Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:19 AM - Re: Plug Cleaning and Gapping... (Albert)
2. 06:51 AM - Oil and other dark arts (kearney)
3. 06:54 AM - TruTrak Shear Screws (kearney)
4. 07:28 AM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Carl Froehlich)
5. 07:32 AM - Re: TruTrak Shear Screws (Carl Froehlich)
6. 07:36 AM - Re: TruTrak Shear Screws (Tim Lewis)
7. 07:53 AM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Ben Westfall)
8. 07:59 AM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (dmaib@me.com)
9. 08:33 AM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Dj Merrill)
10. 09:05 AM - insurance (David)
11. 09:25 AM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Linn Walters)
12. 09:34 AM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Sean Stephens)
13. 09:56 AM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Dj Merrill)
14. 10:11 AM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (kearney)
15. 10:29 AM - Re: TruTrak Shear Screws (Bob Turner)
16. 10:48 AM - Re: TruTrak Shear Screws (kearney)
17. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: TruTrak Shear Screws (Carl Froehlich)
18. 12:31 PM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Miller John)
19. 12:32 PM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Bill Watson)
20. 12:42 PM - Re: TruTrak Shear Screws (Bob Turner)
21. 01:39 PM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Kelly McMullen)
22. 01:54 PM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Kelly McMullen)
23. 02:58 PM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Tim Olson)
24. 03:37 PM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Miller John)
25. 06:03 PM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Kelly McMullen)
26. 06:21 PM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Miller John)
27. 06:32 PM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Miller John)
28. 07:07 PM - Re: Oil and other dark arts (Kelly McMullen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Plug Cleaning and Gapping... |
I find the little pry bar that opens up the gap useful also. Not that I ever
over use the other tool that make the gap smaller.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/electrodespreader.php
Albert Gardner
RV-10 N991RV
Yuma, AZ
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2016 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Plug Cleaning and Gapping...
I was new to plug maintenance but went with the following. It has worked
well thru 700 hours. Applies to standard large electrode plugs (not fine
wire stuff):
Cleaner - compressed air powered:
Spark Plug Cleaner
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/splugcleaner.php>
Gapper and Gap Guage
Gapper <http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/precisegap.php>
ATS Guage <http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/ATSgap.php>
You definitely need a tray - I built my own. Build or buy a decent one.
Mark you rotation scheme on it. Holes drilled in wood will work but not
ideal for an important tool.
This kit has everything you need including the above stuff
The Kit
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/sparkplugmaintkit.php?recfer
11417>
On 7/7/2016 6:34 PM, Jeff Carpenter wrote:
Spruce sells a couple of different kits and has a big "a la carte"
selection... what am I after here?
Jeff Carpenter
4N10CF
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| Subject: | Oil and other dark arts |
Hi
I have been trying to get smart with regard to oil to use in the -10. I am wondering
what others have been using and why.
Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest Aeroshell W100
+ CAMGUARD.
A local A&P has seen cam problems with the Phillips and also recommends the change.
Apparently there is on ZDDP in the Phillips which is need to protect the
CAMS. MIke Busch also makes the recommendation.
My only issue is that cold weather (although I am in a heated hanger) could be
an issue.
Anyway, I wonder what the collective has to say on the this question.
Inquiring minds need to know
Les
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457980#457980
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| Subject: | TruTrak Shear Screws |
Hi
A could of days ago,my pitch servo shear screw sheared. I used one of the two
"spare" holes in the cam to install a replacement. Given I still have one "spare"
hole left for a shear screw I am not too concerned for the moment.
What I would like to know is how does on remove the sheared screw from the cam.
Inquiring mind s need to know.
Les
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457981#457981
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| Subject: | Oil and other dark arts |
Phillips XC 20W50 with Camguard. I shifted from AeroShell 15W50 based on
information about the merits of non-synthetic oil use in aircraft engines.
You point on the additive is correct - thus the need to use Camguard with
the Phillips.
Nothing wrong with Aeroshell W100 plus Camguard other than cold weather ops.
If you pre-heat you mitigate this issue.
Overall - other than using Camguard no matter what, I offer that the choice
between Phillips 20W50, AeroShell 15W50 or Aeroshell W100 makes little
difference.
