Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:18 AM - Re: IO-540 hot starts (Bill Watson)
2. 05:36 AM - RV10 cost per hour (Alan Mekler MD)
3. 05:53 AM - Re: IO-540 hot starts (Dan Masys)
4. 06:13 AM - Re: IO-540 hot starts (Kelly McMullen)
5. 06:29 AM - Re: IO-540 hot starts (Tim Olson)
6. 06:31 AM - Re: IO-540 hot starts (Kelly McMullen)
7. 06:51 AM - Re: IO-540 hot starts (Alan Mekler MD)
8. 07:15 AM - Re: RV10 cost per hour (Marcus Cooper)
9. 07:48 AM - Re: RV10 cost per hour (Alan Mekler MD)
10. 08:29 AM - Re: RV10 cost per hour (Marcus Cooper)
11. 11:05 AM - Re: RV10 cost per hour (Tim Olson)
12. 11:45 AM - Re: RV10 cost per hour (Alan Mekler MD)
13. 12:29 PM - Re: RV10 cost per hour (Bob Turner)
14. 01:27 PM - Kudos to Oregon Aero (Rob Kermanj)
15. 01:43 PM - Re: IO-540 hot starts (Dan Charrois)
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 hot starts |
In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff. I don't know the answer to how the
line is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or
boiling fuel downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before
feeding it some cool fuel.
And if it doesn't sputter with the mixture in idle cutoff. I stop
cranking, turn on the fuel pump for 2-3-4-5 seconds with everything
closed, turn it off, and do it again. It always works for me whether
returning to the field and gassing up before returning to the hangar,
or when taxiing from the hangar for fuel before departure.
I can't imaging feeding it full fuel for a cold or hot start. For my
cold start I very smoothly feed it fuel to just past the point where I
set the mixture of a lean taxi. Starts as smoothly as can be. For a
hot start I have to be a bit more aggressive with the fuel because like
you said, "how would any fuel at all get to the cylinders?". But also
have to be ready to pull it back quick when it catches or its goodbye
fuel farm.
Bill "my first fuel injected engine so I don't have clue as to what I'm
doing" Watson
On 5/17/2018 1:13 AM, Dan Charrois wrote:
>
> Thanks, everyone, for your tips and tricks to hot starting an IO-540. I've now
got a few more techniques up my sleeve to try - though the flooded procedure
I'd been using has worked, I certainly don't like it and am anxious to see how
well these other techniques fair.
>
> Admittedly, I haven't tried it yet, but a few people responded with a process
similar to the hot start procedure below and I can't quite figure out how it
would work. If there is no boost pump to pressurize the lines while the mixture
is forward at least a little for a short bit of time, how would any fuel at
all get to the cylinders? Or by mixture lean, is the idea to have it lean-ish,
but not at full idle cut off? Because if the mixture is at full idle cut off
throughout the whole hot start procedure until the engine starts to sputter,
I can't see how fuel would get to the cylinders at all to get it to start to
sputter in the first place. If the intent is to lean but not full cut off, approximately
how lean are people using?
>
> In any case, next time I go flying, I'm going to try a few of these techniques
and see how they go. Thanks again, everyone!
>
> Dan
>
>> On 2018-May-16, at 5:41 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> I do cold starts on my stock Lyc like this - works without fail:
>> Throttle and Mixture full back, Boost Pump on (it stays on until after start)
>> Throttle and Mixture full forward until pressure stops rising quickly - 5-6
seconds, then pull them back. A bit on the long side for cold wx, on the short
side for warm wx.
>> Then exactly what Dave does:
>> Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
>> Mixture lean
>> Crank until it starts to sputter
>> Mixture gently forward
>> For hot starts I follow the same procedure but don't use the boost pump:
>> Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
>> Mixture lean
>> Crank until it starts to sputter (on hot starts it really sputters)
>> Mixture gently forward (some cylinders will misfire for 5-6 seconds but works
the same way)
>> If I do the hot start thing and it doesn't sputter an fire, I give a 2-3
second shot of Boost pump but don't open the throttle or mixture, before cranking
again.
>> No problems once I started using this procedure.
>>
>> On 5/15/2018 9:06 PM, David Saylor wrote:
>>> I do fuel injected hot and cold starts, Lyc and Continental, all the same way:
>>>
>>> Throttle and mixture full forward
>>> Boost pump on for a good squirt. On my plane, I let the fuel pressure build
until it stops rising quickly. That takes 5-6 seconds.
