Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:10 AM - Re: Re: Chelton replacements (Tom Chapman)
2. 05:44 AM - Re: Re: Chelton replacements (Tom Chapman)
3. 07:42 AM - Re: Chelton replacements (Robert Jones)
4. 08:27 AM - Re: Chelton replacements (SteinB)
5. 08:42 AM - Re: Chelton replacements (Charlie England)
6. 08:47 AM - Re: Chelton replacements (Charlie England)
7. 10:00 AM - Re: Chelton replacements (David Saylor)
8. 10:19 AM - Re: Chelton replacements (Robert Jones)
9. 10:44 AM - Re: Chelton replacements (Jonathan Beasley)
10. 11:02 AM - Re: Chelton replacements (Carl Baker)
11. 11:20 AM - Re: Chelton replacements (Charlie England)
12. 02:28 PM - Re: Chelton replacements (toaster73)
13. 05:34 PM - Re: Chelton replacements (SteinB)
14. 07:25 PM - Re: Chelton replacements (Charlie England)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
Bob,
I=99m a little confused by your comment:
=9CNow if you just dropped $40K at a dealer, they may pass on the soft
ware to you for free. Or not. I=99ve always had to pay for updates to m
y 420W=9D
I download my GTN65XI (and G3X) software updates from the Garmin website dir
ectly. And as I mentioned in my prior post, have never been charged. Maybe t
he GTN series works differently than the GNS series? I set up my RV10 on the
Garmin website, and (I assume) they verified all the units were installed i
n an experimental, and supplied by Stein. Maybe Stein gave =98permissi
on=99 for Garmin not to charge me?
Tom
> On Jan 18, 2022, at 2:04 AM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
.edu>
>
> My two cents:
> First, if you fly ifr in today=99s world, an ifr-TSO=99d gps i
s almost mandatory. And unless you=99re prepared to spend over $10K, y
ou=99re stuck with Garmin, which has a monopoly in the under $10K mark
et. Fortunately, GRT and Dynon, as well as Garmin, efis units can communicat
e with these gps boxes.
> Garmin. No question, Garmin stuff looks good. And no question, =98Lo
oks sell=99. Garmin is also expensive. While the base efis units look c
ompetitive, Garmin forces you to buy Garmin accessories (adsb, for example) b
y keeping the needed software links proprietary. And Garmin accessories are o
ver-priced, driving up the system cost. Garmin is big on data busses connect
ing everything together. =98Fully integrated=99 is the buzz word
. I=99m not convinced. I still remember when a software bug got thru, a
nd crashed everything that was interconnected. Since there are two contrary p
osts, here=99s how Garmin software updates work: They=99re free t
o dealers. Now if you just dropped $40K at a dealer, they may pass on the so
ftware to you for free. Or not. I=99ve always had to pay for updates t
o my 420W.
> Dynon. 15 years ago I would have rated Dynon not acceptable for ifr, due t
o the loss of the attitude indicator if you got a bug stuck in your pitot. T
hose days are past. Like Garmin, Dynon encourages buyers to buy their access
ories. Unlike Garmin, those extra boxes are reasonably priced.
> GRT. IMHO the best engineering inside, worst looks outside. Individual RS2
32 lines to accessories, grt doesn=99t like the failure modes of data b
usses. GRT interfaces with most others=99 accessories, except for Garm
in=99s (due to proprietary software issues already mentioned). GRT efi
s units will maintain a useable attitude indicator even if gps and pitot dat
a is lost - something Garmin and Dynon cannot claim. GRT is a small company,
you won=99t get as much hand-holding as from the others. If you want t
o pick different vendors for adsb, transponder, nav-com, etc., grt is what y
ou want. I=99d say this makes grt the leader in keeping the overall sy
stem cost down.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505722#505722
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
Oops, my last post should have said GTN650XI
Tom
> On Jan 18, 2022, at 2:04 AM, Bob Turner <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
>
> My two cents:
> First, if you fly ifr in todays world, an ifr-TSOd gps is almost mandatory. And
unless youre prepared to spend over $10K, youre stuck with Garmin, which has
a monopoly in the under $10K market. Fortunately, GRT and Dynon, as well as
Garmin, efis units can communicate with these gps boxes.
> Garmin. No question, Garmin stuff looks good. And no question, Looks sell. Garmin
is also expensive. While the base efis units look competitive, Garmin forces
you to buy Garmin accessories (adsb, for example) by keeping the needed software
links proprietary. And Garmin accessories are over-priced, driving up the
system cost. Garmin is big on data busses connecting everything together. Fully
integrated is the buzz word. Im not convinced. I still remember when a software
bug got thru, and crashed everything that was interconnected. Since there
are two contrary posts, heres how Garmin software updates work: Theyre free
to dealers. Now if you just dropped $40K at a dealer, they may pass on the software
to you for free. Or not. Ive always had to pay for updates to my 420W.
> Dynon. 15 years ago I would have rated Dynon not acceptable for ifr, due to the
loss of the attitude indicator if you got a bug stuck in your pitot. Those
days are past. Like Garmin, Dynon encourages buyers to buy their accessories.
Unlike Garmin, those extra boxes are reasonably priced.
