Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:22 AM - Re: Battery charger/minder/tender (Kelly McMullen)
2. 05:48 AM - Re: Battery charger/minder/tender (John Miller)
3. 05:07 PM - Dual battery automatic charger (whodja)
4. 06:04 PM - Re: Battery charger/minder/tender (Bill Watson)
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Subject: | Re: Battery charger/minder/tender |
Dan,
I don't recall where I saw it, but the Odyssey batteries apparently
don't like being charged at too slow a rate or two low a voltage. You
might search for a document on restoring them. I do remember that
somebody came up with a procedure. Don't recall if it was to discharge a
fair amount and then use a constant current charger or something else.
Early failures of Odysseys are not uncommon, either from low use while
finishing a build or other uses that don't fit the normal start the
engine, fly for awhile with alternator set a bit higher than a wet acid
battery...maybe 14.4 volts. I have a charger that was sold specifically
for the Odyssey, (Ultimizer?) that cycles from about 13.3 to 14.6 when
maintaining a fully charged battery. I've got about 3 years on my
Odyssey, with first year finishing build and learning the avionics
before actually flying with it.
Kelly
On 12/20/2017 10:50 PM, Dan Charrois wrote:
>
> I thought I'd weigh in a bit with my own experience on parasitic loads on a PC680..
>
> I have a dual battery configuration, with the idea being that I could power up
avionics, enter flight plans, do pre-start radio calls, etc. off the one battery
(the 680) and not have worry about draining the battery for engine start,
as my other battery takes care of that. Also, the 680 is also connected to the
"always on" pin for two of my EFISes (Advanced Flight Systems) which gives
them a better orderly shutdown, clock maintenance (I presume) and the ability
to run off the 680 as a backup battery if I have to turn my master off in flight
for some reason. It's also connected to the "trickle charge" pin of a TCW
IBBS Nimh battery pack (4mA max) used as a backup battery for other purposes.
>
> Conceptually, it works well. And in practice it *did* work well for the first
little while - even in cases where I hadn't operated the aircraft for a month
and the 680 was under those small parasitic loads for a long time, the voltage
on the 680 measured fine and it ran my avionics for a reasonable amount of
time. But lately I've noticed that my 680 can't maintain a charge for long at
all if under any kind of load. I installed it around 3 years ago (only one of
those years flying, but for the other two, it was installed and under the same
electrical loads as now while I completed construction of the plane).
>
> As long as only a couple of amps are flowing through, it can maintain its voltage
reasonably well before drooping. But if larger loads (ie: 7 or 8 amps) are
present, it drains extremely rapidly.
>
> I'll have to replace the PC680 if I want any kind of reasonable backup operational
time from it. Maybe a 3 year lifespan for a 680 in that electrical environment
is to be expected, but I'm considering if other technologies might be
more appropriate. I don't need the cranking capacity of the 680 in regular use
- my other battery does that. But I am looking for something that can provide
a 10 or so amp draw for as long a period of time as possible while not being
so adverse to parasitic loads. Anyone found anything that meets that criteria?
Or I can just replace the 680 every 3 or so years - there are certainly more
expensive things I have to maintain in the plane :-)
>
> Dan
>
>> On 2017-Dec-14, at 7:53 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> Having ruined a number of 680s during my 10 year odyssey, I've come to the same
conclusions as Kelly has below. I'm a bit late to this discussion but here
one thing I have empirical evidence for; undercharging these batteries will
slowly kill them, slowly but inevitably.
>>
>> Three things I KNOW will do this is
>> Inadequate voltage in aircraft charging circuit (read the spec sheet and
obey it). This seems straight forward but do check that the voltage you are displaying
is the voltage the battery sees. I was measuring the voltage for my
two charging circuits in two different places (EIS and EFIS). Turned out one
was accurate and one was not.
>> Old battery tenders/minders not intended for AGM batteries. During my build,
I had a few left over from my gel cell days in gliders. They will not adequately
charge a discharged 680 but it takes about 1.2 years to discover that.
