Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:41 AM - Re: Brakes have me stumped (Carl Froehlich)
2. 08:06 AM - Re: Brakes have me stumped (Lenny Iszak)
3. 08:13 AM - brakes (dlm)
4. 08:18 AM - Re: brakes (Kelly McMullen)
5. 09:25 AM - Re: brakes (Tim Olson)
6. 11:12 AM - Re: Brakes have me stumped (David Carr)
7. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: Brakes have me stumped (David Carr)
8. 12:37 PM - Re: Brakes have me stumped (Lenny Iszak)
9. 07:42 PM - Re: Re: Brakes have me stumped (JOHN MILLER)
10. 10:13 PM - Re: Re: Brakes have me stumped (Peter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
I had the left brake drag on the RV-10 at about the 100 hour point. It was s
o bad the left tire lost most of its inside tread.
The problem was a rolled O ring on the brake caliper piston. I replaced the
O ring with a standard one from Van=99s and it has been trouble free f
or 500 hours.
I agree that it looks like the brake pad rivets were squeezed too tight.
Carl
> On Apr 29, 2019, at 12:28 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Looking at your photos, yes, it is possible they got a bit hot. However, i
t is also possible the rivets were squeezed a little too tight. That will ca
use cracking around the rivets.
> They only need to be tight enough that you can't move the pad on the backi
ng plate by hand.
> Sent from my TRS-80 Model 100
>
>
>> On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 8:42 PM David Carr <junk@dcarr.org> wrote:
>> Hi list,
>>
>> The brakes have me stumped. I recently removed my brake linings (Matco b
rakes) and found that they were showing checking/cracking as shown the attac
hed photos. In speaking with Matco, I learned that this is caused by excess
ive heat which is likely caused by the brakes dragging.
>>
>> Matco suggested that I should be able to squeeze the brake pistons by han
d and cause them to retract (makes sense). Unfortunately, this was very dif
ficult to do with mine, indicating there is some sort of restriction To nar
row this down I sequentially:
>> - Bypassed the notorious parking brake valve
>> - Disconnected the master cylinder pushrods from the pedals to ensure the
y're fully extended
>> - Removed the reservoir cap (why not)
>>
>> Despite these changes I still find it very difficult to squeeze the pisto
ns in. I'm starting to wonder if it's possible that a) my -3 Bonaco brake l
ines are restrictive, b) there's another problem I haven't thought of, or c)
that is is all a wild goose chase and it's always hard to squeeze the pisto
ns in.
>>
>> Any ideas out there? I'd appreciate the help.
>>
>> David
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
Mine has been doing that for a while and I think i just now fixed it.
The discs were warped and that was overheating the calipers/pads even when not
using the brakes.
Replacing the discs only didn't help. Adding return springs on the master cylinders
didn't help.
The pads crack just as well with Matco's SwiftLine pad/shoe that they rivet together
themselves. So I doubt it's an oversqueezed rivet problem. Plus the whole
pad looks charred by the time it cracks around the rivet holes.
This time around I replaced the shoes, pads, the pins, everything. Also put thermocouples
on both calipers. AFS has two TIT thermocouples inputs so my caliper
temps are showing on the screen.
The one thing I learned from that exercise is that when I hold onto the brakes
after landing i can see the temps zoom up above 200F in seconds, otherwise they
stay below 130F.
Just tap them and let go and the heat from the disc won't have time to transfer
over to the pads.
Lenny
--------
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001
Message 3
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David Carr; call me if you wish to discuss. I had Cleveland to start, then
Matco prototypes, and now Grove.
Message 4
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Are you happy with the Grove? Do you feel they are worth the expense?
I'm not particularly happy with the Cleveland.
On 4/29/2019 8:02 AM, dlm wrote:
> David Carr; call me if you wish to discuss. I had Cleveland to start,
> then Matco prototypes, and now Grove.
Message 5
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I can't comment on Matco, since I have no experience with them. On the
Grove though, that's the RV-14's standard, I did find one thing I didn't
like. Most of the parts like axles and everything are very nice.
But, the plates that the linings rivet to are very easy to damage
when driving out the old rivets. Twice I've elongated the holes
for the rivets on the plates when the press wasn't quite centered
perfectly. Yeah, that's part my fault. But, the metal used is
soft enough that it doesn't force the punch to push the rivet out
through the hole...it allows the punch to make a bigger hole.
So I've had to replace the plates 2 times, and bought spares
to keep on hand as well.
If it weren't for that, I'd say they were just fine. I don't
find the systems so incredibly different from eachother.
