---------------------------------------------------------- RV10-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/27/16: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:20 AM - Re: Re: Numbers (Bill Watson) 2. 05:26 AM - Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Carlos Trigo) 3. 06:15 AM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Linn Walters) 4. 06:21 AM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Werner Schneider) 5. 06:46 AM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Kelly McMullen) 6. 07:07 AM - Re: Re: Numbers (Kelly McMullen) 7. 07:29 AM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Flysrv10) 8. 07:35 AM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Stein Bruch) 9. 07:44 AM - Re: Re: Numbers (Werner Schneider) 10. 08:05 AM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Rene) 11. 08:30 AM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Carl Froehlich) 12. 08:44 AM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Tim Olson) 13. 11:11 AM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Bob Turner) 14. 11:30 AM - Flap/Fuse Interference (Phillip Perry) 15. 11:33 AM - Re: Flap/Fuse Interference (Phillip Perry) 16. 12:19 PM - Re: Flap/Fuse Interference (Carl Froehlich) 17. 12:29 PM - Re: Flap/Fuse Interference (Gary Specketer) 18. 12:32 PM - Re: Re: Flap/Fuse Interference (RV10@TEXASRV10.COM) 19. 02:30 PM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Carl Froehlich) 20. 02:58 PM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Linn Walters) 21. 04:54 PM - Re: Flap/Fuse Interference (Rick Lark) 22. 07:21 PM - Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand (Danny Riggs) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Numbers From: Bill Watson I thought there general requirement to specify Vne in IAS for certified planes is because many planes did not have direct TAS instrumentation. I assume that any inaccuracies resulting from density effects are reflected in conservative Vne figures. We all want the freedom to build the way we want them. I'd be very hesitant to publish such numbers given my lack of control over the product. Bill "just thinking out loud" On 1/26/2016 11:31 PM, Bob Turner wrote: > I've read the white paper. It contains a certain amount of nonsense. > Flutter depends on TAS and air density. IAS depends on TAS and > density. So between TAS, IAS, and density one can choose any two to > express the equations. For example, with lift, we often choose IAS and > density, because the density magically drops out of the equations. > Does this mean lift doesn't depend on density? Of course not. It's > included in just the right way in the definition of IAS. Now with > flutter, there are many possible modes, and the relationship between > density and TAS varies from one mode to the next. So it is not > possible to define it away for all cases. You need, in general, two > variables. It is not correct to say "flutter depends on (only) TAS". > This business of higher than standard power is a red herring. Any > standard -10, when light, can climb well into the flight levels. Nose > it over to come down, and you can easily get as high a speed as > desired. I would like to know, whether thru analysis or testing, where > certain airspeeds (IAS or TAS) AND densities need to be observed as > limiting. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452335#452335 > http://www.matronics.com/contribution --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:23 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand Guys I would like to hear your opinions about the EFIS systems and brands which are NOW in the market for an RV-10. Of course there are many factors, like quality, price, support, system integration, features and so on, in this or another order. About the system I mean number of displays, single or double AHRS, integrated radio and/or transponder, integrated GPS and ADS-B, integrated auto-pilot, etc. About brand, you know. But if you were to choose now which EFIS brand and system to put in your RV-10, what would you choose? (I know it depends on how much $ you can spend, but just wondering what is the current situation) Regards Carlos --- Este e-mail foi verificado em termos de v=C3=ADrus pelo software antiv=C3 =ADrus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand From: Linn Walters Whoa!!! I think you'd be better off asking about primer ...... ;-) I can only offer my choice and reasons for it. I went with MGL (http://mglavionics.co.za/) ..... probably too early in my build, since there's been a lot of new models to choose from. There were two main selling points ..... the ability to customize my screens (there are 9 of them) and the RDAC which mounts inside the engine compartment and gathers all the engine sensor data so only three #22 wires go through the firewall. I chose the Odyssey 10" panel because I'm old and don't see as well as I used to. GPS, autopilot, AOA, altitude encoder..... everything but radios, transponder, compass and AHRS is integrated into that panel. CAN bus, RS-232 and 'airtalk' communicate with external boxes. I chose to make the two panels 'independent' with their own compass and AHRS which cost a little more than backup round gauges. My panel is removable as you see it here with harness plugs on the far right and left using a combination of 'D' and Molex connectors. I can power it up on the bench and install new equipment if needed. They also have autopilot servos that will handle the stiff