> GRT. IMHO the best engineering inside, worst looks outside. Individual RS232
lines to accessories, grt doesnt like the failure modes of data busses. GRT interfaces
with most others accessories, except for Garmins (due to proprietary
software issues already mentioned). GRT efis units will maintain a useable attitude
indicator even if gps and pitot data is lost - something Garmin and Dynon
cannot claim. GRT is a small company, you wont get as much hand-holding as from
the others. If you want to pick different vendors for adsb, transponder, nav-com,
etc., grt is what you want. Id say this makes grt the leader in keeping
the overall system cost down.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505722#505722
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
Not quite current photo of my panel. I=99ve added LEMO connectors for m
y Bose A20=99s and finally put the cable in for my alternate air (the e
mpty hole bottom left)
Robert Jones
> On Jan 17, 2022, at 9:02 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> =46rom one who grew up in a Southern church, YES, you can get an amen!
>
> Now let's talk about why the FAA allows private companies to charge so muc
h for data our taxes have already paid for.
>
> Get BlueMail for Android
>> On Jan 17, 2022, at 9:50 PM, Robert Jones <rjones560xl@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and
approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the
cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everythi
ng else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (S
kyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the
approach plates. This works well and it isn=99t that expensive.
>> If you=99re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the update
s to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not in
clude software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only th
e dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could ma
ke do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to
own you forever.
>>
>> Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won=99t. As soon as they a
sk what licensed shop you work for and find out you don=99t work for o
ne the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin
shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don=99t even get an install
ation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.
>>
>> If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix e
verything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV d
atabase costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you a
re planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn=99t fine. Please understa
nd that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate
the way they treat their customers.
>>
>> Robert Jones
>>
>>> On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote
:
>>>
ng.com>
>>>
>>> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and G
armin. Depends on your budget and mission.
>>>
>>>> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>>>> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of som
e future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s th
ese days?
>>>> David McNeill
>>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigahttps://matronics.com/contribution">http
s://matronics.com/contribution
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than
marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love
both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they
are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out
for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc..
are the same additional $99 per year from either company.
The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have
Garmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of
bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.
Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do
with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.
Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands
for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of
warranty just like everyone else).
Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the
experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges
and/or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL.
Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for
free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go
download them.
It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your
alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.
We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole
"one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just
incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.
Cheers,
Stein
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and
> approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of t
he
> cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because
> everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle
> Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS
as
> well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn=99t that ex
pensive.
> If you=99re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the update
s to keep
> everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include
> software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the
> dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could
> make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wan
ts
> to own you forever.
>
> Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won=99t. As soon as they a
sk what
> licensed shop you work for and find out you don=99t work for one th
e
> conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin sho
p
> and pay they to fix the problem. You don=99t even get an installati
on manual
> for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.
>
> If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix
> everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and
> NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself.
If
> you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn=99t fine. Please
understand
> that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate
> the way they treat their customers.
>
> Robert Jones
>
> > On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote
:
> >
ng.com>
> >
> > There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and
> Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
> >
> >> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
> >> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of som
e
> future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s
> these days?
> >> David McNeill
> >
> >
> >
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
$99. What a deal! Pretty good discount from what's shown on Garmin's
website:
Name Price (USD) Databases Included
Canada Database Bundle $449.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles,
and Terrain databases.
Save $195/year
US Database Bundle $449.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles, and
Terrain databases.
Save $195/year
North America Database Bundle $549.00 Including Garmin Navigation,
Obstacles, and Terrain databases.
Save $245/year
On 1/18/2022 10:26 AM, SteinB wrote:
> This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than
> marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we
> love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious,
> because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts
> which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the
> plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per year
> from either company.
>
> The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you
> have Garmin EFISes then when youpair them with other brands (because
> of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.
>
> Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you
> do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
>
> Install manuals? You can get any install manualyou want.
>
> Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between
> brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees
> out of warranty just like everyone else).
>
> Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with
> the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you
> exchanges and/or repairsdirectlywithout needing to go through a
> dealer AT ALL. Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN)
> are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you
> yourself can go downloadthem.
>
> It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up
> your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.
>
> We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this
> whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is
> just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.
>
> Cheers,
> Stein
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR
> navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete
> Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the
> NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the
> Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to
> display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as
> the approach plates. This works well and it isnt that expensive.
> If youre looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates
> to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that
> does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you them
> free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the software
> updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if they had
> access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you forever.
>
> Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin wont. As soon as they
> ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you dont work
> for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a
> licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You dont
> even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only
> the dealers get those.
>
> If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel
> and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with
> the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my
> whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it yourself,
> Garmin isnt fine. Please understand that I am not badmouthing the
> Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat
> their customers.
>
> Robert Jones
>
> > On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen
> <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
> >
> <kellym@aviating.com>
> >
> > There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary
> AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
> >
> >> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
> >> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think
> of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in
> the newer 10s these days?
> >> David McNeill
> >
> >
> >
>
> ==========
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
--
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
Below was from this page:
https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/support/pricing?deviceModelID=3&aircraftSeriesID=4101#
Somewhat confusing, because if you look at the whole page, the only
place IFR is mentioned is in the 'OnePak':
OnePaks
The selected device is one of several devices which qualify for Garmin
OnePak database subscriptions. OnePaks offer databases for all
compatible Garmin avionics in a single aircraft for one low annual
price. Please see ourOnePak information page
<https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/onepak/>for more details.
Name Price (USD) Databases Included
Americas Standard + FliteCharts OnePak $999.00 Including Garmin
Navigation, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, FliteCharts, IFR/VFR
Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin
Pilot Premium Upgrade.
Americas Standard OnePak $799.00 Including Garmin Navigation,
Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, IFR/VFR Charts, Terrain,
Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin Pilot Premium
Upgrade.
Canada Standard + FliteCharts OnePak $819.00 Including Garmin
Navigation, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, FliteCharts, IFR/VFR
Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin
Pilot Premium Upgrade.