Tim
On 4/29/19 10:18 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> Are you happy with the Grove? Do you feel they are worth the expense?
> I'm not particularly happy with the Cleveland.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
Lots of good stuff here.
Bob - The inner pads did seem tight on the spacers so I am replacing those
along with the pads. I'm pretty sure the pedals are not sticking. I have
a single long pivot bolt to reduce friction and they don't seem to move
when I pull them "back" to release further.
Peter - The Matco brakes have aluminum pistons. I had no idea that you
could make brake pistons out of bakelite, very interesting.
David
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 11:49 PM Bob Leffler <bob@thelefflers.com> wrote:
> I went through this a couple years ago.
>
> 1. I installed return springs on the cylinders to ensure they were wide
> open when not depressed.
>
> 2. I had an incident in which I had to taxi back to the hangar with
> higher than normal rpm. This got everything extremely hot. I was
> having all kinds of problems getting decent life out the pads afterwards.
> I had to replace the rotors and the spacers because they became deforme
d
> due to the heat. The spacers can also flare at the ends if they are ove
r
> torqued and hit up. What I found was the the various parts were hanging
> up and not moving freely.
>
> If the inner shoe pad doesn=99t move freely, you may want to examin
e the
> spacer they ride on. Similarly there is another set of spacers the
> calipers ride on. Can you move either of these freely with you hands?
>
> Have you checked your rotors to ensure they aren=99t warped? The
same goes
> for the plate that the pads are riveted. They can warp if over heated t
o.
>
> It wasn=99t until I replaced all of these that brakes started funct
ioning
> properly. I can=99t say these are your issues, but it does give yo
u other
> things to check.
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of David Carr <
> junk@dcarr.org>
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:50 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RV10-List: Brakes have me stumped
>
> Hi list,
>
> The brakes have me stumped. I recently removed my brake linings (Matco
> brakes) and found that they were showing checking/cracking as shown the
> attached photos. In speaking with Matco, I learned that this is caused b
y
> excessive heat which is likely caused by the brakes dragging.
>
> Matco suggested that I should be able to squeeze the brake pistons by han
d
> and cause them to retract (makes sense). Unfortunately, this was very
> difficult to do with mine, indicating there is some sort of restriction.
> To narrow this down I sequentially:
> - Bypassed the notorious parking brake valve
> - Disconnected the master cylinder pushrods from the pedals to ensure
> they're fully extended
> - Removed the reservoir cap (why not)
>
> Despite these changes I still find it very difficult to squeeze the
> pistons in. I'm starting to wonder if it's possible that a) my -3 Bonaco
> brake lines are restrictive, b) there's another problem I haven't thought
> of, or c) that is is all a wild goose chase and it's always hard to squee
ze
> the pistons in.
>
> Any ideas out there? I'd appreciate the help.
>
> David
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
Lenny,
This is very interesting. How did you determine that the discs were warped
or was it obvious? Hopefully you've found the issue now!
David
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:10 AM Lenny Iszak <lenard@rapiddecision.com>
wrote:
>
> Mine has been doing that for a while and I think i just now fixed it.
> The discs were warped and that was overheating the calipers/pads even when
> not using the brakes.
>
> Replacing the discs only didn't help. Adding return springs on the master
> cylinders didn't help.
>
> The pads crack just as well with Matco's SwiftLine pad/shoe that they
> rivet together themselves. So I doubt it's an oversqueezed rivet problem.
> Plus the whole pad looks charred by the time it cracks around the rivet
> holes.
>
> This time around I replaced the shoes, pads, the pins, everything. Also
> put thermocouples on both calipers. AFS has two TIT thermocouples inputs so
> my caliper temps are showing on the screen.
>
> The one thing I learned from that exercise is that when I hold onto the
> brakes after landing i can see the temps zoom up above 200F in seconds,
> otherwise they stay below 130F.
> Just tap them and let go and the heat from the disc won't have time to
> transfer over to the pads.
>
> Lenny
>
> --------
> Lenny Iszak
> Palm City, FL
> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
Clearly visible. Attached some pictures.
Lenny
digidocs wrote:
> Lenny,
>
> This is very interesting. How did you determine that the discs were warped or
was it obvious? Hopefully you've found the issue now!
>
>
> David
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:10 AM Lenny Iszak wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Mine has been doing that for a while and I think i just now fixed it.
> > The discs were warped and that was overheating the calipers/pads even when
not using the brakes.
> >
> > Replacing the discs only didn't help. Adding return springs on the master
cylinders didn't help.
