Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:43 AM - ELT and ELT antenna placement (Carlos Trigo)
2. 05:00 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (LarryRosen)
3. 05:35 AM - Re: Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Phillip Perry)
4. 05:38 AM - Re: Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Carlos Trigo)
5. 05:59 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Linn Walters)
6. 06:03 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Bob-tcw)
7. 06:25 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Linn Walters)
8. 06:47 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Kelly McMullen)
9. 07:08 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (dmaib@me.com)
10. 07:28 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Tcwtech)
11. 07:56 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Patrick Thyssen)
12. 08:19 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (LarryRosen)
13. 08:20 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Linn Walters)
14. 08:30 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (John Cox)
15. 08:31 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Phillip Perry)
16. 08:43 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (John Cox)
17. 09:00 AM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Don McDonald)
18. 01:26 PM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Kelly McMullen)
19. 02:30 PM - Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Bob Turner)
20. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Kelly McMullen)
21. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Patrick Thyssen)
22. 10:18 PM - Re: Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement (Kelly McMullen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | ELT and ELT antenna placement |
Guys
Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
And where did you install the ELT antenna?
Best
Carlos
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
I mounted mine on the wall of the tail cone, passenger side, near the cargo area. I made a mount similar to the one Vans sells passenger://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1497441127-310-252&browse=airframe&product=bracket The antenna is all the way in the rear under the tail fiberglass. Many have put both the elt and the antenna in this same area.
--------
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470095#470095
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
On mine the unit is in the tailcone, pax side, just behind the baggage bulkhead.
The antenna is mounted on the baggage bulk head and pointed forward into the baggage
area. It fits tightly up against the cabin top and rides in the 90 bend
formed by the cabin top and overhead air console.
You never know it's there.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 7:00 AM, LarryRosen <N205EN@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I mounted mine on the wall of the tail cone, passenger side, near the cargo area. I made a mount similar to the one Vans sells passenger://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1497441127-310-252&browse=airframe&product=bracket The antenna is all the way in the rear under the tail fiberglass. Many have put both the elt and the antenna in this same area.
>
> --------
> Larry Rosen
> #40356
> N205EN (reserved)
> <http>
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470095#470095
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
Thanks Larry
Let me ask: did you put the antenna "inside" the fiberglass fairing because of
drag, or was it because of integrity reasons in case of crash?
Best
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 14/06/2017, s 13:00, LarryRosen <N205EN@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
> I mounted mine on the wall of the tail cone, passenger side, near the cargo area. I made a mount similar to the one Vans sells passenger://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1497441127-310-252&browse=airframe&product=bracket The antenna is all the way in the rear under the tail fiberglass. Many have put both the elt and the antenna in this same area.
>
> --------
> Larry Rosen
> #40356
> N205EN (reserved)
> <http>
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470095#470095
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
I mounted my ELT on a raised floor over the trim cables, just aft of the
bulkhead. The antenna is mounted on that bulkhead pointing aft so it's
under the fiberglass fairing.
Linn
On 6/14/2017 3:36 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:
>
> Guys
>
> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
>
> Best
> Carlos
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
One very important issue on the ELT antenna: Although many have mounted the
antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing, this does not meet
the TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested with the ELT. This was
an absolute issue for the DER I used to inspect my plane. This was a go/no
go issue, not negotiable. The TSO requires the antenna must be mounted to
a ground plane and be within a certain angle with respect to vertical to
comply. The only suitable location was to mount the antenna to the tail
cone by drilling a hole through the aluminum skin. (for me this was
traumatic as I had worked to hide every antenna on the top surface of the
airplane)
Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his visit,
it will likely save you an extra trip.
(Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to accept that
Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that are not safety
wired, but instead utilize a locking thread patch. I had to change them to
drilled head bolts with safety wire prior to his visit)
-Bob Newman
N541RV
www.tcwtech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos Trigo
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
Guys
Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
And where did you install the ELT antenna?
Best
Carlos
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
Good call Bob. I have known a few DARs and FAA inspectors over my
experimental career, and have real heartburn with those that apply
certificated requirements or their own issues to an experimental
inspection. None of us want to tick off the inspector (read $$$ and
delay) but if asked for proof of guidance on the issues they usually
relent. If they don't then I comply in the least intrusive way .....
and return that item to the original configuration after the
inspection. I have had the ELT antenna discussion before and countered
the question with one of my own: "How many accidents have you seen where
the ELT antenna remained in the vertical position??"
Linn
On 6/14/2017 9:02 AM, Bob-tcw wrote:
>
> One very important issue on the ELT antenna: Although many have
> mounted the antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing,
> this does not meet the TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested
> with the ELT. This was an absolute issue for the DER I used to
> inspect my plane. This was a go/no go issue, not negotiable. The
> TSO requires the antenna must be mounted to a ground plane and be
> within a certain angle with respect to vertical to comply. The only
> suitable location was to mount the antenna to the tail cone by
> drilling a hole through the aluminum skin. (for me this was
> traumatic as I had worked to hide every antenna on the top surface of
> the airplane)
>
> Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his
> visit, it will likely save you an extra trip.
>
> (Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to
> accept that Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that
> are not safety wired, but instead utilize a locking thread patch. I
> had to change them to drilled head bolts with safety wire prior to his
> visit)
>
> -Bob Newman
> N541RV
> www.tcwtech.com
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Trigo
> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
>
>
> Guys
>
> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
>
> Best
> Carlos
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> 06/14/17
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
Good advice, and grounds to select a different DAR.
Yes, TSO requirements call for the antenna to be no more than xx degrees
from vertical. If the TSO writers can assure me of where vertical will
be after the crash, I would be happy to comply. If a plane flips, the
antenna sticking out of the fuselage will break off, leaving you with
nothing. The bulkhead works fine as a ground plane. There are lots of
issues with ELT regs that don't make some authorities happy, like most
use telephone cable to connect to remote switch. Of course that wire
doesn't meet burn specs. I'm sure I am preaching to the choir.