>>> Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
>>> Mixture lean
>>> Crank until it starts to sputter
>>> Mixture gently forward
>>>
>>> Mag switches depend on the airframe.
>>>
>>> This technique gives me start-to-idle RPM right away without the high RPM surge
you hear around the ramp.
>>>
>>> If it doesn't start right away there are often other issues.
>>>
>>> As you suggested, the idea is to create a rich mixture, which leans itself
to the required starting mixture as you crank. I'm not sure I'd call it "flooded".
>>>
>>> A healthy priming shot gets cool, liquid fuel into the system downstream of
the spider. Up to that point all my FWF fuel lines are fire sleeved, so hopefully
they have some degree of insulation against heat.
>>>
>>> If you're worried about degreasing your cylinder walls, I can say mine are
fine after 1800 hours.
>>>
>>> This has worked well for me on RVs, Cessnas, Bonanzas, Pipers, etc.
>>>
>>> Your starter may have a time limit. Stick to that. Mine is 10 seconds, then
it has to cool for 20 seconds.
>>>
>>> I find that a lot of times some batteries can't crank long enough to clear
out the excess fuel and get to the correct mixture. So of course the battery
has to be in good shape, strong enough to crank to your starter time limit. 10
seconds, in my case, seems like a LONG time, especially when it usually starts
in 2-3 seconds. But if I hang in there and let it crank away the excess fuel,
I have pretty good luck.
>>>
>>> If it doesn't start, I usually start over from scratch.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of starting problems are timing related and battery related.
Make sure those things are right and the starting gets a lot easier.
>>>
>>> --Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois <dan@syz.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s,
particularly hot starts.
>>>
>>> My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel
injection system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with. Normal Slick magnetos
(again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.
>>>
>>> For normal cold starts, what seems to work reliably for me is throttle open
1/2", boost pump on, mixture rich for a few seconds (until pressure stabilizes),
then mixture ICO, boost pump off, and then start. As soon as the engine starts,
I go full rich to ensure it keeps going and then usually right away after,
pull the mixture back an inch or so. Pretty uneventful and usually works
without muss or fuss.
>>>
>>> For hot starts (which in my plane seem to be necessary even if the engine's
been off for nearly an hour), based on another discussion I read awhile ago,
I have been doing a flooded procedure: throttle full forward, boost pump on, mixture
rich for about 2 seconds then ICO, leave the boost pump on, and start cranking.
After the engine starts (usually within 3 or 4 seconds), somehow get
the mixture forward and throttle back at the same time. But since I'm not one
of those with three hands, usually the engine surges to relatively high rpm
before I can get the throttle back (I'd tried getting the throttle back first,
but in so doing usually the engine quits before I can get the mixture forward.
Getting the mixture forward right away after the engine fires usually means
the engine keeps running, though I'm sure it's hard on the engine with not being
able to get the throttle back right away.
>>>
>>> There's got to be a better way so hot starts can be reliable while keeping
initial RPM low, to reduce wear and stress on the engine and prop, not to mention
to just come off more professional :-) I saw one discussion awhile ago where
a poster suggested 1/2" throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank
and then if it doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does.
I don't understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the
boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm the
furthest thing from an engine mechanic. Could a hot start procedure really be
just that simple?
>>>
>>> So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming
system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> ---
>>> Dan Charrois
>>> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
>>> Phone: 780-961-2213
>>>
>>>
>>> ===================================
>>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>> ===================================
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ===================================
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ===================================
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ===================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> www.avast.com
>>
>>
>
>
> ---
> Dan Charrois
> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
> Phone: 780-961-2213
>
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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| Subject: | RV10 cost per hour |
Guys,
A friend wants to rent my rv10
What do you think a cost per hour is reasonable ?
Dry vs wet
Regards,
Alan
Ps
He is already on my insurance /cf I/
ATP
Sent from my iPhone
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 hot starts |
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois <dan@syz.com> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s, particularly
> hot starts.
>
> My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel injection
> system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with. Normal Slick magnetos
> (again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.
