Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:33 AM - Re: Re: Brakes have me stumped (Jack Philips)
2. 04:57 AM - Brakes (Terry Moushon)
3. 05:14 AM - Re: Re: Brakes have me stumped (Carlos Trigo)
4. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Brakes have me stumped (Jack Philips)
5. 04:37 PM - Re: Brakes have me stumped (woxofswa)
6. 06:10 PM - Re: Brakes have me stumped (Bob Turner)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
Well said, General! As a Seaplane CFI teaching in a Cessna on amphibious floats
(which have castering nosewheels steered by braking, just like an RV-10), I
spend the first 15 minutes teaching a student just how to taxi the floatplane,
and invariably they want to ride the brakes, even on takeoff. On landing, they
want to stop quickly and then turn around to back taxi to the ramp (we don't
have a taxiway on our runway, so back-taxiing is the norm). I always point
out that "runway is cheaper than brakes", and have them gradually slow down,
without using the brakes any more than necessary.
Part of the problem with the RV-10 brakes is the efficient, fully enclosed wheel
pants that don't allow a lot of cooling air to reach the brakes, compared to
older designs that usually did not enclose the brakes. Keep that in mind when
using your brakes.
Jack Phillips
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
RV-10 #40610 - In the Paint Shop. Should fly for the first time in early June
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN MILLER
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Brakes have me stumped
At the risk of being tard and feathered by the crowd, let me offer a thought on
using brakes in GA aircraft, especially RVs.
Biggest problem with brakes is usually related to the pilot.
Back a long time ago when military brakes were not what they are today, pilots
were taught to never ride the brakes . when you need them, step on them and then
get your feet off the brakes. Reason was the brakes (and they were disc brakes
then) would overheat quickly, which was not a good thing. The pilot risked
one of the following: brakes would fade and give no stopping power; brakes
would lock up; brake pucks would spring a leak due to heat and start a fire; etc,
etc. Mil 6606 brake will burn very hot and fast.
Fast forward to today. As a CFI, I am constantly battling pilots who like to ride
the brakes .. whether they realize it or not. It is easier to ride the brakes
in an RV than in other GA planes just because of the way the pedals are made
and how they are installed. It is far too easy to ride the brakes when merely
thinking you are only applying rudder when in fact you are inadvertantly
applying some brake pressure as well.
And how about those long taxi routes to the runway or ramp? Do you ride the brakes
to keep your speed constant on a long taxiway? (the wrong way)
Or do you let the bird coast (with increasing speed) and then apply brakes quickly
to slow down, then immediately get off the brakes and start the coast process
again? (the right way)
Same thing with slowing down after landing on the runway ,,,,, do you ride the
brakes to slow down gradually and then keep your feet on the brakes to turnoff?
Or do you apply moderate, constant pressure to start slowing down . and then get
off the brakes totally and coast a bit, then reapply brakes again?
Remember .. if you get on the brakes (moderate pressure) to use them, and then
immediately get off of them, you wont generate near as much head on the disc's
as if you use a constant pressure on themI am 12 years on the same MATCO discs
and have change pads once.
Just saying. Much of the brake problems in the RV's are not who makes the pads
or the discs..it is how you use them.
Oh, dont forget to let her roll to the far end of the runway to turn off rather
than stepping on the brakes to make the closer turnoff whenever you have the
option.
grumpy
N184JM
> On Apr 29, 2019, at 2:36 PM, Lenny Iszak <lenard@rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>
> --> <lenard@rapiddecision.com>
>
> Clearly visible. Attached some pictures.
>
> Lenny
>
>
>
> digidocs wrote:
>> Lenny,
>>
>> This is very interesting. How did you determine that the discs were warped
or was it obvious? Hopefully you've found the issue now!
>>
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:10 AM Lenny Iszak wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Mine has been doing that for a while and I think i just now fixed it.
>>> The discs were warped and that was overheating the calipers/pads even when
not using the brakes.
>>>
>>> Replacing the discs only didn't help. Adding return springs on the master cylinders
didn't help.
>>>
>>> The pads crack just as well with Matco's SwiftLine pad/shoe that they rivet
together themselves. So I doubt it's an oversqueezed rivet problem. Plus the
whole pad looks charred by the time it cracks around the rivet holes.
>>>
>>> This time around I replaced the shoes, pads, the pins, everything. Also put
thermocouples on both calipers. AFS has two TIT thermocouples inputs so my caliper
temps are showing on the screen.