With ADS-B there is a track of the aircraft until it goes below ground
station coverage, so the ELT only helps find the plane within the few
miles it could travel below a few hundred feet on its way to impact.
As for the Cleveland brake issue, that is example of DER denying
validity of FAA/PMA and sTC approvals. Most Cleveland brakes are either
PMA approved or STC approved with the standard locknut without drilled
head bolts. Some older Clevelands did not have the locknut feature and
did use drilled head bolts. I have owned planes with and without the
locknut. Installed Cleveland conversion kit for single engine Cessnas
and flew the plane for 23 years without safety wired bolts. A DER should
not be questioning a part that has had FAA approval for over 40 years,
or should be petitioning the ACO that approved the part for an AD if it
is so unsafe. Of course obtaining 4 drilled head bolts of right size to
placate the DER is minor deal, and you could replace them with the
original bolts the minute the DER departed.
My DAR was a little concerned about some interference on my stick at the
far right/nose up position. Of course the stick could not reach that
area of travel with any pilot in the seat, even Twiggy.
On 6/14/2017 6:02 AM, Bob-tcw wrote:
>
> One very important issue on the ELT antenna: Although many have mounted
> the antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing, this does not
> meet the TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested with the ELT.
> This was an absolute issue for the DER I used to inspect my plane. This
> was a go/no go issue, not negotiable. The TSO requires the antenna
> must be mounted to a ground plane and be within a certain angle with
> respect to vertical to comply. The only suitable location was to
> mount the antenna to the tail cone by drilling a hole through the
> aluminum skin. (for me this was traumatic as I had worked to hide
> every antenna on the top surface of the airplane)
>
> Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his
> visit, it will likely save you an extra trip.
>
> (Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to accept
> that Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that are not
> safety wired, but instead utilize a locking thread patch. I had to
> change them to drilled head bolts with safety wire prior to his visit)
>
> -Bob Newman
> N541RV
> www.tcwtech.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Trigo
> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
>
>
> Guys
>
> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
>
> Best
> Carlos
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
The DAR I used back in 2008 also questioned the lack of safety wire on the brake
bolts. We took a look at the plans (to make sure I hadn't made a mistake) and
that satisfied him. I did eventually switch to drilled head bolts and wired
them. No big deal to do it, and a bit of belt and suspenders, I guess. Same DAR
was known to be a stickler on "legal" nav lights as far as color, brightness,
etc. I elected to install the standard Whelen system that Van's sold back then
to avoid any headaches. He actually had the equipment to measure the output
of the lights and was reported to check them on non-certified lighting. LED's
were not nearly as good as they are today. Have since installed LED bulbs.
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470103#470103
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
My only intent was to point out the ELT is definitely on the DAR radar as a sensitive
issue. In our area there's essentially no practical choice in DAR's
anymore. (For hundreds of miles). Knowing his hot button issues was the key
to a smooth an efficient approval.
As in all things we need to pick our battles.
lastly sorry for all the references to DER, I meant DAR.
All the work we've been doing on our STC has DER on my brain.
Bob Newman
Www.tcwtech.com
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:40 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
> Good advice, and grounds to select a different DAR.
> Yes, TSO requirements call for the antenna to be no more than xx degrees from
vertical. If the TSO writers can assure me of where vertical will be after the
crash, I would be happy to comply. If a plane flips, the antenna sticking out
of the fuselage will break off, leaving you with nothing. The bulkhead works
fine as a ground plane. There are lots of issues with ELT regs that don't make
some authorities happy, like most use telephone cable to connect to remote
switch. Of course that wire doesn't meet burn specs. I'm sure I am preaching to
the choir.
> With ADS-B there is a track of the aircraft until it goes below ground station
coverage, so the ELT only helps find the plane within the few miles it could
travel below a few hundred feet on its way to impact.
>
> As for the Cleveland brake issue, that is example of DER denying validity of
FAA/PMA and sTC approvals. Most Cleveland brakes are either PMA approved or STC
approved with the standard locknut without drilled head bolts. Some older Clevelands
did not have the locknut feature and did use drilled head bolts. I have
owned planes with and without the locknut. Installed Cleveland conversion kit
for single engine Cessnas and flew the plane for 23 years without safety wired
bolts. A DER should not be questioning a part that has had FAA approval for
over 40 years, or should be petitioning the ACO that approved the part for an
AD if it is so unsafe. Of course obtaining 4 drilled head bolts of right size
to placate the DER is minor deal, and you could replace them with the original
bolts the minute the DER departed.
> My DAR was a little concerned about some interference on my stick at the far
right/nose up position. Of course the stick could not reach that area of travel
with any pilot in the seat, even Twiggy.
>
>> On 6/14/2017 6:02 AM, Bob-tcw wrote:
>> One very important issue on the ELT antenna: Although many have mounted the
antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing, this does not meet the
TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested with the ELT. This was an absolute
issue for the DER I used to inspect my plane. This was a go/no go issue,
not negotiable. The TSO requires the antenna must be mounted to a ground
plane and be within a certain angle with respect to vertical to comply. The
only suitable location was to mount the antenna to the tail cone by drilling
a hole through the aluminum skin. (for me this was traumatic as I had worked
to hide every antenna on the top surface of the airplane)
>> Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his visit,
it will likely save you an extra trip.
>> (Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to accept that
Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that are not safety wired,
but instead utilize a locking thread patch. I had to change them to drilled
head bolts with safety wire prior to his visit)
>> -Bob Newman
>> N541RV
>> www.tcwtech.com
>> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Trigo
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
>> Guys
>> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
>> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
>> Best
>> Carlos
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
My question is, aren't elt antennas a transmitting antenna, just like your com
antenna? If so why are you not putting your com antennas inside of plane, tail
cone, engine compartment. Most elt antenna are flexible not rigid have not seen
them torn off unless flipped and since we have vertical stab chances are slim
that happening.
I'm still asking these questions and no one has answered them for me.
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 6:40 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
> Good advice, and grounds to select a different DAR.
