Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:05 AM - Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks (bill.peyton)
2. 10:16 AM - Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks (Bill Watson)
3. 12:21 PM - Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks (Kelly McMullen)
4. 12:23 PM - Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks (Kelly McMullen)
5. 02:00 PM - Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks (Bob Turner)
6. 07:18 PM - ADS-B - is the time now (AirMike)
7. 08:40 PM - Re: ADS-B - is the time now (Bob Turner)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks |
Bill,
Your GS issue is the same issue I had with the archer antennas. So I replaced them
with a tail mounted dipole (cat whisker). Problem solved!
The archer antennas worked great for VOR and LOC reception, just not the GS, which
is not surprising since the GS frequency is in an entirely different band
(330mhz) for which the antenna is not matched. Resulting signal strength is low
and coupled with the directivity caused by the airframe and antenna mounting
location, does not make it an ideal candidate for a GS antenna.
The issue you had with P-static I also experienced, but not on the -10, on a slow
130kt Piper Archer. Total comm failure in IMC. I installed wicks on the archer
and never had the issue again. It's interesting to note that the Piper
had a storm scope installed and that prior to installing the static wicks I would
see numerous false targets. After the wicks the false targets disappeared.
It was fortuitous that Piper actually had an option for the wicks, so it was
easy to add them on.
As far as the -10 is concerned, I built it knowing I would install wicks. I fly
in IMC quite often and have never had static issues.
--------
Bill
WA0SYV
Aviation Partners, LLC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477509#477509
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| Subject: | Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks |
Kelly, I thought I remembered it was you but wasn't sure. Thanks
again! You know if you ever get out east you have a friend at 8NC8 -
anything. And I'm always looking to play it forward.
I was hoping someone would suggest a 2nd Archer because that would be
the simplest thing for me to do at this point. The funny thing is that
everyone mentions the GS being the problem but I clearly have a LOC
problem at KAGC 28, in addition to the GS. Otherwise my GS works
fine. I really haven't done much testing with my second NAV - only
practice approaches and it seems to work fine. Having each NAV hooked up
to it's own antenna would not only boost signal strength but would be a
better backup configuration. Hmmm.
On 1/22/2018 10:27 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> IIRC Bill, I think it was your plane that I assisted with some
> crimpers and/or connectors for your RG400 modifications.
> I think if you replaced that Archer com antenna with a second nav
> antenna so that each of your nav units had an antenna without a
> splitter, your problem on the ILS would go away.
> My previous plane had two navs, one with remote GS and the other with
> built-in GS, all running off one cat whisker antenna, with two
> splitters to get signal to all units.
> On some approaches one of the ILSs would be weak and flakey (technical
> term). I have to Archer Nav antennas, one each to individual nav coms
> with GS. So far I haven't seen any problems.
> Kelly
>
>
> Sent from my IBM-360 main frame
>
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 8:06 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com
> <mailto:Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>> wrote:
>
> <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com <mailto:Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>>
>
> Okay, this is a very valuable thread that is helping me figure out
> a few things that I should have figured out sometime ago. I'll
> share my experiences in the hope it helps others and I'll ask some
> questions looking for more insight.
>
> First, my GPS setup is 100% by the book and works flawlessly.
>
> I originally installed 2 Archers - a Nav and a Comm. The Archer
> Nav is my sole Nav antenna but I had a whip or whisker for my
> other Comm. I long ago got rid of the Archer Comm but I'll come
> back to that. I've made a good number of ILS approaches to
> various airports in IMC. I fly into a good number of larger
> airports and the ILS is assigned by default. Generally no problem
> but I've consistently had problems with the KAGC's ILS for 28.
>
> I've been flying into KAGC a lot over the last few years and I
> often get vectors for the ILS to 28. I noticed that my AP
> generally missed the left turn for the intercept and the GS was
> jumpy. I would just have to disconnect it to hand fly it. I
> gave up on the AP and still found it difficult to get the
> intercept precisely so I just got in the habit of requesting the
> RNAV and have no problems. Recently I decided to try a few in
> VMC and found that the needles were simply unuseable**. I did a
> few more tests at other airports and had no problems with needles
> - steady as a rock. But not at KAGC 28. I've wanted to blame the
> ILS but based on this thread, I'm convinced it's the Archer (my
> Archer is split to feed two NAVs). At this point after 6 years,
> I'm planning to put some whiskers on. It's not that I fly a lot
> of IMC or a lot of hard and low IMC, it's just that I file every
> flight, I work to stay current, most of it is east of the
> Mississippi and sometimes, not always predictably, I do an
> approach to minimums. It all has to work.
