Today's Message Index:
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1. 04:32 AM - Re: Thanks for the paint advice (David Corwith)
2. 04:46 AM - Re: Thanks for the paint advice (Charlie Derk)
3. 04:58 AM - Re: Thanks for the paint advice (Thomas Mason)
4. 05:47 AM - Re: Thanks for the paint advice (Bill Boyd)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Thanks for the paint advice |
Anyone using Stewart's waterborne paints on their 10? I have started my
RV10 project and intend to use it exclusively. After working/testing it
on several non aviation projects I'm very impressed with the product for
many reasons; toxicity, cleanup, top coat 300$/gal vs 900$/gal, and 30%
lighter. I'm using the 3M Accuspray gun for applications.
thanks in advance,
Dave Corwith
On 7/12/21 2:23 PM, Bill Boyd wrote:
> Anybody have comparables on top-tier vinyl vs paint? It's time to get
> my 10 painted as well, and the owner of the local sign printing and
> vinyl wrap shop was in the office today and we started talking about
> them branching out from cars to planes...
>
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 1:51 PM Lew Gallagher <lewgall@charter.net
> <mailto:lewgall@charter.net>> wrote:
>
> BTW, I loved Imron ... until last summer, when I didn't. I'm in
> South Carolina. It would go on like glass like usual, then when I
> came back two hours later to check on it, it would have solvent
> pop or orange peel. I tried every trick I new with the same
> results. I finally did a Google search and found an article by a
> paint chemist who flatly stated that if the sum of the air
> temperature plus the humidity is greater than 180 YOU CANNOT PAINT
> !! I don't have a climate controlled booth. That was the problem
> and I confirmed it by being in the booth, ready to paint as the
> sun came up. There was a window where the early sun burned off
> the dew, but the temperature wasn't up yet. And the paint turned
> out fine.
>
> Since then I've found that the cheaper version of Imron, called
> Nason Full-Thane, goes on just as easy, isn't nearly as sensitive
> to heat and humidity, and so far holds up the same as Imron. As I
> understand it, Dupont sold the Imron name and formula to Axion and
> Axion also makes the Nason. So your paint store that has Imron
> would also have the Nason. AND the brand name hardener is more
> than twice as expensive as generic hardener - ask for HighTeck,
> super wet look, 7519 hardener. The ratio is 8:2:1 (8 paint to 2
> thinner to 1 hardener) The paint store and I recommend 8:1:1
> otherwise you have to put a VERY light coat on first and let it
> get tacky before you put on final coats or it will run on rivets,
> bottom of vertical edges, etc.
>
> Maybe more than you wanted to know.
>
> Later, - Lew
>>
>> On 7/12/2021 11:56:57 AM, Thomas Gautier <ngautier@earthlink.net
>> <mailto:ngautier@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Wow, guys! Thanks for all the replies.
>>
>> You are unanimous that I should do some due diligence and go for
>> this. I really appreciate advice. I guess I had painting prices
>> from 7 years ago stuck in my head. I also realize that Imron is
>> quite good paint and probably ups the cost.
>>
>> Ill let you know what happens and Ill send pix.
>>
>> Nick
>> .
>>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Thanks for the paint advice |
Didn=99t use the paint but used the primer for the whole interior of m
y 10. It was fantastic. Was able to spray in my garage a d not have the whol
e house smell.
> On Jul 13, 2021, at 7:38 AM, David Corwith <dave@corwith.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> Anyone using Stewart's waterborne paints on their 10? I have started my R
V10 project and intend to use it exclusively. After working/testing it on s
everal non aviation projects I'm very impressed with the product for many re
asons; toxicity, cleanup, top coat 300$/gal vs 900$/gal, and 30% lighter. I
'm using the 3M Accuspray gun for applications.
>
> thanks in advance,
>
> Dave Corwith
>
>> On 7/12/21 2:23 PM, Bill Boyd wrote:
>> Anybody have comparables on top-tier vinyl vs paint? It's time to get my
10 painted as well, and the owner of the local sign printing and vinyl wrap
shop was in the office today and we started talking about them branching ou
t from cars to planes...