RV-10 elevator. The downside ...... Rainier, the chief designer, is pretty much a 'one man shop' ..... there are others working there .... so new products are 'his' designs, and there may be a long wait for 'bugs' to be fixed .... especially in the older product lines. If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer. Here's a pic of my panel ...... The only thing missing is the Trig transponder which is below the left radio. Lots of progress made since this pic was taken. Good luck with your decision ..... it's a tough choice for all of us. Make sure your panel meets the 'mission requirements'. Linn On 1/27/2016 8:22 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote: > > Guys > > I would like to hear your opinions about the EFIS systems and brands > which are NOW in the market for an RV-10. > > Of course there are many factors, like quality, price, support, system > integration, features and so on, in this or another order > > About the system I mean number of displays, single or double AHRS, > integrated radio and/or transponder, integrated GPS and ADS-B, > integrated auto-pilot, etc. > > About brand, you know > > But if you were to choose now which EFIS brand and system to put in > your RV-10, what would you choose? > > (I know it depends on how much $ you can spend, but just wondering > what is the current situation) > > Regards > > Carlos > > > Este e-mail foi enviado a partir de um computador sem vrus protegido > pela Avast. > www.avast.com > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand From: Werner Schneider Carlos, I recommend you visit the Aero end of April and look at them. The big 4 in Experimental today are probably: Garmin G3X Advanced Flight Systems Dynon Skyview Grand Rapid Technologies Prices depends on screen size and features. Garmin and Dynon have their integrated COM/transponder and AP, AFS could meanwhile probably have as well the Dynon parts integrated. AFS and GRT do integrate very well with TruTrak as AP. You need to take cost wise into account what the database will cost you yearly (as for Europe this is extra cost). Find out what you want to achieve, what is your mission, what is your budget, what is a must feature wise, what is nice to have, put it in a spreadsheet compare prices (do not forget the extras) then goto the aero ask questions and play with the interface to see which one you're comfortable most. my 2 cents :) On 27.01.2016 14:22, Carlos Trigo wrote: > Guys > > I would like to hear your opinions about the EFIS systems and brands > which are NOW in the market for an RV-10. > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand From: Kelly McMullen You will find most of us favoring whatever brand we selected. I tend to think of MGL as a minor player, not what I would want for major support. I dislike Garmin for many reasons, but others love them. My three favorites that I debated over were Dynon, AFS and GRT. For what I wanted at the time autopilot was 4-5K extra for AFS and GRT because you needed a separate 3rd party unit. I think they have since integrated something into their software. Acquisition cost and features will be one factor. Database cost and repairs cost will be the other main players. I frankly don't know how Garmin handles that with the G3X system. I would hope it would be better than with their other product lines like portables and certified panel mounts, where you pay a big flat rate fee regardless of what you need fixed. I have been very happy with Dynon's upgrades, largely to meet customer requests. Their "free" database updates and pay for IFR charts approach works for me, but I'm sure there are other reasonable alternatives. You need to spend time at an airshow where vendors are displaying, and ask more about costs and support, and less about features. They all have most features you want, but ease of use and figuring them out takes time to assess, and several subsequent visits to learn what you missed the first time. If you are outside the US, costs, data update sources and costs will all matter. On 1/27/2016 6:22 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote: > Guys > > I would like to hear your opinions about the EFIS systems and brands > which are NOW in the market for an RV-10. > > Of course there are many factors, like quality, price, support, system > integration, features and so on, in this or another order > > About the system I mean number of displays, single or double AHRS, > integrated radio and/or transponder, integrated GPS and ADS-B, > integrated auto-pilot, etc. > > About brand, you know > > But if you were to choose now which EFIS brand and system to put in your > RV-10, what would you choose? > > (I know it depends on how much $ you can spend, but just wondering what > is the current situation) > > Regards > > Carlos > > > Este e-mail foi enviado a partir de um computador sem vrus protegido > pela Avast. > www.avast.com > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Numbers From: Kelly McMullen Seems like a few facts are muddled in this discussion. 1. True airspeed is a direct function of density altitude, there is no independent variable. 2. Flutter is a direct function of TAS, as the speed of air over the control surface induces a certain harmonic frequency. 3. Most aircraft can exceed Vne or design flutter speed in a dive. Some turbo charged aircraft and higher power normally aspirated aircraft can exceed Vne in level flight. That is what Vans was concerned about. 