Today's Message Index:
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1. 01:33 PM - Re: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC (Bill Watson)
2. 01:54 PM - Re: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC (Parish Moffitt)
3. 03:00 PM - Re: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC (Jesse Saint)
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC |
Funny that I mentioned clearance strategies in the NYC area. I just
returned from a trip that included flying in and out of KFRG Republic
Farmingdale LI. My experience doesn't add anything to this discussion
(Robert Jones laid out the best approach), but I'll share it as a
slightly off-topic point of interest.
I suddenly had to fly into NYC on short notice. Though my destination
was in the Bronx making KHPN Westchester Co the closest satellite AP, I
chose to fly into KFRG because of IFR conditions. I know from
experience that coming from the south to KHPN will result in a minimum
altitude run up through NJ in order to clear all the airline traffic
into Newark, LaGuardia and GA into Teterboro. And while it is busy
overhead it can even be busier down below with all the airports along
that NJ corridor. It can be a very uncomfortable flight VFR or IFR with
rising terrain and low under the Class B shelf traffic. Turned out KFRG
was the right choice and managed to get a perfect little RNAV 01 'T'
approach in actual logged.
Leaving KFRG (or KHPN) back to the south can be a breeze as well with
routing directly over KJFK. Flying that route VFR is always fun with
great views of the City and big heavy overseas flights getting a turn
towards Europe right after they spot the "RV at 6,000". It's just cool!
However, the next leg ended up being NYC to Pittsburgh and that
generally requires a northeast turn to Bridgeport before a wide
circumvention of NYC as you turn west. I got the clearance from the
tower and spent almost 15 minutes getting it all into FF so it could
decipher the Victor airways and then into the G430. Though previous
experience suggested I wouldn't hit many of the waypoints, traffic and
weather were such that I didn't want to add any in the air workload. I
just added the new Sentry product to the cockpit so I now had Nexrad
displayed on my panel GRTs and the FF iPad. Seems redundant but I
really like having both now. Anyway there was a broken line of rainy
build-ups but my cleared route was very doable.... then it suddenly wasn't.
I was cleared to taxi to the 01 but to hold for release from NY ATC.
Overhead a storm appeared in what was clear blue air 15 minutes ago. It
started to rain and the tower said it might be awhile, "there just isn't
anywhere to squeeze you in according to NY". I wasn't going to launch
into what quickly turned into a gusty driving rain. My wife had
fortunately lingered after dropping me off and I joined her in the car
after shutting down. I still didn't believe that the storm appeared out
of no where but playing it back on the iPad showed that it was exactly
what happened, and it happened in 4 to 6 minutes. Just amazing.
After 30 minutes or so the storm moved on a bit and I restarted and
taxied out to the opposite runway only to hold for release once again.
I could easily see that all NYC traffic was now being funneled through
just a few gaps in the storm line and they did not want to add me to the
mix.
With darkness approaching and the chance that my departure be weather
blocked again, I told the tower I was considering departing VFR and
picking up my IFR in the air over Carmel. They advised against it and
warned me that they may not give it to me. I studied the weather and a
VFR plan B and considered it doable. So I asked for a VFR departure and
was cleared for takeoff squawking 1200.
"Well, NY Approach for some reason just released you, do you still have
the original clearance?" Oh yeah, I was 300' in the air still over the
runway but with a wink and a nod the tower let me know that my decision
to depart motivated NY approach to let me in despite the jam.
I love NY ATC! They are fast talking and attitude rich but I lived
there for a dozen years and know that they will respond to a nudge or a
beep of the horn better than a "please, no, after you". Thanks for
letting me win one!
(And if you want to hear NYC Approach doing it's thing so to speak,
check this gem out from July Not angry NY ATC works Aer Lingus Flight
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1r3XZQc4Zo&feature=youtu.be> )
Bill "back home with 2 more approaches in actual and a scud run to
homeplate" Watson
N215TG
On 8/10/2018 6:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
> Just one of those days when nothing lined up properly!
>
> No need to overreact though. I know I will continue to pickup
> clearances in the air in my uncongested piece of the country but I
> won't hesitate to do it elsewhere when needed. Experience has
> suggested that it's not the best strategy say in the NYC area where
> you might get (quickly) scolded before (quickly) getting the
> clearance. And it can be a handful around Miami where there's bound
> to be a dozen VFR targets orbiting your climb corridor while ATC tries
> to locate your plane and your plan.