>
> I don't really understand exactly what static wicks do, when they
> are most needed and why I might consider them. Based on this
> thread, I think I encountered a single situation where I needed
> them. I'd appreciate your comments and any pointers to more
> information. What happened was this: About 5 years ago I flew
> from NC to Phoenix. Coming into Phoenix from Santa Fe I was up
> over 10K and was slam dunked into Phoenix's airspace. As I
> started a high speed descent I ran through some snow virga (!!)
> and simultaneously lost the Nav radio I was using. I swear there
> was lightening in my peripheral vision. I slowed down, changed
> radios, declared 'unable', got some vectors, and finally put it
> down in sunny Scottsdale.
>
> The radio had been using a whisker antenna but was now dead. Got
> some help from someone here on the list (it's been awhile but
> thanks again) to try and trouble shoot it since I didn't want to
> fly across the country with a single Comm. It stayed dead but
> during the course of flying around Phoenix I discovered that the
> Archer Comm antenna just wasn't performing well enough to be my
> sole antenna for such a cross country trip. So I spent some time
> swapping antenna's on my working radio to get home.
>
> Was this possibly caused by some kind of static discharge? Is that
> what might have killed my radio? Is that what static wicks are
> designed to prevent?
>
> Anyway, I continued to fly with the Archer Comm and actually used
> it as my 'primary' radio. It worked fine most of the time. But
> occasionally I'd have a comm problem and would have to switch to
> get maximum range. Conversely my belly mounted whisker would have
> problems when on the ground and I'd use the Archer. Finally I
> removed the Archer and mounted a 2nd belly whisker. Now when I
> have problems on the ground (KCLT ground at Wilson Air for
> example) I switch to the other radio on the other whisker and I'm
> able to communicate. It's clear to me now that the whiskers far
> outperform the Archer Comm, but that's pretty well understood by
> Archer users. It's a sleek backup solution on the Comm side.
>
> At this point I'm starting to shop for some Nav whiskers and the
> easiest way to add them to my 7 yo plane. I'm thinking that I
> will not be installing static wicks but think I need to recognize
> that as a limitation though I'm not sure how to mitigate the risks
> in that area. I need to learn more there.
>
> Bill "haven't scared myself in the '10 yet and would like to keep
> it that way" Watson
>
> ** so how can a successful ILS be completed in the soup with
> unuseable needles? Jumpy needles overlaying a synthethic vision
> display with a flight path marker can let you convince yourself
> that you just did an outstanding job handflying thru some nasty
> turbulence, as long as you turn off the flight director.... is
> that too much technology?
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>
>
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks |
Yes. I am puzzled by the suggestion that the Archer might not be tuned
for GS. Cat Whiskers and towel bar and blade antennas are all tuned for
108 to 117 Mhz. GS is roughly a 3 times multiple of that, and you should
not be using a GS beyond about 10 nm for approaches, where most
intercepts are between 7 and 4 nm. Signal strength should only be an
issue if using one or more splitters. I figure that having antenna on
each wing tip if there is any airframe blanking that you can just swap
to your other nav for that approach.
Kelly
On 1/23/2018 11:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
> Kelly, I thought I remembered it was you but wasn't sure. Thanks
> again! You know if you ever get out east you have a friend at 8NC8 -
> anything. And I'm always looking to play it forward.
>
> I was hoping someone would suggest a 2nd Archer because that would be
> the simplest thing for me to do at this point. The funny thing is that
> everyone mentions the GS being the problem but I clearly have a LOC
> problem at KAGC 28, in addition to the GS. Otherwise my GS works
> fine. I really haven't done much testing with my second NAV - only
> practice approaches and it seems to work fine. Having each NAV hooked up
> to it's own antenna would not only boost signal strength but would be a
> better backup configuration. Hmmm.
>
> On 1/22/2018 10:27 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>> IIRC Bill, I think it was your plane that I assisted with some
>> crimpers and/or connectors for your RG400 modifications.
>> I think if you replaced that Archer com antenna with a second nav
>> antenna so that each of your nav units had an antenna without a
>> splitter, your problem on the ILS would go away.
>> My previous plane had two navs, one with remote GS and the other with
>> built-in GS, all running off one cat whisker antenna, with two
>> splitters to get signal to all units.