Canada Standard OnePak $669.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles,
SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, IFR/VFR Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and
Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin Pilot Premium Upgrade.
United States Standard + FliteCharts OnePak $819.00 Including Garmin
Navigation, Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, FliteCharts, IFR/VFR
Charts, Terrain, Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin
Pilot Premium Upgrade.
United States Standard OnePak $669.00 Including Garmin Navigation,
Obstacles, SafeTaxi, Airport Directory, IFR/VFR Charts, Terrain,
Basemap, and Frequency databases. Also includes Garmin Pilot Premium
Upgrade.
On 1/18/2022 10:47 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> $99. What a deal! Pretty good discount from what's shown on Garmin's
> website:
> Name Price (USD) Databases Included
> Canada Database Bundle $449.00 Including Garmin Navigation,
> Obstacles, and Terrain databases.
> Save $195/year
> US Database Bundle $449.00 Including Garmin Navigation, Obstacles,
> and Terrain databases.
> Save $195/year
> North America Database Bundle $549.00 Including Garmin Navigation,
> Obstacles, and Terrain databases.
> Save $245/year
>
> Now that $99 is looking like a steal.
Charlie
> On 1/18/2022 10:26 AM, SteinB wrote:
>> This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other
>> than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both
>> brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is
>> dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base map VFR
>> charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49 per year),
>> the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99 per
>> year from either company.
>>
>> The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you
>> have Garmin EFISes then when youpair them with other brands (because
>> of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.
>>
>> Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you
>> do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
>>
>> Install manuals? You can get any install manualyou want.
>>
>> Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between
>> brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees
>> out of warranty just like everyone else).
>>
>> Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with
>> the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you
>> exchanges and/or repairsdirectlywithout needing to go through a
>> dealer AT ALL. Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN)
>> are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where you
>> yourself can go downloadthem.
>>
>> It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up
>> your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.
>>
>> We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this
>> whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is
>> just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Stein
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR
>> navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete
>> Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to the
>> NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on the
>> Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to
>> display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as
>> the approach plates. This works well and it isnt that expensive.
>> If youre looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the
>> updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and
>> that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives you
>> them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to the
>> software updates, even though anyone could make do the updates if
>> they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you
>> forever.
>>
>> Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin wont. As soon as they
>> ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you dont work
>> for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a
>> licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the problem. You dont
>> even get an installation manual for the product you bought. Only
>> the dealers get those.
>>
>> If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel
>> and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with
>> the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put
>> my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on doing it
>> yourself, Garmin isnt fine. Please understand that I am not
>> badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the
>> way they treat their customers.
>>
>> Robert Jones
>>
>> > On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen
>> <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>> >
>> <kellym@aviating.com>
>> >
>> > There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary
>> AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
>> >
>> >> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> >> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must
>> think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are being
>> used in the newer 10s these days?
>> >> David McNeill
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
David,
I removed my original AFS EFIS, GNS530W, backup D-10A, and TruTrak AP in
early 2020.
I had previously installed a GTX345 for ADS-B. I kept the transponder and
added a G3X touch, GTN750xi, GMC507, Garmin servos, and a G5 for backup.
I bought everything from Stein, including a panel face and a complete
wiring harness. I opted to assemble and install the package myself. It
was a long process but service was above and beyond. I called Stein and
Garmin several times for support. No regrets. Both were both extremely
helpful and responsive. Stein provided a complete interconnect diagram in
the form of a 4' x 6' hardcopy that adorns my hangar wall.
As Stein mentioned, Garmin has a department devoted to experimentals. A
few times, especially for the 750, they passed my questions on to the
certified side but all have been answered.
While shopping it was clear that a Garmin navigator was really the only
choice. I looked at all the various systems. It came down to how
seamlessly the Garmin stuff interfaces, and the fact that they use
"industry standard" depictions. My airplane partners are airline types and
they seemed to recognize what they were seeing on the Garmins better than
other systems.
Another driver for the design was that we all wanted dedicated buttons and
knobs. Scrolling through menus is no fun when you're saturated. We could
have remoted the transponder and autopilot but a physical, never-changing
interface is a comfort.
If you use Foreflight, it connects by bluetooth for ADS-B and to transfer
flight plans to/from the panel.
I couldn't be happier with how it turned out. Before and after pictures
below.
--Dave
[image: Glass Panel.jpg][image: 10312021 New Panel small file.jpg]
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 2:48 PM dlm <dlm34077@gmail.com> wrote:
> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some
> future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s
> these days?
>
> David McNeill
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour on t
he Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software updates avail
able and a list of the improvements made with each revision. I could not fi
nd anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a frie
nd recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 soft
ware in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to harve
st the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do that from th
e Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it myself if I had ac
cess to the software and the goofy memory cards that Garmin used then.
I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year. T
o get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another $200. Dynon gi
ves me those for free. For another $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all the i
nstrument procedures charts and the low and high altitude charts and the abi
lity to display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing. The FlyQ charts
can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just transfer the updates
from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.
Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how much I w
ould have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation data for Garm
in if I had a complete Garmin panel. I could care less about =9CSafe T
axi=9D as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo referenced t
axi charts on my Dynon EFIS. I flew corporate jets professionally for a few
decades into 5,000-6000 different airports. I never had any trouble knowing
where I was on the airport, however I can see how it would be useful for th
ose that are not accustomed to throughly briefing themselves on the airport t
axi chart before they start the decent.
I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an installati
on manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could download one from Gar
min=99s website.
