Today's Message Index:
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1. 01:01 PM - Re: Magneto upgrade? (Kelly McMullen)
2. 01:30 PM - Re: Magneto upgrade? (Charlie Derk)
3. 01:47 PM - Re: Magneto upgrade? (Tim Olson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto upgrade? |
After this thread got going I started thinking seriously about SureFly
and PMag 6 cylinder. After research, I found that SureFly has one
possible advantage, of advancing timing as far as 38 degrees under low
power vs PMag only goes to 34 degrees.
The P-mag has two more significant advantages....It has a built-in
alternator that supplies power to run the electronic all except during
start, so you have the same advantages of old magneto with much higher
spark voltage. You can even hand prop using a 9 volt battery to power
the electronics until engine is running. SureFly must have external
power to operate.
The other BIG advantage is that it uses automotive plugs available
anywhere for about 1/6th the price of massive aircraft plugs. Plug gets
fouled or quits...don't waste time cleaning, just replace.
Both offer similar fuel economy and power boost possibilities. Both give
automotive variety starts, hot or cold. Price is very similar, unless
you have to buy Slick harness for SureFly (Bendix won't work) which is
several hundred bucks. Either way, payback is likely to be over TBO of
the engine to at best payback at half TBO. They look about even on
effort to install. SureFly has STC approval for certified aircraft,
P-Mag is experimental only.
I probably will wait awhile longer to see this market mature.
On 11/25/2020 4:02 PM, Phil Perry wrote:
> And I believe it requires a magneto with an impulse coupling on the
> other side. Correct?
>
> Im pretty sure that is right.
>
> Phil
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 25, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sheesh, I don't know how you pass the A&P practical if you can't do
>> basic trouble shooting on a mag.
>> If it won't fire with P lead disc, the problem is inside the mag, It
>> could be worn out points, bad condensor, damaged rotor.
>> A bad rotor will be pretty obvious from where it the contact is made
>> at each plug wire. Yes, it requires taking off the main rotor cap.
>> Slick mags have easy to get tools to verify e-gap setting.
>> Sent from myTRS-80 Model 100
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 2:33 PM Lenny Iszak <lenard@rapiddecision.com
>> <mailto:lenard@rapiddecision.com>> wrote:
>>
>> <lenard@rapiddecision.com <mailto:lenard@rapiddecision.com>>
>>
>> Marcus,
>>
>> The easiest swap is the Surefly. Keep the same plugs, harness and
>> magneto cap, and just swap in the Surefly for the mag, then
>> install a power wire and thats it. If it ever breaks while on a
>> trip you can always swap in a standard mag.
>>
>> Theres only one minor issue with it, most current EFIS systems
>> can't read the RPM from the P-lead of the SureFly. Using a hall
>> effect sensor in the other mag takes care of that though.
>>
>> Lenny
>>
>> > On Nov 25, 2020, at 12:13 PM, Marcus Cooper <cooprv7@yahoo.com
>> <mailto:cooprv7@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> <cooprv7@yahoo.com <mailto:cooprv7@yahoo.com>>
>> >
>> > During my run up to fly to meet the family for thanksgiving the
>> left magneto was completely dead. Back to the chicks to
>> troubleshoot where I removed the P leads in case they had grounded
>> somehow with no effect. I spoke with 3 mechanics and all had no
>> ideas other than replace the mag.
>> > Ive read some sporadic news about P Mags and maybe other
>> hybrid magnetos on the market. I dont want to go pure electronic
>> ignition due to other battery source issues, but does anyone have
>> any recommendations that would be a step up from a pure magneto?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Marcus
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto upgrade? |
On the automotive variety starts, Im not sure Im a believer. The easy hot or cold
starting, i believe, is more a function of the fuel injection. If you have
normal fuel injection and your spider is on top of your engine, its going to
take a little finessing regardless of the type of ignition. I have dual Lightspeed
ignitions, and I use a purge valve to make starts easier.
I do agree with the plugs/wires. I made my own wires and i will do exactly what
you suggested - throw out the plugs and buy new ones versus cleaning them.
Charlie
> On Dec 26, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
> After this thread got going I started thinking seriously about SureFly and
PMag 6 cylinder. After research, I found that SureFly has one possible advantage,
of advancing timing as far as 38 degrees under low power vs PMag only goes
to 34 degrees.
> The P-mag has two more significant advantages....It has a built-in alternator
that supplies power to run the electronic all except during start, so you have
the same advantages of old magneto with much higher spark voltage. You can even
hand prop using a 9 volt battery to power the electronics until engine is
running. SureFly must have external power to operate.
> The other BIG advantage is that it uses automotive plugs available anywhere for
about 1/6th the price of massive aircraft plugs. Plug gets fouled or quits...don't
waste time cleaning, just replace.