4. Virtually all turbine aircraft have a "barber pole" speed that is their limit for given density altitude. Above certain altitude it becomes a mach number. Same exact concept, just at higher speeds. The do not exceed speed varies substantially as they go higher. There are ways to increase the design flutter speed by upgrading control surfaces. I don't know much about that beyond weight and stiffness of the surface, along with counter balancing are factors. On 1/27/2016 6:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > > I thought there general requirement to specify Vne in IAS for certified > planes is because many planes did not have direct TAS instrumentation. > > I assume that any inaccuracies resulting from density effects are > reflected in conservative Vne figures. > > We all want the freedom to build the way we want them. I'd be very > hesitant to publish such numbers given my lack of control over the product. > > Bill "just thinking out loud" > > On 1/26/2016 11:31 PM, Bob Turner wrote: >> I've read the white paper. It contains a certain amount of nonsense. >> Flutter depends on TAS and air density. IAS depends on TAS and >> density. So between TAS, IAS, and density one can choose any two to >> express the equations. For example, with lift, we often choose IAS and >> density, because the density magically drops out of the equations. >> Does this mean lift doesn't depend on density? Of course not. It's >> included in just the right way in the definition of IAS. Now with >> flutter, there are many possible modes, and the relationship between >> density and TAS varies from one mode to the next. So it is not >> possible to define it away for all cases. You need, in general, two >> variables. It is not correct to say "flutter depends on (only) TAS". >> This business of higher than standard power is a red herring. Any >> standard -10, when light, can climb well into the flight levels. Nose >> it over to come down, and you can easily get as high a speed as >> desired. I would like to know, whether thru analysis or testing, where >> certain airspeeds (IAS or TAS) AND densities need to be observed as >> limiting. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452335#452335 >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:17 AM PST US From: Flysrv10 Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand Add Aspen to the list. They will or already have an experimental version. Do not archive. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 27, 2016, at 9:17 AM, Werner Schneider wrote: > > > Carlos, > > I recommend you visit the Aero end of April and look at them. > > The big 4 in Experimental today are probably: > > Garmin G3X > Advanced Flight Systems > Dynon Skyview > Grand Rapid Technologies > > Prices depends on screen size and features. > > Garmin and Dynon have their integrated COM/transponder and AP, AFS could meanwhile probably have as well the Dynon parts integrated. > AFS and GRT do integrate very well with TruTrak as AP. > > You need to take cost wise into account what the database will cost you yearly (as for Europe this is extra cost). > > Find out what you want to achieve, what is your mission, what is your budget, what is a must feature wise, what is nice to have, put it in a spreadsheet compare prices (do not forget the extras) then goto the aero > ask questions and play with the interface to see which one you're comfortable most. > > my 2 cents :) > >> On 27.01.2016 14:22, Carlos Trigo wrote: >> Guys >> >> I would like to hear your opinions about the EFIS systems and brands >> which are NOW in the market for an RV-10. > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:06 AM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand Oh Carlos =93 what a great question to which there is literally no single answer! If you get a chance and can give me a shout, we can chat and figure out some of the things that are specific to you that=99ll make the decision easier.things like flight mission, experience, budget, timeline, so on and so forth. What much of it comes down to anymore is =9Cred car or blue car=9D or =9CToyota vs. Honda=9D. What you=99ll get is most people think their child is the prettiest, and most people will vehemently defend their choice (good or bad), which is a good thing but not entirely helpful for neophytes. What I will tell you from the perspective of selling more of these than pretty much anyone else is that 99% of EFIS sales in the RV-10 are focused on Dynon and Garmin. Both are practically the same price, offer very similar functionality, a similar sizes. Other options are still available, but the reality is that Dynon and Garmin have solidified the horse race as two excellent choices. The others aren=99t necessarily bad =93 we=99re just talking different levels of good here, but both Dynon and Garmin obviously are putting a whole lot of energy behind continued development, support and functionality growth. Just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 7:23 AM Subject: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand Guys I would like to hear your opinions about the EFIS systems and brands which are NOW in the market for an RV-10. Of course there are many factors, like quality, price, support, system integration, features and so on, in this or another order About the system I mean number of displays, single or double AHRS, integrated radio and/or transponder, integrated GPS and ADS-B, integrated auto-pilot, etc. About brand, you know But if you were to choose now which EFIS