> >
> > The pads crack just as well with Matco's SwiftLine pad/shoe that they rivet
together themselves. So I doubt it's an oversqueezed rivet problem. Plus the
whole pad looks charred by the time it cracks around the rivet holes.
> >
> > This time around I replaced the shoes, pads, the pins, everything. Also put
thermocouples on both calipers. AFS has two TIT thermocouples inputs so my caliper
temps are showing on the screen.
> >
> > The one thing I learned from that exercise is that when I hold onto the brakes
after landing i can see the temps zoom up above 200F in seconds, otherwise
they stay below 130F.
> > Just tap them and let go and the heat from the disc won't have time to transfer
over to the pads.
> >
> > Lenny
> >
> > --------
> > Lenny Iszak
> > Palm City, FL
> > 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==========
> > -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> > ==========
> > FORUMS -
> > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> > ==========
> > WIKI -
> > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> > ==========
> > b Site -
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > ==========
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489014#489014
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0453_752.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0449_175.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0444_471.jpg
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
At the risk of being tard and feathered by the crowd, let me offer a thought on
using brakes in GA aircraft, especially RVs.
Biggest problem with brakes is usually related to the pilot.
Back a long time ago when military brakes were not what they are today, pilots
were taught to never ride the brakes . when you need them, step on them and then
get your feet off the brakes. Reason was the brakes (and they were disc brakes
then) would overheat quickly, which was not a good thing. The pilot risked
one of the following: brakes would fade and give no stopping power; brakes
would lock up; brake pucks would spring a leak due to heat and start a fire; etc,
etc. Mil 6606 brake will burn very hot and fast.
Fast forward to today. As a CFI, I am constantly battling pilots who like to ride
the brakes .. whether they realize it or not. It is easier to ride the brakes
in an RV than in other GA planes just because of the way the pedals are made
and how they are installed. It is far too easy to ride the brakes when merely
thinking you are only applying rudder when in fact you are inadvertantly
applying some brake pressure as well.
And how about those long taxi routes to the runway or ramp? Do you ride the brakes
to keep your speed constant on a long taxiway? (the wrong way)
Or do you let the bird coast (with increasing speed) and then apply brakes quickly
to slow down, then immediately get off the brakes and start the coast process
again? (the right way)
Same thing with slowing down after landing on the runway ,,,,, do you ride the
brakes to slow down gradually and then keep your feet on the brakes to turnoff?
Or do you apply moderate, constant pressure to start slowing down . and then get
off the brakes totally and coast a bit, then reapply brakes again?
Remember .. if you get on the brakes (moderate pressure) to use them, and then
immediately get off of them, you wont generate near as much head on the disc's
as if you use a constant pressure on themI am 12 years on the same MATCO discs
and have change pads once.
Just saying. Much of the brake problems in the RV's are not who makes the pads
or the discs..it is how you use them.
Oh, dont forget to let her roll to the far end of the runway to turn off rather
than stepping on the brakes to make the closer turnoff whenever you have the
option.
grumpy
N184JM
> On Apr 29, 2019, at 2:36 PM, Lenny Iszak <lenard@rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>
>
> Clearly visible. Attached some pictures.
>
> Lenny
>
>
>
> digidocs wrote:
>> Lenny,
>>
>> This is very interesting. How did you determine that the discs were warped
or was it obvious? Hopefully you've found the issue now!
>>
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:10 AM Lenny Iszak wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Mine has been doing that for a while and I think i just now fixed it.
>>> The discs were warped and that was overheating the calipers/pads even when
not using the brakes.
>>>
>>> Replacing the discs only didn't help. Adding return springs on the master cylinders
didn't help.
>>>
>>> The pads crack just as well with Matco's SwiftLine pad/shoe that they rivet
together themselves. So I doubt it's an oversqueezed rivet problem. Plus the
whole pad looks charred by the time it cracks around the rivet holes.
>>>
>>> This time around I replaced the shoes, pads, the pins, everything. Also put
thermocouples on both calipers. AFS has two TIT thermocouples inputs so my caliper
temps are showing on the screen.
>>>
>>> The one thing I learned from that exercise is that when I hold onto the brakes
after landing i can see the temps zoom up above 200F in seconds, otherwise
they stay below 130F.
>>> Just tap them and let go and the heat from the disc won't have time to transfer
over to the pads.
>>>
>>> Lenny
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Lenny Iszak
>>> Palm City, FL
>>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --------
> Lenny Iszak
> Palm City, FL
> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489014#489014
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0453_752.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0449_175.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0444_471.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
John,
this is what I expierienced too in my flight club in Bielefeld - Germany.