>
> I would suggest that if you include "IFR" somewhere in your initial
> call-up, you won't be ignored, even in the busiest airspace. And if
> you eliminate any mention of a opening an IFR flight plan you'll avoid
> much of what happened on that not so fateful day.
>
> Thanks for sharing the experience, I definitely learned some stuff.
>
> On 8/9/2018 5:33 PM, Dan Masys wrote:
>>
>> Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR
>> departure
>> strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in
>> NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone
>> while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It
>> eliminates the
>> issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any
>> misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology.
>>
>> A few additional details on my long story:
>>
>> 1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back
>> correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to
>> believe the IFR clearance was not yet active.
>>
>> 2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I
>> called
>> Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything
>> in the
>> system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh,
>> here it
>> is", followed by "cleared direct TTE."
>>
>> 3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk,
>> and
>> asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial
>> code
>> given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the
>> previous
>> controller even more curious.
>>
>> But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to
>> 'open
>> an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without
>> incident
>> literally for decades.
>>
>> Tailwinds to all,
>> -Dan Masys
>
>
> ---
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Message 2
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| Subject: | RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC |
Great story Bill.
I have heard some of the funniest things from NY controllers and I call
two of them friends!
I fly into LGA and JFK for work rather than fun at least once a month
and I did it multiple times per day for a about a year at one point. I
have heard this gentle nudging that you refer to on the ground frequency
at LGA more than once!
Parish =9Cglad to not be based in the North East anymore=9D
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
Funny that I mentioned clearance strategies in the NYC area. I just
returned from a trip that included flying in and out of KFRG Republic
Farmingdale LI. My experience doesn't add anything to this discussion
(Robert Jones laid out the best approach), but I'll share it as a
slightly off-topic point of interest.
I suddenly had to fly into NYC on short notice. Though my destination
was in the Bronx making KHPN Westchester Co the closest satellite AP, I
chose to fly into KFRG because of IFR conditions. I know from
experience that coming from the south to KHPN will result in a minimum
altitude run up through NJ in order to clear all the airline traffic
into Newark, LaGuardia and GA into Teterboro. And while it is busy
overhead it can even be busier down below with all the airports along
that NJ corridor. It can be a very uncomfortable flight VFR or IFR with
rising terrain and low under the Class B shelf traffic. Turned out KFRG
was the right choice and managed to get a perfect little RNAV 01 'T'
approach in actual logged.
Leaving KFRG (or KHPN) back to the south can be a breeze as well with
routing directly over KJFK. Flying that route VFR is always fun with
great views of the City and big heavy overseas flights getting a turn
towards Europe right after they spot the "RV at 6,000". It's just cool!
However, the next leg ended up being NYC to Pittsburgh and that
generally requires a northeast turn to Bridgeport before a wide
circumvention of NYC as you turn west. I got the clearance from the
tower and spent almost 15 minutes getting it all into FF so it could
decipher the Victor airways and then into the G430. Though previous
experience suggested I wouldn't hit many of the waypoints, traffic and
weather were such that I didn't want to add any in the air workload. I
just added the new Sentry product to the cockpit so I now had Nexrad
displayed on my panel GRTs and the FF iPad. Seems redundant but I
really like having both now. Anyway there was a broken line of rainy
build-ups but my cleared route was very doable.... then it suddenly
wasn't.
I was cleared to taxi to the 01 but to hold for release from NY ATC.
Overhead a storm appeared in what was clear blue air 15 minutes ago. It
started to rain and the tower said it might be awhile, "there just isn't
anywhere to squeeze you in according to NY". I wasn't going to launch
into what quickly turned into a gusty driving rain. My wife had
fortunately lingered after dropping me off and I joined her in the car
after shutting down. I still didn't believe that the storm appeared out
of no where but playing it back on the iPad showed that it was exactly
what happened, and it happened in 4 to 6 minutes. Just amazing.
After 30 minutes or so the storm moved on a bit and I restarted and
taxied out to the opposite runway only to hold for release once again.