brand and system to put in your RV-10, what would you choose? (I know it depends on how much $ you can spend, but just wondering what is the current situation) Regards Carlos Este e-mail foi enviado a partir de um computador sem v=C3=ADrus protegido pela Avast. www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Numbers From: Werner Schneider Bob, you always could convert the TAS to a IAS/Altitude table if you want, the beauty of having it in TAS (and maybe your EFIS can display this as well), is that wherever you fly your limit will be correct. I myself prefer it that way instead of looking at a table buried on the lower left panel like in a Cirrus. my 2 cents Werner On 27.01.2016 02:18, Bob Turner wrote: > > I'm sure Vans' lawyers are telling him to never say anything, but I do wish the company was a little more forth-coming. Was the prototype dived to some speed? At what altitude (surely higher than sea level)? This whole business of specifying Vne as a TAS, when the FARs require specifying it (along with altitudes, if necessary) in IAS for normally certified aircraft, just bothers me. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:32 AM PST US From: "Rene" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand I agree with others..all answers are tainted by what we have already chosen. Stein built my panel many years ago and I went with GRT.. I love the GRT and have upgraded my screens since I first flew back in 2008. One of my design goals was to distribute the =9Dprocessing=9D to avoid single point hardware and SOFTWARE failures. So as much as the one box does everything approach looks like the best solution, I would still worry about a single point failure..what do you have left. So my system is currently 2 screen GRT system (6.5 in HX) 1 GRT sport Garmin 430w Trutrak Autopilot The auto pilot can be commanded from the Garmin, 2 screen GRT, or Sport. The sport has its own GPS and ADHRS.true fully mission capable backup. The trutrak autopilot is great. Just my opinion with no real experience with other systems. I think it is a GREAT idea to call Stein and work through your requirements. Over the years he has helped me greatly. Just to put in a plug.he also sells bits and pieces you will need via his web site. (steinair.com) Rene' 801-721-6080 From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 8:30 AM Subject: RE: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand Oh Carlos =93 what a great question to which there is literally no single answer! If you get a chance and can give me a shout, we can chat and figure out some of the things that are specific to you that=99ll make the decision easier.things like flight mission, experience, budget, timeline, so on and so forth. What much of it comes down to anymore is =9Cred car or blue car=9D or =9CToyota vs. Honda=9D. What you=99ll get is most people think their child is the prettiest, and most people will vehemently defend their choice (good or bad), which is a good thing but not entirely helpful for neophytes. What I will tell you from the perspective of selling more of these than pretty much anyone else is that 99% of EFIS sales in the RV-10 are focused on Dynon and Garmin. Both are practically the same price, offer very similar functionality, a similar sizes. Other options are still available, but the reality is that Dynon and Garmin have solidified the horse race as two excellent choices. The others aren=99t necessarily bad =93 we=99re just talking different levels of good here, but both Dynon and Garmin obviously are putting a whole lot of energy behind continued development, support and functionality growth. Just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 7:23 AM Subject: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand Guys I would like to hear your opinions about the EFIS systems and brands which are NOW in the market for an RV-10. Of course there are many factors, like quality, price, support, system integration, features and so on, in this or another order About the system I mean number of displays, single or double AHRS, integrated radio and/or transponder, integrated GPS and ADS-B, integrated auto-pilot, etc. About brand, you know But if you were to choose now which EFIS brand and system to put in your RV-10, what would you choose? (I know it depends on how much $ you can spend, but just wondering what is the current situation) Regards Carlos https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/logo-avast-v1.png Este e-mail foi enviado a partir de um computador sem v=C3=ADrus protegido pela Avast. www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:21 AM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand Carlos, All good comments. Some additional thoughts: The three major players are Dynon, Garmin (the experimental side only!), and Grand Rapids. These are the companies that have established solid foundations for their business so you have some confidence they will be around for the long run. I did not list Advanced as they are now owned by Dynon. Even though Dynon sells and supports the Advanced line I don't see how they can support two such similar products for such a small market. In other words I expect the Advance line to be phased out at some point. For system elements, this is 100% dependent on your mission. If you are flying IFR then you should have: - Two 10" displays with integrated traffic and weather displays (ADS-B in and TIS) - Two ADHARS modules (and a system that automatically compares the modules