One thing to be sure to do is to check that your SlickSTART is correctly wired
and producing its sustained spark beginning at TDC. Like timing the engine, pull
one plug from each cylinder. Attach lead to #1 cylinder, set to some few
degrees before TDC, turn on the ignition, and pull the prop slowly through TDC.
If the SlickSTART is functioning correctly you will see a series of bright
sparks beginning at TDC. The SlickSTART wiring diagram is a bit ambiguous and
it is easy to get wrong (ask me how I know ;-) ).
But to totally solve the hot start problem on my factory configuration IO-540 I
replaced the right mag with a SureFly electronic ignition and took the jumper
off the starter switch that grounds the right mag at startup. So both SureFly
and SlickStart fire at TDC on startup. Works like a charm, cold or hot.
-Dan Masys
RV-10 N104LD 1100 hrs.
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 hot starts |
What many fail to appreciate is that the flow divider on top of the
engine has a fuel cutoff valve, which stops fuel flow to the injectors
at around 4-5psi. So whether it is hot or cold start all of the fuel
system except the injector lines from the flow divider is still mostly
full of fuel. So there is plenty of fuel for the engine to start and run
for maybe 5-10 seconds. Whether it continues to run depends on the
mechanical and boost pump delivering the 3-4 gph at 15 psi or greater
that the engine requires at low power to keep running. The flow divider
needs a consistent fuel pressure above 5 psi to deliver fuel to the
injectors and have them atomize that fuel.
As for the initial ignition, the engine requires a fairly rich mixture
in each cylinder to fire enough cylinders to get a start. When hot,
between the fuel that may remain in the injector lines boiling into the
intake manifold and other factors you probably do not have a consistent
mixture for the first 3-4 revolutions of the engine. It may be good and
fire or it may not. Complicating all of the above is the relatively weak
spark that a magneto delivers at cranking speeds. Electronic ignitions
or the Slick Start booster solve that issue by delivering a strong spark
of longer duration during cranking. A strong spark will fire mixtures
that are not ideal. Which is why Dan M and I question whether Dan C's
Slick Start is functioning correctly.
Kelly
On 5/17/2018 3:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
> In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff. I don't know the answer to how the
> line is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or
> boiling fuel downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before
> feeding it some cool fuel.
>
> And if it doesn't sputter with the mixture in idle cutoff. I stop
> cranking, turn on the fuel pump for 2-3-4-5 seconds with everything
> closed, turn it off, and do it again. It always works for me whether
> returning to the field and gassing up before returning to the hangar,
> or when taxiing from the hangar for fuel before departure.
>
> I can't imaging feeding it full fuel for a cold or hot start. For my
> cold start I very smoothly feed it fuel to just past the point where I
> set the mixture of a lean taxi. Starts as smoothly as can be. For a
> hot start I have to be a bit more aggressive with the fuel because like
> you said, "how would any fuel at all get to the cylinders?". But also
> have to be ready to pull it back quick when it catches or its goodbye
> fuel farm.
>
> Bill "my first fuel injected engine so I don't have clue as to what I'm
> doing" Watson
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 hot starts |
I think its because when you shut down the fuel boils out of the injector lines
and the fumes and fuel stay at a somewhat high level In the cylinder for a long
period of time. So it fires even without priming. It will run tough until
new fuel enters the lines though.
Tim
> On May 17, 2018, at 5:15 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff. I don't know the answer to how the line
is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or boiling fuel
downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before feeding it some cool
fuel.
>
> And if it doesn't sputter with the mixture in idle cutoff. I stop cranking,
turn on the fuel pump for 2-3-4-5 seconds with everything closed, turn it off,
and do it again. It always works for me whether returning to the field and
gassing up before returning to the hangar, or when taxiing from the hangar for
fuel before departure.
>
> I can't imaging feeding it full fuel for a cold or hot start. For my cold start
I very smoothly feed it fuel to just past the point where I set the mixture
of a lean taxi. Starts as smoothly as can be. For a hot start I have to be
a bit more aggressive with the fuel because like you said, "how would any fuel
at all get to the cylinders?". But also have to be ready to pull it back quick
when it catches or its goodbye fuel farm.
>
> Bill "my first fuel injected engine so I don't have clue as to what I'm doing"
Watson
>
>> On 5/17/2018 1:13 AM, Dan Charrois wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, everyone, for your tips and tricks to hot starting an IO-540. I've
now got a few more techniques up my sleeve to try - though the flooded procedure
I'd been using has worked, I certainly don't like it and am anxious to see
how well these other techniques fair.