I could easily see that all NYC traffic was now being funneled through
just a few gaps in the storm line and they did not want to add me to the
mix.
With darkness approaching and the chance that my departure be weather
blocked again, I told the tower I was considering departing VFR and
picking up my IFR in the air over Carmel. They advised against it and
warned me that they may not give it to me. I studied the weather and a
VFR plan B and considered it doable. So I asked for a VFR departure and
was cleared for takeoff squawking 1200.
"Well, NY Approach for some reason just released you, do you still have
the original clearance?" Oh yeah, I was 300' in the air still over the
runway but with a wink and a nod the tower let me know that my decision
to depart motivated NY approach to let me in despite the jam.
I love NY ATC! They are fast talking and attitude rich but I lived
there for a dozen years and know that they will respond to a nudge or a
beep of the horn better than a "please, no, after you". Thanks for
letting me win one!
(And if you want to hear NYC Approach doing it's thing so to speak,
check this gem out from July Not angry NY ATC works Aer Lingus Flight
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1r3XZQc4Zo&feature=youtu.be> )
Bill "back home with 2 more approaches in actual and a scud run to
homeplate" Watson
N215TG
On 8/10/2018 6:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
<mailto:Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>
Just one of those days when nothing lined up properly!
No need to overreact though. I know I will continue to pickup
clearances in the air in my uncongested piece of the country but I won't
hesitate to do it elsewhere when needed. Experience has suggested that
it's not the best strategy say in the NYC area where you might get
(quickly) scolded before (quickly) getting the clearance. And it can be
a handful around Miami where there's bound to be a dozen VFR targets
orbiting your climb corridor while ATC tries to locate your plane and
your plan.
I would suggest that if you include "IFR" somewhere in your initial
call-up, you won't be ignored, even in the busiest airspace. And if you
eliminate any mention of a opening an IFR flight plan you'll avoid much
of what happened on that not so fateful day.
Thanks for sharing the experience, I definitely learned some stuff.
On 8/9/2018 5:33 PM, Dan Masys wrote:
<mailto:dmasys@u.washington.edu> <dmasys@u.washington.edu>
Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR
departure
strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in
NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone
while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates
the
issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any
misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology.
A few additional details on my long story:
1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back
correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to
believe the IFR clearance was not yet active.
2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I
called
Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in
the
system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh,
here it
is", followed by "cleared direct TTE."
3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk,
and
asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial
code
given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the
previous
controller even more curious.
But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to
'open
an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without
incident
literally for decades.
Tailwinds to all,
-Dan Masys
---
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC |
I=99ve had similar experiences when flying around busy airspace. They o
ften want to dive you to a low altitude for arrivals, but I hate dropping 5
000 feet in cruise. If the weather allows, I say I=99ll just go VFR an
d climb 500=99. Usually they either say that=99s fine but keep y
our current squawk. Often enough they say they can keep me at my current alt
itude or give me a slight deviation and keep me high. They would much rather
have you in the system and know who and where you are than have you squawki
ng 1200 and doing whatever you feel like.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse@saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
> On Aug 20, 2018, at 4:31 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Funny that I mentioned clearance strategies in the NYC area. I just retur
ned from a trip that included flying in and out of KFRG Republic Farmingdale
LI. My experience doesn't add anything to this discussion (Robert Jones la
id out the best approach), but I'll share it as a slightly off-topic point o
f interest.
>
> I suddenly had to fly into NYC on short notice. Though my destination was
in the Bronx making KHPN Westchester Co the closest satellite AP, I chose t
o fly into KFRG because of IFR conditions. I know from experience that comi
ng from the south to KHPN will result in a minimum altitude run up through N
J in order to clear all the airline traffic into Newark, LaGuardia and GA i
nto Teterboro. And while it is busy overhead it can even be busier down bel
ow with all the airports along that NJ corridor. It can be a very uncomfort
able flight VFR or IFR with rising terrain and low under the Class B shelf t
raffic. Turned out KFRG was the right choice and managed to get a perfect l
ittle RNAV 01 'T' approach in actual logged.
>
> Leaving KFRG (or KHPN) back to the south can be a breeze as well with rout
ing directly over KJFK. Flying that route VFR is always fun with great view
s of the City and big heavy overseas flights getting a turn towards Europe r
ight after they spot the "RV at 6,000". It's just cool!