to detect faults) - Mode S transponder with ADS-B out capability - Two axis autopilot A lot of problems are solved if you go with one vendor for everything. >From this you can do the apples to bananas comparisons. Do three full system cost calculations then decide which provides you the best capability/cost value. Do not ignore the total cost of ownership (Garmin flat rate charges, Garmin database subscriptions compared to Dynon's free for life, etc). Let us know what decision you make and why - this is the fastest moving element of the experimental market and new views are always worth the time to review. Carl Full Dynon SkyView install (dual 10" displays, transponder, radio, ADS-B in/out, Autopilot) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:42 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand You will find most of us favoring whatever brand we selected. I tend to think of MGL as a minor player, not what I would want for major support. I dislike Garmin for many reasons, but others love them. My three favorites that I debated over were Dynon, AFS and GRT. For what I wanted at the time autopilot was 4-5K extra for AFS and GRT because you needed a separate 3rd party unit. I think they have since integrated something into their software. Acquisition cost and features will be one factor. Database cost and repairs cost will be the other main players. I frankly don't know how Garmin handles that with the G3X system. I would hope it would be better than with their other product lines like portables and certified panel mounts, where you pay a big flat rate fee regardless of what you need fixed. I have been very happy with Dynon's upgrades, largely to meet customer requests. Their "free" database updates and pay for IFR charts approach works for me, but I'm sure there are other reasonable alternatives. You need to spend time at an airshow where vendors are displaying, and ask more about costs and support, and less about features. They all have most features you want, but ease of use and figuring them out takes time to assess, and several subsequent visits to learn what you missed the first time. If you are outside the US, costs, data update sources and costs will all matter. On 1/27/2016 6:22 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote: > Guys > > I would like to hear your opinions about the EFIS systems and brands > which are NOW in the market for an RV-10. > > Of course there are many factors, like quality, price, support, system > integration, features and so on, in this or another order > > About the system I mean number of displays, single or double AHRS, > integrated radio and/or transponder, integrated GPS and ADS-B, > integrated auto-pilot, etc. > > About brand, you know > > But if you were to choose now which EFIS brand and system to put in > your RV-10, what would you choose? > > (I know it depends on how much $ you can spend, but just wondering > what is the current situation) > > Regards > > Carlos > > > Este e-mail foi enviado a partir de um computador sem vrus protegido > pela Avast. > www.avast.com > campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand From: Tim Olson Definitely just call Stein and work through the decision process with him. Also, actually BUY your system from him. As some people are finding out with the RV-14, he's got the right in's for backend support and can accomplish things other vendors can't. So when you need something later, you'll have him as a resource. But it's a two way street...be nice to your vendor and they will bend over backwards for you. He's been the best vendor that came through for many many customers left hanging in the past. Tim On 1/27/2016 10:02 AM, Rene wrote: > I agree with others..all answers are tainted by what we have already > chosen. Stein built my panel many years ago and I went with GRT.. > > I love the GRT and have upgraded my screens since I first flew back in 2008. > > One of my design goals was to distribute the processing to avoid > single point hardware and SOFTWARE failures. So as much as the one box > does everything approach looks like the best solution, I would still > worry about a single point failure..what do you have left. > > So my system is currently > > 2 screen GRT system (6.5 in HX) > > 1 GRT sport > > Garmin 430w > > Trutrak Autopilot > > The auto pilot can be commanded from the Garmin, 2 screen GRT, or > Sport. The sport has its own GPS and ADHRS.true fully mission capable > backup. > > The trutrak autopilot is great. > > Just my opinion with no real experience with other systems. > > I think it is a GREAT idea to call Stein and work through your > requirements. Over the years he has helped me greatly. Just to put in a > plug.he also sells bits and pieces you will need via his web site. > (steinair.com) > > Rene' > > 801-721-6080 > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:18 AM PST US Subject: RV10-List: Re: Choosing an EFIS system and brand From: "Bob Turner" I'm with Rene on this one - without really knowing what the software is doing, I fear a single failure freezing everything. So I have a pair of GRTs; a Dynon D6 backup which is not connected to anything else; Trio Pro autopilot which can stand alone or run thru the GRTs; Garmin 420W and SL-30 so nav functions are not all in one box. It does all integrate well thru the GRT system but can stand alone if need be. Just my two cents. -------- Bob Turner RV-10 QB Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452362#452362 