---------------------------------------------------------- RV12-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/26/08: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:08 AM - Just A Few More Days... (Matt Dralle) 1. 07:24 AM - Re: RV-12 as a True E-LSA () 2. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: RV-12 as a True E-LSA (John Cox) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:37 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV12-List: Just A Few More Days... Dear Listers, There are just a few more days left in this year's List Fund Raiser. There are some great gifts available when you make a qualifying Contribution and there's plenty still available. Don't forget that its *your* Contribution that keeps the computers running, the electricity turned on, and the computer room AC cooling! If you look forward to reading your List email each day, won't you please take a minute right now to make your personal Contribution? Credit Card or Paypal: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Personal Check: Matronics / Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore, CA 94550 Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:40 AM PST US From: Subject: RV12-List: Re: RV-12 as a True E-LSA 11/26/2008 Hello Rick, Thanks for your quick response. You wrote: 1) "So the answer to your question is, no, at this time there is no way to build an E-LSA without having a registration issued before 1-31-2008, and that only last until the expiration of the extension on 1-31-2010." We both agree on the above. 2) "Per the above, the FAA accepted ASTM standard is F2536-06." http://www.astm.org/Standards/F2563.htm I stand corrected -- the instruction standard does exist. And I feel that if Vans instructions for assembling the RV-12 kit meet that standard then, eventually when the other LSA boxes are appropriately filled by Vans, then a kit built RV-12 should be able to be built, registered, and certified as a true E-LSA. I thank you for educating me. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Girard" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:52 AM Subject: Re: RV-12 as a True E-LSA "To my knowledge no such "applicable consensus standard" exists. If no such standard exists then Vans cannot possibly be providing assembly instructions for the RV-12 kit that meets that standard." See: http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/standards_chart_v2.pdf Per the above, the FAA accepted ASTM standard is F2536-06. >From Van's web site: "The RV-12 meets the certification standards of the *L* ight *S*port *A*ircraft category", however I can find no update that says they have a statement of compliance, yet. Since S-LSA certification is done by the delegation option, i.e. the manufacturer says it is in compliance, therefore it is. My understanding is that at this time the FAA requires submission of POH and the maintenance manual and an inspection of the facilities to obtain S-LSA manufacturing, but I haven't seen anything about how the FAA will go about the process for someone like Van's that has no intention of building the actual S-LSA, only the kits. "One can convert an S-LSA to an E-LSA if you can prove that the original manufacturer is no longer supporting their S-LSAs. For example, if the company went out of business. I don't know if there are any in this category, yet." While this is the justification for 21.191(i)3, there is no requirement for fleet abandonment. Down grading the aircraft from S-LSA to E-LSA means that the aircraft can no longer be used for training or hire and you'd have to be an idiot to do it (IMHO), but there is no prohibition against making your Cessna 162 (say) an E-LSA. So the answer to your question is, no, at this time there is no way to build an E-LSA without having a registration issued before 1-31-2008, and that only last until the expiration of the extension on 1-31-2010. Rick ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:25 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV12-List: Re: RV-12 as a True E-LSA From: "John Cox" To add to this important discussion, it is my understanding that the RV-12 kit "in its entirety" has not yet been FAA blessed. Further, under the ARC 51% perspective by the FAA participants, there is a small but real risk that it might not be without some healthy attitude change by the FAA on what constitutes - 51%. Your comments (forwarded to the FAA) prior to the final/final deadline of December 15th could have a compelling impact. Can anyone advise? John Cox -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv12-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv12-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bakerocb@COX.NET Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:25 AM Subject: RV12-List: Re: RV-12 as a True E-LSA 11/26/2008 Hello Rick, Thanks for your quick response. You wrote: 1) "So the answer to your question is, no, at this time there is no way to build an E-LSA without having a registration issued before 1-31-2008, and that only last until the expiration of the extension on 1-31-2010." We both agree on the above. 2) "Per the above, the FAA accepted ASTM standard is F2536-06." http://www.astm.org/Standards/F2563.htm I stand corrected -- the instruction standard does exist. And I feel that if Vans instructions for assembling the RV-12 kit meet that standard then, eventually when the other LSA boxes are appropriately filled by Vans, then a kit built RV-12 should be able to be built, registered, and certified as a true E-LSA. I thank you for educating me. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Girard" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:52 AM Subject: Re: RV-12 as a True E-LSA "To my knowledge no such "applicable consensus standard" exists. If no such standard exists then Vans cannot possibly be providing assembly instructions for the RV-12 kit that meets that standard." See: http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/standards_chart_v2. pdf Per the above, the FAA accepted ASTM standard is F2536-06. >From Van's web site: "The RV-12 meets the certification standards of the *L* ight *S*port *A*ircraft category", however I can find no update that says they have a statement of compliance, yet. Since S-LSA certification is done by the delegation option, i.e. the manufacturer says it is in compliance, therefore it is. My understanding is that at this time the FAA requires submission of POH and the maintenance manual and an inspection of the facilities to obtain S-LSA manufacturing, but I haven't seen anything about how the FAA will go about the process for someone like Van's that has no intention of building the actual S-LSA, only the kits. "One can convert an S-LSA to an E-LSA if you can prove that the original manufacturer is no longer supporting their S-LSAs. For example, if the company went out of business. I don't know if there are any in this category, yet." While this is the justification for 21.191(i)3, there is no requirement for fleet abandonment. Down grading the aircraft from S-LSA to E-LSA means that the aircraft can no longer be used for training or hire and you'd have to be an idiot to do it (IMHO), but there is no prohibition against making your Cessna 162 (say) an E-LSA. So the answer to your question is, no, at this time there is no way to build an E-LSA without having a registration issued before 1-31-2008, and that only last until the expiration of the extension on 1-31-2010. Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv12-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV12-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv12-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv12-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.