Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:15 AM - Using E-10 in IO-540 (Doc)
2. 10:36 AM - Re: Using E-10 in IO-540 (Berck E. Nash)
3. 11:33 AM - Re: Using E-10 in IO-540 (Charlie England)
4. 11:41 AM - Re: Using E-10 in IO-540 (Charlie England)
5. 12:38 PM - Re: G100UL (Thomas Gautier)
6. 01:40 PM - Re: G100UL (Kelly McMullen)
7. 07:12 PM - Re: Using E-10 in IO-540 (Kelly McMullen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Using E-10 in IO-540 |
Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the
fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is
there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with
8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing? Does any one know when
mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof? Doc
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| Subject: | Re: Using E-10 in IO-540 |
I'd be really worried about the vapor pressure. I run 91 unleaded with the
Peterson STC in my Cherokee 180 and have had a couple instances where the
fuel starts boiling in the float bowl on takeoff. Happened on hot days,
but the plane was unflyable when it happened. I could make it run with a
severely leaned mixture, but only at lower power settings. And that's with
ethanol free unleaded. I'd suspect that E-10 is likely to have an even
higher vapor pressure than E-0. I now keep one tank with at least half
100LL in it when it's hot out. It's never a problem after takeoff.
Obviously things are different with the higher pressures of a fuel
injection system, but unless you have a fuel return line you might have
problems...
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:19 AM Doc <docclv@windstream.net> wrote:
>
> Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the
> fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is
> there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with
> 8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing? Does any one know when
> mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof? Doc
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Using E-10 in IO-540 |
On 9/19/2021 12:15 PM, Doc wrote:
>
> Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps
> the fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof)
> is there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540
> with 8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing? Does any one
> know when mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof? Doc
My conversation with the factory tech was over a decade ago, and he said
that the materials had been updated for several years prior to our
conversation. He was very open in discussing the matter verbally on the
phone at that time, but it was pretty clear (for obvious liability
reasons) that it wouldn't be put in writing. I wish I could give you a
date, but I don't remember him giving a specific date. He basically said
that the change was driven by the fact that the original materials just
weren't available any more. Since those pumps are derived from (likely
identical to, in some cases) automotive and other ground/water bound
engine pumps, my interpretation was that the diaphragm makers had all
switched to E-tolerant materials for the much larger ground-bound market.
My personal opinion (I'm not a chemist or materials guy) is that there's
little risk to aluminum from 10% gasohol as long as water is kept out of
the mix. That's based on reading a fair amount of stuff written by
people who are supposed to be experts in the field and aren't
particularly susceptible to aviation old hangar tales, so are just
looking at the chemistry. There's a lot written about the subject if you
do an internet search for something like, 'will ethanol attack
aluminum', and filter out the random forum posts from people who give
'first hand accounts' without full disclosure of all factors, like a
half full tank sitting open to the air for 2 years unused, and then
finding corrosion inside. The papers that do talk about aluminum
reacting to ethanol seem to be talking about storing near-pure ethanol;
not 10% gasohol. There was a 'squadron' of RVs from one of the corn belt
states a number of years ago that were flying on something like E-95;
near pure ethanol, to promote ethanol use. No idea on what, if anything,
they did to protect aluminum tanks/lines.
Not sure which fuel sensor would be susceptible. The Floscan flow
sensors are used in all sorts of non-flying applications, as are
traditional & newer 3wire fuel pressure sensors.
FWIW,
Charlie
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Using E-10 in IO-540 |
My one problem was also with a carb'd engine. I agree that it's more
difficult, with narrower margins, when running a carb. But remember, the
'vapor pressure' even on the worst gas is around 13psi @100 degrees. So
the pressure in an injected engine is way higher than that, all the way
to the spider. Individual injector lines have very little pressure, but
the mixture lever seems to be able to account for any remaining issues.
Electronic injection maintains 40psi+ all the way to the injectors. More
and more alt engine guys are running 'dead end' systems, with the
regulator behind the firewall and only fuel going into the engine ever
sees the hot side of the firewall. All modern cars I'm aware of use dead
end fuel systems.