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:53 AM PST US From: Phillip Perry Subject: RV10-List: Flap/Fuse Interference I'm in the process of rigging the ailerons, etc. In the process of setting the ailerons, you have to set the flap first. In the process of setting the flap, I noticed that I have interference between the inboard section of the flap and the fuselage side skin. (Photo attached) Obviously I'm going to have to file down the edge of the flap to be able to get the full range of motion without interference. However, my question is 'how much'? When the flaps are fully retracted. (Inboard nose of the flap solidly against the rear spar doubler, how much of a gap do you have exposed to the naked eye? Thanks, Phil Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:40 AM PST US From: Phillip Perry Subject: RV10-List: Re: Flap/Fuse Interference With attachment this time... Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 27, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: > > I'm in the process of rigging the ailerons, etc. In the process of settin g the ailerons, you have to set the flap first. > > In the process of setting the flap, I noticed that I have interference bet ween the inboard section of the flap and the fuselage side skin. (Photo att ached) > > Obviously I'm going to have to file down the edge of the flap to be able t o get the full range of motion without interference. > > However, my question is 'how much'? > > When the flaps are fully retracted. (Inboard nose of the flap solidly agai nst the rear spar doubler, how much of a gap do you have exposed to the nake d eye? > > Thanks, > Phil > > Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:46 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Flap/Fuse Interference Yep - file as needed. You don't need much clearance, say 1/16" or so. That way it will still clear after paint. Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillip Perry Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 2:27 PM Subject: RV10-List: Flap/Fuse Interference I'm in the process of rigging the ailerons, etc. In the process of setting the ailerons, you have to set the flap first. In the process of setting the flap, I noticed that I have interference between the inboard section of the flap and the fuselage side skin. (Photo attached) Obviously I'm going to have to file down the edge of the flap to be able to get the full range of motion without interference. However, my question is 'how much'? When the flaps are fully retracted. (Inboard nose of the flap solidly against the rear spar doubler, how much of a gap do you have exposed to the naked eye? Thanks, Phil Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flap/Fuse Interference From: Gary Specketer It doesn't need to be much. Just enough to allow you to paint and still have clearance. I would leave 3/16 before paint. Gary SPECKETER > On Jan 27, 2016, at 2:26 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: > > > I'm in the process of rigging the ailerons, etc. In the process of setting the ailerons, you have to set the flap first. > > In the process of setting the flap, I noticed that I have interference between the inboard section of the flap and the fuselage side skin. (Photo attached) > > Obviously I'm going to have to file down the edge of the flap to be able to get the full range of motion without interference. > > However, my question is 'how much'? > > When the flaps are fully retracted. (Inboard nose of the flap solidly against the rear spar doubler, how much of a gap do you have exposed to the naked eye? > > Thanks, > Phil > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:40 PM PST US From: "RV10@TEXASRV10.COM" Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Flap/Fuse Interference File away.... Gaylon Koenning > On Jan 27, 2016, at 13:29, Phillip Perry wrote: > > With attachment this time... > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: >> >> I'm in the process of rigging the ailerons, etc. In the process of setting the ailerons, you have to set the flap first. >> >> In the process of setting the flap, I noticed that I have interference between the inboard section of the flap and the fuselage side skin. (Photo attached) >> >> Obviously I'm going to have to file down the edge of the flap to be able to get the full range of motion without interference. >> >> However, my question is 'how much'? >> >> When the flaps are fully retracted. (Inboard nose of the flap solidly against the rear spar doubler, how much of a gap do you have exposed to the naked eye? >> >> Thanks, >> Phil >> >> Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:11 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand While Stein is a superb vendor, you pay a premium for the service. I'm troubled that Van's does not even provide the aluminum panel blanks in the RV-14 kits. They say to "just call Stein, he will make your panel". While not for everyone, doing your own panel provides a lot of insight into how the stuff all works. For the new EFIS systems like Dynon the simplicity of a network centric architecture makes life a lot easier than the legacy analog days. Add to that the high probability that you will want to change something after a year or two and you have more incentive to do the panel yourself. Then again, some people just don't like wires.... Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 11:35 AM Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand Definitely just call Stein and work through the decision process with him. Also, actually BUY your system from him. As some people are finding out with the RV-14, he's got the right in's for backend support and can accomplish things other vendors can't. So when you need something later, you'll have him as a resource. But it's a two way street...be nice to your vendor and they will bend over backwards for you. He's been the best vendor that came through for many many customers left hanging in the past. Tim On 1/27/2016 10:02 AM, Rene wrote: > I agree with others..all answers are tainted by what we have already > chosen. Stein built my panel many years ago and I went with GRT.. > > I love the GRT and have upgraded my screens since I first flew back in 2008. > > One of my design goals was to distribute the processing to avoid > single point hardware and SOFTWARE failures. So as much as the one > box does everything approach looks like the best solution, I would > still worry about a single point failure..what do you have left. > > So my system is currently > > 2 screen GRT system (6.5 in HX) > > 1 GRT sport > > Garmin 430w > > Trutrak Autopilot > > The auto pilot can be commanded from the Garmin, 2 screen GRT, or > Sport. The sport has its own GPS and ADHRS.true fully mission > capable backup. > > The trutrak autopilot is great. > > Just my opinion with no real experience with other systems. > > I think it is a GREAT idea to call Stein and work through your > requirements. Over the years he has helped me greatly. Just to put in > a plug.he also sells bits and pieces you will need via his web site. > (steinair.com) > > Rene' > > 801-721-6080 > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand From: Linn Walters Good comments Carl. I wired my whole plane ... because I can. And I have the proper tools. The crimpers can be pricey but cheap crimpers will bite you down the road. I bought most of my connectors and wire from Stein because it was convenient and he had the proper aviation stuff. Saved me time looking for stuff a few $$ cheaper on the 'net. As Carl said .... if you wire your own you will be able to save a lot of head-scratching when something gives you problems. Make a schematic of your work. I used Express PCB ... there are two parts, the schematic and the PC board layout which you don't need. http://www.expresspcb.com/expresssch .... and scroll down to the zip file download. Linn On 1/27/2016 5:25 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > While Stein is a superb vendor, you pay a premium for the service. > > I'm troubled that Van's does not even provide the aluminum panel blanks in the RV-14 kits. They say to "just call Stein, he will make your panel". While not for everyone, doing your own panel provides a lot of insight into how the stuff all works. For the new EFIS systems like Dynon the simplicity of a network centric architecture makes life a lot easier than the legacy analog days. Add to that the high probability that you will want to change something after a year or two and you have more incentive to do the panel yourself. > > Then again, some people just don't like wires.... > > Carl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 11:35 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand > > > Definitely just call Stein and work through the decision process with him. Also, actually BUY your system from him. As some people are finding out with the RV-14, he's got the right in's for backend support and can accomplish things other vendors can't. > So when you need something later, you'll have him as a resource. > But it's a two way street...be nice to your vendor and they will bend over backwards for you. He's been the best vendor that came through for many many customers left hanging in the past. > Tim > > > On 1/27/2016 10:02 AM, Rene wrote: >> I agree with others..all answers are tainted by what we have already >> chosen. Stein built my panel many years ago and I went with GRT.. >> >> I love the GRT and have upgraded my screens since I first flew back in 2008. >> >> One of my design goals was to distribute the processing to avoid >> single point hardware and SOFTWARE failures. So as much as the one >> box does everything approach looks like the best solution, I would >> still worry about a single point failure..what do you have left. >> >> So my system is currently >> >> 2 screen GRT system (6.5 in HX) >> >> 1 GRT sport >> >> Garmin 430w >> >> Trutrak Autopilot >> >> The auto pilot can be commanded from the Garmin, 2 screen GRT, or >> Sport. The sport has its own GPS and ADHRS.true fully mission >> capable backup. >> >> The trutrak autopilot is great. >> >> Just my opinion with no real experience with other systems. >> >> I think it is a GREAT idea to call Stein and work through your >> requirements. Over the years he has helped me greatly. Just to put in >> a plug.he also sells bits and pieces you will need via his web site. >> (steinair.com) >> >> Rene' >> >> 801-721-6080 >> > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV10-List: Flap/Fuse Interference From: Rick Lark Phil, I filed off more than an 1/8" from both flaps and am glad I did. Once the paint goes on your gap narrows. I was also concerned with a little sideways movement of the flaps and their hinge supports too, so as I said, I had an 1/8" (before paint). Rick #40956 Southampton, Ont RV10 completed but not test flying until April On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Phillip Perry wrote: > > I'm in the process of rigging the