I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do they i
nclude installation manuals for everything they sell now? Will they actuall
y answer the phone and emails? Dynon has been doing that for a long time. H
ave they started to provide wiring diagrams to interface with everyone else
=99s devices? Dynon was doing that when I put my panel in 2 1/2 years ag
o.
I won=99t pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for ligh
t aircraft. However my experience with Garmin customer service has not been
very good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you out of an
ything that Garmin didn=99t make. I suppose a lot of manufacturers do t
hat to some degree, but Garmin seems to work the hardest at that. If they ar
e getting better I suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified for
a lot of the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like seeing G
armin getting kicked where it hurts because it will force them to get better
. There is nothing like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competitor to get
a company to start serving their customers better. Fierce competition tends
to improve customer service and make for competitive pricing from all the m
anufacturers. I don=99t want to see Garmin go away. I would like to se
e them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650.
Robert Jones
> On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein@steinair.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than mar
keting rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both
brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are a
lmost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for f
ree (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are t
he same additional $99 per year from either company.
>
> The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Ga
rmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling),
so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.
>
> Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do wi
th an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
>
> Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.
>
> Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brand
s for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warra
nty just like everyone else).
>
> Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the ex
perimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/
or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL. Software
updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, direct
ly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.
>
> It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your al
ternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.
>
> We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "
one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect
, not factual and therefore not credible.
>
> Cheers,
> Stein
>
>
>> On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl@gmail.com> wrot
e:
>>
>> I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and
approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the
cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everythi
ng else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (S
kyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the
approach plates. This works well and it isn=99t that expensive.
>> If you=99re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the update
s to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not in
clude software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only th
e dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could ma
ke do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to
own you forever.
>>
>> Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won=99t. As soon as they a
sk what licensed shop you work for and find out you don=99t work for o
ne the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin
shop and pay they to fix the problem. You don=99t even get an install
ation manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.
>>
>> If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix e
verything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV d
atabase costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you a
re planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn=99t fine. Please understa
nd that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate
the way they treat their customers.
>>
>> Robert Jones
>>
>> > On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote
:
>> >
ng.com>
>> >
>> > There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and G
armin. Depends on your budget and mission.
>> >
>> >> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> >> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of som
e future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s th
ese days?
>> >> David McNeill
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ==========
>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?RV10-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
LMGTFY about 30 seconds of googling
GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service Bulletin 2143 so
ftware version 6.72 https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=
12531
add-ons
https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50
manual
https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf
Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour on
the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software updates ava
ilable and a list of the improvements made with each revision. I could not
find anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a fr
iend recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 so
ftware in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to har
vest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do that from
the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it myself if I had
access to the software and the goofy memory cards that Garmin used then.
I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year.
To get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another $200. Dynon g
ives me those for free. For another $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all the
instrument procedures charts and the low and high altitude charts and the a
bility to display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing. The FlyQ char
ts can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just transfer the updat
es from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.
Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how much I
would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation data for Ga
rmin if I had a complete Garmin panel. I could care less about =9CSafe Taxi
=9D as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo referenced taxi chart
s on my Dynon EFIS. I flew corporate jets professionally for a few decades
into 5,000-6000 different airports. I never had any trouble knowing where I
was on the airport, however I can see how it would be useful for those that
are not accustomed to throughly briefing themselves on the airport taxi char
t before they start the decent.
I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an installat
ion manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could download one from Ga
rmin=99s website.
I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do they
include installation manuals for everything they sell now? Will they actua
lly answer the phone and emails? Dynon has been doing that for a long time.
Have they started to provide wiring diagrams to interface with everyone els
e=99s devices? Dynon was doing that when I put my panel in 2 1/2 years ago.
I won=99t pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for light air
craft. However my experience with Garmin customer service has not been very
good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you out of anythin
g that Garmin didn=99t make. I suppose a lot of manufacturers do that to som
e degree, but Garmin seems to work the hardest at that. If they are getting
better I suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified for a lot of
the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like seeing Garmin gett
ing kicked where it hurts because it will force them to get better. There is
nothing like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competitor to get a company
to start serving their customers better. Fierce competition tends to improv
e customer service and make for competitive pricing from all the manufacture
rs. I don=99t want to see Garmin go away. I would like to see them get bette
r than they were when I bought my GTN 650.
Robert Jones
On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein@steinair.com> wrote:
=EF=BB
This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than mark
eting rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both
brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are al
most identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for fr
ee (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are th
e same additional $99 per year from either company.
The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Gar
min EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling),
so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.
Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do wit
h an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.
Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brands
for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warran
ty just like everyone else).
Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the exp
erimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/o
r repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL. Software
updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, directl
y on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.
It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your alt
ernate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.
We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "o
ne is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect,
not factual and therefore not credible.
Cheers,
Stein
On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and a
pproaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the c
ost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything
else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (Sky
Q) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the a
pproach plates. This works well and it isn=99t that expensive.
If you=99re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates to kee
p everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include so
ftware updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer
can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could make do th
e updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you
forever.
Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won=99t. As soon as they ask what
licensed shop you work for and find out you don=99t work for one the convers
ation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay
they to fix the problem. You don=99t even get an installation manual for the
product you bought. Only the dealers get those.
If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix eve
rything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV da
tabase costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you ar
e planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn=99t fine. Please understand that
I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate the wa
y they treat their customers.
Robert Jones
> On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
> There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Gar
min. Depends on your budget and mission.
>
>> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some
future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s thes
e days?