Charlie
On 9/19/2021 12:35 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote:
> I'd be really worried about the vapor pressure. I run 91 unleaded
> with the Peterson STC in my Cherokee 180 and have had a couple
> instances where the fuel starts boiling in the float bowl on takeoff.
> Happened on hot days, but the plane was unflyable when it happened. I
> could make it run with a severely leanedmixture, but only at lower
> power settings. And that's with ethanol free unleaded. I'd suspect
> that E-10 is likely to have an even higher vapor pressure than E-0. I
> now keep one tank with at least half 100LL in it when it's hot out.
> It's never a problem after takeoff. Obviously things are different
> with the higher pressures of a fuel injection system, but unless you
> have a fuel return line you might have problems...
>
> On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 11:19 AM Doc <docclv@windstream.net
> <mailto:docclv@windstream.net>> wrote:
>
> <mailto:docclv@windstream.net>>
>
> Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and
> perhaps the
> fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is
> there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540
> with
> 8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing? Does any one know
> when
> mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof? Doc
>
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Message 5
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Here is what Lycoming has to say about using gas other than 100LL in IO540s.
I think this rev AB version is the latest. Indeed 93AKI, no ethanol, should
be fine, with the caveat on vapor pressure
https://www.lycoming.com/service-instruction-no-1070-AB
Nick Gautier
N363TG
Sent from my iPad
> On Sep 18, 2021, at 11:51 PM, RV10-List Digest Server <rv10-list@matronics
.com> wrote:
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________
________
>
>
> Time: 12:45:31 PM PST US
> From: Ken Cashwell <kilocharlie767@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: RV10-List: G100UL
>
> Please clarify. I see folks talking about using 93. I assume those folks
a
> ren=99t talking about using 93 in an IO540? Right?
>
> KC
>
> Sent from KC
Message 6
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It will depend on what part of the country you are in. Given the
climate, all summer fuel in AZ is required to be 7.0 RVP for emissions,
which happens to be the same as avgas. Most areas have summer gas below
8.0 RVP, while winter fuel can go as high as 14-15 RVP.
On 9/19/2021 12:38 PM, Thomas Gautier wrote:
> Here is what Lycoming has to say about using gas other than 100LL in
> IO540s. I think this rev AB version is the latest. Indeed 93AKI, no
> ethanol, should be fine, with the caveat on vapor pressure
>
> https://www.lycoming.com/service-instruction-no-1070-AB
> <https://www.lycoming.com/service-instruction-no-1070-AB>
>
> Nick Gautier
> N363TG
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Sep 18, 2021, at 11:51 PM, RV10-List Digest Server
>> <rv10-list@matronics.com> wrote:
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 5
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> Time: 12:45:31 PM PST US
>> From: Ken Cashwell <kilocharlie767@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV10-List: G100UL
>>
>> Please clarify. I see folks talking about using 93. I assume those
>> folks a
>> ren=99t talking about using 93 in an IO540? Right?
>>
>> KC
>>
>> Sent from KC
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Using E-10 in IO-540 |
The problem with alcohol is that it absorbs moisture really well. The
purest you can buy at the drug store is 91%, because it isn't economical to
get the rest of the moisture out. After it sits in your tank, even in
Arizona, for a few days it is likely to be down to 70% or less. At those
ratios it can start corroding your aluminum. I don't know that proseal is
all that alcohol resistant. Mooney puts a sealer over the proseal to
protect it but you RV tanks are just straight proseal. Older versions of
proseal would soften up a lot when exposed to mogas. I think the current
stuff is okay with mogas, but still wouldn't use 91 or 93 pump gas unless
it would be consumed in a single flight, within a few days, whether it had
alcohol or not.
On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 10:19 AM Doc <docclv@windstream.net> wrote:
>
> Other than deteriorating the mechanical fuel pump parts and perhaps the
> fuel sensor, (I assume the tank factory sealer is alcohol proof) is
> there any reason why E-10 could not be burned in the parallel 540 with
> 8.5 : 1 as all the plumbing is aluminum tubing? Does any one know when
> mechanical fuel pumps were made alcohol proof? Doc
>
>
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