RV10-List Digest Archive

Thu 12/21/17


Total Messages Posted: 4



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:22 AM - Re: Battery charger/minder/tender (Kelly McMullen)
     2. 05:48 AM - Re: Battery charger/minder/tender (John Miller)
     3. 05:07 PM - Dual battery automatic charger (whodja)
     4. 06:04 PM - Re: Battery charger/minder/tender (Bill Watson)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:22:55 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Battery charger/minder/tender
    From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
    Dan, I don't recall where I saw it, but the Odyssey batteries apparently don't like being charged at too slow a rate or two low a voltage. You might search for a document on restoring them. I do remember that somebody came up with a procedure. Don't recall if it was to discharge a fair amount and then use a constant current charger or something else. Early failures of Odysseys are not uncommon, either from low use while finishing a build or other uses that don't fit the normal start the engine, fly for awhile with alternator set a bit higher than a wet acid battery...maybe 14.4 volts. I have a charger that was sold specifically for the Odyssey, (Ultimizer?) that cycles from about 13.3 to 14.6 when maintaining a fully charged battery. I've got about 3 years on my Odyssey, with first year finishing build and learning the avionics before actually flying with it. Kelly On 12/20/2017 10:50 PM, Dan Charrois wrote: > > I thought I'd weigh in a bit with my own experience on parasitic loads on a PC680.. > > I have a dual battery configuration, with the idea being that I could power up avionics, enter flight plans, do pre-start radio calls, etc. off the one battery (the 680) and not have worry about draining the battery for engine start, as my other battery takes care of that. Also, the 680 is also connected to the "always on" pin for two of my EFISes (Advanced Flight Systems) which gives them a better orderly shutdown, clock maintenance (I presume) and the ability to run off the 680 as a backup battery if I have to turn my master off in flight for some reason. It's also connected to the "trickle charge" pin of a TCW IBBS Nimh battery pack (4mA max) used as a backup battery for other purposes. > > Conceptually, it works well. And in practice it *did* work well for the first little while - even in cases where I hadn't operated the aircraft for a month and the 680 was under those small parasitic loads for a long time, the voltage on the 680 measured fine and it ran my avionics for a reasonable amount of time. But lately I've noticed that my 680 can't maintain a charge for long at all if under any kind of load. I installed it around 3 years ago (only one of those years flying, but for the other two, it was installed and under the same electrical loads as now while I completed construction of the plane). > > As long as only a couple of amps are flowing through, it can maintain its voltage reasonably well before drooping. But if larger loads (ie: 7 or 8 amps) are present, it drains extremely rapidly. > > I'll have to replace the PC680 if I want any kind of reasonable backup operational time from it. Maybe a 3 year lifespan for a 680 in that electrical environment is to be expected, but I'm considering if other technologies might be more appropriate. I don't need the cranking capacity of the 680 in regular use - my other battery does that. But I am looking for something that can provide a 10 or so amp draw for as long a period of time as possible while not being so adverse to parasitic loads. Anyone found anything that meets that criteria? Or I can just replace the 680 every 3 or so years - there are certainly more expensive things I have to maintain in the plane :-) > > Dan > >> On 2017-Dec-14, at 7:53 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote: >> >> Having ruined a number of 680s during my 10 year odyssey, I've come to the same conclusions as Kelly has below. I'm a bit late to this discussion but here one thing I have empirical evidence for; undercharging these batteries will slowly kill them, slowly but inevitably. >> >> Three things I KNOW will do this is >> Inadequate voltage in aircraft charging circuit (read the spec sheet and obey it). This seems straight forward but do check that the voltage you are displaying is the voltage the battery sees. I was measuring the voltage for my two charging circuits in two different places (EIS and EFIS). Turned out one was accurate and one was not. >> Old battery tenders/minders not intended for AGM batteries. During my build, I had a few left over from my gel cell days in gliders. They will not adequately charge a discharged 680 but it takes about 1.2 