Fly on,
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kearney
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2016 9:50 AM
Subject: RV10-List: Oil and other dark arts
Hi
I have been trying to get smart with regard to oil to use in the -10. I am
wondering what others have been using and why.
Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest Aeroshell
W100 + CAMGUARD.
A local A&P has seen cam problems with the Phillips and also recommends the
change. Apparently there is on ZDDP in the Phillips which is need to
protect the CAMS. MIke Busch also makes the recommendation.
My only issue is that cold weather (although I am in a heated hanger) could
be an issue.
Anyway, I wonder what the collective has to say on the this question.
Inquiring minds need to know
Les
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457980#457980
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| Subject: | TruTrak Shear Screws |
Just did this with a Dynon servo (it also has three holes so now I'm down to
the one open hole).
I figure that replacing the cam arm is the easiest way to go if/when I break
off two more shear screws. For me that means a call to Dynon.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kearney
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2016 9:53 AM
Subject: RV10-List: TruTrak Shear Screws
Hi
A could of days ago,my pitch servo shear screw sheared. I used one of the
two "spare" holes in the cam to install a replacement. Given I still have
one "spare" hole left for a shear screw I am not too concerned for the
moment.
What I would like to know is how does on remove the sheared screw from the
cam.
Inquiring mind s need to know.
Les
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457981#457981
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Shear Screws |
I had same question. My recollection. From discussion with lucas: The spindle gets
replaced. As i recall, it is attached to axle with roll pin.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 9, 2016, at 9:53 AM, kearney <kearney@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> A could of days ago,my pitch servo shear screw sheared. I used one of the two
"spare" holes in the cam to install a replacement. Given I still have one "spare"
hole left for a shear screw I am not too concerned for the moment.
>
> What I would like to know is how does on remove the sheared screw from the cam.
>
> Inquiring mind s need to know.
>
> Les
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457981#457981
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Oil and other dark arts |
FWIW...
My friend who owns and engine rebuild shop that has been doing it for
decades swears by W100. I asked him why one day and he didn't give
specifics but he said something like "because I tear them down all day and
if it were my engine I'd only use Aeroshell W100". So his recommendation is
W100 w/CAMGUARD (if you don't fly it often).
Ben
-----Original Message-----
Hi
I have been trying to get smart with regard to oil to use in the -10. I am
wondering what others have been using and why.
Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest Aeroshell
W100 + CAMGUARD.
A local A&P has seen cam problems with the Phillips and also recommends the
change. Apparently there is on ZDDP in the Phillips which is need to
protect the CAMS. MIke Busch also makes the recommendation.
My only issue is that cold weather (although I am in a heated hanger) could
be an issue.
Anyway, I wonder what the collective has to say on the this question.
Inquiring minds need to know
Les
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
I used Aeroshell W100 with Camguard up until I had new Lycoming cylinders installed
last spring. Zephyr Aircraft Engines in Zephyrhills, FL. did the work. They
recommended switching to XC 20/50 at that time. They had no problem with W100,
but said in all their years of overhauling engines they just liked the XC
better. They suggested going back to using Camguard once the new cylinders were
broken in.
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457986#457986
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
On 7/9/2016 9:49 AM, kearney wrote:
> Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest Aeroshell
W100 + CAMGUARD.
Aviation Consumer did a test awhile back, and found that Phillips XC
20w50 with Camguard was one of the best at preventing rust, and not
nearly as good without Camguard (holds true for all of the different
oils tested). Use Camguard regardless of which oil you choose.
Check this thread, post #4 for a synopsis of their tests:
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?23996-Aviation-Consumer-14-Day-Oil-Shootout
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
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I am in the final stages of settling a small claim (by aviation standards)
with AIM through AJG aka Nation Air. I will advise the list when my 10 makes
its final test flight and the claim check is in my hand; I will pass on "the
knowledge that one never wants to learn but needs to know" when one has an
insurance claim.
David
Flying since 1964
Flying the 10 since 2008
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
I've never used camguard in 40 years of ownership. I use Aeroshell W100
..... I'm in FL ..... exclusively. Having said that, I have a friend
with O-360 that started using camgaurd with a fresh engine overhaul,
including new cylinders. He had them replaced under warranty for wear.