> Yes, TSO requirements call for the antenna to be no more than xx degrees from
vertical. If the TSO writers can assure me of where vertical will be after the
crash, I would be happy to comply. If a plane flips, the antenna sticking out
of the fuselage will break off, leaving you with nothing. The bulkhead works
fine as a ground plane. There are lots of issues with ELT regs that don't make
some authorities happy, like most use telephone cable to connect to remote
switch. Of course that wire doesn't meet burn specs. I'm sure I am preaching to
the choir.
> With ADS-B there is a track of the aircraft until it goes below ground station
coverage, so the ELT only helps find the plane within the few miles it could
travel below a few hundred feet on its way to impact.
>
> As for the Cleveland brake issue, that is example of DER denying validity of
FAA/PMA and sTC approvals. Most Cleveland brakes are either PMA approved or STC
approved with the standard locknut without drilled head bolts. Some older Clevelands
did not have the locknut feature and did use drilled head bolts. I have
owned planes with and without the locknut. Installed Cleveland conversion kit
for single engine Cessnas and flew the plane for 23 years without safety wired
bolts. A DER should not be questioning a part that has had FAA approval for
over 40 years, or should be petitioning the ACO that approved the part for an
AD if it is so unsafe. Of course obtaining 4 drilled head bolts of right size
to placate the DER is minor deal, and you could replace them with the original
bolts the minute the DER departed.
> My DAR was a little concerned about some interference on my stick at the far
right/nose up position. Of course the stick could not reach that area of travel
with any pilot in the seat, even Twiggy.
>
>> On 6/14/2017 6:02 AM, Bob-tcw wrote:
>> One very important issue on the ELT antenna: Although many have mounted the
antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing, this does not meet the
TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested with the ELT. This was an absolute
issue for the DER I used to inspect my plane. This was a go/no go issue,
not negotiable. The TSO requires the antenna must be mounted to a ground
plane and be within a certain angle with respect to vertical to comply. The
only suitable location was to mount the antenna to the tail cone by drilling
a hole through the aluminum skin. (for me this was traumatic as I had worked
to hide every antenna on the top surface of the airplane)
>> Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his visit,
it will likely save you an extra trip.
>> (Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to accept that
Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that are not safety wired,
but instead utilize a locking thread patch. I had to change them to drilled
head bolts with safety wire prior to his visit)
>> -Bob Newman
>> N541RV
>> www.tcwtech.com
>> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Trigo
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
>> Guys
>> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
>> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
>> Best
>> Carlos
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
The real reason I put it there was aesthetics.
I didn't want the antenna on the exterior and it seemed like a good place.
trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt wrote:
> Thanks Larry
>
> Let me ask: did you put the antenna "inside" the fiberglass fairing because
of drag, or was it because of integrity reasons in case of crash?
>
> Best
> Carlos
>
> Enviado do meu iPhone
>
> No dia 14/06/2017, s 13:00, LarryRosen escreveu:
>
>
> >
> >
> > I mounted mine on the wall of the tail cone, passenger side, near the cargo area. I made a mount similar to the one Vans sells passenger://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1497441127-310-252&browse=airframe&product=bracket The antenna is all the way in the rear under the tail fiberglass. Many have put both the elt and the antenna in this same area.
> >
> > --------
> > Larry Rosen
> > #40356
> > N205EN (reserved)
> > <http>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470095#470095
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470108#470108
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
See below .....
On 6/14/2017 10:56 AM, Patrick Thyssen wrote:
>
> My question is, aren't elt antennas a transmitting antenna, just like your com
antenna?
Other than the fact that they are vertically polarized their function is
different. You hope to never use the ELT antenna but you hope to use
you com antennas a lot. Since the new 406 Mhz. ELTs are using
satellites for receptions ..... vastly different for the ground-based
121.5 ELTs .... mounting the antenna on it's side (if it stays that way
after impact) provides a much better signal for the satellite.
> If so why are you not putting your com antennas inside of plane, tail cone,
engine compartment.
Some do. Search for Archer antennas. Mostly mounted inside fiberglass
wingtips.
> Most elt antenna are flexible not rigid have not seen them torn off unless
flipped and since we have vertical stab chances are slim that happening.
The FAA has come out with a SB (I think) on ELTs that are mounted with a
velcro strap to prevent them from coming loose in severe deceleration
..... because the have become disconnected from the antenna.
> I'm still asking these questions and no one has answered them for me.
I hope this helps. Remember that a round rod has more drag than most
other shapes like airfoils. Also, in my mind the crashes severe enough
to cause concern over antenna orientation/connection only need the
antenna for searchers to find the remains. My 406 ELT only came with a
whip so I velcro'd a rubber ducky antenna to to ELT to use it as a
portable. I also plan on carrying a PLB. Many options are available to
help rescuers find you.
Linn
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 6:40 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Good advice, and grounds to select a different DAR.
>> Yes, TSO requirements call for the antenna to be no more than xx degrees from
vertical. If the TSO writers can assure me of where vertical will be after the
crash, I would be happy to comply. If a plane flips, the antenna sticking
out of the fuselage will break off, leaving you with nothing. The bulkhead works
fine as a ground plane. There are lots of issues with ELT regs that don't make
some authorities happy, like most use telephone cable to connect to remote
switch. Of course that wire doesn't meet burn specs. I'm sure I am preaching
to the choir.
>> With ADS-B there is a track of the aircraft until it goes below ground station
coverage, so the ELT only helps find the plane within the few miles it could
travel below a few hundred feet on its way to impact.
>>
>> As for the Cleveland brake issue, that is example of DER denying validity of
FAA/PMA and sTC approvals. Most Cleveland brakes are either PMA approved or STC
approved with the standard locknut without drilled head bolts. Some older Clevelands
did not have the locknut feature and did use drilled head bolts. I have
owned planes with and without the locknut. Installed Cleveland conversion
kit for single engine Cessnas and flew the plane for 23 years without safety wired
bolts. A DER should not be questioning a part that has had FAA approval for
over 40 years, or should be petitioning the ACO that approved the part for
an AD if it is so unsafe. Of course obtaining 4 drilled head bolts of right size
to placate the DER is minor deal, and you could replace them with the original
bolts the minute the DER departed.