years to discover that. I'm not sure, but using an old one to just maintain is worse than throwing the old thing away. If there are tenders/minders on the market now that are unsuitable for AGM batteries, I wouldn't know, but see Kelly's points below - you just don't need one, you need an AGM capable charger. >> Parasitic loads when not in use. My load was fully documented; the clocks in my (3) GRT EFISs (this has since been eliminated thru an enlightened SW upgrade). It was a very small load but it was 3X a small load. I have 2 batteries but the load was connected to only one, which made diagnosis easier but more expensive. Why is such a small load in a frequently flown plane such a problem? Didn't grandpa drive cars with electric clocks? That didn't seem to be a problem. Well it was occasionally a problem. And with AGMs, a parasitic load seems to be equivalent to undercharging it; the battery is sits in a slowly declining state then is undercharged the next time it gets hit with the starter load. I don't know whether that is actually the mechnism but I KNOW a parasitic load will slowly, inevitably, kill a 680 or 2. I guess you could keep it on an AGM certified minder/tender but I'd suggest hunting down the load and killing it. >> Things will work just fine with any 3 of these conditions for 1-2 years then they won't. It's a slow death that may mystify you for $awhile$. I have a boat but 680s make lousy anchors. >> >> Speaking of boats, my little jon boat is parked next to my '10. The Walmart/Schumacher charger with settings for AGM, Lead and Gel Cell(?) batteries worked fine until I apparently wore it out charging the lead acid trolling motor battery every other day. I'm going to separate chargers as a result. >> >> Regarding 'empirical evidence'; label, log and track your batteries, especially if you have 2 of the same installed like I do in my Z-14 scheme. That data is the key to figuring out whether you have slow death problems or not and what might be causing them. Problems are easily mitigated with a dual batt/alt/bus Z-14 which is good and bad. It can delay diagnosis of electrical system problems because they aren't so critical. Which means that you can kill 2 batteries with one problem before you decide to act. >> >> Bill "I KNOW is shorthand for 'ask me how I know and how much it cost me to figure it out' " Watson >> On 12/6/2017 10:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>> >>> The Odyssey is a variant of the AGM technology. I suggest that you do not need a "tender". You need something that can recharge the battery whenever it has been run down. Most any automatic charger with an AGM switch will do...as long as you only charge things when you are present. >>> AGM batteries have a very low self discharge rate, and if there was no leakage of current, would be very fresh after 3 months of sitting. >>> If you want a genuine Odyssey charger, you can go with >>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-12a-odyssey-portable-charger.html >>> or >>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-6a-odyssey-portable-charger.html >>> Both a lot less than the overpriced Battery minder models. >>> Again, I would NOT leave a charger of any kind on a battery unattended. >>> There are several unnecessary risks. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/6/2017 8:24 PM, Ed Godfrey wrote: >>>> >>>> I am looking to get a battery charger/tender and was looking for the Walmart one that Tim had suggested a number of years ago, to charge my Odyssey PC-925 battery. It seems that they no longer carry the WM-2500A model any longer. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what would be a suitable replacement? Thanks. >>>> >>>> Ed Godfrey >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > --- > Dan Charrois > President, Syzygy Research & Technology > Phone: 780-961-2213 > > > > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:48:38 AM PST US
    From: John Miller <gengrumpy@aol.com>
    Subject: Re: Battery charger/minder/tender