>>
>> Admittedly, I haven't tried it yet, but a few people responded with a process
similar to the hot start procedure below and I can't quite figure out how it
would work. If there is no boost pump to pressurize the lines while the mixture
is forward at least a little for a short bit of time, how would any fuel at
all get to the cylinders? Or by mixture lean, is the idea to have it lean-ish,
but not at full idle cut off? Because if the mixture is at full idle cut
off throughout the whole hot start procedure until the engine starts to sputter,
I can't see how fuel would get to the cylinders at all to get it to start to
sputter in the first place. If the intent is to lean but not full cut off,
approximately how lean are people using?
>>
>> In any case, next time I go flying, I'm going to try a few of these techniques
and see how they go. Thanks again, everyone!
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>> On 2018-May-16, at 5:41 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I do cold starts on my stock Lyc like this - works without fail:
>>> Throttle and Mixture full back, Boost Pump on (it stays on until after
start)
>>> Throttle and Mixture full forward until pressure stops rising quickly -
5-6 seconds, then pull them back. A bit on the long side for cold wx, on the
short side for warm wx.
>>> Then exactly what Dave does:
>>> Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
>>> Mixture lean
>>> Crank until it starts to sputter
>>> Mixture gently forward
>>> For hot starts I follow the same procedure but don't use the boost pump:
>>> Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
>>> Mixture lean
>>> Crank until it starts to sputter (on hot starts it really sputters)
>>> Mixture gently forward (some cylinders will misfire for 5-6 seconds
but works the same way)
>>> If I do the hot start thing and it doesn't sputter an fire, I give
a 2-3 second shot of Boost pump but don't open the throttle or mixture, before
cranking again.
>>> No problems once I started using this procedure.
>>>
>>>> On 5/15/2018 9:06 PM, David Saylor wrote:
>>>> I do fuel injected hot and cold starts, Lyc and Continental, all the same
way:
>>>>
>>>> Throttle and mixture full forward
>>>> Boost pump on for a good squirt. On my plane, I let the fuel pressure build
until it stops rising quickly. That takes 5-6 seconds.
>>>> Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
>>>> Mixture lean
>>>> Crank until it starts to sputter
>>>> Mixture gently forward
>>>>
>>>> Mag switches depend on the airframe.
>>>>
>>>> This technique gives me start-to-idle RPM right away without the high RPM
surge you hear around the ramp.
>>>>
>>>> If it doesn't start right away there are often other issues.
>>>>
>>>> As you suggested, the idea is to create a rich mixture, which leans itself
to the required starting mixture as you crank. I'm not sure I'd call it "flooded".
>>>>
>>>> A healthy priming shot gets cool, liquid fuel into the system downstream of
the spider. Up to that point all my FWF fuel lines are fire sleeved, so hopefully
they have some degree of insulation against heat.
>>>>
>>>> If you're worried about degreasing your cylinder walls, I can say mine are
fine after 1800 hours.
>>>>
>>>> This has worked well for me on RVs, Cessnas, Bonanzas, Pipers, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Your starter may have a time limit. Stick to that. Mine is 10 seconds, then
it has to cool for 20 seconds.
>>>>
>>>> I find that a lot of times some batteries can't crank long enough to clear
out the excess fuel and get to the correct mixture. So of course the battery
has to be in good shape, strong enough to crank to your starter time limit.
10 seconds, in my case, seems like a LONG time, especially when it usually starts
in 2-3 seconds. But if I hang in there and let it crank away the excess fuel,
I have pretty good luck.
>>>>
>>>> If it doesn't start, I usually start over from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> I think a lot of starting problems are timing related and battery related.
Make sure those things are right and the starting gets a lot easier.
>>>>
>>>> --Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois <dan@syz.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi everyone.
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s,
particularly hot starts.
>>>>
>>>> My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel
injection system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with. Normal Slick magnetos
(again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.
>>>>
>>>> For normal cold starts, what seems to work reliably for me is throttle open
1/2", boost pump on, mixture rich for a few seconds (until pressure stabilizes),
then mixture ICO, boost pump off, and then start. As soon as the engine
starts, I go full rich to ensure it keeps going and then usually right away after,
pull the mixture back an inch or so. Pretty uneventful and usually works
without muss or fuss.