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 1:51 PM Lew Gallagher <lewgall@charter.net> wrote
:
>>> BTW, I loved Imron ... until last summer, when I didn't. I'm in South C
arolina. It would go on like glass like usual, then when I came back two ho
urs later to check on it, it would have solvent pop or orange peel. I tried
every trick I new with the same results. I finally did a Google search and
found an article by a paint chemist who flatly stated that if the sum of th
e air temperature plus the humidity is greater than 180 YOU CANNOT PAINT !!
I don't have a climate controlled booth. That was the problem and I confir
med it by being in the booth, ready to paint as the sun came up. There was a
window where the early sun burned off the dew, but the temperature wasn't u
p yet. And the paint turned out fine.
>>>
>>> Since then I've found that the cheaper version of Imron, called Nason Fu
ll-Thane, goes on just as easy, isn't nearly as sensitive to heat and humidi
ty, and so far holds up the same as Imron. As I understand it, Dupont sold t
he Imron name and formula to Axion and Axion also makes the Nason. So your p
aint store that has Imron would also have the Nason. AND the brand name har
dener is more than twice as expensive as generic hardener - ask for HighTeck
, super wet look, 7519 hardener. The ratio is 8:2:1 (8 paint to 2 thinner t
o 1 hardener) The paint store and I recommend 8:1:1 otherwise you have to p
ut a VERY light coat on first and let it get tacky before you put on final c
oats or it will run on rivets, bottom of vertical edges, etc.
>>>
>>> Maybe more than you wanted to know.
>>>
>>> Later, - Lew
>>>> On 7/12/2021 11:56:57 AM, Thomas Gautier <ngautier@earthlink.net> wrote
:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wow, guys! Thanks for all the replies.
>>>>
>>>> You are unanimous that I should do some due diligence and go for this. I
really appreciate advice. I guess I had painting prices from 7 years ago st
uck in my head. I also realize that Imron is quite good paint and probably u
ps the cost.
>>>>
>>>> I=99ll let you know what happens and I=99ll send pix.
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>> .
>>>>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Thanks for the paint advice |
Charlie - here's a link to Avery's page for marine, RV, ATV and off-road. T
he durability looks to be about twice that of auto films.
https://graphics.averydennison.com/en/home/applications/vehicles-and-transp
ortation-applications/marine-rv-atv-offroad.html
Tom
Thomas W. Mason, PhD | President & Principal Consultant
TWMason
(630) 886-7556
tom@twmason.com
www.linkedin.com/in/thomasmasonphd
www.twmason.com
________________________________
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com <owner-rv10-list-server@matronic
s.com> on behalf of Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2021 7:34:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Thanks for the paint advice
On 7/12/2021 3:01 PM, Thomas Mason wrote:
I have been presuming that I will wrap my -10 myself when it=92s done. I=92
ve gone so far as to buy samples on EBay. But I=92m not there yet.
The biggest advantages are cost and toxicity (none, unless you eat it). The
cost of vinyl materials should be under $3k. For example, a 5=92x75=92 rol
l of Avery Supreme Gloss White is about $750.
Prep will be similar to painting because it is the same ' if it will show
under paint, it will show under vinyl. Installation should be less than pa
int and takes perhaps three days for a small plane ' at least for an expe
rienced installer.
The biggest drawback is durability ' although none of the specs that I=92
ve seen take into account the fact that most RV-10s spend the bulk of their
lives inside a dark hangar. Vinyl on non-vertical surfaces has substantial
ly less durability than vertical, and the geo zone you live in has a big ef
fect, as well. One strategy is to paint the top of the plane and use vinyl
vertically and for graphics. Oil and gas can be harmful, although some have
reported good durability around their fuel caps.
Check out Avery Dennison=92s Supreme Film or 3M=92s 1080 Wrap Film websites
. They have tech sheets for the different kinds of vinyl they offer. Avery
also offers a more rugged vinyl for off-road, marine, etc., but planes gene
rally have been getting wrapped in automobile film. The few people I=92ve r
un into who=92ve wrapped planes have either put it over existing paint or b
are aluminum on kit planes. Avery=92s SWF900 can be used directly on alumin
um, per their spec sheet.