>>>
>>> The one thing I learned from that exercise is that when I hold onto the brakes
after landing i can see the temps zoom up above 200F in seconds, otherwise
they stay below 130F.
>>> Just tap them and let go and the heat from the disc won't have time to transfer
over to the pads.
>>>
>>> Lenny
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Lenny Iszak
>>> Palm City, FL
>>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001
>>> (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --------
> Lenny Iszak
> Palm City, FL
> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489014#489014
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0453_752.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0449_175.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0444_471.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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I am in annual now, and have 400 hours on my 10 with MATCO brakes. Last week I
installed new brakes, Michelin Aviators and Michelin Airstop tubes. This is
my THIRD set of brake pads. My first set of brakes had a burr on the left brake
causing it to not release....and I had to replace early during my phase 1
testing. My second set got me through my instrument rating, 120 taxi miles and
about 250 landings (best guess).
To walk the piston back into place when installing new brakes, I use a 1/4" x 4"
x 2" piece of steel and a C clamp. Turning slowly will walk the Pistons back
into place. Using my hand, I can push one piston in, but the other two come
out.... Hence, the steel plate.
I have Banaco brake lines and a parking brake and have had no issues with those.
The only other issue I have seen is leaks, because I did not use Locktite 567
sealant. George at Matco had me try it, and it worked great.
I took advantage of Matco's brake replacement service, basically buy two, put one
set on the shelf...get small discount, and they assure flatness and install
pads.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
Hello Jack
and all
On the subject of your last paragraph, the wheel pants not letting the brakes to
cool as good as they would if no pants were used, why not think in a solution
for the brakes cooling with the wheel pants, like for example put some shark
grills in the pants, forcing air to cool the brakes?
Would this cause any extra drag?
Just food for thaught
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 30/04/2019, s 12:30, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com> escreveu:
>
> Well said, General! As a Seaplane CFI teaching in a Cessna on amphibious floats
(which have castering nosewheels steered by braking, just like an RV-10),
I spend the first 15 minutes teaching a student just how to taxi the floatplane,
and invariably they want to ride the brakes, even on takeoff. On landing,
they want to stop quickly and then turn around to back taxi to the ramp (we don't
have a taxiway on our runway, so back-taxiing is the norm). I always point
out that "runway is cheaper than brakes", and have them gradually slow down,
without using the brakes any more than necessary.
>
> Part of the problem with the RV-10 brakes is the efficient, fully enclosed wheel
pants that don't allow a lot of cooling air to reach the brakes, compared
to older designs that usually did not enclose the brakes. Keep that in mind when
using your brakes.
>
> Jack Phillips
> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
> RV-10 #40610 - In the Paint Shop. Should fly for the first time in early June
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN MILLER
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 10:41 PM
> To: RV10-List Digest Server <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Brakes have me stumped
>
>
> At the risk of being tard and feathered by the crowd, let me offer a thought
on using brakes in GA aircraft, especially RVs.
>
> Biggest problem with brakes is usually related to the pilot.
>
> Back a long time ago when military brakes were not what they are today, pilots
were taught to never ride the brakes . when you need them, step on them and
then get your feet off the brakes. Reason was the brakes (and they were disc
brakes then) would overheat quickly, which was not a good thing. The pilot risked
one of the following: brakes would fade and give no stopping power; brakes
would lock up; brake pucks would spring a leak due to heat and start a fire;
etc, etc. Mil 6606 brake will burn very hot and fast.
>
> Fast forward to today. As a CFI, I am constantly battling pilots who like to
ride the brakes .. whether they realize it or not. It is easier to ride the
brakes in an RV than in other GA planes just because of the way the pedals are
made and how they are installed. It is far too easy to ride the brakes when
merely thinking you are only applying rudder when in fact you are inadvertantly
applying some brake pressure as well.
>
> And how about those long taxi routes to the runway or ramp? Do you ride the
brakes to keep your speed constant on a long taxiway? (the wrong way)
>
> Or do you let the bird coast (with increasing speed) and then apply brakes quickly
to slow down, then immediately get off the brakes and start the coast process
again? (the right way)
>
> Same thing with slowing down after landing on the runway ,,,,, do you ride the
brakes to slow down gradually and then keep your feet on the brakes to turnoff?
>
> Or do you apply moderate, constant pressure to start slowing down . and then
get off the brakes totally and coast a bit, then reapply brakes again?