>>>>
>>>> For hot starts (which in my plane seem to be necessary even if the engine's
been off for nearly an hour), based on another discussion I read awhile ago,
I have been doing a flooded procedure: throttle full forward, boost pump on,
mixture rich for about 2 seconds then ICO, leave the boost pump on, and start
cranking. After the engine starts (usually within 3 or 4 seconds), somehow get
the mixture forward and throttle back at the same time. But since I'm not one
of those with three hands, usually the engine surges to relatively high rpm
before I can get the throttle back (I'd tried getting the throttle back first,
but in so doing usually the engine quits before I can get the mixture forward.
Getting the mixture forward right away after the engine fires usually means
the engine keeps running, though I'm sure it's hard on the engine with not being
able to get the throttle back right away.
>>>>
>>>> There's got to be a better way so hot starts can be reliable while keeping
initial RPM low, to reduce wear and stress on the engine and prop, not to mention
to just come off more professional :-) I saw one discussion awhile ago where
a poster suggested 1/2" throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank
and then if it doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does.
I don't understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the
boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm the
furthest thing from an engine mechanic. Could a hot start procedure really be
just that simple?
>>>>
>>>> So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming
system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>> ---
>>>> Dan Charrois
>>>> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
>>>> Phone: 780-961-2213
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ===================================
>>>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>>> ===================================
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ===================================
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ===================================
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ===================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> www.avast.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Dan Charrois
>> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
>> Phone: 780-961-2213
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 hot starts |
I meant to explain, and forgot, that the flow divider valve is there to
stop fuel flow to the injectors when you go to idle cutoff, so that there
is little fuel in the injector lines when the engine is shut down. It has
the side effect of keeping enough fuel in the fuel servo and line to the
flow divider to initially fire the engine, once enough pressure is
introduced at the fuel servo and the mixture is moved off cut-off. The
firing that may occur with the engine at cut-off is from residual fuel in
the intake manifold and/or priming. It takes only a few revolutions for the
engine to purge that fuel if the mixture is left at idle cut-off.
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame
On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 6:10 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
> What many fail to appreciate is that the flow divider on top of the engine
> has a fuel cutoff valve, which stops fuel flow to the injectors at around
> 4-5psi. So whether it is hot or cold start all of the fuel system except
> the injector lines from the flow divider is still mostly full of fuel. So
> there is plenty of fuel for the engine to start and run for maybe 5-10
> seconds. Whether it continues to run depends on the mechanical and boost
> pump delivering the 3-4 gph at 15 psi or greater that the engine requires
> at low power to keep running. The flow divider needs a consistent fuel
> pressure above 5 psi to deliver fuel to the injectors and have them atomize
> that fuel.
> As for the initial ignition, the engine requires a fairly rich mixture in
> each cylinder to fire enough cylinders to get a start. When hot, between
> the fuel that may remain in the injector lines boiling into the intake
> manifold and other factors you probably do not have a consistent mixture
> for the first 3-4 revolutions of the engine. It may be good and fire or it
> may not. Complicating all of the above is the relatively weak spark that a
> magneto delivers at cranking speeds. Electronic ignitions or the Slick
> Start booster solve that issue by delivering a strong spark of longer
> duration during cranking. A strong spark will fire mixtures that are not
> ideal. Which is why Dan M and I question whether Dan C's Slick Start is
> functioning correctly.
> Kelly
>
> On 5/17/2018 3:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
>>
>> In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff. I don't know the answer to how the
>> line is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or
>> boiling fuel downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before
>> feeding it some cool fuel.
>>
>>
> =====================================================
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 hot starts |
My hot start technique
Mixture idle cut off
Boost off
Throttle 1/4 inch
As engine fires I rapidly increase the mixture
If you wait too long to increase the mixture the engine quits and then I ha
ve to reprime
Alan
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 17, 2018, at 9:28 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I meant to explain, and forgot, that the flow divider valve is there to st
op fuel flow to the injectors when you go to idle cutoff, so that there is l
ittle fuel in the injector lines when the engine is shut down. It has the si
de effect of keeping enough fuel in the fuel servo and line to the flow divi
der to initially fire the engine, once enough pressure is introduced at the f
uel servo and the mixture is moved off cut-off. The firing that may occur w
ith the engine at cut-off is from residual fuel in the intake manifold and/o
r priming. It takes only a few revolutions for the engine to purge that fuel
if the mixture is left at idle cut-off.