>> David McNeill
>
>
>
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
RV10-List
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
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|
| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
You are not so lucky if you have a 430 or 530. Of course they would like us
to replace our older equipment so why would they give you access to softwar
e updates an manuals.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 18, 2022, at 1:53 PM, Jonathan Beasley <pilot@ncflyer.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> LMGTFY about 30 seconds of googling
>
> GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service Bulletin 2143 s
oftware version 6.72 https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id
=12531
>
> add-ons
> https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50
>
> manual
> https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf
>
>
> Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour o
n the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software updates av
ailable and a list of the improvements made with each revision. I could not
find anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a f
riend recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 s
oftware in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to ha
rvest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do that from
the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it myself if I had
access to the software and the goofy memory cards that Garmin used then.
>
> I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year.
To get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another $200. Dynon g
ives me those for free. For another $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all the
instrument procedures charts and the low and high altitude charts and the a
bility to display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing. The FlyQ char
ts can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just transfer the updat
es from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.
>
> Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how much I
would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation data for Ga
rmin if I had a complete Garmin panel. I could care less about =9CSaf
e Taxi=9D as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo reference
d taxi charts on my Dynon EFIS. I flew corporate jets professionally for a f
ew decades into 5,000-6000 different airports. I never had any trouble knowi
ng where I was on the airport, however I can see how it would be useful for t
hose that are not accustomed to throughly briefing themselves on the airport
taxi chart before they start the decent.
>
> I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an installa
tion manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could download one from G
armin=99s website.
>
> I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do the
y include installation manuals for everything they sell now? Will they actu
ally answer the phone and emails? Dynon has been doing that for a long time
. Have they started to provide wiring diagrams to interface with everyone el
se=99s devices? Dynon was doing that when I put my panel in 2 1/2 yea
rs ago.
>
> I won=99t pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for li
ght aircraft. However my experience with Garmin customer service has not be
en very good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you out of a
nything that Garmin didn=99t make. I suppose a lot of manufacturers do
that to some degree, but Garmin seems to work the hardest at that. If they a
re getting better I suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified fo
r a lot of the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like seeing G
armin getting kicked where it hurts because it will force them to get better
. There is nothing like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competitor to get
a company to start serving their customers better. Fierce competition tends
to improve customer service and make for competitive pricing from all the m
anufacturers. I don=99t want to see Garmin go away. I would like to se
e them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650.
>
> Robert Jones
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein@steinair.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than mar
keting rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we love both
brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because they are a
lmost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for f
ree (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are t
he same additional $99 per year from either company.
>
> The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have Ga
rmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of bundling),
so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.
>
> Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do wi
th an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
>
> Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.
>
> Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between brand
s for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out of warra
nty just like everyone else).
>
> Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the ex
perimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges and/
or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL. Software
updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for free, direct
ly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go download them.
>
> It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your al
ternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.
>
> We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole "
one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just incorrect
, not factual and therefore not credible.
>
> Cheers,
> Stein
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl@gmail.com> wrote
:
>
> I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and a
pproaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of the c
ost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because everything
else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (Sky
Q) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the a
pproach plates. This works well and it isn=99t that expensive.
> If you=99re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the updates
to keep everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not inc
lude software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the
dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could mak
e do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to o
wn you forever.
>
> Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won=99t. As soon as they as
k what licensed shop you work for and find out you don=99t work for on
e the conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin s
hop and pay they to fix the problem. You don=99t even get an installat
ion manual for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.
>
> If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix ev
erything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and NAV d
atabase costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you a
re planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn=99t fine. Please understa
nd that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate
the way they treat their customers.
>
> Robert Jones
>
> > On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
> >
g.com>
> >
> > There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and Ga
rmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
> >
> >> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
> >> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of some
future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s the
se days?
> >> David McNeill
> >
> >
> >
>
> ==========
> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navig
ator?RV10-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
Can your googlefoo find that $99 annual all charts/terrain/IFR subscription?
On 1/18/2022 12:44 PM, Jonathan Beasley wrote:
>
> LMGTFY about 30 seconds of googling
>
> GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service Bulletin
> 2143 software version 6.72
> https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531
> <https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531>
>
> add-ons
>
> https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50
>
> manual
>
> https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf
>
> Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an
> hour on the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the
> software updates available and a list of the improvements made with
> each revision. I could not find anywhere to get the actual updates. I
> put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a friend recently. He had a Garmin 530W
> in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 software in it and it needed to
> be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to harvest the GPS position
> from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do that from the Garmin
> dealer on the field. I could have easily done it myself if I had
> access to the software and the goofy memory cards that Garmin used then.
>
> I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a
> year. To get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another
> $200. Dynon gives me those for free. For another $169 a year I can
> get FlyQ with all the instrument procedures charts and the low and
> high altitude charts and the ability to display them on my Dynon EFIS
> with geo referencing. The FlyQ charts can now be updated using the
> Dynon WI-FI so I can just transfer the updates from my IPad to the USB
> sticks via WI-FI.
>
> Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how
> much I would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation
> data for Garmin if I had a complete Garmin panel. I could care less
> about Safe Taxi as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo
> referenced taxi charts on my Dynon EFIS. I flew corporate jets
> professionally for a few decades into 5,000-6000 different airports. I
> never had any trouble knowing where I was on the airport, however I
> can see how it would be useful for those that are not accustomed to
> throughly briefing themselves on the airport taxi chart before they
> start the decent.
>
> I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an
> installation manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could
> download one from Garmins website.
>
> I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do
> they include installation manuals for everything they sell now? Will
> they actually answer the phone and emails? Dynon has been doing that
> for a long time. Have they started to provide wiring diagrams to
> interface with everyone elses devices? Dynon was doing that when I
> put my panel in 2 1/2 years ago.
