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1. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC (Bill Watson)
2. 06:29 PM - Re: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC (Robert Jones)
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC |
Just one of those days when nothing lined up properly!
No need to overreact though. I know I will continue to pickup
clearances in the air in my uncongested piece of the country but I won't
hesitate to do it elsewhere when needed. Experience has suggested that
it's not the best strategy say in the NYC area where you might get
(quickly) scolded before (quickly) getting the clearance. And it can be
a handful around Miami where there's bound to be a dozen VFR targets
orbiting your climb corridor while ATC tries to locate your plane and
your plan.
I would suggest that if you include "IFR" somewhere in your initial
call-up, you won't be ignored, even in the busiest airspace. And if you
eliminate any mention of a opening an IFR flight plan you'll avoid much
of what happened on that not so fateful day.
Thanks for sharing the experience, I definitely learned some stuff.
On 8/9/2018 5:33 PM, Dan Masys wrote:
>
> Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR departure
> strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in
> NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone
> while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates the
> issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any
> misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology.
>
> A few additional details on my long story:
>
> 1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back
> correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to
> believe the IFR clearance was not yet active.
>
> 2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I called
> Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in the
> system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, here it
> is", followed by "cleared direct TTE."
>
> 3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, and
> asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial code
> given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previous
> controller even more curious.
>
> But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'open
> an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without incident
> literally for decades.
>
> Tailwinds to all,
> -Dan Masys
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC |
I am a professional pilot (not the airlines). I am building an RV10, engine mounted
and cowled with the prop on. I fly my current jet in and out of small fields
with no tower all the time, as well as in and out every class B Airport and
the small ones under the B veil, as well as every place you can think of from
northern Canada and Alaska to the Caribbean and Central America. I do my best
never to depart VFR and pick up my clearance airborne. There are just too many
problems that can arise. One of the problems is radar coverage. ATC cant give
you a clearance airborne if they cant see you yet. Even if they can see you,
you may be too close to another aircraft to give you a legal IFR clearance.
On the ground they can give you a clearance without seeing you because they can
protect the entire airspace you need for your cleared route until you are on
radar. This can cause some delay on the ground while they are clearing the airspace
for you. They also may not own the airspace you are in when you call center,
hence the reply to maintain VFR. Another reason they may tell you to remain
VFR is will have inadequate separation shortly. Sometimes some other entity
owns the airspace you are in. Sometimes the ATC controller is so busy with
their current traffic that they just dont have time to read you a clearance just
then.
On the ground, without a tower, my choices in order of preference are, call whoever
owns the airspace on the RCO frequency, call Flight Service on the radio,
call whoever owns the airspace on a cell phone, and my least favorite is call
the 800 number for Flight Service. Their is also the occasional dialup RCO. A
radio transceiver on he field that is hooked up to a dedicated phone line. Usually
5 clicks on the transmitter and it will dial the programmed number to ATC.
Calling Flight Service on the phone is usually really painful and I try to
avoid it. Most of the time when I am in less familiar territory, which is usually
out in the boonies somewhere, I ask the last ATC controller for a telephone
number for outbound clearance. Then I pick up my clearance on the ground with
my cell phone. If there is no cell phone coverage, I use a land line with a
void time. If I drove a rental car out to some small field to pick up a stranded
aircraft I have found that there is usually someone at the FBO or a local
pilot, who knows the number to call. Sometimes it is taped the the weather computer.
I cant think of anywhere in NORCALs airspace that is not high density. They own
the airspace up to around FL230 in their area. Oakland Center owns the airspace
higher than that. This is a little unusual as the Center Airspace usually starts
a lot lower almost everywhere else.
If you think a Jet pilot knows nothing about operating out of small fields, I would
point out that I have landed at lots of runways with no fuel or even buildings,
runways 50X3800 with a teardrop at each end so we could turn around. There
were dirt 2 track roads into those kind of places. I can fly in the boonies
with anyone. I am also quite comfortable at LAX, SFO, ORD, LGA, JFK, IAD and
DCA.
Robert Jones
> On Aug 10, 2018, at 15:58, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> Just one of those days when nothing lined up properly!
>
> No need to overreact though. I know I will continue to pickup clearances in
the air in my uncongested piece of the country but I won't hesitate to do it elsewhere
when needed. Experience has suggested that it's not the best strategy
say in the NYC area where you might get (quickly) scolded before (quickly) getting
the clearance. And it can be a handful around Miami where there's bound
to be a dozen VFR targets orbiting your climb corridor while ATC tries to locate
your plane and your plan.
>
> I would suggest that if you include "IFR" somewhere in your initial call-up,
you won't be ignored, even in the busiest airspace. And if you eliminate any
mention of a opening an IFR flight plan you'll avoid much of what happened on
that not so fateful day.
>
> Thanks for sharing the experience, I definitely learned some stuff.
>
>> On 8/9/2018 5:33 PM, Dan Masys wrote:
>>
>> Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR departure
>> strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in
>> NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone
>> while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates the
>> issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any
>> misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology.
>>
>> A few additional details on my long story:
>>
>> 1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back
>> correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to
>> believe the IFR clearance was not yet active.
>>
>> 2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I called
>> Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in the
>> system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, here it
>> is", followed by "cleared direct TTE."
>>
>> 3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, and
>> asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial code
>> given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previous
>> controller even more curious.
>>
>> But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'open
>> an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without incident
>> literally for decades.
>>
>> Tailwinds to all,
>> -Dan Masys
>
>
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