>> My DAR was a little concerned about some interference on my stick at the far
right/nose up position. Of course the stick could not reach that area of travel
with any pilot in the seat, even Twiggy.
>>
>>> On 6/14/2017 6:02 AM, Bob-tcw wrote:
>>> One very important issue on the ELT antenna: Although many have mounted the
antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing, this does not meet the
TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested with the ELT. This was an absolute
issue for the DER I used to inspect my plane. This was a go/no go issue,
not negotiable. The TSO requires the antenna must be mounted to a ground
plane and be within a certain angle with respect to vertical to comply. The
only suitable location was to mount the antenna to the tail cone by drilling
a hole through the aluminum skin. (for me this was traumatic as I had worked
to hide every antenna on the top surface of the airplane)
>>> Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his visit,
it will likely save you an extra trip.
>>> (Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to accept that
Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that are not safety wired,
but instead utilize a locking thread patch. I had to change them to drilled
head bolts with safety wire prior to his visit)
>>> -Bob Newman
>>> N541RV
>>> www.tcwtech.com
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Trigo
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
>>> Guys
>>> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
>>> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
>>> Best
>>> Carlos
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
Patrick,
Certified Aircraft vs. Experiments
Antenna polarity and signal broadcast effectiveness are based on the
antenna "tuned" within spec for the specific frequency. Comms often have
problems at the higher freqs due to tuning in the mid range of a wide
spectrum. ELTs are the limp appendage of aircraft electronics.
As a now retired Airline Avionics tech who regularly tested signal and
battery strength as well as squitter data stream broadcast accuracy, the
antenna was *alway vertical*. A portion on the radiating end was *always
outside the aircraft* skin and the ground plane was *always effectively a
solid ground-plane*. We even do annual drop testing.
Many experimentals I have inspected do not have batteries which comply with
the FARs and their antennas are hidden for builder decided cosmetic reasons
which produce little effective broadcast range. The Vertical airfoil
usually provides adequate protection to continue broadcasting after an
unintended hard landing.
Compromise is one of the actions that reasonable, well educated people
deviate from regulated norms. Your mileage will vary. 406 has helped a
lot. 121.5 remains a joke. We tested all three frequencies every year on
the correct minutes after the hour or grounded the non-compliant elts or
worse the aircraft from beloved revenue production.
ULBs and Orange (black) boxes are another subject we do not screw with. We
have no latitude to play with their intended purpose and periodic testing.
John Cox
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 7:56 AM, Patrick Thyssen <jump2@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> My question is, aren't elt antennas a transmitting antenna, just like your
> com antenna? If so why are you not putting your com antennas inside of
> plane, tail cone, engine compartment. Most elt antenna are flexible not
> rigid have not seen them torn off unless flipped and since we have vertical
> stab chances are slim that happening.
> I'm still asking these questions and no one has answered them for me.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jun 14, 2017, at 6:40 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Good advice, and grounds to select a different DAR.
> > Yes, TSO requirements call for the antenna to be no more than xx degrees
> from vertical. If the TSO writers can assure me of where vertical will be
> after the crash, I would be happy to comply. If a plane flips, the antenna
> sticking out of the fuselage will break off, leaving you with nothing. The
> bulkhead works fine as a ground plane. There are lots of issues with ELT
> regs that don't make some authorities happy, like most use telephone cable
> to connect to remote switch. Of course that wire doesn't meet burn specs.
> I'm sure I am preaching to the choir.
> > With ADS-B there is a track of the aircraft until it goes below ground
> station coverage, so the ELT only helps find the plane within the few miles
> it could travel below a few hundred feet on its way to impact.
> >
> > As for the Cleveland brake issue, that is example of DER denying
> validity of FAA/PMA and sTC approvals. Most Cleveland brakes are either PMA
> approved or STC approved with the standard locknut without drilled head
> bolts. Some older Clevelands did not have the locknut feature and did use
> drilled head bolts. I have owned planes with and without the locknut.
> Installed Cleveland conversion kit for single engine Cessnas and flew the
> plane for 23 years without safety wired bolts. A DER should not be
> questioning a part that has had FAA approval for over 40 years, or should
> be petitioning the ACO that approved the part for an AD if it is so unsafe.
> Of course obtaining 4 drilled head bolts of right size to placate the DER
> is minor deal, and you could replace them with the original bolts the
> minute the DER departed.
> > My DAR was a little concerned about some interference on my stick at the
> far right/nose up position. Of course the stick could not reach that area
> of travel with any pilot in the seat, even Twiggy.
> >
> >> On 6/14/2017 6:02 AM, Bob-tcw wrote:
> >> One very important issue on the ELT antenna: Although many have
> mounted the antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing, this
> does not meet the TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested with the
> ELT. This was an absolute issue for the DER I used to inspect my plane.
> This was a go/no go issue, not negotiable. The TSO requires the antenna
> must be mounted to a ground plane and be within a certain angle with
> respect to vertical to comply. The only suitable location was to mount
> the antenna to the tail cone by drilling a hole through the aluminum skin.
> (for me this was traumatic as I had worked to hide every antenna on the
> top surface of the airplane)
> >> Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his
> visit, it will likely save you an extra trip.
> >> (Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to accept
> that Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that are not
> safety wired, but instead utilize a locking thread patch. I had to change
> them to drilled head bolts with safety wire prior to his visit)
> >> -Bob Newman
> >> N541RV
> >> www.tcwtech.com
> >> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Trigo
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
> >> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
> >> Guys
> >> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
> >> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
> >> Best
> >> Carlos
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
Our local DAR is a bit ridiculous too. He has a hard time understanding the differences
between the two. I went ahead and spent the extra cash to fly a DAR
in from 700 miles away who had experience in the E-AB world.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:27 AM, Tcwtech <rnewman@tcwtech.com> wrote:
>
>
> My only intent was to point out the ELT is definitely on the DAR radar as a sensitive
issue. In our area there's essentially no practical choice in DAR's
anymore. (For hundreds of miles). Knowing his hot button issues was the key
to a smooth an efficient approval.