>
> Remember .. if you get on the brakes (moderate pressure) to use them, and then
immediately get off of them, you wont generate near as much head on the disc's
as if you use a constant pressure on themI am 12 years on the same MATCO discs
and have change pads once.
>
> Just saying. Much of the brake problems in the RV's are not who makes the pads
or the discs..it is how you use them.
>
> Oh, dont forget to let her roll to the far end of the runway to turn off rather
than stepping on the brakes to make the closer turnoff whenever you have the
option.
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
>> On Apr 29, 2019, at 2:36 PM, Lenny Iszak <lenard@rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>>
>> --> <lenard@rapiddecision.com>
>>
>> Clearly visible. Attached some pictures.
>>
>> Lenny
>>
>>
>>
>> digidocs wrote:
>>> Lenny,
>>>
>>> This is very interesting. How did you determine that the discs were warped
or was it obvious? Hopefully you've found the issue now!
>>>
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:10 AM Lenny Iszak wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mine has been doing that for a while and I think i just now fixed it.
>>>> The discs were warped and that was overheating the calipers/pads even when
not using the brakes.
>>>>
>>>> Replacing the discs only didn't help. Adding return springs on the master
cylinders didn't help.
>>>>
>>>> The pads crack just as well with Matco's SwiftLine pad/shoe that they rivet
together themselves. So I doubt it's an oversqueezed rivet problem. Plus the
whole pad looks charred by the time it cracks around the rivet holes.
>>>>
>>>> This time around I replaced the shoes, pads, the pins, everything. Also put
thermocouples on both calipers. AFS has two TIT thermocouples inputs so my caliper
temps are showing on the screen.
>>>>
>>>> The one thing I learned from that exercise is that when I hold onto the brakes
after landing i can see the temps zoom up above 200F in seconds, otherwise
they stay below 130F.
>>>> Just tap them and let go and the heat from the disc won't have time to transfer
over to the pads.
>>>>
>>>> Lenny
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Lenny Iszak
>>>> Palm City, FL
>>>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001
>>>> (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------
>> Lenny Iszak
>> Palm City, FL
>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489014#489014
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0453_752.jpg
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0449_175.jpg
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0444_471.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
Carlos,
Having just gone through all the filling and sanding to get the wheel pants ready
to paint, I can't imagine working around cooling vents when doing that! I
think General Grumpy put his finger on it - just stay off the brakes as much as
possible, and NEVER ride them.
Jack Phillips
Just finished the Condition Inspection on my other airplane - a Pietenpol Air Camper
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Brakes have me stumped
Hello Jack
and all
On the subject of your last paragraph, the wheel pants not letting the brakes to
cool as good as they would if no pants were used, why not think in a solution
for the brakes cooling with the wheel pants, like for example put some shark
grills in the pants, forcing air to cool the brakes?
Would this cause any extra drag?
Just food for thaught
Carlos
Enviado do meu iPhone
No dia 30/04/2019, s 12:30, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com> escreveu:
> --> <jack@bedfordlandings.com>
>
> Well said, General! As a Seaplane CFI teaching in a Cessna on amphibious floats
(which have castering nosewheels steered by braking, just like an RV-10),
I spend the first 15 minutes teaching a student just how to taxi the floatplane,
and invariably they want to ride the brakes, even on takeoff. On landing,
they want to stop quickly and then turn around to back taxi to the ramp (we don't
have a taxiway on our runway, so back-taxiing is the norm). I always point
out that "runway is cheaper than brakes", and have them gradually slow down,
without using the brakes any more than necessary.
>
> Part of the problem with the RV-10 brakes is the efficient, fully enclosed wheel
pants that don't allow a lot of cooling air to reach the brakes, compared
to older designs that usually did not enclose the brakes. Keep that in mind when
using your brakes.
>
> Jack Phillips
> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
> RV-10 #40610 - In the Paint Shop. Should fly for the first time in
> early June
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN MILLER
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 10:41 PM
> To: RV10-List Digest Server <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Brakes have me stumped
>
>
> At the risk of being tard and feathered by the crowd, let me offer a thought
on using brakes in GA aircraft, especially RVs.
>
> Biggest problem with brakes is usually related to the pilot.