One reason is for sure, that the engine idle speed is often too high. Before I
read about Mike Bush, I run the engines on the Cessnas, Pipers and Cirrus at 1.200rpm
while taxiing, because the self made checklists from the club said this
to prevent spark plug fouling at lower rpm. Since I lean the engines to max.
rpm/best power on the ground, I rearely use the brakes on taxiing....
Like you said: Human factor :o)
David,
the bakelite pistons are great while preventing corrosion to the brake calipers,
but have their downsides...
On my Dodge Charger SRT-8 I had to change all the metal pistons (six per side at
front axle)at about 100.000 KM for corrosion problems...
Von meinem iPad gesendet
> Am 30.04.2019 um 04:52 schrieb JOHN MILLER <gengrumpy@aol.com>:
>
>
> At the risk of being tard and feathered by the crowd, let me offer a thought
on using brakes in GA aircraft, especially RVs.
>
> Biggest problem with brakes is usually related to the pilot.
>
> Back a long time ago when military brakes were not what they are today, pilots
were taught to never ride the brakes . when you need them, step on them and
then get your feet off the brakes. Reason was the brakes (and they were disc
brakes then) would overheat quickly, which was not a good thing. The pilot risked
one of the following: brakes would fade and give no stopping power; brakes
would lock up; brake pucks would spring a leak due to heat and start a fire;
etc, etc. Mil 6606 brake will burn very hot and fast.
>
> Fast forward to today. As a CFI, I am constantly battling pilots who like to
ride the brakes .. whether they realize it or not. It is easier to ride the
brakes in an RV than in other GA planes just because of the way the pedals are
made and how they are installed. It is far too easy to ride the brakes when
merely thinking you are only applying rudder when in fact you are inadvertantly
applying some brake pressure as well.
>
> And how about those long taxi routes to the runway or ramp? Do you ride the
brakes to keep your speed constant on a long taxiway? (the wrong way)
>
> Or do you let the bird coast (with increasing speed) and then apply brakes quickly
to slow down, then immediately get off the brakes and start the coast process
again? (the right way)
>
> Same thing with slowing down after landing on the runway ,,,,, do you ride the
brakes to slow down gradually and then keep your feet on the brakes to turnoff?
>
> Or do you apply moderate, constant pressure to start slowing down . and then
get off the brakes totally and coast a bit, then reapply brakes again?
>
> Remember .. if you get on the brakes (moderate pressure) to use them, and then
immediately get off of them, you wont generate near as much head on the disc's
as if you use a constant pressure on themI am 12 years on the same MATCO discs
and have change pads once.
>
> Just saying. Much of the brake problems in the RV's are not who makes the pads
or the discs..it is how you use them.
>
> Oh, dont forget to let her roll to the far end of the runway to turn off rather
than stepping on the brakes to make the closer turnoff whenever you have the
option.
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
>> On Apr 29, 2019, at 2:36 PM, Lenny Iszak <lenard@rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Clearly visible. Attached some pictures.
>>
>> Lenny
>>
>>
>>
>> digidocs wrote:
>>> Lenny,
>>>
>>> This is very interesting. How did you determine that the discs were warped
or was it obvious? Hopefully you've found the issue now!
>>>
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:10 AM Lenny Iszak wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mine has been doing that for a while and I think i just now fixed it.
>>>> The discs were warped and that was overheating the calipers/pads even when
not using the brakes.
>>>>
>>>> Replacing the discs only didn't help. Adding return springs on the master
cylinders didn't help.
>>>>
>>>> The pads crack just as well with Matco's SwiftLine pad/shoe that they rivet
together themselves. So I doubt it's an oversqueezed rivet problem. Plus the
whole pad looks charred by the time it cracks around the rivet holes.
>>>>
>>>> This time around I replaced the shoes, pads, the pins, everything. Also put
thermocouples on both calipers. AFS has two TIT thermocouples inputs so my caliper
temps are showing on the screen.
>>>>
>>>> The one thing I learned from that exercise is that when I hold onto the brakes
after landing i can see the temps zoom up above 200F in seconds, otherwise
they stay below 130F.
>>>> Just tap them and let go and the heat from the disc won't have time to transfer
over to the pads.
>>>>
>>>> Lenny
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Lenny Iszak
>>>> Palm City, FL
>>>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------
>> Lenny Iszak
>> Palm City, FL
>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489014#489014
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0453_752.jpg
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0449_175.jpg
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0444_471.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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