>
> As in all things we need to pick our battles.
>
> lastly sorry for all the references to DER, I meant DAR.
>
> All the work we've been doing on our STC has DER on my brain.
>
> Bob Newman
> Www.tcwtech.com
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:40 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Good advice, and grounds to select a different DAR.
>> Yes, TSO requirements call for the antenna to be no more than xx degrees from
vertical. If the TSO writers can assure me of where vertical will be after the
crash, I would be happy to comply. If a plane flips, the antenna sticking
out of the fuselage will break off, leaving you with nothing. The bulkhead works
fine as a ground plane. There are lots of issues with ELT regs that don't make
some authorities happy, like most use telephone cable to connect to remote
switch. Of course that wire doesn't meet burn specs. I'm sure I am preaching
to the choir.
>> With ADS-B there is a track of the aircraft until it goes below ground station
coverage, so the ELT only helps find the plane within the few miles it could
travel below a few hundred feet on its way to impact.
>>
>> As for the Cleveland brake issue, that is example of DER denying validity of
FAA/PMA and sTC approvals. Most Cleveland brakes are either PMA approved or STC
approved with the standard locknut without drilled head bolts. Some older Clevelands
did not have the locknut feature and did use drilled head bolts. I have
owned planes with and without the locknut. Installed Cleveland conversion
kit for single engine Cessnas and flew the plane for 23 years without safety wired
bolts. A DER should not be questioning a part that has had FAA approval for
over 40 years, or should be petitioning the ACO that approved the part for
an AD if it is so unsafe. Of course obtaining 4 drilled head bolts of right size
to placate the DER is minor deal, and you could replace them with the original
bolts the minute the DER departed.
>> My DAR was a little concerned about some interference on my stick at the far
right/nose up position. Of course the stick could not reach that area of travel
with any pilot in the seat, even Twiggy.
>>
>>> On 6/14/2017 6:02 AM, Bob-tcw wrote:
>>> One very important issue on the ELT antenna: Although many have mounted the
antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing, this does not meet the
TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested with the ELT. This was an absolute
issue for the DER I used to inspect my plane. This was a go/no go issue,
not negotiable. The TSO requires the antenna must be mounted to a ground
plane and be within a certain angle with respect to vertical to comply. The
only suitable location was to mount the antenna to the tail cone by drilling
a hole through the aluminum skin. (for me this was traumatic as I had worked
to hide every antenna on the top surface of the airplane)
>>> Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his visit,
it will likely save you an extra trip.
>>> (Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to accept that
Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that are not safety wired,
but instead utilize a locking thread patch. I had to change them to drilled
head bolts with safety wire prior to his visit)
>>> -Bob Newman
>>> N541RV
>>> www.tcwtech.com
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Trigo
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
>>> Guys
>>> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
>>> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
>>> Best
>>> Carlos
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
Many experimental ELTs are effectively dysfunctional or obsolete after
installation. Most tests are done by turning on the Comm to 121.5 and
thinking being 5 feet away will work in the real recovery - location
arena. How many have 406 tested annually? How many have 243 tested? Many
owners/operators do not install correct replacement batteries and correctly
test batteries or replace non-compliants on the correct schedule.
Find an avionics shop that will test all three and provide a written report
of compliance every 5 to 10 years.
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Our local DAR is a bit ridiculous too. He has a hard time understanding
> the differences between the two. I went ahead and spent the extra cash to
> fly a DAR in from 700 miles away who had experience in the E-AB world.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:27 AM, Tcwtech <rnewman@tcwtech.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > My only intent was to point out the ELT is definitely on the DAR radar
> as a sensitive issue. In our area there's essentially no practical
> choice in DAR's anymore. (For hundreds of miles). Knowing his hot button
> issues was the key to a smooth an efficient approval.
> >
> > As in all things we need to pick our battles.
> >
> > lastly sorry for all the references to DER, I meant DAR.
> >
> > All the work we've been doing on our STC has DER on my brain.
> >
> > Bob Newman
> > Www.tcwtech.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:40 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Good advice, and grounds to select a different DAR.
> >> Yes, TSO requirements call for the antenna to be no more than xx
> degrees from vertical. If the TSO writers can assure me of where vertical
> will be after the crash, I would be happy to comply. If a plane flips, the
> antenna sticking out of the fuselage will break off, leaving you with
> nothing. The bulkhead works fine as a ground plane. There are lots of
> issues with ELT regs that don't make some authorities happy, like most use
> telephone cable to connect to remote switch. Of course that wire doesn't
> meet burn specs. I'm sure I am preaching to the choir.
> >> With ADS-B there is a track of the aircraft until it goes below ground
> station coverage, so the ELT only helps find the plane within the few miles
> it could travel below a few hundred feet on its way to impact.
> >>
> >> As for the Cleveland brake issue, that is example of DER denying
> validity of FAA/PMA and sTC approvals. Most Cleveland brakes are either PMA
> approved or STC approved with the standard locknut without drilled head
> bolts. Some older Clevelands did not have the locknut feature and did use
> drilled head bolts. I have owned planes with and without the locknut.
> Installed Cleveland conversion kit for single engine Cessnas and flew the
> plane for 23 years without safety wired bolts. A DER should not be
> questioning a part that has had FAA approval for over 40 years, or should
> be petitioning the ACO that approved the part for an AD if it is so unsafe.
> Of course obtaining 4 drilled head bolts of right size to placate the DER
> is minor deal, and you could replace them with the original bolts the
> minute the DER departed.
> >> My DAR was a little concerned about some interference on my stick at
> the far right/nose up position. Of course the stick could not reach that
> area of travel with any pilot in the seat, even Twiggy.