>> On some approaches one of the ILSs would be weak and flakey (technical
>> term). I have to Archer Nav antennas, one each to individual nav coms
>> with GS. So far I haven't seen any problems.
>> Kelly
>>
>>
>> Sent from my IBM-360 main frame
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 8:06 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com
>> <mailto:Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>> wrote:
>>
>> <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com <mailto:Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>>
>>
>> Okay, this is a very valuable thread that is helping me figure out
>> a few things that I should have figured out sometime ago. I'll
>> share my experiences in the hope it helps others and I'll ask some
>> questions looking for more insight.
>>
>> First, my GPS setup is 100% by the book and works flawlessly.
>>
>> I originally installed 2 Archers - a Nav and a Comm. The Archer
>> Nav is my sole Nav antenna but I had a whip or whisker for my
>> other Comm. I long ago got rid of the Archer Comm but I'll come
>> back to that. I've made a good number of ILS approaches to
>> various airports in IMC. I fly into a good number of larger
>> airports and the ILS is assigned by default. Generally no problem
>> but I've consistently had problems with the KAGC's ILS for 28.
>>
>> I've been flying into KAGC a lot over the last few years and I
>> often get vectors for the ILS to 28. I noticed that my AP
>> generally missed the left turn for the intercept and the GS was
>> jumpy. I would just have to disconnect it to hand fly it. I
>> gave up on the AP and still found it difficult to get the
>> intercept precisely so I just got in the habit of requesting the
>> RNAV and have no problems. Recently I decided to try a few in
>> VMC and found that the needles were simply unuseable**. I did a
>> few more tests at other airports and had no problems with needles
>> - steady as a rock. But not at KAGC 28. I've wanted to blame the
>> ILS but based on this thread, I'm convinced it's the Archer (my
>> Archer is split to feed two NAVs). At this point after 6 years,
>> I'm planning to put some whiskers on. It's not that I fly a lot
>> of IMC or a lot of hard and low IMC, it's just that I file every
>> flight, I work to stay current, most of it is east of the
>> Mississippi and sometimes, not always predictably, I do an
>> approach to minimums. It all has to work.
>>
>> I don't really understand exactly what static wicks do, when they
>> are most needed and why I might consider them. Based on this
>> thread, I think I encountered a single situation where I needed
>> them. I'd appreciate your comments and any pointers to more
>> information. What happened was this: About 5 years ago I flew
>> from NC to Phoenix. Coming into Phoenix from Santa Fe I was up
>> over 10K and was slam dunked into Phoenix's airspace. As I
>> started a high speed descent I ran through some snow virga (!!)
>> and simultaneously lost the Nav radio I was using. I swear there
>> was lightening in my peripheral vision. I slowed down, changed
>> radios, declared 'unable', got some vectors, and finally put it
>> down in sunny Scottsdale.
>>
>> The radio had been using a whisker antenna but was now dead. Got
>> some help from someone here on the list (it's been awhile but
>> thanks again) to try and trouble shoot it since I didn't want to
>> fly across the country with a single Comm. It stayed dead but
>> during the course of flying around Phoenix I discovered that the
>> Archer Comm antenna just wasn't performing well enough to be my
>> sole antenna for such a cross country trip. So I spent some time
>> swapping antenna's on my working radio to get home.
>>
>> Was this possibly caused by some kind of static discharge? Is that
>> what might have killed my radio? Is that what static wicks are
>> designed to prevent?
>>
>> Anyway, I continued to fly with the Archer Comm and actually used
>> it as my 'primary' radio. It worked fine most of the time. But
>> occasionally I'd have a comm problem and would have to switch to
>> get maximum range. Conversely my belly mounted whisker would have
>> problems when on the ground and I'd use the Archer. Finally I
>> removed the Archer and mounted a 2nd belly whisker. Now when I
>> have problems on the ground (KCLT ground at Wilson Air for
>> example) I switch to the other radio on the other whisker and I'm
>> able to communicate. It's clear to me now that the whiskers far
>> outperform the Archer Comm, but that's pretty well understood by
>> Archer users. It's a sleek backup solution on the Comm side.
>>
>> At this point I'm starting to shop for some Nav whiskers and the
>> easiest way to add them to my 7 yo plane. I'm thinking that I
>> will not be installing static wicks but think I need to recognize
>> that as a limitation though I'm not sure how to mitigate the risks
>> in that area. I need to learn more there.