    While risking the ire of the battery charger war .. several articles have been written in the past in Light Plane Maintenance and Aviation Consumer that discuss whether or not to keep a charger on your battery(ies). You should go back and research those. Based on those, I purchased a Battery Minder designed specifically for the 2 PC680s I have in my RV10. Since I dont fly my plane at least an hour each week (the time required to fully replace the lost charge from starting) I keep a single Battery Minder connected to my 2 batteries. My first set of batteries were removed at the 6 year point, and were going strong. I keep one around the hangar for odd use and 12years on, it is still providing good amps. About to fly my newly built RV8 and was debating whether to get the increased cost Battery Minder when a friend turned me onto the Odyssey built chargers designed specifically for the Odyssey batteries (they come in 3 different charging amp versions). I just hooked up the 6amp version ($109 from AutoZone) and it has all of the capabilities of the Battery Minder except for the temperature sensor. My friend has been using one for his homebuilt for years and swears by it. Bottom line - unless you fly at least 1 hr (continuous flight time) once a week, your batter(ies) are slowly losing capacity over time..and if you have parasitic loads on them when in the hangar, a smart charger like the Odyssey or Battery Minder plugged in while the plane sits in the hangar are an absolute must. grumpy RV10 flying 11+ years, RV8 about to fly > On Dec 20, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Dan Charrois <dan@syz.com> wrote: > > > I thought I'd weigh in a bit with my own experience on parasitic loads on a PC680.. > > I have a dual battery configuration, with the idea being that I could power up avionics, enter flight plans, do pre-start radio calls, etc. off the one battery (the 680) and not have worry about draining the battery for engine start, as my other battery takes care of that. Also, the 680 is also connected to the "always on" pin for two of my EFISes (Advanced Flight Systems) which gives them a better orderly shutdown, clock maintenance (I presume) and the ability to run off the 680 as a backup battery if I have to turn my master off in flight for some reason. It's also connected to the "trickle charge" pin of a TCW IBBS Nimh battery pack (4mA max) used as a backup battery for other purposes. > > Conceptually, it works well. And in practice it *did* work well for the first little while - even in cases where I hadn't operated the aircraft for a month and the 680 was under those small parasitic loads for a long time, the voltage on the 680 measured fine and it ran my avionics for a reasonable amount of time. But lately I've noticed that my 680 can't maintain a charge for long at all if under any kind of load. I installed it around 3 years ago (only one of those years flying, but for the other two, it was installed and under the same electrical loads as now while I completed construction of the plane). > > As long as only a couple of amps are flowing through, it can maintain its voltage reasonably well before drooping. But if larger loads (ie: 7 or 8 amps) are present, it drains extremely rapidly. > > I'll have to replace the PC680 if I want any kind of reasonable backup operational time from it. Maybe a 3 year lifespan for a 680 in that electrical environment is to be expected, but I'm considering if other technologies might be more appropriate. I don't need the cranking capacity of the 680 in regular use - my other battery does that. But I am looking for something that can provide a 10 or so amp draw for as long a period of time as possible while not being so adverse to parasitic loads. Anyone found anything that meets that criteria? Or I can just replace the 680 every 3 or so years - there are certainly more expensive things I have to maintain in the plane :-) > > Dan > >> On 2017-Dec-14, at 7:53 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote: >> >> Having ruined a number of 680s during my 10 year odyssey, I've come to the same conclusions as Kelly has below. I'm a bit late to this discussion but here one thing I have empirical evidence for; undercharging these batteries will slowly kill them, slowly but inevitably. >> >> Three things I KNOW will do this is >> Inadequate voltage in aircraft charging circuit (read the spec sheet and obey it). This seems straight forward but do check that the voltage you are displaying is the voltage the battery sees. I was measuring the voltage for my two charging circuits in two different places (EIS and EFIS). Turned out one was accurate and one was not. >> Old battery tenders/minders not intended for AGM batteries. During my build, I had a few left over from my gel cell days in gliders. They will not adequately charge a discharged 680 but it takes about 1.2 years to discover that. I'm not sure, but using an old one to just maintain is worse than throwing the old thing away. If there are tenders/minders on the market now that are unsuitable for AGM batteries, I wouldn't know, but see Kelly's points below - you just don't need one, you need an AGM capable charger. >> Parasitic loads when not in use. My load was fully documented; the clocks in my (3) GRT EFISs (this has since been eliminated thru an enlightened SW upgrade). It was a very small load but it was 3X a small load. I have 2 batteries but the load