>
> I wont pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for light
> aircraft. However my experience with Garmin customer service has not
> been very good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you
> out of anything that Garmin didnt make. I suppose a lot of
> manufacturers do that to some degree, but Garmin seems to work the
> hardest at that. If they are getting better I suspect it is because
> Dynon started getting certified for a lot of the older aircraft and
> started eating their lunch. I like seeing Garmin getting kicked where
> it hurts because it will force them to get better. There is nothing
> like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competitor to get a company to
> start serving their customers better. Fierce competition tends to
> improve customer service and make for competitive pricing from all the
> manufacturers. I dont want to see Garmin go away. I would like to see
> them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650.
>
> Robert Jones
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein@steinair.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other
> than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both
> brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument
> is dubious, because they are almost identical. But for the base
> map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for free (Garmin charges $49
> per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same
> additional $99 per year from either company.
>
> The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you
> have Garmin EFISes then when youpair them with other brands
> (because of bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down
> on costs.
>
> Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what
> you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
>
> Install manuals? You can get any install manualyou want.
>
> Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount
> between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate
> repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).
>
> Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly
> with the experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will
> send you exchanges and/or repairsdirectlywithout needing to go
> through a dealer AT ALL. Software updates for the devices (YES,
> even your GTN) are available for free, directly on the Garmin
> website where you yourself can go downloadthem.
>
> It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up
> your alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.
>
> We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this
> whole "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below
> is just incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stein
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones
> <rjones560xl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <rjones560xl@gmail.com>
>
> I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR
> navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a complete
> Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I subscribe to
> the NAV updates for my 650 because everything else is free on
> the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ)
> to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as
> well as the approach plates. This works well and it isnt that
> expensive.
> If youre looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the
> updates to keep everything current are for the next 10 years,
> and that does not include software updates either. Dynon gives
> you them free. At Garmin, only the dealer can get access to
> the software updates, even though anyone could make do the
> updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin
> wants to own you forever.
>
> Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin wont. As soon as
> they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out you
> dont work for one the conversation is over. 0 support ever
> except to call a licensed Garmin shop and pay they to fix the
> problem. You dont even get an installation manual for the
> product you bought. Only the dealers get those.
>
> If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your
> panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future, are
> fine with the software and NAV database costs then Garmin is
> fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you are planning on
> doing it yourself, Garmin isnt fine. Please understand that I
> am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just
> hate the way they treat their customers.
>
> Robert Jones
>
> > On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen
> <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
> >
> <kellym@aviating.com>
> >
> > There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary
> AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
> >
> >> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
> >> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must
> think of some future replacement for them. What EFISs are
> being used in the newer 10s these days?
> >> David McNeill
> >
> >
> >
>
> ==========
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
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> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
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cmdldD0iX2JsYW5rIj5odHRwczovL21hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uPT09PT09PT09
PT0K
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
Sure: https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/support/pricing. Pick "G3X" and
you'll note the $49 option I mentioned, then the $149 option which is $100
incrementally more for the charts/plates/rtc as I previously noted. Google
is your friend =F0=9F=99=82
On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:30 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Can your googlefoo find that $99 annual all charts/terrain/IFR
> subscription?
>
> On 1/18/2022 12:44 PM, Jonathan Beasley wrote:
>
> LMGTFY about 30 seconds of googling
>
>
> GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service Bulletin 2143
> software version 6.72
> https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531
>
> add-ons
>
> https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50
>
>
> manual
>
> https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf
>
>
> Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent an hour
> on the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the software update
s
> available and a list of the improvements made with each revision. I coul
d
> not find anywhere to get the actual updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in f
or
> a friend recently. He had a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the
> 3.0 software in it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 softwa
re
> to harvest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to do
> that from the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily done it
> myself if I had access to the software and the goofy memory cards that
> Garmin used then.
>
>
> I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for $299 a year
.
> To get base map and terrain updates it would be $499, another $200. Dyno
n
> gives me those for free. For another $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all
> the instrument procedures charts and the low and high altitude charts and
> the ability to display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing. The
> FlyQ charts can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just transf
er
> the updates from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.
>
>
> Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me how much
> I would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR navigation data fo
r
> Garmin if I had a complete Garmin panel. I could care less about
=9CSafe
> Taxi=9D as the equivalent is provided by FlyQ with the geo referenc
ed taxi
> charts on my Dynon EFIS. I flew corporate jets professionally for a few
> decades into 5,000-6000 different airports. I never had any trouble
> knowing where I was on the airport, however I can see how it would be
> useful for those that are not accustomed to throughly briefing themselves
> on the airport taxi chart before they start the decent.
>
>
> I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an
> installation manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could download
> one from Garmin=99s website.
>
>
> I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of Garmin. Do
> they include installation manuals for everything they sell now? Will the
y
> actually answer the phone and emails? Dynon has been doing that for a lo
ng
> time. Have they started to provide wiring diagrams to interface with
> everyone else=99s devices? Dynon was doing that when I put my pane
l in 2 1/2
> years ago.
>
>
> I won=99t pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for l
ight
> aircraft. However my experience with Garmin customer service has not bee
n
> very good. My experience with Garmin is that they try to lock you out of
> anything that Garmin didn=99t make. I suppose a lot of manufacturer
s do that
> to some degree, but Garmin seems to work the hardest at that. If they are
> getting better I suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified fo
r
> a lot of the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like seeing
> Garmin getting kicked where it hurts because it will force them to get
> better. There is nothing like getting thrashed a bit by a strong competit
or
> to get a company to start serving their customers better. Fierce
> competition tends to improve customer service and make for competitive
> pricing from all the manufacturers. I don=99t want to see Garmin go
away. I
> would like to see them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650
.