>
> Sent from my IBM-360 main frame
>
>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 6:10 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wro
te:
>>
>> What many fail to appreciate is that the flow divider on top of the engin
e has a fuel cutoff valve, which stops fuel flow to the injectors at around 4
-5psi. So whether it is hot or cold start all of the fuel system except the i
njector lines from the flow divider is still mostly full of fuel. So there i
s plenty of fuel for the engine to start and run for maybe 5-10 seconds. Whe
ther it continues to run depends on the mechanical and boost pump delivering
the 3-4 gph at 15 psi or greater that the engine requires at low power to k
eep running. The flow divider needs a consistent fuel pressure above 5 psi t
o deliver fuel to the injectors and have them atomize that fuel.
>> As for the initial ignition, the engine requires a fairly rich mixture in
each cylinder to fire enough cylinders to get a start. When hot, between th
e fuel that may remain in the injector lines boiling into the intake manifol
d and other factors you probably do not have a consistent mixture for the fi
rst 3-4 revolutions of the engine. It may be good and fire or it may not. Co
mplicating all of the above is the relatively weak spark that a magneto deli
vers at cranking speeds. Electronic ignitions or the Slick Start booster sol
ve that issue by delivering a strong spark of longer duration during crankin
g. A strong spark will fire mixtures that are not ideal. Which is why Dan M a
nd I question whether Dan C's Slick Start is functioning correctly.
>> Kelly
>>
>>> On 5/17/2018 3:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
>>>
>>> In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff. I don't know the answer to how the
line is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or boi
ling fuel downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before feeding i
t some cool fuel.
>>>
>>
>> =========================
===
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 cost per hour |
Alan,
This is a delicate topic since we cannot use the airplanes for hire which includes
both charging someone more than expenses for a flight or renting the airplane.
Others will weigh in, but at most it seems you could charge an easily
justifiable rate that would only cover reasonable expenses.
If hes already on the insurance and this is something you want to make available
to him long term, you might want to consider bringing him on as a partner to
alleviate all of the other issues.
Im curious how this turns out for you as I also know someone who has wanted to
buy into my airplane but Ive held off for a few reasons. Hopefully someone will
offer another solution.
Marcus
> On May 17, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Guys,
> A friend wants to rent my rv10
> What do you think a cost per hour is reasonable ?
> Dry vs wet
> Regards,
> Alan
> Ps
> He is already on my insurance /cf I/
> ATP
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 cost per hour |
Yes
I just want to cover expenses
Alan
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 17, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Marcus Cooper <cooprv7@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Alan,
> This is a delicate topic since we cannot use the airplanes for hire which
includes both charging someone more than expenses for a flight or renting the
airplane. Others will weigh in, but at most it seems you could charge an easily
justifiable rate that would only cover reasonable expenses.
>
> If hes already on the insurance and this is something you want to make available
to him long term, you might want to consider bringing him on as a partner
to alleviate all of the other issues.
>
> Im curious how this turns out for you as I also know someone who has wanted to
buy into my airplane but Ive held off for a few reasons. Hopefully someone will
offer another solution.
>
> Marcus
>
>> On May 17, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Guys,
>> A friend wants to rent my rv10
>> What do you think a cost per hour is reasonable ?
>> Dry vs wet
>> Regards,
>> Alan
>> Ps
>> He is already on my insurance /cf I/
>> ATP
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 cost per hour |
I would recommend taking all of your expenses annually: insurance, hangar, oil,
maintenance, etc, and divide by annual hours flown. I wouldnt think anyone could
fault that logic. It would be difficult to rely on anyone elses numbers as
there are too many personal variables.
Marcus.
> On May 17, 2018, at 10:45 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>
>
> Yes
> I just want to cover expenses
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 17, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Marcus Cooper <cooprv7@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Alan,
>> This is a delicate topic since we cannot use the airplanes for hire which
includes both charging someone more than expenses for a flight or renting the
airplane. Others will weigh in, but at most it seems you could charge an easily
justifiable rate that would only cover reasonable expenses.