>
> Back a long time ago when military brakes were not what they are today, pilots
were taught to never ride the brakes . when you need them, step on them and
then get your feet off the brakes. Reason was the brakes (and they were disc
brakes then) would overheat quickly, which was not a good thing. The pilot risked
one of the following: brakes would fade and give no stopping power; brakes
would lock up; brake pucks would spring a leak due to heat and start a fire;
etc, etc. Mil 6606 brake will burn very hot and fast.
>
> Fast forward to today. As a CFI, I am constantly battling pilots who like to
ride the brakes .. whether they realize it or not. It is easier to ride the
brakes in an RV than in other GA planes just because of the way the pedals are
made and how they are installed. It is far too easy to ride the brakes when
merely thinking you are only applying rudder when in fact you are inadvertantly
applying some brake pressure as well.
>
> And how about those long taxi routes to the runway or ramp? Do you
> ride the brakes to keep your speed constant on a long taxiway? (the
> wrong way)
>
> Or do you let the bird coast (with increasing speed) and then apply
> brakes quickly to slow down, then immediately get off the brakes and
> start the coast process again? (the right way)
>
> Same thing with slowing down after landing on the runway ,,,,, do you ride the
brakes to slow down gradually and then keep your feet on the brakes to turnoff?
>
> Or do you apply moderate, constant pressure to start slowing down . and then
get off the brakes totally and coast a bit, then reapply brakes again?
>
> Remember .. if you get on the brakes (moderate pressure) to use them, and then
immediately get off of them, you wont generate near as much head on the disc's
as if you use a constant pressure on themI am 12 years on the same MATCO discs
and have change pads once.
>
> Just saying. Much of the brake problems in the RV's are not who makes the pads
or the discs..it is how you use them.
>
> Oh, dont forget to let her roll to the far end of the runway to turn off rather
than stepping on the brakes to make the closer turnoff whenever you have the
option.
>
> grumpy
> N184JM
>
>> On Apr 29, 2019, at 2:36 PM, Lenny Iszak <lenard@rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>>
>> --> <lenard@rapiddecision.com>
>>
>> Clearly visible. Attached some pictures.
>>
>> Lenny
>>
>>
>>
>> digidocs wrote:
>>> Lenny,
>>>
>>> This is very interesting. How did you determine that the discs were warped
or was it obvious? Hopefully you've found the issue now!
>>>
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:10 AM Lenny Iszak wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mine has been doing that for a while and I think i just now fixed it.
>>>> The discs were warped and that was overheating the calipers/pads even when
not using the brakes.
>>>>
>>>> Replacing the discs only didn't help. Adding return springs on the master
cylinders didn't help.
>>>>
>>>> The pads crack just as well with Matco's SwiftLine pad/shoe that they rivet
together themselves. So I doubt it's an oversqueezed rivet problem. Plus the
whole pad looks charred by the time it cracks around the rivet holes.
>>>>
>>>> This time around I replaced the shoes, pads, the pins, everything. Also put
thermocouples on both calipers. AFS has two TIT thermocouples inputs so my caliper
temps are showing on the screen.
>>>>
>>>> The one thing I learned from that exercise is that when I hold onto the brakes
after landing i can see the temps zoom up above 200F in seconds, otherwise
they stay below 130F.
>>>> Just tap them and let go and the heat from the disc won't have time to transfer
over to the pads.
>>>>
>>>> Lenny
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Lenny Iszak
>>>> Palm City, FL
>>>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001
>>>> (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489001#489001)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --------
>> Lenny Iszak
>> Palm City, FL
>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489014#489014
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0453_752.jpg
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0449_175.jpg
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0444_471.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
Interesting thread. I have the original Cleveland brakes. Everything g ok through
600 hours but I am about to install my third set of pads.
One thing I have found very interesting involves buying pads. I always try and
buy from Vans just to keep the home fires burning plus they usually have fair
prices.
Shopping for the 66-112 pads for the Clevelands however, Vans has jacked their
prices through the roof. More than twice what they sell other pads for and more
than twice what the pads (rapco version) sell for from Spruce.
Just thought that was curious.
--------
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489029#489029
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Brakes have me stumped |
The simple truth is, brakes generate a lot of heat. Sure, you could make them much
larger and heavier, but who wants to do that. Even without fairings, air cooling
is pretty ineffective (unless you can make a rotor with lots of fins, like
on your cylinders!). Large jet aircraft have no fairings (since they're retractable)
and it's pretty common to have the brakes sized for just one maximum
effort stop, after which the plane has to be parked until the brakes cool down.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489032#489032
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