>
>
> Robert Jones
>
>
> On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein@steinair.com>
> <stein@steinair.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
>
> This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality other than
> marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot of both brands, we lov
e
> both brands, but the whole "update cost" argument is dubious, because the
y
> are almost identical. But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives o
ut
> for free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the plates/charts/sectionals, etc
..
> are the same additional $99 per year from either company.
>
>
> The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER when you have
> Garmin EFISes then when you pair them with other brands (because of
> bundling), so in that case you're actually upside down on costs.
>
>
> Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of what you do
> with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
>
>
> Install manuals? You can get any install manual you want.
>
>
> Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount between
> brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat rate repair fees out
of
> warranty just like everyone else).
>
>
> Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt directly with the
> experimental side of the Garmin team - where they will send you exchanges
> and/or repairs directly without needing to go through a dealer AT ALL.
> Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN) are available for
> free, directly on the Garmin website where you yourself can go
> download them.
>
>
> It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to make up your
> alternate reality own based on personal bias or utter falsehoods.
>
>
> We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but this whole
> "one is superior to the other" based on your comments below is just
> incorrect, not factual and therefore not credible.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stein
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones <rjones560xl@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for IFR navigation and
> approaches. I personally would avoid a complete Garmin panel because of t
he
> cost of updates. I subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because
> everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in bed with Seattle
> Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS
as
> well as the approach plates. This works well and it isn=99t that ex
pensive.
> If you=99re looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what the update
s to keep
> everything current are for the next 10 years, and that does not include
> software updates either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the
> dealer can get access to the software updates, even though anyone could
> make do the updates if they had access to the files. Basically Garmin wan
ts
> to own you forever.
>
> Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin won=99t. As soon as they a
sk what
> licensed shop you work for and find out you don=99t work for one th
e
> conversation is over. 0 support ever except to call a licensed Garmin sho
p
> and pay they to fix the problem. You don=99t even get an installati
on manual
> for the product you bought. Only the dealers get those.
>
> If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your panel and fix
> everything that goes wrong in the future, are fine with the software and
> NAV database costs then Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself.
If
> you are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isn=99t fine. Please
understand
> that I am not badmouthing the Garmin products. They are fine. I just hate
> the way they treat their customers.
>
> Robert Jones
>
> > On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com> wrote
:
> >
ng.com>
> >
> > There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's subsidiary AFS) and
> Garmin. Depends on your budget and mission.
> >
> >> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
> >> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I must think of som
e
> future replacement for them. What EFISs are being used in the newer 10s
> these days?
> >> David McNeill
> >
> >
> >
>
> ==========
> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm
_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free
.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm
_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link>
> <#m_698323187804499946_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Chelton replacements |
I don't see 'IFR' or 'approach' listed in that price category. All the
stuff that is listed is available free for the USA from multiple other
vendors for their products.
On 1/18/2022 7:33 PM, SteinB wrote:
> Sure: https://fly.garmin.com/fly-garmin/support/pricing. Pick "G3X"
> and you'll note the $49 option I mentioned, then the $149 option which
> is $100 incrementally more for the charts/plates/rtc as I previously
> noted. Google is your friend
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:30 PM Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Can your googlefoo find that $99 annual all charts/terrain/IFR
> subscription?
>
> On 1/18/2022 12:44 PM, Jonathan Beasley wrote:
>>
>> LMGTFY about 30 seconds of googling
>>
>> GTN 6XX/7XX - Software Loader Image 006-B1367-3K - Service
>> Bulletin 2143 software version 6.72
>> https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531
>> <https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12531>
>>
>> add-ons
>>
>> https://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00813-50
>>
>> manual
>>
>> https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01004-03_M.pdf
>>
>> Send me the link for the software updates for my GTN650. I spent
>> an hour on the Garmin site and all I could find was a list of the
>> software updates available and a list of the improvements made
>> with each revision. I could not find anywhere to get the actual
>> updates. I put an ECHO ADSB unit in for a friend recently. He had
>> a Garmin 530W in his aircraft. It still had the 3.0 software in
>> it and it needed to be upgraded to the 5.0 and 5.4 software to
>> harvest the GPS position from it for the ECHO. It cost $170.00 to
>> do that from the Garmin dealer on the field. I could have easily
>> done it myself if I had access to the software and the goofy
>> memory cards that Garmin used then.
>>
>> I only subscribe to the Navigation database for my GTN650 for
>> $299 a year. To get base map and terrain updates it would be
>> $499, another $200. Dynon gives me those for free. For another
>> $169 a year I can get FlyQ with all the instrument procedures
>> charts and the low and high altitude charts and the ability to
>> display them on my Dynon EFIS with geo referencing. The FlyQ
>> charts can now be updated using the Dynon WI-FI so I can just
>> transfer the updates from my IPad to the USB sticks via WI-FI.
>>
>> Since I have not looked into this for a couple of years, show me
>> how much I would have to pay for base maps, terrain and the IFR
>> navigation data for Garmin if I had a complete Garmin panel. I
>> could care less about Safe Taxi as the equivalent is provided
>> by FlyQ with the geo referenced taxi charts on my Dynon EFIS. I
>> flew corporate jets professionally for a few decades into
>> 5,000-6000 <tel:000-6000> different airports. I never had any
>> trouble knowing where I was on the airport, however I can see how
>> it would be useful for those that are not accustomed to throughly
>> briefing themselves on the airport taxi chart before they start
>> the decent.