YouTube has tons of wrapping videos, including a bunch by CK Wraps (cars).
There are also videos of an RV-9A, a Panther, a Zenith, etc., getting wrapp
ed.
BTW, there=92s a =93Paint vs Wrap=94 thread on this forum from 2017. The co
nsensus was that vinyl doesn=92t compare well to paint; however, a good wra
p job is indistinguishable from paint. In fact, vinyl is used all the time
to change the color of exotic and supercars instead of repainting. It=92s a
lso used more than I would have suspected on commercial aircraft.
The fairer comparison would be my nonprofessional wrap job to my nonprofess
ional paint job. Either one will probably be at least a 15=92 job!
Hi Bill,
There's a redneck or two lurking on the big boy list, from down at Slobovia
Outernational.
I've been researching vinyl, too. My research aligns with Thomas', with a c
ouple of additions, and some questions for Thomas.
3M now sells '2080', which *according to their phone rep*, is a little easi
er to stretch around corners, and it comes with a clear protective covering
so you can do all the required stretching/fitting/squeegee work with the p
rotective film on the actual wrap, then peel it off to leave a perfect surf
ace. When I started looking a couple of months ago, the color selection was
n't as good yet, but I got the impression from their phone rep that 2080 wo
uld eventually replace 1080.
I started a thread over on HBA asking for others' experiences, and got quit
e a bit of useful info. Might be worth a read.
https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/threads/full-vinyl-wrap.35684/
Like Thomas said, others have had some durability issues in the high wear a
reas, like wheel pants and perhaps the cowl (see the posts & pics in the HB
A thread). I've toyed with the idea of wrapping everything that's 'flat wra
pped' (almost all the airplane on a -7; not so much on a -10 with the 'glas
s top), and going to a local paint supply to get color-matched urethane for
the tough-to-wrap and/or high wear areas, like pants, wing/empennage tips,
and maybe the cowl. Cowl is a dilemma for me; might be the hardest thing t
o paint, and the hardest thing to wrap.
I was pretty well set on using vinyl on my -7 because of money; with a rota
ry engine on it, its sale value will never be much more than the price of a
pro paint job. Then I started hearing about the relatively high quality of
less expensive 2 & 3 part, non-clearcoat automotive paints (like the Nason
mentioned earlier, Summit, etc). The money for materials starts to look pr
etty close to quality vinyl. Of course, I'd still be stuck with running the
spray gun, and I'm pretty sure my shelf paper skills are more highly devel
oped than my painting skills. ;-)
Thomas,
Do you have a part # for the Avery heavy duty products?
Thanks,
Charlie
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Thanks for the paint advice |
Good stuff, everybody. Hi, Charlie ;-)
Agree with the paint the wheel pants/cowl/cabin top (-10) & compound curved
fairings philosophy... and wrap the rest. I'd go so far as to say do the
wheel pants in a color that has a spray can match at the True Value store,
because field repairs to wheel pant paint are inevitable and who wants to
bust out a spray gun and associated gear to do spot repairs on the pants?
Not this boy.
On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 8:03 AM Thomas Mason <tom@twmason.com> wrote:
> Charlie - here's a link to Avery's page for marine, RV, ATV and off-road.
> The durability looks to be about twice that of auto films.
>
> https://graphics.averydennison.com/en/home/applications/vehicles-and-tran
sportation-applications/marine-rv-atv-offroad.html
>
> Tom
>
> Thomas W. Mason, PhD | President & Principal Consultant
> TWMason
> (630) 886-7556
> tom@twmason.com
> www.linkedin.com/in/thomasmasonphd
> www.twmason.com
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com <
> owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Charlie England <
> ceengland7@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 12, 2021 7:34:12 PM
> *To:* rv10-list@matronics.com <rv10-list@matronics.com>
> *Subject:* Re: RV10-List: Thanks for the paint advice
>
> On 7/12/2021 3:01 PM, Thomas Mason wrote:
>
> I have been presuming that I will wrap my -10 myself when it=99s do
ne. I=99ve
> gone so far as to buy samples on EBay. But I=99m not there yet.
>
>
> The biggest advantages are cost and toxicity (none, unless you eat it).