Same with the second set, which he replaced on his dime. I don't
remember what brand of cylinders .... I can find out if someone is
interested. He quit using camgaurd on 'his' set of cylinders .... the
only change in his routine ..... and has had no more problems. I've
asked the question about camguard and the answer I get is if the
airplane is flown regularly then you don't need it. If the engine sits
for long periods, then it's beneficial.
Linn
On 7/9/2016 11:32 AM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>
> On 7/9/2016 9:49 AM, kearney wrote:
>> Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest
>> Aeroshell W100 + CAMGUARD.
>
> Aviation Consumer did a test awhile back, and found that Phillips XC
> 20w50 with Camguard was one of the best at preventing rust, and not
> nearly as good without Camguard (holds true for all of the different
> oils tested). Use Camguard regardless of which oil you choose.
>
> Check this thread, post #4 for a synopsis of their tests:
>
> http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?23996-Aviation-Consumer-14-Day-Oil-Shootout
>
>
> -Dj
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
Dark arts indeed. :)
Here's a link to a EAA webinar done by Mike Busch back in 2011 I
believe. All About Oil...
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1149666747001
For what it's worth I use Phillips XC 20W50 + Camguard in the winter and
straight Aeroshell W100 other times.
-Sean #40303
> kearney <mailto:kearney@shaw.ca>
> July 9, 2016 at 8:49 AM
>
> Hi
>
> I have been trying to get smart with regard to oil to use in the -10.
> I am wondering what others have been using and why.
>
> Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest
> Aeroshell W100 + CAMGUARD.
>
> A local A&P has seen cam problems with the Phillips and also
> recommends the change. Apparently there is on ZDDP in the Phillips
> which is need to protect the CAMS. MIke Busch also makes the
> recommendation.
>
> My only issue is that cold weather (although I am in a heated hanger)
> could be an issue.
>
> Anyway, I wonder what the collective has to say on the this question.
>
> Inquiring minds need to know
>
> Les
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457980#457980
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
Ran across a few other oil articles that may be interesting to some.
Avweb "Oil Myths Debunked":
http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/oil_myths_debunked_197096-1.html
GAN "What Oil Should I Use?"
http://generalaviationnews.com/2013/05/19/what-oil-should-i-use/
Aviation Pros "All About Aircraft Oil :For Piston Engines"
http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10388663/all-about-aircraft-oil-for-piston-engines
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
Hi Again
I have heard from a very knowledgeable source that a major oil company did a study
of the factors affecting engine wear. As it turns out, the single most important
determinant was frequent replacement of the oil filter.
Make sense when you consider that you are removing wear particles form the system
(I guess).
Cheers
Les
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457992#457992
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Shear Screws |
3 replies already. Is this a common?
Note to current builders: Trio doesn't have this problem.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457993#457993
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Shear Screws |
Hi
When I spoke to Tru Trak support, I was told that the shear screw was designed
to allow the pilot to overpower the servo or to allow for heavy turbulence.
Now that I know what happened, I am comfortable with being able to gain control
over the A/P (with force if necessary). I'll also be careful about control inputs
when the A/P is engaged.
Cheers
Les
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457994#457994
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Shear Screws |
Hardly a problem. The Shear Screw on my Dynon servo worked exactly as
designed (I overpowered the linkage jerking on the stick when we hit a hard
air pocket).
I would be amazed if all autopilot servos did not have the exact same design
feature as the pilot needs to have recourse for jammed servo linkages and
such.
Carl
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Turner
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2016 1:29 PM
Subject: RV10-List: Re: TruTrak Shear Screws
3 replies already. Is this a common?
Note to current builders: Trio doesn't have this problem.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457993#457993
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
Les,
I use Aeroshell +100 with Camguard added during hot months, and Aeroshell +80 with
Camguard in the cold months.
Change oil every 4 months as Mike Bush has recommended for a long time. I have
yet not hit 50 hrs (other change point) in a 4 month period.
grumpy
> On Jul 9, 2016, at 8:49 AM, kearney <kearney@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> I have been trying to get smart with regard to oil to use in the -10. I am wondering
what others have been using and why.