>>
>> I bought my GTN 650 from a Garmin dealer. It did not come with an
>> installation manual. Perhaps you could point me to where I could
>> download one from Garmins website.
>>
>> I have not had any experience with the Experimental side of
>> Garmin. Do they include installation manuals for everything they
>> sell now? Will they actually answer the phone and emails? Dynon
>> has been doing that for a long time. Have they started to provide
>> wiring diagrams to interface with everyone elses devices? Dynon
>> was doing that when I put my panel in 2 1/2 years ago.
>>
>> I wont pretend that I am current on everything in avionics for
>> light aircraft. However my experience with Garmin customer
>> service has not been very good. My experience with Garmin is that
>> they try to lock you out of anything that Garmin didnt make. I
>> suppose a lot of manufacturers do that to some degree, but Garmin
>> seems to work the hardest at that. If they are getting better I
>> suspect it is because Dynon started getting certified for a lot
>> of the older aircraft and started eating their lunch. I like
>> seeing Garmin getting kicked where it hurts because it will force
>> them to get better. There is nothing like getting thrashed a bit
>> by a strong competitor to get a company to start serving their
>> customers better. Fierce competition tends to improve customer
>> service and make for competitive pricing from all the
>> manufacturers. I dont want to see Garmin go away. I would like
>> to see them get better than they were when I bought my GTN 650.
>>
>> Robert Jones
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 18, 2022, at 8:31 AM, SteinB <stein@steinair.com>
>> <mailto:stein@steinair.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> This is an oft repeated wives tail not based in any reality
>> other than marketing rhetoric or personal bias. We sell a lot
>> of both brands, we love both brands, but the whole "update
>> cost" argument is dubious, because they are almost identical.
>> But for the base map VFR charts which Dynon gives out for
>> free (Garmin charges $49 per year), the
>> plates/charts/sectionals, etc.. are the same additional $99
>> per year from either company.
>>
>> The updates for your GTN are actually a good deal CHEAPER
>> when you have Garmin EFISes then when youpair them with
>> other brands (because of bundling), so in that case you're
>> actually upside down on costs.
>>
>> Avidyne? They also have the same update costs regardless of
>> what you do with an EFIS, so that's a push/wash.
>>
>> Install manuals? You can get any install manualyou want.
>>
>> Flat rate repairs? They are almost identical in their amount
>> between brands for similar devices (yep, Dynon charges flat
>> rate repair fees out of warranty just like everyone else).
>>
>> Support? Apparently (and obviously) you haven't dealt
>> directly with the experimental side of the Garmin team -
>> where they will send you exchanges and/or
>> repairsdirectlywithout needing to go through a dealer AT
>> ALL. Software updates for the devices (YES, even your GTN)
>> are available for free, directly on the Garmin website where
>> you yourself can go downloadthem.
>>
>> It's fine to be ignorant of the facts, but it's dubious to
>> make up your alternate reality own based on personal bias or
>> utter falsehoods.
>>
>> We'll happily sell you either brand, we love both brands, but
>> this whole "one is superior to the other" based on your
>> comments below is just incorrect, not factual and therefore
>> not credible.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Stein
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 9:55 PM Robert Jones
>> <rjones560xl@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <rjones560xl@gmail.com>
>>
>> I have a 3 screen Dynon panel with a Garmin GTN650 for
>> IFR navigation and approaches. I personally would avoid a
>> complete Garmin panel because of the cost of updates. I
>> subscribe to the NAV updates for my 650 because
>> everything else is free on the Dynon EFIS. Dynon got in
>> bed with Seattle Avionics (SkyQ) to display low or high
>> altitude charts on the Dynon EFIS as well as the approach
>> plates. This works well and it isnt that expensive.
>> If youre looking at a 100% Garmin panel, look at what
>> the updates to keep everything current are for the next
>> 10 years, and that does not include software updates
>> either. Dynon gives you them free. At Garmin, only the
>> dealer can get access to the software updates, even
>> though anyone could make do the updates if they had
>> access to the files. Basically Garmin wants to own you
>> forever.
>>
>> Dynon will give you tech support. Garmin wont. As soon
>> as they ask what licensed shop you work for and find out
>> you dont work for one the conversation is over. 0
>> support ever except to call a licensed Garmin shop and
>> pay they to fix the problem. You dont even get an
>> installation manual for the product you bought. Only the
>> dealers get those.
>>
>> If you are going to hire a Garmin dealer to overhaul your
>> panel and fix everything that goes wrong in the future,
>> are fine with the software and NAV database costs then
>> Garmin is fine. I put my whole panel in myself. If you
>> are planning on doing it yourself, Garmin isnt fine.
>> Please understand that I am not badmouthing the Garmin
>> products. They are fine. I just hate the way they treat
>> their customers.
>>
>> Robert Jones
>>
>> > On Jan 17, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Kelly McMullen
>> <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
>> >
>> <kellym@aviating.com>
>> >
>> > There are 3 main ones. Grt Dynon (as well as it's
>> subsidiary AFS) and Garmin. Depends on your budget and
>> mission.
>> >
>> >> On 1/17/2022 3:42 PM, dlm wrote:
>> >> My DU1s and Crossbow AHRS are no longer supported. I
>> must think of some future replacement for them. What
>> EFISs are being used in the newer 10s these days?
>> >> David McNeill
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ==========
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>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ="noreferrer"
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>> ==========
>>
>>
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