I'm not sure, but using an old one to just maintain is worse than throwing
the old thing away. If there are tenders/minders on the market now that are
unsuitable for AGM batteries, I wouldn't know, but see Kelly's points below -
you just don't need one, you need an AGM capable charger.
>> Parasitic loads when not in use. My load was fully documented; the clocks
in my (3) GRT EFISs (this has since been eliminated thru an enlightened SW upgrade).
It was a very small load but it was 3X a small load. I have 2 batteries
but the load was connected to only one, which made diagnosis easier but more
expensive. Why is such a small load in a frequently flown plane such a problem?
Didn't grandpa drive cars with electric clocks? That didn't seem to be
a problem. Well it was occasionally a problem. And with AGMs, a parasitic load
seems to be equivalent to undercharging it; the battery is sits in a slowly
declining state then is undercharged the next time it gets hit with the starter
load. I don't know whether that is actually the mechnism but I KNOW a parasitic
load will slowly, inevitably, kill a 680 or 2. I guess you could keep it
on an AGM certified minder/tender but I'd suggest hunting down the load and
killing it.
>> Things will work just fine with any 3 of these conditions for 1-2 years then
they won't. It's a slow death that may mystify you for $awhile$. I have a boat
but 680s make lousy anchors.
>>
>> Speaking of boats, my little jon boat is parked next to my '10. The Walmart/Schumacher
charger with settings for AGM, Lead and Gel Cell(?) batteries worked
fine until I apparently wore it out charging the lead acid trolling motor battery
every other day. I'm going to separate chargers as a result.
>>
>> Regarding 'empirical evidence'; label, log and track your batteries, especially
if you have 2 of the same installed like I do in my Z-14 scheme. That data
is the key to figuring out whether you have slow death problems or not and what
might be causing them. Problems are easily mitigated with a dual batt/alt/bus
Z-14 which is good and bad. It can delay diagnosis of electrical system
problems because they aren't so critical. Which means that you can kill 2 batteries
with one problem before you decide to act.
>>
>> Bill "I KNOW is shorthand for 'ask me how I know and how much it cost me to
figure it out' " Watson
>> On 12/6/2017 10:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>>
>>> The Odyssey is a variant of the AGM technology. I suggest that you do not need
a "tender". You need something that can recharge the battery whenever it has
been run down. Most any automatic charger with an AGM switch will do...as long
as you only charge things when you are present.
>>> AGM batteries have a very low self discharge rate, and if there was no leakage
of current, would be very fresh after 3 months of sitting.
>>> If you want a genuine Odyssey charger, you can go with
>>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-12a-odyssey-portable-charger.html
>>> or
>>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-6a-odyssey-portable-charger.html
>>> Both a lot less than the overpriced Battery minder models.
>>> Again, I would NOT leave a charger of any kind on a battery unattended.
>>> There are several unnecessary risks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/6/2017 8:24 PM, Ed Godfrey wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am looking to get a battery charger/tender and was looking for the Walmart
one that Tim had suggested a number of years ago, to charge my Odyssey PC-925
battery. It seems that they no longer carry the WM-2500A model any longer.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what would be a suitable replacement? Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Ed Godfrey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
> ---
> Dan Charrois
> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
> Phone: 780-961-2213
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Battery charger/minder/tender |
While risking the ire of the battery charger war .. several articles have been
written in the past in Light Plane Maintenance and Aviation Consumer that discuss
whether or not to keep a charger on your battery(ies). You should go back
and research those. Based on those, I purchased a Battery Minder designed specifically
for the 2 PC680s I have in my RV10. Since I dont fly my plane at least
an hour each week (the time required to fully replace the lost charge from
starting) I keep a single Battery Minder connected to my 2 batteries. My first
set of batteries were removed at the 6 year point, and were going strong.
I keep one around the hangar for odd use and 12years on, it is still providing
good amps.