>>
>> Bill "haven't scared myself in the '10 yet and would like to keep
>> it that way" Watson
>>
>> ** so how can a successful ILS be completed in the soup with
>> unuseable needles? Jumpy needles overlaying a synthethic vision
>> display with a flight path marker can let you convince yourself
>> that you just did an outstanding job handflying thru some nasty
>> turbulence, as long as you turn off the flight director.... is
>> that too much technology?
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>>
>>
>> ===================================
>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ===================================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks |
Second thought. IF GS were the problem, there are GS antennas that are
typically mounted near the top of the windshield that would also be
easier than installing the cat whisker. And are tuned for GS freqs only,
so rather short.
On 1/23/2018 11:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
> Kelly, I thought I remembered it was you but wasn't sure. Thanks
> again! You know if you ever get out east you have a friend at 8NC8 -
> anything. And I'm always looking to play it forward.
>
> I was hoping someone would suggest a 2nd Archer because that would be
> the simplest thing for me to do at this point. The funny thing is that
> everyone mentions the GS being the problem but I clearly have a LOC
> problem at KAGC 28, in addition to the GS. Otherwise my GS works
> fine. I really haven't done much testing with my second NAV - only
> practice approaches and it seems to work fine. Having each NAV hooked up
> to it's own antenna would not only boost signal strength but would be a
> better backup configuration. Hmmm.
>
> On 1/22/2018 10:27 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>> IIRC Bill, I think it was your plane that I assisted with some
>> crimpers and/or connectors for your RG400 modifications.
>> I think if you replaced that Archer com antenna with a second nav
>> antenna so that each of your nav units had an antenna without a
>> splitter, your problem on the ILS would go away.
>> My previous plane had two navs, one with remote GS and the other with
>> built-in GS, all running off one cat whisker antenna, with two
>> splitters to get signal to all units.
>> On some approaches one of the ILSs would be weak and flakey (technical
>> term). I have to Archer Nav antennas, one each to individual nav coms
>> with GS. So far I haven't seen any problems.
>> Kelly
>>
>>
>> Sent from my IBM-360 main frame
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 8:06 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com
>> <mailto:Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>> wrote:
>>
>> <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com <mailto:Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>>
>>
>> Okay, this is a very valuable thread that is helping me figure out
>> a few things that I should have figured out sometime ago. I'll
>> share my experiences in the hope it helps others and I'll ask some
>> questions looking for more insight.
>>
>> First, my GPS setup is 100% by the book and works flawlessly.
>>
>> I originally installed 2 Archers - a Nav and a Comm. The Archer
>> Nav is my sole Nav antenna but I had a whip or whisker for my
>> other Comm. I long ago got rid of the Archer Comm but I'll come
>> back to that. I've made a good number of ILS approaches to
>> various airports in IMC. I fly into a good number of larger
>> airports and the ILS is assigned by default. Generally no problem
>> but I've consistently had problems with the KAGC's ILS for 28.
>>
>> I've been flying into KAGC a lot over the last few years and I
>> often get vectors for the ILS to 28. I noticed that my AP
>> generally missed the left turn for the intercept and the GS was
>> jumpy. I would just have to disconnect it to hand fly it. I
>> gave up on the AP and still found it difficult to get the
>> intercept precisely so I just got in the habit of requesting the
>> RNAV and have no problems. Recently I decided to try a few in
>> VMC and found that the needles were simply unuseable**. I did a
>> few more tests at other airports and had no problems with needles
>> - steady as a rock. But not at KAGC 28. I've wanted to blame the
>> ILS but based on this thread, I'm convinced it's the Archer (my
>> Archer is split to feed two NAVs). At this point after 6 years,
>> I'm planning to put some whiskers on. It's not that I fly a lot
>> of IMC or a lot of hard and low IMC, it's just that I file every
>> flight, I work to stay current, most of it is east of the
>> Mississippi and sometimes, not always predictably, I do an
>> approach to minimums. It all has to work.
>>
>> I don't really understand exactly what static wicks do, when they
>> are most needed and why I might consider them. Based on this
>> thread, I think I encountered a single situation where I needed
>> them. I'd appreciate your comments and any pointers to more
>> information. What happened was this: About 5 years ago I flew
>> from NC to Phoenix. Coming into Phoenix from Santa Fe I was up
>> over 10K and was slam dunked into Phoenix's airspace. As I
>> started a high speed descent I ran through some snow virga (!!)