>
> Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest Aeroshell
W100 + CAMGUARD.
>
> A local A&P has seen cam problems with the Phillips and also recommends the change.
Apparently there is on ZDDP in the Phillips which is need to protect the
CAMS. MIke Busch also makes the recommendation.
>
> My only issue is that cold weather (although I am in a heated hanger) could be
an issue.
>
> Anyway, I wonder what the collective has to say on the this question.
>
> Inquiring minds need to know
>
> Les
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457980#457980
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
Same as below by reference to the same link.
On 7/9/2016 12:34 PM, Sean Stephens wrote:
>
> Dark arts indeed. :)
>
> Here's a link to a EAA webinar done by Mike Busch back in 2011 I
> believe. All About Oil...
>
> http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1149666747001
>
> For what it's worth I use Phillips XC 20W50 + Camguard in the winter
> and straight Aeroshell W100 other times.
>
> -Sean #40303
---
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| Subject: | Re: TruTrak Shear Screws |
carl.froehlich(at)verizon wrote:
>
>
> I would be amazed if all autopilot servos did not have the exact same design
> feature as the pilot needs to have recourse for jammed servo linkages and
> such.
>
> Carl
>
> --
Trio does not.
It uses a slip-clutch. Disengaged, the servo's gears are no longer in the control
circuit. Engaged, they are, but under high load (adjustable) the friction plates
on the clutch will slip, allowing the pilot to manually over-power the autopilot
(in practice not much force is required). If for some reason the clutch
won't slip, the first gear is nylon (others are metal) and with somewhat more
force, it will strip, releasing the autopilot servo from the control circuit.
IMHO a very nice design.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457999#457999
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
Using the the Plus version of Aeroshell is a waste of money If you are
using Camguard. The Plus version has the Lycoming additive, which is
only needed if you have one of the 76 series (like O-320-H2AD) or E
series O-360 that have dual headed magneto. Having more varieties of
additives is not a benefit. Either get the straight weight non-Plus, or
Phillips XC.
On 7/9/2016 12:27 PM, Miller John wrote:
>
> Les,
>
> I use Aeroshell +100 with Camguard added during hot months, and Aeroshell +80
with Camguard in the cold months.
>
> Change oil every 4 months as Mike Bush has recommended for a long time. I have
yet not hit 50 hrs (other change point) in a 4 month period.
>
> grumpy
>
>> On Jul 9, 2016, at 8:49 AM, kearney <kearney@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I have been trying to get smart with regard to oil to use in the -10. I am wondering
what others have been using and why.
>>
>> Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest Aeroshell
W100 + CAMGUARD.
>>
>> A local A&P has seen cam problems with the Phillips and also recommends the
change. Apparently there is on ZDDP in the Phillips which is need to protect
the CAMS. MIke Busch also makes the recommendation.
>>
>> My only issue is that cold weather (although I am in a heated hanger) could
be an issue.
>>
>> Anyway, I wonder what the collective has to say on the this question.
>>
>> Inquiring minds need to know
>>
>> Les
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457980#457980
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
Sounds like his cylinder problem was not wear, but glazing from using
the additives too early in the engine life. I have about 300 hours of
Phillips use on my Mooney, plus 40 on my -10.
Lycoming cylinders rarely have pre-mature wear. Valve sticking,yes;
cylinder wear no.
On 7/9/2016 9:25 AM, Linn Walters wrote:
>
> I've never used camguard in 40 years of ownership. I use Aeroshell W100
> ..... I'm in FL ..... exclusively. Having said that, I have a friend
> with O-360 that started using camgaurd with a fresh engine overhaul,
> including new cylinders. He had them replaced under warranty for wear.
> Same with the second set, which he replaced on his dime. I don't
> remember what brand of cylinders .... I can find out if someone is
> interested. He quit using camgaurd on 'his' set of cylinders .... the
> only change in his routine ..... and has had no more problems. I've
> asked the question about camguard and the answer I get is if the
> airplane is flown regularly then you don't need it. If the engine sits
> for long periods, then it's beneficial.