>>
>> If hes already on the insurance and this is something you want to make available
to him long term, you might want to consider bringing him on as a partner
to alleviate all of the other issues.
>>
>> Im curious how this turns out for you as I also know someone who has wanted
to buy into my airplane but Ive held off for a few reasons. Hopefully someone
will offer another solution.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>> On May 17, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Guys,
>>> A friend wants to rent my rv10
>>> What do you think a cost per hour is reasonable ?
>>> Dry vs wet
>>> Regards,
>>> Alan
>>> Ps
>>> He is already on my insurance /cf I/
>>> ATP
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 cost per hour |
Personally, I would take it a step further.
It would be VERY easy to run afoul with the FAA and have a very
bad experience, in renting him the plane. I would tell him he
needs to give you $5000 to get an ownership stake in the airplane,
and have him sign something that you prepare that gives him
a small percentage of ownership in it. At least then you have
some written proof and a copy of the bank deposit to show that
he is indeed part owner. There is still the issue that with
the FAA and registration you would not have him listed as an
owner, but you would at least have SOME paper trail. The real
way to do it I think, but I do not have any knowledge of the
process, is to create an LLC to be the owner and then sell the
shares to the partners. Once you are partners in the plane,
expense sharing won't cause any issues.
Tim
On 05/17/2018 10:26 AM, Marcus Cooper wrote:
>
> I would recommend taking all of your expenses annually: insurance, hangar, oil,
maintenance, etc, and divide by annual hours flown. I wouldnt think anyone
could fault that logic. It would be difficult to rely on anyone elses numbers
as there are too many personal variables.
>
> Marcus.
>
>> On May 17, 2018, at 10:45 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes
>> I just want to cover expenses
>> Alan
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On May 17, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Marcus Cooper <cooprv7@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Alan,
>>> This is a delicate topic since we cannot use the airplanes for hire which
includes both charging someone more than expenses for a flight or renting the
airplane. Others will weigh in, but at most it seems you could charge an easily
justifiable rate that would only cover reasonable expenses.
>>>
>>> If hes already on the insurance and this is something you want to make available
to him long term, you might want to consider bringing him on as a partner
to alleviate all of the other issues.
>>>
>>> Im curious how this turns out for you as I also know someone who has wanted
to buy into my airplane but Ive held off for a few reasons. Hopefully someone
will offer another solution.
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>> On May 17, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Guys,
>>>> A friend wants to rent my rv10
>>>> What do you think a cost per hour is reasonable ?
>>>> Dry vs wet
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Alan
>>>> Ps
>>>> He is already on my insurance /cf I/
>>>> ATP
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 cost per hour |
Tim,
Thanks for the advice
Will tell me I cant rent it
Alan
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 17, 2018, at 2:02 PM, Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com> wrote:
>
>
> Personally, I would take it a step further.
> It would be VERY easy to run afoul with the FAA and have a very
> bad experience, in renting him the plane. I would tell him he
> needs to give you $5000 to get an ownership stake in the airplane,
> and have him sign something that you prepare that gives him
> a small percentage of ownership in it. At least then you have
> some written proof and a copy of the bank deposit to show that
> he is indeed part owner. There is still the issue that with
> the FAA and registration you would not have him listed as an
> owner, but you would at least have SOME paper trail. The real
> way to do it I think, but I do not have any knowledge of the
> process, is to create an LLC to be the owner and then sell the
> shares to the partners. Once you are partners in the plane,
> expense sharing won't cause any issues.
> Tim
>
>
>
>> On 05/17/2018 10:26 AM, Marcus Cooper wrote:
>> I would recommend taking all of your expenses annually: insurance, hangar, oil,
maintenance, etc, and divide by annual hours flown. I wouldnt think anyone
could fault that logic. It would be difficult to rely on anyone elses numbers
as there are too many personal variables.
>> Marcus.
>>> On May 17, 2018, at 10:45 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes
>>> I just want to cover expenses
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On May 17, 2018, at 10:12 AM, Marcus Cooper <cooprv7@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alan,
>>>> This is a delicate topic since we cannot use the airplanes for hire which
includes both charging someone more than expenses for a flight or renting the
airplane. Others will weigh in, but at most it seems you could charge an easily
justifiable rate that would only cover reasonable expenses.