>> and simultaneously lost the Nav radio I was using. I swear there
>> was lightening in my peripheral vision. I slowed down, changed
>> radios, declared 'unable', got some vectors, and finally put it
>> down in sunny Scottsdale.
>>
>> The radio had been using a whisker antenna but was now dead. Got
>> some help from someone here on the list (it's been awhile but
>> thanks again) to try and trouble shoot it since I didn't want to
>> fly across the country with a single Comm. It stayed dead but
>> during the course of flying around Phoenix I discovered that the
>> Archer Comm antenna just wasn't performing well enough to be my
>> sole antenna for such a cross country trip. So I spent some time
>> swapping antenna's on my working radio to get home.
>>
>> Was this possibly caused by some kind of static discharge? Is that
>> what might have killed my radio? Is that what static wicks are
>> designed to prevent?
>>
>> Anyway, I continued to fly with the Archer Comm and actually used
>> it as my 'primary' radio. It worked fine most of the time. But
>> occasionally I'd have a comm problem and would have to switch to
>> get maximum range. Conversely my belly mounted whisker would have
>> problems when on the ground and I'd use the Archer. Finally I
>> removed the Archer and mounted a 2nd belly whisker. Now when I
>> have problems on the ground (KCLT ground at Wilson Air for
>> example) I switch to the other radio on the other whisker and I'm
>> able to communicate. It's clear to me now that the whiskers far
>> outperform the Archer Comm, but that's pretty well understood by
>> Archer users. It's a sleek backup solution on the Comm side.
>>
>> At this point I'm starting to shop for some Nav whiskers and the
>> easiest way to add them to my 7 yo plane. I'm thinking that I
>> will not be installing static wicks but think I need to recognize
>> that as a limitation though I'm not sure how to mitigate the risks
>> in that area. I need to learn more there.
>>
>> Bill "haven't scared myself in the '10 yet and would like to keep
>> it that way" Watson
>>
>> ** so how can a successful ILS be completed in the soup with
>> unuseable needles? Jumpy needles overlaying a synthethic vision
>> display with a flight path marker can let you convince yourself
>> that you just did an outstanding job handflying thru some nasty
>> turbulence, as long as you turn off the flight director.... is
>> that too much technology?
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
>>
>>
>> ===================================
>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ===================================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks |
The antenna itself should be resonant at GS frequencies; just that you have a 3/2
wavelength standing wave instead of a 1/2. The issue is with the gamma match
feed point. Its designed so the ratio of voltage to current at that point is
50 ohms, to provide a good match to the coax. But when you have 3/2 wavelengths
(remember the voltage and current standing waves are 90 deg out of phase) that
same feed point will not be 50 ohms. So there will be some mismatch at the
GS frequency, leading to some signal loss.
One thing I notice in this discussion is that most posters dont mention what
nav receiver theyre using. The key parameter is the noise generated in the receivers
front end (first stage). If that noise was zero a coat hangar would work
for an antenna. I wonder if varying reports are partially due to different
receivers, some with less noise than others?
Another common thing: people seem to have interpreted the instructions to read,
you must run the nav light wires along the leading edge. I believe the interpretation
should be, If you must run wires across the antenna, do it like this.
Both Carl F over on vaf and myself simply moved the antenna back a bit, and
ran the nav/strobe wires straight across, well in front of the antenna. Were
both happy with the performance.
If you decide to go with a simple GS dipole on the windscreen (common on 1976
Cessnas) remember that the GS will likely drop out anytime youre on a vector
90 degrees off final - if thats a concern.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477518#477518
Message 6
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| Subject: | ADS-B - is the time now |
I see that Garmin is shipping the all new GDL-82 ADS-B out solution. At $1795 this
seems like an excellent and cost effective solution to meet the ADS-B mandate.
It also works with my old panel mounted Garmin transponder.
Since I already have a scout and and a panel mounted full sized I-Pad, this seem
to fit the bill in a cost effective way.
While I understand that Garmin is back ordered on the item, I am considering getting
in the que. Has anyone pulled cord and installed this item? Inquiring minds
want to know the community's collective opinion.
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See you OSH '18
Q/B - flying 8 yrs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477524#477524
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| Subject: | Re: ADS-B - is the time now |
There are now lots of options. The uAvionics Echo plus their gps or the grt gps
is a few hundred dollars less, and includes ADSB-in.
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477526#477526
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