About to fly my newly built RV8 and was debating whether to get the increased cost
Battery Minder when a friend turned me onto the Odyssey built chargers designed
specifically for the Odyssey batteries (they come in 3 different charging
amp versions). I just hooked up the 6amp version ($109 from AutoZone) and it
has all of the capabilities of the Battery Minder except for the temperature
sensor. My friend has been using one for his homebuilt for years and swears
by it.
Bottom line - unless you fly at least 1 hr (continuous flight time) once a week,
your batter(ies) are slowly losing capacity over time..and if you have parasitic
loads on them when in the hangar, a smart charger like the Odyssey or Battery
Minder plugged in while the plane sits in the hangar are an absolute must.
grumpy
RV10 flying 11+ years, RV8 about to fly
> On Dec 20, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Dan Charrois <dan@syz.com> wrote:
>
>
> I thought I'd weigh in a bit with my own experience on parasitic loads on a PC680..
>
> I have a dual battery configuration, with the idea being that I could power up
avionics, enter flight plans, do pre-start radio calls, etc. off the one battery
(the 680) and not have worry about draining the battery for engine start,
as my other battery takes care of that. Also, the 680 is also connected to the
"always on" pin for two of my EFISes (Advanced Flight Systems) which gives
them a better orderly shutdown, clock maintenance (I presume) and the ability
to run off the 680 as a backup battery if I have to turn my master off in flight
for some reason. It's also connected to the "trickle charge" pin of a TCW
IBBS Nimh battery pack (4mA max) used as a backup battery for other purposes.
>
> Conceptually, it works well. And in practice it *did* work well for the first
little while - even in cases where I hadn't operated the aircraft for a month
and the 680 was under those small parasitic loads for a long time, the voltage
on the 680 measured fine and it ran my avionics for a reasonable amount of
time. But lately I've noticed that my 680 can't maintain a charge for long at
all if under any kind of load. I installed it around 3 years ago (only one of
those years flying, but for the other two, it was installed and under the same
electrical loads as now while I completed construction of the plane).
>
> As long as only a couple of amps are flowing through, it can maintain its voltage
reasonably well before drooping. But if larger loads (ie: 7 or 8 amps) are
present, it drains extremely rapidly.
>
> I'll have to replace the PC680 if I want any kind of reasonable backup operational
time from it. Maybe a 3 year lifespan for a 680 in that electrical environment
is to be expected, but I'm considering if other technologies might be
more appropriate. I don't need the cranking capacity of the 680 in regular use
- my other battery does that. But I am looking for something that can provide
a 10 or so amp draw for as long a period of time as possible while not being
so adverse to parasitic loads. Anyone found anything that meets that criteria?
Or I can just replace the 680 every 3 or so years - there are certainly more
expensive things I have to maintain in the plane :-)
>
> Dan
>
>> On 2017-Dec-14, at 7:53 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> Having ruined a number of 680s during my 10 year odyssey, I've come to the same
conclusions as Kelly has below. I'm a bit late to this discussion but here
one thing I have empirical evidence for; undercharging these batteries will
slowly kill them, slowly but inevitably.
>>
>> Three things I KNOW will do this is
>> Inadequate voltage in aircraft charging circuit (read the spec sheet and
obey it). This seems straight forward but do check that the voltage you are displaying
is the voltage the battery sees. I was measuring the voltage for my
two charging circuits in two different places (EIS and EFIS). Turned out one
was accurate and one was not.
>> Old battery tenders/minders not intended for AGM batteries. During my build,
I had a few left over from my gel cell days in gliders. They will not adequately
charge a discharged 680 but it takes about 1.2 years to discover that.
I'm not sure, but using an old one to just maintain is worse than throwing
the old thing away. If there are tenders/minders on the market now that are
unsuitable for AGM batteries, I wouldn't know, but see Kelly's points below -
you just don't need one, you need an AGM capable charger.
>> Parasitic loads when not in use. My load was fully documented; the clocks
in my (3) GRT EFISs (this has since been eliminated thru an enlightened SW upgrade).