ailerons, etc. In the process of > setting the ailerons, you have to set the flap first. > > In the process of setting the flap, I noticed that I have interference > between the inboard section of the flap and the fuselage side skin. (Photo > attached) > > Obviously I'm going to have to file down the edge of the flap to be able > to get the full range of motion without interference. > > However, my question is 'how much'? > > When the flaps are fully retracted. (Inboard nose of the flap solidly > against the rear spar doubler, how much of a gap do you have exposed to the > naked eye? > > Thanks, > Phil > > Sent from my iPhone > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:08 PM PST US From: Danny Riggs Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand I went with GRT HXrs the second time around. My hanger mate has AFS. He says that the GRT has better resolution (he is right on that account). Both of them are first rate. I bought all my stuff thru Steinair. It was cheaper than from the factory and they also do customer support par excellant!! Sent from my iPad > On Jan 27, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Carl Froehlich wrote: > > > Carlos, > > All good comments. Some additional thoughts: > > The three major players are Dynon, Garmin (the experimental side only!), and Grand Rapids. These are the companies that have established solid foundations for their business so you have some confidence they will be around for the long run. I did not list Advanced as they are now owned by Dynon. Even though Dynon sells and supports the Advanced line I don't see how they can support two such similar products for such a small market. In other words I expect the Advance line to be phased out at some point. > > For system elements, this is 100% dependent on your mission. If you are flying IFR then you should have: > - Two 10" displays with integrated traffic and weather displays (ADS-B in and TIS) > - Two ADHARS modules (and a system that automatically compares the modules to detect faults) > - Mode S transponder with ADS-B out capability > - Two axis autopilot > > A lot of problems are solved if you go with one vendor for everything. > >> From this you can do the apples to bananas comparisons. Do three full system cost calculations then decide which provides you the best capability/cost value. Do not ignore the total cost of ownership (Garmin flat rate charges, Garmin database subscriptions compared to Dynon's free for life, etc). > > Let us know what decision you make and why - this is the fastest moving element of the experimental market and new views are always worth the time to review. > > Carl > Full Dynon SkyView install (dual 10" displays, transponder, radio, ADS-B in/out, Autopilot) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 9:42 AM > To: rv10-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV10-List: Choosing an EFIS system and brand > > > You will find most of us favoring whatever brand we selected. I tend to think of MGL as a minor player, not what I would want for major support. > I dislike Garmin for many reasons, but others love them. > My three favorites that I debated over were Dynon, AFS and GRT. For what I wanted at the time autopilot was 4-5K extra for AFS and GRT because you needed a separate 3rd party unit. I think they have since integrated something into their software. > Acquisition cost and features will be one factor. Database cost and repairs cost will be the other main players. I frankly don't know how Garmin handles that with the G3X system. I would hope it would be better than with their other product lines like portables and certified panel mounts, where you pay a big flat rate fee regardless of what you need fixed. > I have been very happy with Dynon's upgrades, largely to meet customer requests. Their "free" database updates and pay for IFR charts approach works for me, but I'm sure there are other reasonable alternatives. > You need to spend time at an airshow where vendors are displaying, and ask more about costs and support, and less about features. They all have most features you want, but ease of use and figuring them out takes time to assess, and several subsequent visits to learn what you missed the first time. If you are outside the US, costs, data update sources and costs will all matter. > >> On 1/27/2016 6:22 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote: >> Guys >> >> I would like to hear your opinions about the EFIS systems and brands >> which are NOW in the market for an RV-10. >> >> Of course there are many factors, like quality, price, support, system >> integration, features and so on, in this or another order >> >> About the system I mean number of displays, single or double AHRS, >> integrated radio and/or transponder, integrated GPS and ADS-B, >> integrated auto-pilot, etc. >> >> About brand, you know >> >> But if you were to choose now which EFIS brand and system to put in >> your RV-10, what would you choose? >> >> (I know it depends on how much $ you can spend, but just wondering >> what is the current situation) >> >> Regards >> >> Carlos >> >> >> Este e-mail foi enviado a partir de um computador sem vrus protegido >> pela Avast. >> www.avast.com >> > campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv10-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV10-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv10-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv10-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.