> Both offer similar fuel economy and power boost possibilities. Both give automotive
variety starts, hot or cold. Price is very similar, unless you have to
buy Slick harness for SureFly (Bendix won't work) which is several hundred bucks.
Either way, payback is likely to be over TBO of the engine to at best payback
at half TBO. They look about even on effort to install. SureFly has STC approval
for certified aircraft, P-Mag is experimental only.
> I probably will wait awhile longer to see this market mature.
>
>> On 11/25/2020 4:02 PM, Phil Perry wrote:
>> And I believe it requires a magneto with an impulse coupling on the other side.
Correct?
>> Im pretty sure that is right.
>> Phil
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> On Nov 25, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Sheesh, I don't know how you pass the A&P practical if you can't do basic trouble
shooting on a mag.
>>> If it won't fire with P lead disc, the problem is inside the mag, It could
be worn out points, bad condensor, damaged rotor.
>>> A bad rotor will be pretty obvious from where it the contact is made at each
plug wire. Yes, it requires taking off the main rotor cap.
>>> Slick mags have easy to get tools to verify e-gap setting.
>>> Sent from myTRS-80 Model 100
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 2:33 PM Lenny Iszak <lenard@rapiddecision.com <mailto:lenard@rapiddecision.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> <lenard@rapiddecision.com <mailto:lenard@rapiddecision.com>>
>>>
>>> Marcus,
>>>
>>> The easiest swap is the Surefly. Keep the same plugs, harness and
>>> magneto cap, and just swap in the Surefly for the mag, then
>>> install a power wire and thats it. If it ever breaks while on a
>>> trip you can always swap in a standard mag.
>>>
>>> Theres only one minor issue with it, most current EFIS systems
>>> can't read the RPM from the P-lead of the SureFly. Using a hall
>>> effect sensor in the other mag takes care of that though.
>>>
>>> Lenny
>>>
>>> > On Nov 25, 2020, at 12:13 PM, Marcus Cooper <cooprv7@yahoo.com
>>> <mailto:cooprv7@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> <cooprv7@yahoo.com <mailto:cooprv7@yahoo.com>>
>>> >
>>> > During my run up to fly to meet the family for thanksgiving the
>>> left magneto was completely dead. Back to the chicks to
>>> troubleshoot where I removed the P leads in case they had grounded
>>> somehow with no effect. I spoke with 3 mechanics and all had no
>>> ideas other than replace the mag.
>>> > Ive read some sporadic news about P Mags and maybe other
>>> hybrid magnetos on the market. I dont want to go pure electronic
>>> ignition due to other battery source issues, but does anyone have
>>> any recommendations that would be a step up from a pure magneto?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > Marcus
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto upgrade? |
Hi Kelly,
A couple of thoughts on that.
1) I'm actually not a huge fan of auto plugs, on the BOTTOM. That's one
the reasons I purposely went surefly, and one of the reasons I didn't do
lightspeed on the bottom. I've had a plug boot clip get loose over time
and although it felt tight when installed, it repeatedly released, off a
TOP plug, in flight. So the more I pondered it, I'm much more happy to
use iridium aviation plugs on the bottom, with a standard harness that
is mechanically bolted on to the plug. The bottom plugs could have an
even easier time of gravity/vibration induced plug wire disconnects. So
I considered that a +1 for the Surefly for sure.
The other thing that I call a -1 for the P-Mag is that I really don't
think there are many 6 cylinder units out in the field yet, and they had
them promised to ship "next month" for far too many years. My gut
feeling is that they ran into issues, and I would want to see a lot more
track record on them before personally considering them. I know that
some of the early units from the company suffered gear wear issues
as well, and if you read enough on VAF you'll find a few comments here
and there that indicate potential issues. Yes, you'll also find a huge
amount of support, but, I'm not sure you can just read all the positives
and still trust it. There is enough moderation going on there that you
never know what is the whole story. Case in point...there are multiple
threads that completely disappear regarding EarthX battery issues.
Anything that becomes too big of a publicity problem for an advertising
manufacturer just goes away. So you really have to watch for threads
over a long period of time to see what kinds of issues people run into,
and I've seen enough that I myself would want to see far more time,
especially if considering 6-cylinder P-Mags.
I also consider it a +1 that the Surefly has been adopted by Lycoming
as their electronic ignition too. They claim it has their own custom
proprietary timing curve, but from a hardware perspective, it's the same
unit. So if Lycoming has seen enough to be comfortable, I'm more
inclined to be interested as well.
I think you're probably off on the payback, as well. If you look at
mags from a perspective of slick mag required/recommended maintenance,
you're going to spend enough in the first 1,000 hours of operation to
come out definitely ahead by going Surefly. The impulse couplers
are also a disaster waiting to happen, with their rivet wear, so you
avoid that whole concern. Add in the fact that you can also leave
surefly enabled for starting and you'll have a nicer starting airplane.