It was a very small load but it was 3X a small load. I have 2 batteries
but the load was connected to only one, which made diagnosis easier but more
expensive. Why is such a small load in a frequently flown plane such a problem?
Didn't grandpa drive cars with electric clocks? That didn't seem to be
a problem. Well it was occasionally a problem. And with AGMs, a parasitic load
seems to be equivalent to undercharging it; the battery is sits in a slowly
declining state then is undercharged the next time it gets hit with the starter
load. I don't know whether that is actually the mechnism but I KNOW a parasitic
load will slowly, inevitably, kill a 680 or 2. I guess you could keep it
on an AGM certified minder/tender but I'd suggest hunting down the load and
killing it.
>> Things will work just fine with any 3 of these conditions for 1-2 years then
they won't. It's a slow death that may mystify you for $awhile$. I have a boat
but 680s make lousy anchors.
>>
>> Speaking of boats, my little jon boat is parked next to my '10. The Walmart/Schumacher
charger with settings for AGM, Lead and Gel Cell(?) batteries worked
fine until I apparently wore it out charging the lead acid trolling motor battery
every other day. I'm going to separate chargers as a result.
>>
>> Regarding 'empirical evidence'; label, log and track your batteries, especially
if you have 2 of the same installed like I do in my Z-14 scheme. That data
is the key to figuring out whether you have slow death problems or not and what
might be causing them. Problems are easily mitigated with a dual batt/alt/bus
Z-14 which is good and bad. It can delay diagnosis of electrical system
problems because they aren't so critical. Which means that you can kill 2 batteries
with one problem before you decide to act.
>>
>> Bill "I KNOW is shorthand for 'ask me how I know and how much it cost me to
figure it out' " Watson
>> On 12/6/2017 10:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>>
>>> The Odyssey is a variant of the AGM technology. I suggest that you do not need
a "tender". You need something that can recharge the battery whenever it has
been run down. Most any automatic charger with an AGM switch will do...as long
as you only charge things when you are present.
>>> AGM batteries have a very low self discharge rate, and if there was no leakage
of current, would be very fresh after 3 months of sitting.
>>> If you want a genuine Odyssey charger, you can go with
>>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-12a-odyssey-portable-charger.html
>>> or
>>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-6a-odyssey-portable-charger.html
>>> Both a lot less than the overpriced Battery minder models.
>>> Again, I would NOT leave a charger of any kind on a battery unattended.
>>> There are several unnecessary risks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/6/2017 8:24 PM, Ed Godfrey wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am looking to get a battery charger/tender and was looking for the Walmart
one that Tim had suggested a number of years ago, to charge my Odyssey PC-925
battery. It seems that they no longer carry the WM-2500A model any longer.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what would be a suitable replacement? Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Ed Godfrey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
>
>
> ---
> Dan Charrois
> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
> Phone: 780-961-2213
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Dual battery automatic charger |
I would like to keep both Odyssey batteries on a trickle charger. I previously
saved a photo from a post but I cant identify the model # in this photo. Does
anyone have and idea of the model # in the photo?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476678#476678
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/152a9c0c_e823_4fe1_8f87_e83e3f437041_832.jpeg
Message 4
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|
Subject: | Re: Battery charger/minder/tender |
No charger wars!
But I would challenge one conclusion; "unless you fly at least 1 hr
(continuous flight time) once a week, your batter(ies) are slowly losing
capacity over time". I think the point is that the Odysseys need to be
fully recharged after (most) starts and that it may take a full hour of
post-start flight to fully recharge them.
What I've found and read is that AGM batteries can be left untouched for
long periods of time (2 years) as long as they are stored in a fully
charged state. But anything that results in them sitting around in a
less than fully charged state will slowly but inevitably kill them. My
solution to this is 1) make sure my charging system is charging them at
a high enough voltage (14.1 - 14.7), 2) Get rid of all parasitic loads,
3) If I ever need to power-on the plane without flying it afterwards, I
hook it up to a charger to top it off.