was connected to only one, which made diagnosis easier but more expensive. Why is such a small load in a frequently flown plane such a problem? Didn't grandpa drive cars with electric clocks? That didn't seem to be a problem. Well it was occasionally a problem. And with AGMs, a parasitic load seems to be equivalent to undercharging it; the battery is sits in a slowly declining state then is undercharged the next time it gets hit with the starter load. I don't know whether that is actually the mechnism but I KNOW a parasitic load will slowly, inevitably, kill a 680 or 2. I guess you could keep it on an AGM certified minder/tender but I'd suggest hunting down the load and killing it. >> Things will work just fine with any 3 of these conditions for 1-2 years then they won't. It's a slow death that may mystify you for $awhile$. I have a boat but 680s make lousy anchors. >> >> Speaking of boats, my little jon boat is parked next to my '10. The Walmart/Schumacher charger with settings for AGM, Lead and Gel Cell(?) batteries worked fine until I apparently wore it out charging the lead acid trolling motor battery every other day. I'm going to separate chargers as a result. >> >> Regarding 'empirical evidence'; label, log and track your batteries, especially if you have 2 of the same installed like I do in my Z-14 scheme. That data is the key to figuring out whether you have slow death problems or not and what might be causing them. Problems are easily mitigated with a dual batt/alt/bus Z-14 which is good and bad. It can delay diagnosis of electrical system problems because they aren't so critical. Which means that you can kill 2 batteries with one problem before you decide to act. >> >> Bill "I KNOW is shorthand for 'ask me how I know and how much it cost me to figure it out' " Watson >> On 12/6/2017 10:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>> >>> The Odyssey is a variant of the AGM technology. I suggest that you do not need a "tender". You need something that can recharge the battery whenever it has been run down. Most any automatic charger with an AGM switch will do...as long as you only charge things when you are present. >>> AGM batteries have a very low self discharge rate, and if there was no leakage of current, would be very fresh after 3 months of sitting. >>> If you want a genuine Odyssey charger, you can go with >>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-12a-odyssey-portable-charger.html >>> or >>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-6a-odyssey-portable-charger.html >>> Both a lot less than the overpriced Battery minder models. >>> Again, I would NOT leave a charger of any kind on a battery unattended. >>> There are several unnecessary risks. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/6/2017 8:24 PM, Ed Godfrey wrote: >>>> >>>> I am looking to get a battery charger/tender and was looking for the Walmart one that Tim had suggested a number of years ago, to charge my Odyssey PC-925 battery. It seems that they no longer carry the WM-2500A model any longer. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what would be a suitable replacement? Thanks. >>>> >>>> Ed Godfrey >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > --- > Dan Charrois > President, Syzygy Research & Technology > Phone: 780-961-2213 > > > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:07:56 PM PST US
    Subject: Dual battery automatic charger
    From: "whodja" <whodja@gmail.com>
    I would like to keep both Odyssey batteries on a trickle charger. I previously saved a photo from a post but I cant identify the model # in this photo. Does anyone have and idea of the model # in the photo? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476678#476678 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/152a9c0c_e823_4fe1_8f87_e83e3f437041_832.jpeg


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:04:43 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Battery charger/minder/tender
    From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>