With my Lightspeed + Surefly, I have 2 that can fire during start,
both with more engergy than a magneto. I also like that the Lightspeed
I think is the best running and one of the longest in business of all
the EI systems, and that it has a simple no-moving-part operationg.
It makes for an ideal top side ignition. And I wouldn't want to put
all my eggs in the same basket by having dual front mount sensors
that could get ripped off by an alternator belt failure, so I'm glad to
have the second system be a rear accessory case mounted system...again,
with bolt on ignition harness wires.
I'm just saying that when thinking through it, you have quite a few
small details to consider. The PMag does get the +1 with the self
generating power, but really that's one of the few places I can give it
positive over the competition. It would be nice to see that feature
on some competing products. That said, now that I'm dual-alternator
and dual-bus feed to the surefly, I really don't have much concern
anymore about the power side of things.
My personal advice for people is, if you're running 2 mags presently,
you should probably at least have a plan to replace one by the time
you have 1,000 hours on one of them. It's pretty inevitable that
you're going to want the long term benefits, so gear up and embrace
one of the products so you don't get stuck in the high maintenance
and lower reliability that magnetos (certainly slick magnetos) have.
I know you like Bendix, which may change the decision slightly too.
There's nothing worse than having an unexpected Mag issue force you
to keep buying new magnetos because you weren't ready to make the jump.
Also, the upgrade from a surefly standpoint, is about as simple as it
gets, and can be done with about as little down time as a person
could expect.
Tim
On 12/26/20 2:59 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>
> After this thread got going I started thinking seriously about
> SureFly and PMag 6 cylinder. After research, I found that SureFly has
> one possible advantage, of advancing timing as far as 38 degrees under
> low power vs PMag only goes to 34 degrees.
> The P-mag has two more significant advantages....It has a built-in
> alternator that supplies power to run the electronic all except during
> start, so you have the same advantages of old magneto with much higher
> spark voltage. You can even hand prop using a 9 volt battery to power
> the electronics until engine is running. SureFly must have external
> power to operate.
> The other BIG advantage is that it uses automotive plugs available
> anywhere for about 1/6th the price of massive aircraft plugs. Plug gets
> fouled or quits...don't waste time cleaning, just replace.
> Both offer similar fuel economy and power boost possibilities. Both give
> automotive variety starts, hot or cold. Price is very similar, unless
> you have to buy Slick harness for SureFly (Bendix won't work) which is
> several hundred bucks. Either way, payback is likely to be over TBO of
> the engine to at best payback at half TBO. They look about even on
> effort to install. SureFly has STC approval for certified aircraft,
> P-Mag is experimental only.
> I probably will wait awhile longer to see this market mature.
>
> On 11/25/2020 4:02 PM, Phil Perry wrote:
>> And I believe it requires a magneto with an impulse coupling on the
>> other side. Correct?
>>
>> Im pretty sure that is right.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Nov 25, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Sheesh, I don't know how you pass the A&P practical if you can't do
>>> basic trouble shooting on a mag.
>>> If it won't fire with P lead disc, the problem is inside the mag, It
>>> could be worn out points, bad condensor, damaged rotor.
>>> A bad rotor will be pretty obvious from where it the contact is made
>>> at each plug wire. Yes, it requires taking off the main rotor cap.
>>> Slick mags have easy to get tools to verify e-gap setting.
>>> Sent from myTRS-80 Model 100
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 2:33 PM Lenny Iszak <lenard@rapiddecision.com
>>> <mailto:lenard@rapiddecision.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> <lenard@rapiddecision.com <mailto:lenard@rapiddecision.com>>
>>>
>>> Marcus,
>>>
>>> The easiest swap is the Surefly. Keep the same plugs, harness and
>>> magneto cap, and just swap in the Surefly for the mag, then
>>> install a power wire and thats it. If it ever breaks while on a
>>> trip you can always swap in a standard mag.
>>>
>>> Theres only one minor issue with it, most current EFIS systems
>>> can't read the RPM from the P-lead of the SureFly. Using a hall
>>> effect sensor in the other mag takes care of that though.
>>>
>>> Lenny
>>>
>>> > On Nov 25, 2020, at 12:13 PM, Marcus Cooper <cooprv7@yahoo.com
>>> <mailto:cooprv7@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> <cooprv7@yahoo.com <mailto:cooprv7@yahoo.com>>
>>> >
>>> > During my run up to fly to meet the family for thanksgiving the
>>> left magneto was completely dead. Back to the chicks to
>>> troubleshoot where I removed the P leads in case they had grounded
>>> somehow with no effect. I spoke with 3 mechanics and all had no
>>> ideas other than replace the mag.
>>> > Ive read some sporadic news about P Mags and maybe other
>>> hybrid magnetos on the market. I dont want to go pure electronic
>>> ignition due to other battery source issues, but does anyone have
>>> any recommendations that would be a step up from a pure magneto?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > Marcus
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer"
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
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