> >>
> >>> On 6/14/2017 6:02 AM, Bob-tcw wrote:
> >>> One very important issue on the ELT antenna: Although many have
> mounted the antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing, this
> does not meet the TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested with the
> ELT. This was an absolute issue for the DER I used to inspect my plane.
> This was a go/no go issue, not negotiable. The TSO requires the antenna
> must be mounted to a ground plane and be within a certain angle with
> respect to vertical to comply. The only suitable location was to mount
> the antenna to the tail cone by drilling a hole through the aluminum skin.
> (for me this was traumatic as I had worked to hide every antenna on the
> top surface of the airplane)
> >>> Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his
> visit, it will likely save you an extra trip.
> >>> (Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to
> accept that Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that are
> not safety wired, but instead utilize a locking thread patch. I had to
> change them to drilled head bolts with safety wire prior to his visit)
> >>> -Bob Newman
> >>> N541RV
> >>> www.tcwtech.com
> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Trigo
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
> >>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
> >>> Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
> >>> Guys
> >>> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
> >>> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
> >>> Best
> >>> Carlos
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
Pretty soon ATC will know pretty much exactly where we are all the time...
won't that pretty much take care of knowing where the plane crashed?
From: John Cox <rv10pro@gmail.com>
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
Many experimental ELTs are effectively dysfunctional or obsolete after inst
allation.=C2- Most tests are done by turning on the Comm to 121.5 and thi
nking being 5 feet away will work in the real recovery - location arena.=C2
- How many have 406 tested annually?=C2- How many have 243 tested? Many
owners/operators do not install correct replacement batteries and correctl
y test batteries or replace non-compliants on the correct schedule.
Find an avionics shop that will test all three and provide a written report
of compliance every 5 to 10 years.
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9@gmail.com> wrote
:
Our local DAR is a bit ridiculous too.=C2- He has a hard time understandi
ng the differences between the two.=C2- =C2-I went ahead and spent the
extra cash to fly a DAR in from 700 miles away who had experience in the E-
AB world.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:27 AM, Tcwtech <rnewman@tcwtech.com> wrote:
>
>
> My only intent was to point out the ELT is definitely on the DAR radar as
a sensitive issue.=C2- =C2- In our area there's essentially no practic
al choice in DAR's anymore.=C2- =C2-(For hundreds of miles).=C2- Know
ing his hot button issues was the key to a smooth an efficient approval.
>
> As in all things we need to pick our battles.
>
> lastly sorry for all the references to DER, I meant DAR.
>
> All the work we've been doing on our STC has DER on my brain.
>
> Bob Newman
> Www.tcwtech.com
>
>
>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:40 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Good advice, and grounds to select a different DAR.
>> Yes, TSO requirements call for the antenna to be no more than xx degrees
from vertical. If the TSO writers can assure me of where vertical will be
after the crash, I would be happy to comply.=C2- If a plane flips, the an
tenna sticking out of the fuselage will break off, leaving you with nothing
. The bulkhead works fine as a ground plane. There are lots of issues with
ELT regs that don't make some authorities happy, like most use telephone ca
ble to connect to remote switch. Of course that wire doesn't meet burn spec
s. I'm sure I am preaching to the choir.
>> With ADS-B there is a track of the aircraft until it goes below ground s
tation coverage, so the ELT only helps find the plane within the few miles
it could travel below a few hundred feet on its way to impact.
>>
>> As for the Cleveland brake issue, that is example of DER denying validit
y of FAA/PMA and sTC approvals. Most Cleveland brakes are either PMA approv
ed or STC approved with the standard locknut without drilled head bolts. So
me older Clevelands did not have the locknut feature and did use drilled he
ad bolts. I have owned planes with and without the locknut. Installed Cleve
land conversion kit for single engine Cessnas and flew the plane for 23 yea
rs without safety wired bolts. A DER should not be questioning a part that
has had FAA approval for over 40 years, or should be petitioning the ACO th
at approved the part for an AD if it is so unsafe. Of course obtaining 4 dr
illed head bolts of right size to placate the DER is minor deal, and you co
uld replace them with the original bolts the minute the DER departed.
>> My DAR was a little concerned about some interference on my stick at the
far right/nose up position. Of course the stick could not reach that area
of travel with any pilot in the seat, even Twiggy.
>>
>>> On 6/14/2017 6:02 AM, Bob-tcw wrote:
>>> One very important issue on the ELT antenna:=C2- Although many have m
ounted the antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing, this does
not meet the TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested with the ELT.
=C2- =C2- This was an absolute issue for the DER I used to inspect my p
lane.=C2- This was a go/no go issue, not negotiable.=C2- =C2- The TSO
requires the antenna must be mounted to a ground plane and be within a cer
tain angle with respect to vertical to comply.=C2- =C2- The only suitab
le location was to mount the antenna to the tail cone by drilling a hole th
rough the aluminum skin.=C2- =C2- (for me this was traumatic as I had w
orked to hide every antenna on the top surface of the airplane)
>>> Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his v
isit, it will likely save you an extra trip.
>>> (Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to accept
that Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that are not sa
fety wired, but instead utilize a locking thread patch.=C2- =C2-I had t
o change them to drilled head bolts with safety wire prior to his visit)
>>> -Bob Newman
>>> N541RV
>>> www.tcwtech.com
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Trigo
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
>>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
>>> Guys
>>> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
>>> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
>>> Best
>>> Carlos
>>
>>
>>
>
>
==== ====================
========== =
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ Navig
ator?RV10-List
==== ====================
========== =
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==== ====================
========== =
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
==== ====================
========== =
b Site -
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ contribution
==== ====================
========== =
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
John,
I'm not sure of the basis of your statements. The reg only does not state
that 3 frequencies must be tested. 243 is produced via a harmonic off the
121.5, so it will be of similar strength and quality, The reg was written
before 406 came about, and thus is not really addressed. the units I am
familiar with have self test function. There was/is an advisory circular on
how to do the test. IIRC it called for using an AM radio tuned away from
any stations to hear the sweep of the ELT. Takes some effort to hook up
the wrong battery to the first generation ELTs, because each case was
different size and different brand wouldn't fit. They are still legal, 40+
years after the original TSO....they were and are a joke, but legal.