> Linn
>
> On 7/9/2016 11:32 AM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>>
>> On 7/9/2016 9:49 AM, kearney wrote:
>>> Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest
>>> Aeroshell W100 + CAMGUARD.
>>
>> Aviation Consumer did a test awhile back, and found that Phillips XC
>> 20w50 with Camguard was one of the best at preventing rust, and not
>> nearly as good without Camguard (holds true for all of the different
>> oils tested). Use Camguard regardless of which oil you choose.
>>
>> Check this thread, post #4 for a synopsis of their tests:
>>
>> http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?23996-Aviation-Consumer-14-Day-Oil-Shootout
>>
>>
>> -Dj
>>
>>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
I agree, it's much easier to abuse your cylinders during break in and have that
be the cause of all the problems. I've used camguard for hundreds of hours in
the RV 10 and everything is great.
In the RV 14, I did not break it in with camguard. Iran Phillips mineral oil for
the first oil change. After that I i ran Phillips 2050xc. Not only did I not
one extra additives for the break-in, but while you're flying a lot, there's
much less need for camguard.
Regarding the Aviation consumer review on oil and camguard,
The gist of the article really is that any oil does well with Camguard. But, you
may as well run Phillips due to its lower price and multi-weight if you live
or fly to a colder environment. I used to use camguard with Exxon elite. That
works well too. It's just costs more.
But there are some benefits to a mineral-based versus a synthetic based oil and
vice versa.
Regarding straight wait oil versus multi weight oil, that's a really really tough
question. Sure, straight weight oil is great if you live in fly only in stable
climates. My problem is, if I change oil in August, do I need to use multi
weight? Or do I need you straight weight?
Basically, at most oil changes in any season, there's a fairly good chance that
I'm going to be flying with oil in a colder temperature where nighttime temperatures
maybe 40 or less. Unless I change it in June, and plan to fly 25 to 50
hours before September, that would be about the only time where it would make
sense to use straight weight oil. Almost all of the year at most any oil change,
I am going to have some seasonal overlap, and I want the multi. So to simplify
things, just by multi wait all the time for me. For those who only live in
warm temperatures and only fly warm temperatures, I almost feel sorry for you.
If you have no reason to run multi weight ever, that means you're probably
not enjoying the various seasons in the various parts of the country. ;) these
are great traveling machines!
Tim
> On Jul 9, 2016, at 3:53 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sounds like his cylinder problem was not wear, but glazing from using the additives
too early in the engine life. I have about 300 hours of Phillips use on
my Mooney, plus 40 on my -10.
> Lycoming cylinders rarely have pre-mature wear. Valve sticking,yes; cylinder
wear no.
>
>> On 7/9/2016 9:25 AM, Linn Walters wrote:
>>
>> I've never used camguard in 40 years of ownership. I use Aeroshell W100
>> ..... I'm in FL ..... exclusively. Having said that, I have a friend
>> with O-360 that started using camgaurd with a fresh engine overhaul,
>> including new cylinders. He had them replaced under warranty for wear.
>> Same with the second set, which he replaced on his dime. I don't
>> remember what brand of cylinders .... I can find out if someone is
>> interested. He quit using camgaurd on 'his' set of cylinders .... the
>> only change in his routine ..... and has had no more problems. I've
>> asked the question about camguard and the answer I get is if the
>> airplane is flown regularly then you don't need it. If the engine sits
>> for long periods, then it's beneficial.
>> Linn
>>
>>> On 7/9/2016 11:32 AM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/9/2016 9:49 AM, kearney wrote:
>>>> Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest
>>>> Aeroshell W100 + CAMGUARD.
>>>
>>> Aviation Consumer did a test awhile back, and found that Phillips XC
>>> 20w50 with Camguard was one of the best at preventing rust, and not
>>> nearly as good without Camguard (holds true for all of the different
>>> oils tested). Use Camguard regardless of which oil you choose.
>>>
>>> Check this thread, post #4 for a synopsis of their tests:
>>>
>>> http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?23996-Aviation-Consumer-14-Day-Oil-Shootout
>>>
>>>
>>> -Dj
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
Kelly,
One of the Aviation Consumer articles a few years back looked at running + with
Camguard. Their article reported little added difference adding the Camguard
to the + oil. The + is an anti-corrosion additive.