>
> However, the next leg ended up being NYC to Pittsburgh and that generally r
equires a northeast turn to Bridgeport before a wide circumvention of NYC a
s you turn west. I got the clearance from the tower and spent almost 15 min
utes getting it all into FF so it could decipher the Victor airways and then
into the G430. Though previous experience suggested I wouldn't hit many of t
he waypoints, traffic and weather were such that I didn't want to add any in
the air workload. I just added the new Sentry product to the cockpit so I
now had Nexrad displayed on my panel GRTs and the FF iPad. Seems redundant
but I really like having both now. Anyway there was a broken line of rainy
build-ups but my cleared route was very doable.... then it suddenly wasn't.
>
> I was cleared to taxi to the 01 but to hold for release from NY ATC. Over
head a storm appeared in what was clear blue air 15 minutes ago. It started
to rain and the tower said it might be awhile, "there just isn't anywhere t
o squeeze you in according to NY". I wasn't going to launch into what quick
ly turned into a gusty driving rain. My wife had fortunately lingered after
dropping me off and I joined her in the car after shutting down. I still d
idn't believe that the storm appeared out of no where but playing it back on
the iPad showed that it was exactly what happened, and it happened in 4 to 6
minutes. Just amazing.
>
> After 30 minutes or so the storm moved on a bit and I restarted and taxied
out to the opposite runway only to hold for release once again. I could ea
sily see that all NYC traffic was now being funneled through just a few gaps
in the storm line and they did not want to add me to the mix.
>
> With darkness approaching and the chance that my departure be weather bloc
ked again, I told the tower I was considering departing VFR and picking up m
y IFR in the air over Carmel. They advised against it and warned me that th
ey may not give it to me. I studied the weather and a VFR plan B and consid
ered it doable. So I asked for a VFR departure and was cleared for takeoff s
quawking 1200.
>
> "Well, NY Approach for some reason just released you, do you still have th
e original clearance?" Oh yeah, I was 300' in the air still over the runway
but with a wink and a nod the tower let me know that my decision to depart
motivated NY approach to let me in despite the jam.
>
> I love NY ATC! They are fast talking and attitude rich but I lived there f
or a dozen years and know that they will respond to a nudge or a beep of the
horn better than a "please, no, after you". Thanks for letting me win one!
>
> (And if you want to hear NYC Approach doing it's thing so to speak, check t
his gem out from July Not angry NY ATC works Aer Lingus Flight )
>
> Bill "back home with 2 more approaches in actual and a scud run to homepla
te" Watson
> N215TG
>
>> On 8/10/2018 6:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
>>
>> Just one of those days when nothing lined up properly!
>>
>> No need to overreact though. I know I will continue to pickup clearances
in the air in my uncongested piece of the country but I won't hesitate to d
o it elsewhere when needed. Experience has suggested that it's not the best
strategy say in the NYC area where you might get (quickly) scolded before (
quickly) getting the clearance. And it can be a handful around Miami where t
here's bound to be a dozen VFR targets orbiting your climb corridor while AT
C tries to locate your plane and your plan.
>>
>> I would suggest that if you include "IFR" somewhere in your initial call
-up, you won't be ignored, even in the busiest airspace. And if you elimina
te any mention of a opening an IFR flight plan you'll avoid much of what hap
pened on that not so fateful day.
>>
>> Thanks for sharing the experience, I definitely learned some stuff.
>>
>>> On 8/9/2018 5:33 PM, Dan Masys wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR departur
e
>>> strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in
>>> NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone
>>> while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates
the
>>> issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any
>>> misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology.
>>>
>>> A few additional details on my long story:
>>>
>>> 1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back
>>> correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to
>>> believe the IFR clearance was not yet active.
>>>
>>> 2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I ca
lled
>>> Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in
the
>>> system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, her
e it
>>> is", followed by "cleared direct TTE."
>>>
>>> 3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, an
d
>>> asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial cod
e
>>> given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previ
ous
>>> controller even more curious.
>>>
>>> But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'o
pen
>>> an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without inci
dent
>>> literally for decades.
>>>
>>> Tailwinds to all,
>>> -Dan Masys
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
>
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