As for the newer generation 121.5 that call for a specific brand of
alkaline battery...who cares if you install Duracell iinstead of Energizer
or vice versa, as long as it has an expiration date on it. Who keeps a log
of in use time to determine if batteries have accumulated 1 hour or more of
use?
With ADS-B, PLRBs, Spot, etc. the ELT really has become more of a
regulatory nuisance than a significant rescue tool. Some of us were around
to install the 1st generation units. In fact, I was close to some of the
aviators that spent months searching for the two Congressmen that vanished.
To this day, no sign of the aircraft has ever been found. With melting
glaciers, maybe that will change.
I seriously do not get the concern about vertical. What percentage of
crashes either arrive on the gear or right side up? Land in tree tops and
most any external antennas will be ripped off. I once took a fleet of
armored vehicles through uncut forest of young, small trees. Before we left
the woods, not one of the shielded lights or antennas remained.
-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 8:42 AM, John Cox <rv10pro@gmail.com> wrote:
> Many experimental ELTs are effectively dysfunctional or obsolete after
> installation. Most tests are done by turning on the Comm to 121.5 and
> thinking being 5 feet away will work in the real recovery - location
> arena. How many have 406 tested annually? How many have 243 tested? Many
> owners/operators do not install correct replacement batteries and correctly
> test batteries or replace non-compliants on the correct schedule.
>
> Find an avionics shop that will test all three and provide a written
> report of compliance every 5 to 10 years.
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Our local DAR is a bit ridiculous too. He has a hard time understanding
>> the differences between the two. I went ahead and spent the extra cash to
>> fly a DAR in from 700 miles away who had experience in the E-AB world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:27 AM, Tcwtech <rnewman@tcwtech.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > My only intent was to point out the ELT is definitely on the DAR radar
>> as a sensitive issue. In our area there's essentially no practical
>> choice in DAR's anymore. (For hundreds of miles). Knowing his hot button
>> issues was the key to a smooth an efficient approval.
>> >
>> > As in all things we need to pick our battles.
>> >
>> > lastly sorry for all the references to DER, I meant DAR.
>> >
>> > All the work we've been doing on our STC has DER on my brain.
>> >
>> > Bob Newman
>> > Www.tcwtech.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Jun 14, 2017, at 9:40 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Good advice, and grounds to select a different DAR.
>> >> Yes, TSO requirements call for the antenna to be no more than xx
>> degrees from vertical. If the TSO writers can assure me of where vertical
>> will be after the crash, I would be happy to comply. If a plane flips, the
>> antenna sticking out of the fuselage will break off, leaving you with
>> nothing. The bulkhead works fine as a ground plane. There are lots of
>> issues with ELT regs that don't make some authorities happy, like most use
>> telephone cable to connect to remote switch. Of course that wire doesn't
>> meet burn specs. I'm sure I am preaching to the choir.
>> >> With ADS-B there is a track of the aircraft until it goes below ground
>> station coverage, so the ELT only helps find the plane within the few miles
>> it could travel below a few hundred feet on its way to impact.
>> >>
>> >> As for the Cleveland brake issue, that is example of DER denying
>> validity of FAA/PMA and sTC approvals. Most Cleveland brakes are either PMA
>> approved or STC approved with the standard locknut without drilled head
>> bolts. Some older Clevelands did not have the locknut feature and did use
>> drilled head bolts. I have owned planes with and without the locknut.
>> Installed Cleveland conversion kit for single engine Cessnas and flew the
>> plane for 23 years without safety wired bolts. A DER should not be
>> questioning a part that has had FAA approval for over 40 years, or should
>> be petitioning the ACO that approved the part for an AD if it is so unsafe.
>> Of course obtaining 4 drilled head bolts of right size to placate the DER
>> is minor deal, and you could replace them with the original bolts the
>> minute the DER departed.
>> >> My DAR was a little concerned about some interference on my stick at
>> the far right/nose up position. Of course the stick could not reach that
>> area of travel with any pilot in the seat, even Twiggy.
>> >>
>> >>> On 6/14/2017 6:02 AM, Bob-tcw wrote:
>> >>> One very important issue on the ELT antenna: Although many have
>> mounted the antenna and the elt under the fiberglass tail fairing, this
>> does not meet the TSO requirements for antenna as it was tested with the
>> ELT. This was an absolute issue for the DER I used to inspect my plane.
>> This was a go/no go issue, not negotiable. The TSO requires the antenna
>> must be mounted to a ground plane and be within a certain angle with
>> respect to vertical to comply. The only suitable location was to mount
>> the antenna to the tail cone by drilling a hole through the aluminum skin.
>> (for me this was traumatic as I had worked to hide every antenna on the
>> top surface of the airplane)
>> >>> Ask your perspective DER for his list of go/no go issues prior to his
>> visit, it will likely save you an extra trip.
>> >>> (Another example of issues from the DER was his unwillingness to
>> accept that Cleveland brake calipers are held together with bolts that are
>> not safety wired, but instead utilize a locking thread patch. I had to
>> change them to drilled head bolts with safety wire prior to his visit)
>> >>> -Bob Newman
>> >>> N541RV
>> >>> www.tcwtech.com
>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Trigo
>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 3:36 AM
>> >>> To: rv10-list@matronics.com
>> >>> Subject: RV10-List: ELT and ELT antenna placement
>> >>> Guys
>> >>> Where did you install the ELT in your RV-10?
>> >>> And where did you install the ELT antenna?
>> >>> Best
>> >>> Carlos
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ===================================
>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>> Navigator?RV10-List
>> ===================================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
Hey guys,
I think we need to take it a bit easier with the DARs. After all, they are direct
or indirect FAA employees, and their job is to see to it that the rules are
obeyed. The rules say the ELT has to be TSO'd, and the TSO details antenna mounting.