The biggest discovery I made after 5+ years of expensive battery abuse
is that everything I needed to know was documented in the spec sheet
that ships with every Odyssey. I just had to read and obey.
On 12/21/2017 8:48 AM, John Miller wrote:
>
> While risking the ire of the battery charger war .. several articles have been
written in the past in Light Plane Maintenance and Aviation Consumer that discuss
whether or not to keep a charger on your battery(ies). You should go back
and research those. Based on those, I purchased a Battery Minder designed
specifically for the 2 PC680s I have in my RV10. Since I dont fly my plane at
least an hour each week (the time required to fully replace the lost charge from
starting) I keep a single Battery Minder connected to my 2 batteries. My
first set of batteries were removed at the 6 year point, and were going strong.
I keep one around the hangar for odd use and 12years on, it is still providing
good amps.
>
> About to fly my newly built RV8 and was debating whether to get the increased
cost Battery Minder when a friend turned me onto the Odyssey built chargers designed
specifically for the Odyssey batteries (they come in 3 different charging
amp versions). I just hooked up the 6amp version ($109 from AutoZone) and
it has all of the capabilities of the Battery Minder except for the temperature
sensor. My friend has been using one for his homebuilt for years and swears
by it.
>
> Bottom line - unless you fly at least 1 hr (continuous flight time) once a week,
your batter(ies) are slowly losing capacity over time..and if you have parasitic
loads on them when in the hangar, a smart charger like the Odyssey or Battery
Minder plugged in while the plane sits in the hangar are an absolute must.
>
> grumpy
> RV10 flying 11+ years, RV8 about to fly
>
>> On Dec 20, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Dan Charrois <dan@syz.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I thought I'd weigh in a bit with my own experience on parasitic loads on a
PC680..
>>
>> I have a dual battery configuration, with the idea being that I could power
up avionics, enter flight plans, do pre-start radio calls, etc. off the one battery
(the 680) and not have worry about draining the battery for engine start,
as my other battery takes care of that. Also, the 680 is also connected to
the "always on" pin for two of my EFISes (Advanced Flight Systems) which gives
them a better orderly shutdown, clock maintenance (I presume) and the ability
to run off the 680 as a backup battery if I have to turn my master off in flight
for some reason. It's also connected to the "trickle charge" pin of a TCW
IBBS Nimh battery pack (4mA max) used as a backup battery for other purposes.
>>
>> Conceptually, it works well. And in practice it *did* work well for the first
little while - even in cases where I hadn't operated the aircraft for a month
and the 680 was under those small parasitic loads for a long time, the voltage
on the 680 measured fine and it ran my avionics for a reasonable amount of
time. But lately I've noticed that my 680 can't maintain a charge for long at
all if under any kind of load. I installed it around 3 years ago (only one
of those years flying, but for the other two, it was installed and under the same
electrical loads as now while I completed construction of the plane).
>>
>> As long as only a couple of amps are flowing through, it can maintain its voltage
reasonably well before drooping. But if larger loads (ie: 7 or 8 amps)
are present, it drains extremely rapidly.
>>
>> I'll have to replace the PC680 if I want any kind of reasonable backup operational
time from it. Maybe a 3 year lifespan for a 680 in that electrical environment
is to be expected, but I'm considering if other technologies might be
more appropriate. I don't need the cranking capacity of the 680 in regular use
- my other battery does that. But I am looking for something that can provide
a 10 or so amp draw for as long a period of time as possible while not being
so adverse to parasitic loads. Anyone found anything that meets that criteria?
Or I can just replace the 680 every 3 or so years - there are certainly
more expensive things I have to maintain in the plane :-)
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>> On 2017-Dec-14, at 7:53 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Having ruined a number of 680s during my 10 year odyssey, I've come to the
same conclusions as Kelly has below. I'm a bit late to this discussion but here
one thing I have empirical evidence for; undercharging these batteries will
slowly kill them, slowly but inevitably.
