something on the outer face to hold that bolt that
> can't pull through. But I haven't installed any in years.
> The ones I did were aluminum and didn't seem ultra strong.
> Also, if they are aluminum, then maybe just going up a size in
> bolt would work, and drill and tap the holes in the T-Handle
> bracket? A risky proposition for cost if it gets messed
> up, is the bigger worry. Plus the threads would eventually
> wear a lot after many removals. I think ideally, someone
> would make a nutsert with integral external hex flange/locknut.
> That would take care of all worries.
> Tim
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Seat question |
Since the load is nearly all shear, I would think this is okay if you only torque
the bolts to the lower, shear load spec; this is unlikely to pull the insert
thru. But if it does happen, eventually the bolt threads will bottom out and
the bolt will have no pre-load. I note that you have to go to a shorter length
bolt (or washers under the bolt head) so that the threaded area now carries
part of the shear load, instead of 100% on the shank as in the original design.
Again, not quite as strong as the original design. I think you should try to
get at least some of the shank into the hole in the latch piece. In a typical
crash (moving forward) the seat belt will carry the imposed loads, so the latch
is really not that important. Unless you spin around 180 degres and then suddenly
stop. I have no idea if even the original design can carry your weight
plus the seat times 10(?)(g).
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448198#448198
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Seat question |
This is what I did. Seat out in about 2 minutes. Just need a socket on an
extension to get to the bolts between the sidewall and the seat. Works
great!
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Sean Stephens <sean@stephensville.com>
wrote:
>
> Note that if you do the mod to make the rear rail stop removable, i.e.
> nutplates for it's attach bolts, then there's no reason to ever have to
> remove the t-handles.
>
> I did that mod plus the removal of the front portion of the of the delrin
> (or whatever it is) under the slide. Seats come out in a couple minutes.
>
> -Sean #40303 (trying to figure out why XM weather quit receiving)
>
>
>>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
Lawyer-bashing is easy, and kind of fun, but let's not forget that every crazy
award was handed out by 'a jury of our peers'.
As Pogo famously said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Returning sanity to the legal process is both simple and hard.
Simple: allow defendants the right to insist on a bench trial.
Hard: that would take a constitutional amendment.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448200#448200
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
I queried the AYA Safety Director .... knowledgeable in many aviation
matters and here's answer:
One comment was that NTSB accident investigation data is not admissible
in court. Is this true?
[Levy] Sort of. Factual information gathered by NTSB investigators is admissible.
Conclusions based on that information are not -- the jury draws its own conclusions.
Should be a slam-dunk with those pictures. But the lawyers still come out on top.
Linn
On 10/20/2015 4:39 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
>
> flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com wrote:
>> On 10/20/2015 2:33 PM, bruceflys wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> NTSB reports are not admissible in court.
>>> I did not know that.
>>>
>> Can you direct me to where you found that???
>> Linn
>
> I do not have a reference but I'm pretty sure this is correct. NTSB didn't want
the cost of getting involved, so Congress specifically exempted their findings
from being used in civil lawsuits. The lawyers have to duplicate the findings
at their own expense (that is, the clients' expense).
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448141#448141
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
Admissibility of NTSB reports depends. Basically federal laws says,
"No." However the courts have determined that depending on the source
of the information, how it is delivered to the court and what part of
the report it is contained in the NTSB report may be admissible while
other parts would be considered hearsay.
More information and discussion can be found at:
http://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/committees/masstorts/articles/summer2013-0813-crash-reports-what-will-jury-hear.html
and
http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/articles/ntsb/
I searched for "NTSB findings admissible in court"
There are many discussions and interesting cases. Many are in PDF form
and with all the click thru links attached and other nonsense the link
becomes unmanageable. The PDF file will download to your computer to be
viewed in Adobe Reader.
For those interested.
Lyle
On 10/22/2015 5:20 PM, Linn Walters wrote:
>
> I queried the AYA Safety Director .... knowledgeable in many aviation
> matters and here's answer:
>
> One comment was that NTSB accident investigation data is not admissible
> in court. Is this true?
>
> [Levy] Sort of. Factual information gathered by NTSB investigators is
> admissible. Conclusions based on that information are not -- the jury
> draws its own conclusions.
>
> Should be a slam-dunk with those pictures. But the lawyers still come
> out on top.
> Linn
>
>
> On 10/20/2015 4:39 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>>
>>
>> flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com wrote:
>>> On 10/20/2015 2:33 PM, bruceflys wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> NTSB reports are not admissible in court.
>>>> I did not know that.
>>>>
>>> Can you direct me to where you found that???
>>> Linn
>>
>> I do not have a reference but I'm pretty sure this is correct. NTSB
>> didn't want the cost of getting involved, so Congress specifically
>> exempted their findings from being used in civil lawsuits. The
>> lawyers have to duplicate the findings at their own expense (that is,
>> the clients' expense).
>>
>> --------
>> Bob Turner
>> RV-10 QB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448141#448141
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>
>>
>
>
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