I certainly wish the rules all ended with, "...but use common sense or
good judgement....". But that is certainly not the FAA way. So complain - but
the complaints should go to the FAA.
Not to change the subject, but I hope everyone has noted the latest FAA craziness:
If you now are flying under BasicMed you may act as PIC; but you may not act
as a required safety pilot if the PIC is under the hood. Where's the logic
in that?
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470131#470131
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
You are absolutely correct. Not to mention that you can change anything
you want as soon as the DAR leaves the premises.
On 6/14/2017 2:29 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
> I think we need to take it a bit easier with the DARs. After all, they are direct
or indirect FAA employees, and their job is to see to it that the rules are
obeyed. The rules say the ELT has to be TSO'd, and the TSO details antenna
mounting. I certainly wish the rules all ended with, "...but use common sense
or good judgement....". But that is certainly not the FAA way. So complain - but
the complaints should go to the FAA.
> Not to change the subject, but I hope everyone has noted the latest FAA craziness:
If you now are flying under BasicMed you may act as PIC; but you may not
act as a required safety pilot if the PIC is under the hood. Where's the logic
in that?
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470131#470131
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
> That's exactly why I quit working on other people planes. You become God, who
knows all. You do not have the right to take other people lives in your hands
because you think, I don't like a antenna there,it costs me 1/2 mph or it looks
cool with out it. You may wish you had it,god forbidding you have an accident
and that elt might ,just might save you if it was install according to the
way the engineers wanted them to be. Give me data that says the elt works Barried
in the tail. Then I'll say ok. Until you have engineering data I'll continue
to fight about putting it in the tail.
Just my two cents.
Yes I have been in a couple of high impacts, wear seat belts & shoulder harness
it's not a fun time when you need them.
Excuse me.
Sent from my iPad
> On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:32 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
> You are absolutely correct. Not to mention that you can change anything you want
as soon as the DAR leaves the premises.
>
>> On 6/14/2017 2:29 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
>> Hey guys,
>> I think we need to take it a bit easier with the DARs. After all, they are direct
or indirect FAA employees, and their job is to see to it that the rules
are obeyed. The rules say the ELT has to be TSO'd, and the TSO details antenna
mounting. I certainly wish the rules all ended with, "...but use common sense
or good judgement....". But that is certainly not the FAA way. So complain -
but the complaints should go to the FAA.
>> Not to change the subject, but I hope everyone has noted the latest FAA craziness:
If you now are flying under BasicMed you may act as PIC; but you may not
act as a required safety pilot if the PIC is under the hood. Where's the logic
in that?
>> --------
>> Bob Turner
>> RV-10 QB
>> Read this topic online here:
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470131#470131
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: ELT and ELT antenna placement |
I'm not sure who is convinced that the TSO approvals make the ELT any
better a transmitter installed as directed than some other way. Engineering
data? Who says there is anything behind the TSO than that was how they
chose to test it? Has anyone any reliable data on ELT antenna integrity
after crashes? Whether the antenna was positioned for maximum
effectiveness? We do know that aircraft with first generation ELTs are
still legal to use them, in spite of a record of high 90% false alarming.
Not to mention G switches that frequently fail to activate. Second
generation ELTs are still 121.5/243.0 only and legal to install in any
aircraft. Neither frequency is satellite monitored anymore.
All data shows 406 ELTs give better position information than the previous
generations, but no mandate to use them. Sure, vertical works better if you
know the antenna will be in that position after the crash. If a plane
plants its nose in soft dirt, the vertical antenna will be horizontal, for
a sub-optimal transmission.
I personally knew a forum member who crashed and most of his family
survived overnight in freezing/snowy conditions until found 12 hours later,
due to crappy 121.5 unit bouncing signals off mountains..but all but a few
kids died from exposure. A 406 unit might have saved them.
However, there are a lot of other factors.
Accusing someone of putting others at risk....there is the huge warning
that it is an experimental plane and the big Experimental label telling the
passengers that the aircraft does not meet federal standards. Does it
matter whether the ELT is perfect when you have an engine that isn't
certified, combined with a prop that isn't certified, etc. etc? We could
require air bags, survival packs, life jackets, rafts, etc.
-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 7:46 PM, Patrick Thyssen <jump2@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> > That's exactly why I quit working on other people planes. You become
> God, who knows all. You do not have the right to take other people lives in
> your hands because you think, I don't like a antenna there,it costs me 1/2
> mph or it looks cool with out it. You may wish you had it,god forbidding
> you have an accident and that elt might ,just might save you if it was
> install according to the way the engineers wanted them to be. Give me data
> that says the elt works Barried in the tail. Then I'll say ok. Until you
> have engineering data I'll continue to fight about putting it in the tail.
>
> Just my two cents.
> Yes I have been in a couple of high impacts, wear seat belts & shoulder
> harness it's not a fun time when you need them.
> Excuse me.
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jun 14, 2017, at 5:32 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > You are absolutely correct. Not to mention that you can change anything
> you want as soon as the DAR leaves the premises.
> >
> >> On 6/14/2017 2:29 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
> >> Hey guys,
> >> I think we need to take it a bit easier with the DARs. After all, they
> are direct or indirect FAA employees, and their job is to see to it that
> the rules are obeyed. The rules say the ELT has to be TSO'd, and the TSO
> details antenna mounting. I certainly wish the rules all ended with,
> "...but use common sense or good judgement....". But that is certainly not
> the FAA way. So complain - but the complaints should go to the FAA.
> >> Not to change the subject, but I hope everyone has noted the latest FAA
> craziness: If you now are flying under BasicMed you may act as PIC; but you
> may not act as a required safety pilot if the PIC is under the hood.
> Where's the logic in that?
> >> --------
> >> Bob Turner
> >> RV-10 QB
> >> Read this topic online here:
> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470131#470131
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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