>>>
>>> Three things I KNOW will do this is
>>> Inadequate voltage in aircraft charging circuit (read the spec sheet and
obey it). This seems straight forward but do check that the voltage you are
displaying is the voltage the battery sees. I was measuring the voltage for my
two charging circuits in two different places (EIS and EFIS). Turned out one
was accurate and one was not.
>>> Old battery tenders/minders not intended for AGM batteries. During my build,
I had a few left over from my gel cell days in gliders. They will not adequately
charge a discharged 680 but it takes about 1.2 years to discover that.
I'm not sure, but using an old one to just maintain is worse than throwing
the old thing away. If there are tenders/minders on the market now that are
unsuitable for AGM batteries, I wouldn't know, but see Kelly's points below
- you just don't need one, you need an AGM capable charger.
>>> Parasitic loads when not in use. My load was fully documented; the clocks
in my (3) GRT EFISs (this has since been eliminated thru an enlightened SW upgrade).
It was a very small load but it was 3X a small load. I have 2 batteries
but the load was connected to only one, which made diagnosis easier but more
expensive. Why is such a small load in a frequently flown plane such a problem?
Didn't grandpa drive cars with electric clocks? That didn't seem to be
a problem. Well it was occasionally a problem. And with AGMs, a parasitic load
seems to be equivalent to undercharging it; the battery is sits in a slowly
declining state then is undercharged the next time it gets hit with the starter
load. I don't know whether that is actually the mechnism but I KNOW a parasitic
load will slowly, inevitably, kill a 680 or 2. I guess you could keep
it on an AGM certified minder/tender but I'd suggest hunting down the load and
killing it.
>>> Things will work just fine with any 3 of these conditions for 1-2 years then
they won't. It's a slow death that may mystify you for $awhile$. I have a
boat but 680s make lousy anchors.
>>>
>>> Speaking of boats, my little jon boat is parked next to my '10. The Walmart/Schumacher
charger with settings for AGM, Lead and Gel Cell(?) batteries worked
fine until I apparently wore it out charging the lead acid trolling motor
battery every other day. I'm going to separate chargers as a result.
>>>
>>> Regarding 'empirical evidence'; label, log and track your batteries, especially
if you have 2 of the same installed like I do in my Z-14 scheme. That data
is the key to figuring out whether you have slow death problems or not and
what might be causing them. Problems are easily mitigated with a dual batt/alt/bus
Z-14 which is good and bad. It can delay diagnosis of electrical system
problems because they aren't so critical. Which means that you can kill 2 batteries
with one problem before you decide to act.
>>>
>>> Bill "I KNOW is shorthand for 'ask me how I know and how much it cost me to
figure it out' " Watson
>>> On 12/6/2017 10:45 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The Odyssey is a variant of the AGM technology. I suggest that you do not
need a "tender". You need something that can recharge the battery whenever it
has been run down. Most any automatic charger with an AGM switch will do...as
long as you only charge things when you are present.
>>>> AGM batteries have a very low self discharge rate, and if there was no leakage
of current, would be very fresh after 3 months of sitting.
>>>> If you want a genuine Odyssey charger, you can go with
>>>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-12a-odyssey-portable-charger.html
>>>> or
>>>> https://www.batterymart.com/p-obc-6a-odyssey-portable-charger.html
>>>> Both a lot less than the overpriced Battery minder models.
>>>> Again, I would NOT leave a charger of any kind on a battery unattended.
>>>> There are several unnecessary risks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/6/2017 8:24 PM, Ed Godfrey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am looking to get a battery charger/tender and was looking for the Walmart
one that Tim had suggested a number of years ago, to charge my Odyssey PC-925
battery. It seems that they no longer carry the WM-2500A model any longer.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what would be a suitable replacement?
Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed Godfrey
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Dan Charrois
>> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
>> Phone: 780-961-2213
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
---
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