>>>>
>>>> If hes already on the insurance and this is something you want to make available
to him long term, you might want to consider bringing him on as a partner
to alleviate all of the other issues.
>>>>
>>>> Im curious how this turns out for you as I also know someone who has wanted
to buy into my airplane but Ive held off for a few reasons. Hopefully someone
will offer another solution.
>>>>
>>>> Marcus
>>>>
>>>>> On May 17, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Alan Mekler MD <amekler@metrocast.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Guys,
>>>>> A friend wants to rent my rv10
>>>>> What do you think a cost per hour is reasonable ?
>>>>> Dry vs wet
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Alan
>>>>> Ps
>>>>> He is already on my insurance /cf I/
>>>>> ATP
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RV10 cost per hour |
Tim is right on here. An EAB airplane may not be used for compensation or hire.
It doesnt say profit; you may not receive anything from others for the use of
your airplane.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480211#480211
Message 14
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| Subject: | Kudos to Oregon Aero |
Hello all,
I wanted to let everyone know regarding my last experience with Oregon
Aero.
I sent in a template for the glare shield for my RV10 and received a
PERFECT fitting glare shield. During the process, several individuals
were in touch with me to make sure everything went well. I honestly
felt that I had a team working for me. Every-time I look at the glare
shield, I am impressed with it=99s fit and nice stitching details.
They should have the template available and if you have not changed
things from the plans, your should be a fit like mine.
for giggles, location is Albuquerque Internacional; RWY 3.
Rob Kermanj
Do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: IO-540 hot starts |
I didn't realize that the flow divider had a fuel cutoff valve and there was still
some fuel in the lines after shutting down the engine by bringing the mixture
to idle cutoff. I'll definitely be modifying my hot start technique next
time I go flying to the suggestions here and see how it goes.
Back when I installed the Slick Start, I did test and it seemed to be working OK,
but that was a while ago and things may have changed. I'm only a few hours
away from doing my next 50 hour inspection - I'll add checking the Slick Start
to my list of things to look at.
Thanks again, everyone!
Dan
> On 2018-May-17, at 7:10 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
> What many fail to appreciate is that the flow divider on top of the engine has
a fuel cutoff valve, which stops fuel flow to the injectors at around 4-5psi.
So whether it is hot or cold start all of the fuel system except the injector
lines from the flow divider is still mostly full of fuel. So there is plenty
of fuel for the engine to start and run for maybe 5-10 seconds. Whether it continues
to run depends on the mechanical and boost pump delivering the 3-4 gph
at 15 psi or greater that the engine requires at low power to keep running. The
flow divider needs a consistent fuel pressure above 5 psi to deliver fuel to
the injectors and have them atomize that fuel.
> As for the initial ignition, the engine requires a fairly rich mixture in each
cylinder to fire enough cylinders to get a start. When hot, between the fuel
that may remain in the injector lines boiling into the intake manifold and other
factors you probably do not have a consistent mixture for the first 3-4 revolutions
of the engine. It may be good and fire or it may not. Complicating all
of the above is the relatively weak spark that a magneto delivers at cranking
speeds. Electronic ignitions or the Slick Start booster solve that issue by
delivering a strong spark of longer duration during cranking. A strong spark
will fire mixtures that are not ideal. Which is why Dan M and I question whether
Dan C's Slick Start is functioning correctly.
> Kelly
>
> On 5/17/2018 3:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
>> In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff. I don't know the answer to how the line
is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or boiling fuel
downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before feeding it some
cool fuel.
>> And if it doesn't sputter with the mixture in idle cutoff. I stop cranking,
turn on the fuel pump for 2-3-4-5 seconds with everything closed, turn it off,
and do it again. It always works for me whether returning to the field and
gassing up before returning to the hangar, or when taxiing from the hangar for
fuel before departure.
>> I can't imaging feeding it full fuel for a cold or hot start. For my cold start
I very smoothly feed it fuel to just past the point where I set the mixture
of a lean taxi. Starts as smoothly as can be. For a hot start I have to be
a bit more aggressive with the fuel because like you said, "how would any fuel
at all get to the cylinders?". But also have to be ready to pull it back quick
when it catches or its goodbye fuel farm.
>> Bill "my first fuel injected engine so I don't have clue as to what I'm doing"
Watson
---
Dan Charrois
President, Syzygy Research & Technology
Phone: 780-961-2213
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