    No charger wars! But I would challenge one conclusion; "unless you fly at least 1 hr (continuous flight time) once a week, your batter(ies) are slowly losing capacity over time". I think the point is that the Odysseys need to be fully recharged after (most) starts and that it may take a full hour of post-start flight to fully recharge them. What I've found and read is that AGM batteries can be left untouched for long periods of time (2 years) as long as they are stored in a fully charged state. But anything that results in them sitting around in a less than fully charged state will slowly but inevitably kill them. My solution to this is 1) make sure my charging system is charging them at a high enough voltage (14.1 - 14.7), 2) Get rid of all parasitic loads, 3) If I ever need to power-on the plane without flying it afterwards, I hook it up to a charger to top it off. The biggest discovery I made after 5+ years of expensive battery abuse is that everything I needed to know was documented in the spec sheet that ships with every Odyssey. I just had to read and obey. On 12/21/2017 8:48 AM, John Miller wrote: > > While risking the ire of the battery charger war .. several articles have been written in the past in Light Plane Maintenance and Aviation Consumer that discuss whether or not to keep a charger on your battery(ies). You should go back and research those. Based on those, I purchased a Battery Minder designed specifically for the 2 PC680s I have in my RV10. Since I dont fly my plane at least an hour each week (the time required to fully replace the lost charge from starting) I keep a single Battery Minder connected to my 2 batteries. My first set of batteries were removed at the 6 year point, and were going strong. I keep one around the hangar for odd use and 12years on, it is still providing good amps. > > About to fly my newly built RV8 and was debating whether to get the increased cost Battery Minder when a friend turned me onto the Odyssey built chargers designed specifically for the Odyssey batteries (they come in 3 different charging amp versions). I just hooked up the 6amp version ($109 from AutoZone) and it has all of the capabilities of the Battery Minder except for the temperature sensor. My friend has been using one for his homebuilt for years and swears by it. > > Bottom line - unless you fly at least 1 hr (continuous flight time) once a week, your batter(ies) are slowly losing capacity over time..and if you have parasitic loads on them when in the hangar, a smart charger like the Odyssey or Battery Minder plugged in while the plane sits in the hangar are an absolute must. > > grumpy > RV10 flying 11+ years, RV8 about to fly > >> On Dec 20, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Dan Charrois <dan@syz.com> wrote: >> >> >> I thought I'd weigh in a bit with my own experience on parasitic loads on a PC680.. >> >> I have a dual battery configuration, with the idea being that I could power up avionics, enter flight plans, do pre-start radio calls, etc. off the one battery (the 680) and not have worry about draining the battery for engine start, as my other battery takes care of that. Also, the 680 is also connected to the "always on" pin for two of my EFISes (Advanced Flight Systems) which gives them a better orderly shutdown, clock maintenance (I presume) and the ability to run off the 680 as a backup battery if I have to turn my master off in flight for some reason. It's also connected to the "trickle charge" pin of a TCW IBBS Nimh battery pack (4mA max) used as a backup battery for other purposes. >> >> Conceptually, it works well. And in practice it *did* work well for the first little while - even in cases where I hadn't operated the aircraft for a month and the 680 was under those small parasitic loads for a long time, the voltage on the 680 measured fine and it ran my avionics for a reasonable amount of time. But lately I've noticed that my 680 can't maintain a charge for long at all if under any kind of load. I installed it around 3 years ago (only one of those years flying, but for the other two, it was installed and under the same electrical loads as now while I completed construction of the plane). >> >> As long as only a couple of amps are flowing through, it can maintain its voltage reasonably well before drooping. But if larger loads (ie: 7 or 8 amps) are present, it drains extremely rapidly. >> >> I'll have to replace the PC680 if I want any kind of reasonable backup operational time from it. Maybe a 3 year lifespan for a 680 in that electrical environment is to be expected, but I'm considering if other technologies might be more appropriate. I don't need the cranking capacity of the 680 in regular use - my other battery does that. But I am looking for something that can provide a 10 or so amp draw for as long a period of time as possible while not being so adverse to parasitic loads. Anyone found anything that meets that criteria? Or I can just replace the 680 every 3 or so years - there are certainly more expensive things I have to maintain in the plane :-) >> >> Dan >> >>> On 2017-Dec-14, at 7:53 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote: >>> >>> Having ruined a number of 680s during my 10 year odyssey, I've come to the same conclusions as Kelly has below. I'm a bit late to this discussion but here one thing I have empirical evidence for; undercharging these batteries will slowly kill