> On Jul 9, 2016, at 3:39 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
> Using the the Plus version of Aeroshell is a waste of money If you are using
Camguard. The Plus version has the Lycoming additive, which is only needed if
you have one of the 76 series (like O-320-H2AD) or E series O-360 that have dual
headed magneto. Having more varieties of additives is not a benefit. Either
get the straight weight non-Plus, or Phillips XC.
>
> On 7/9/2016 12:27 PM, Miller John wrote:
>>
>> Les,
>>
>> I use Aeroshell +100 with Camguard added during hot months, and Aeroshell +80
with Camguard in the cold months.
>>
>> Change oil every 4 months as Mike Bush has recommended for a long time. I have
yet not hit 50 hrs (other change point) in a 4 month period.
>>
>> grumpy
>>
>>> On Jul 9, 2016, at 8:49 AM, kearney <kearney@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I have been trying to get smart with regard to oil to use in the -10. I am
wondering what others have been using and why.
>>>
>>> Post break in, I have been using Phillips XC 20W50. Barret suggest Aeroshell
W100 + CAMGUARD.
>>>
>>> A local A&P has seen cam problems with the Phillips and also recommends the
change. Apparently there is on ZDDP in the Phillips which is need to protect
the CAMS. MIke Busch also makes the recommendation.
>>>
>>> My only issue is that cold weather (although I am in a heated hanger) could
be an issue.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I wonder what the collective has to say on the this question.
>>>
>>> Inquiring minds need to know
>>>
>>> Les
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457980#457980
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
I think you mis-read or misunderstood. The + or Lycoming additive is an
extreme pressure lube, no more no less. Originally TCP, now some other
phosphate compound. It is NOT an anti-corrosive. It was developed to
stop the cam failures in cold weather that the O-320H2AD engine was
experiencing in the 1977-78 C172s. It plus complete lifter redesign
fixed those engines. Only engines in those series require the additive
by AD. For the rest it was never needed, and is maybe it does no harm basis.
Camguard is anti-corrosive. All Aeroshell have moderate anti-corrosive
package, Exxon has more, Camguard a lot more. Phillips has very little.
On 7/9/2016 3:35 PM, Miller John wrote:
>
> Kelly,
>
> One of the Aviation Consumer articles a few years back looked at running + with
Camguard. Their article reported little added difference adding the Camguard
to the + oil. The + is an anti-corrosion additive.
>
>> On Jul 9, 2016, at 3:39 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Using the the Plus version of Aeroshell is a waste of money If you are using
Camguard. The Plus version has the Lycoming additive, which is only needed if
you have one of the 76 series (like O-320-H2AD) or E series O-360 that have dual
headed magneto. Having more varieties of additives is not a benefit. Either
get the straight weight non-Plus, or Phillips XC.
>>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
I would appreciate your source on the + composition. All that I have read says
it is an anti-corrosion additive, not wear related a specific engine ..
Thanks - Grumpy
> On Jul 9, 2016, at 8:02 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
> I think you mis-read or misunderstood. The + or Lycoming additive is an extreme
pressure lube, no more no less. Originally TCP, now some other phosphate compound.
It is NOT an anti-corrosive. It was developed to stop the cam failures
in cold weather that the O-320H2AD engine was experiencing in the 1977-78 C172s.
It plus complete lifter redesign fixed those engines. Only engines in those
series require the additive by AD. For the rest it was never needed, and is
maybe it does no harm basis.
>
> Camguard is anti-corrosive. All Aeroshell have moderate anti-corrosive package,
Exxon has more, Camguard a lot more. Phillips has very little.
>
> On 7/9/2016 3:35 PM, Miller John wrote:
>>
>> Kelly,
>>
>> One of the Aviation Consumer articles a few years back looked at running + with
Camguard. Their article reported little added difference adding the Camguard
to the + oil. The + is an anti-corrosion additive.
>>
>>> On Jul 9, 2016, at 3:39 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Using the the Plus version of Aeroshell is a waste of money If you are using
Camguard. The Plus version has the Lycoming additive, which is only needed if
you have one of the 76 series (like O-320-H2AD) or E series O-360 that have
dual headed magneto. Having more varieties of additives is not a benefit. Either
get the straight weight non-Plus, or Phillips XC.