> The cost of vinyl materials should be under $3k. For example, a 5
=99x75=99 roll
> of Avery Supreme Gloss White is about $750.
>
>
> Prep will be similar to painting because it is the same =93 if it w
ill show
> under paint, it will show under vinyl. Installation should be less than
> paint and takes perhaps three days for a small plane =93 at least f
or an
> experienced installer.
>
>
> The biggest drawback is durability =93 although none of the specs t
hat I=99ve
> seen take into account the fact that most RV-10s spend the bulk of their
> lives inside a dark hangar. Vinyl on non-vertical surfaces has
> substantially less durability than vertical, and the geo zone you live in
> has a big effect, as well. One strategy is to paint the top of the plane
> and use vinyl vertically and for graphics. Oil and gas can be harmful,
> although some have reported good durability around their fuel caps.
>
>
> Check out Avery Dennison=99s Supreme Film or 3M=99s 1080 Wrap
Film websites.
> They have tech sheets for the different kinds of vinyl they offer. Avery
> also offers a more rugged vinyl for off-road, marine, etc., but planes
> generally have been getting wrapped in automobile film. The few people I
=99ve
> run into who=99ve wrapped planes have either put it over existing p
aint or
> bare aluminum on kit planes. Avery=99s SWF900 can be used directly
on
> aluminum, per their spec sheet.
>
>
> YouTube has tons of wrapping videos, including a bunch by CK Wraps (cars)
.
> There are also videos of an RV-9A, a Panther, a Zenith, etc., getting
> wrapped.
>
>
> BTW, there=99s a =9CPaint vs Wrap=9D thread on this for
um from 2017. The
> consensus was that vinyl doesn=99t compare well to paint; however,
a good
> wrap job is indistinguishable from paint. In fact, vinyl is used all the
> time to change the color of exotic and supercars instead of repainting.
> It=99s also used more than I would have suspected on commercial air
craft.
>
>
> The fairer comparison would be my nonprofessional wrap job to my
> nonprofessional paint job. Either one will probably be at least a 15
=99 job!
>
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> There's a redneck or two lurking on the big boy list, from down at
> Slobovia Outernational.
>
> I've been researching vinyl, too. My research aligns with Thomas', with a
> couple of additions, and some questions for Thomas.
>
> 3M now sells '2080', which *according to their phone rep*, is a little
> easier to stretch around corners, and it comes with a clear protective
> covering so you can do all the required stretching/fitting/squeegee work
> with the protective film on the actual wrap, then peel it off to leave a
> perfect surface. When I started looking a couple of months ago, the color
> selection wasn't as good yet, but I got the impression from their phone r
ep
> that 2080 would eventually replace 1080.
>
> I started a thread over on HBA asking for others' experiences, and got
> quite a bit of useful info. Might be worth a read.
> https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/threads/full-vinyl-wrap.35684/
>
> Like Thomas said, others have had some durability issues in the high wear
> areas, like wheel pants and perhaps the cowl (see the posts & pics in the
> HBA thread). I've toyed with the idea of wrapping everything that's 'flat
> wrapped' (almost all the airplane on a -7; not so much on a -10 with the
> 'glass top), and going to a local paint supply to get color-matched
> urethane for the tough-to-wrap and/or high wear areas, like pants,
> wing/empennage tips, and maybe the cowl. Cowl is a dilemma for me; might
be
> the hardest thing to paint, and the hardest thing to wrap.
>
> I was pretty well set on using vinyl on my -7 because of money; with a
> rotary engine on it, its sale value will never be much more than the pric
e
> of a pro paint job. Then I started hearing about the relatively high
> quality of less expensive 2 & 3 part, non-clearcoat automotive paints (li
ke
> the Nason mentioned earlier, Summit, etc). The money for materials starts
> to look pretty close to quality vinyl. Of course, I'd still be stuck with
> running the spray gun, and I'm pretty sure my shelf paper skills are more
> highly developed than my painting skills. ;-)
>
> Thomas,
> Do you have a part # for the Avery heavy duty products?
>
> Thanks,
> Charlie
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm
_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free
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> www.avast.com
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