them, slowly but inevitably. >>> >>> Three things I KNOW will do this is >>> Inadequate voltage in aircraft charging circuit (read the spec sheet and obey it). This seems straight forward but do check that the voltage you are displaying is the voltage the battery sees. I was measuring the voltage for my two charging circuits in two different places (EIS and EFIS). Turned out one was accurate and one was not. >>> Old battery tenders/minders not intended for AGM batteries. During my build, I had a few left over from my gel cell days in gliders. They will not adequately charge a discharged 680 but it takes about 1.2 years to discover that. I'm not sure, but using an old one to just maintain is worse than throwing the old thing away. If there are tenders/minders on the market now that are unsuitable for AGM batteries, I wouldn't know, but see Kelly's points below - you just don't need one, you need an AGM capable charger. >>> Parasitic loads when not in use. My load was fully documented; the clocks in my (3) GRT EFISs (this has since been eliminated thru an enlightened SW upgrade). It was a very small load but it was 3X a small load. I have 2 batteries but the load was connected to only one, which made diagnosis easier but more expensive. Why is such a small load in a frequently flown plane such a problem? Didn't grandpa drive cars with electric clocks? That didn't seem to be a problem. Well it was occasionally a problem. And with AGMs, a parasitic load seems to be equivalent to undercharging it; the battery is sits in a slowly declining state then is undercharged the next time it gets hit with the starter load. I don't know whether that is actually the mechnism but I KNOW a parasitic load will slowly, inevitably, kill a 680 or 2. I guess you could keep it on an AGM certified minder/tender but I'd suggest hunting down the load and killing it. >>> Things will work just fine with any 3 of these conditions for 1-2 years then they won't. It's a slow death that may mystify you for $awhile$. I have a boat but 680s make lousy anchors. >>> >>> Speaking of boats, my little jon boat is parked next to my '10. The Walmart/Schumacher charger with settings for AGM, Lead and Gel Cell(?) batteries worked fine until I apparently wore it out charging the lead acid trolling motor battery every other day. I'm going to separate chargers as a result. >>> >>> Regarding 'empirical evidence'; label, log and track your batteries, especially if you have 2 of the same installed like I do in my Z-14 scheme. That data is the key to figuring out whether you have slow death problems or not and what might be causing them. Problems are easily mitigated with a dual batt/alt/bus Z-14 which is good and bad. It can delay diagnosis of electrical system problems because they aren't so critical. Which means that you can kill 2 batteries with one problem before you decide to act. >>> >>> Bill "I KNOW is shorthand for 'ask me how I know and how much it cost me to figure it out' " Watson >>> On 12/6/2017 10:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>>> >>>> The Odyssey is a variant of the AGM technology. I suggest that you do not need a "tender". You need something that can recharge the battery whenever it has been run down. Most any automatic charger with an AGM switch will do...as long as you only charge things when you are present. >>>> AGM batteries have a very low self discharge rate, and if there was no leakage of current, would be very fresh after 3 months of sitting. >>>> If you want a genuine Odyssey charger, you can go with >>>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-12a-odyssey-portable-charger.html >>>> or >>>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-6a-odyssey-portable-charger.html >>>> Both a lot less than the overpriced Battery minder models. >>>> Again, I would NOT leave a charger of any kind on a battery unattended. >>>> There are several unnecessary risks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/6/2017 8:24 PM, Ed Godfrey wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I am looking to get a battery charger/tender and was looking for the Walmart one that Tim had suggested a number of years ago, to charge my Odyssey PC-925 battery. It seems that they no longer carry the WM-2500A model any longer. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what would be a suitable replacement? Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Ed Godfrey >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Virus-free. www.avast.com >> >> >> --- >> Dan Charrois >> President, Syzygy Research & Technology >> Phone: 780-961-2213 >> >> >> >> >> > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus




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