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
Kelly,
The below is direct from the Aeroshell website. Seems that there are 3
properties of the + oil that can benefit engines=85..
Grumpy
AEROSHELL 100 PLUS
AeroShell 100 Plus
Modern Additives come to Aviation Engine Oil
Shell has developed a new aviation monograde which takes advantage of
modern additive technology. This oil, AeroShell Oil W100 Plus, is a SAE
50 grade similar to the traditional W100 grade, but includes an anti
wear additive, an anti corrosion additive and a metal passivator.
How do these additives work and what advantage do they give you?
I am often asked about whether after market "wonder cure" additives
benefit an engine and if they can be used in aviation piston engine
oils. The general rule is that, unless they have been properly tested
and approved for use in aircraft engines, they should not be used. Often
these additives at best give no benefit at all, or can even cause the
engine harm.
Let me give you some examples.
Most of the additives on the market have been developed for the
automotive market, where conditions are much different to those found in
aircraft engines. In automotive engines, cylinder head temperatures are
much lower, the fuel is unleaded, the piston diameter to length ratio is
much smaller, the mean power setting is much lower etc. I could go on,
but you get the idea.
These and other factors put different demands on the oil and have lead
to aviation engine oils being much different to their automotive
cousins. If we take the cylinder head temperature for instance, aviation
engines typically run around 100 oC hotter than automotive engines and
this leads to aviation oils needing to have specialised additives which
do not form ash - hence the name ashless dispersant oils.
If we were to use an additive which has been developed for the
automotive market, then it is likely to be an ash forming compound which
can cause combustion chamber deposits, leading to pre ignition which
normally rapidly leads to a hole being burned through the piston and you
looking at a stationary propeller looking for somewhere to land.
Other additives, such as the Teflon type "anti wear" additives, are sold
as being able to improve engine lubrication. This type of additive is of
dubious benefit and just coat the whole engine with a layer of Teflon,
regardless of where it is needed. This can, at worst, restrict oil ways
and limit lubricant flow, and at best is an expensive way of putting an
unnecessary coating on your oil filter.
If they were useful, ask yourself why the oil companies do not blend
them onto their oils already? These additives are not approved for use
in aircraft engines, so using them is not only potentially dangerous,
but also invalidates any engine warranty that you may have.
Moving onto W100 Plus, the load carrying additive works in a more subtle
way. The compound is blended into the oil and does not react until it is
needed. The way this works is that if two moving parts start to make
contact, then friction causes heat to be produced - this heat causes the
additive to alter its chemical structure and it then reacts with the
metal surfaces, coating them with a protective layer.
If the two moving parts then try to make contact again, then they are
separated by a layer of the additive even if no oil is present. In this
way the additive is only deposited where it is needed.
You will appreciate that this is particularly useful in limiting wear
when lubrication is marginal, such as on engine start up and on
components which experience unusually high load - typically cams and cam
followers.
This form of load carrying / anti wear additive is so effective that the
same type of compound used in all modern jet engine oils to improve
their performance; without it these oils would not meet the demands put
on them. This has also been recognised by Lycoming; they have adopted
the additive under the name LW16702, and is mandated for use in their
O-320H, O-360E's and TIO-541 series engines. Therefore using AeroShell
Oil W100 Plus means that no additional additive needs to be used if you
operate one of these engines.
Not only does AeroShell Oil W100 Plus have this anti wear additive, but
it also contains a "metal passivator" and a corrosion inhibitor. What
does this mean?
Metals such as Copper are normally a problem for oils as they cause oil
to degrade quicker than they would otherwise. This can be a problem as
many General Aviation engines contain Copper - the largest area is
normally found on cam shafts which is left over from the manufacturing
process.
When cams are manufactured the cam face is often hardened using a
process called Nitriding. This leaves a hard, but brittle, surface -
ideal for the cam face, but not for the rest of the shaft.
The rest of the shaft does not need to be hardened and it performs
better if the surface is not brittle from the Nitriding process. So to
protect the rest of the shaft, a thin layer of Copper plating is used to
cover all the areas which do not need to be hardened.
Once the cam has been manufactured this Copper serves no useful purpose,
but it is not removed. This can be a problem for the oil in an engine
because, as I have mentioned, the copper acts as a catalyst to make the
oil degrade faster than normal - and a degraded oil does not make a good
lubricant.
This is where the "metal passivator" comes in. This additive reacts with
the surface of Copper components forming a protective layer which
separates them from the oil, thus preventing the Copper from degrading
the oil.
One more additive is used in AeroShell Oil W100 Plus and that is a
corrosion inhibitor. This inhibits the formation of rust in the engine -
a common root cause of engines not reaching TBO. Rust is often found in
engines as used oil is acidic and, combined with dissolved water from
the atmosphere, causes corrosion.
If you are wondering why this problem is more pronounced than in
automotive engines, it is all due to how often they are used. The
average General Aviation aircraft flies for around 100 hours per year.
Compare that to your own car which is probably 4 times that figure and
you start to appreciate how under utilised aircraft engines generally
are.
I should make it clear that AeroShell W100 Plus is not a preservative
oil, but an improved operational oil which has the ability to help
prevent the common causes of engine damage by making use of modern
additive technology. If you know that your aircraft is not going to be
flown for a month or more, you should consider using a preservative oil
which we covered in Newsletter 9 issued in Summer 1999.
The final thing to notice is that AeroShell Oil W100 Plus is a monograde
oil - not a multigrade - and is therefore subject to the same ambient
temperature limitations of all SAE 50 grade oils, such as AeroShell Oil
W100. You should check your Pilot's Operating Manual to see what
temperature range is suitable for SAE 50 grade oils in your aircraft,
but if you want to move to a mutigrade, then similar benefits to those
highlighted above can be gained from using our semi-synthetic multigrade
AeroShell Oil W 15W-50.
> On Jul 9, 2016, at 8:02 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
wrote:
>
>
> I think you mis-read or misunderstood. The + or Lycoming additive is
an extreme pressure lube, no more no less. Originally TCP, now some
other phosphate compound. It is NOT an anti-corrosive. It was developed
to stop the cam failures in cold weather that the O-320H2AD engine was
experiencing in the 1977-78 C172s. It plus complete lifter redesign
fixed those engines. Only engines in those series require the additive
by AD. For the rest it was never needed, and is maybe it does no harm
basis.
>
> Camguard is anti-corrosive. All Aeroshell have moderate anti-corrosive
package, Exxon has more, Camguard a lot more. Phillips has very little.
>
> On 7/9/2016 3:35 PM, Miller John wrote:
>>
>> Kelly,
>>
>> One of the Aviation Consumer articles a few years back looked at
running + with Camguard. Their article reported little added difference
adding the Camguard to the + oil. The + is an anti-corrosion additive.
>>
>>> On Jul 9, 2016, at 3:39 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
wrote:
>>>
<kellym@aviating.com>
>>>
>>> Using the the Plus version of Aeroshell is a waste of money If you
are using Camguard. The Plus version has the Lycoming additive, which is
only needed if you have one of the 76 series (like O-320-H2AD) or E
series O-360 that have dual headed magneto. Having more varieties of
additives is not a benefit. Either get the straight weight non-Plus, or
Phillips XC.
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Oil and other dark arts |
The source is AeroShell and the FAA. Only the + and the 15W-50 are
approved as meeting the AD requirement for Lycoming or equivalent
extreme pressure lubricant on the specific Lycoming engines that
originally had cam problems. The straight AeroShell 100 does not have
that additive. However, both versions do have an anti-corrosion
additive, which you get whether you buy the + or the regular.
My comments were directed at what is different about the + version.
It is the meeting the AD requirement for extreme pressure lube. That is
the only difference regardless of what the ad agency puts out. If you
don't believe that, ask their retired tech rep Ben Visser. He still
writes for Gen Aviation News.
On 7/9/2016 6:20 PM, Miller John wrote:
>
> I would appreciate your source on the + composition. All that I have read says
it is an anti-corrosion additive, not wear related a specific engine ..
>
> Thanks - Grumpy
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