Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:31 AM - Re: RV4-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/05/04 (rob ray)
2. 08:43 AM - Re: > Re:Re; Electric vs Manual Flaps & Trim (rob ray)
3. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: RV-4 Electric vs. Manual trim & Flaps (Scott Vanartsdalen)
4. 10:49 PM - Re: Re: RV-4 Electric vs. Manual trim & Flaps (Arvil)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV4-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/05/04 |
--> RV4-List message posted by: rob ray <smokyray@yahoo.com>
Hey Frank,
Counterpoint: try landing at my 900' strip sometime with NO flaps...and then try
taking off when it's soft with electric flaps....Another option with manual
flaps is building in "reflex" flaps with 5 degrees up incidence like the Maule,
good for a few knots at cruise. Ever tried changing the broken electric flap
motor in BF, Arkansas on the ramp in the rain... I personally have seen two break
after less than 100 hours.
BTW, dogfighting takes on a whole new meaning when you can "pop flaps" to give
a better turn at slow speed...try it....
It all depends on what kind of flying you do and how much you like running wires,
buying motors and servos and flying straight and level.....
Rob Ray
RV4-List Digest Server <rv4-list-digest@matronics.com> wrote:
*
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Total Messages Posted Sat 06/05/04: 5
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:22 PM - RV-4 Electric vs Manual trim & flaps (Frankhsmit@wmconnect.com)
2. 06:12 PM - Re: RV-4 Electric vs. Manual trim & Flaps (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
3. 06:28 PM - Re: Re: RV-4 Electric vs. Manual trim & Flaps (Greg Hunsicker)
4. 07:37 PM - > Re:Re; Electric vs Manual Flaps & Trim (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
5. 11:54 PM - Re: Re: RV4-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 05/30/04 (Gene Smith)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 03:22:05 PM PST US
From: Frankhsmit@wmconnect.com
Subject: RV4-List: RV-4 Electric vs Manual trim & flaps
--> RV4-List message posted by: Frankhsmit@wmconnect.com
I am a lurker, and probably enough said already, but I couldn't let this one
pass. For anyone building or revamping the RV-4 I would strongly recommend
electric for all. My current RV-4, which has 1400 hours over 11 years has had no
failures in either. The MAC servos are mounted in the elevator, the aileron,
and the rudder. I did use the matronics speed control for the elevator. It
gives very precise control of attitude. A quick touch of the switch will
give a barely perceptible movement of the airplane. The same goes for the
aileron control. This has a tab on the aileron. I haven't had any experience
with
the spring loading of the stick system. On the quick movement possible with
the manual flaps, this is a good point, but not really necessary in the RV-4.
This is such a good, easy to fly airplane, that you don't really need flaps.
Try a few landings without them. If you have to use them, you can slowly
retract them on final with electrics.
This is the third RV-4 that I have built. The first was all manual. Believe
me if you have a big guy with big feet in the back, getting the lever into
the notch will be a problem, a problem you don't need on final. Also as I
recall the plane has to be slowed down quite a bit before you can get the lever
into that last notch. With the electric I can start them down at 100K. The
manual was such a problem that I retrofitted the electric to this plane. So in
summary the electric is safer(easier to operate), lighter, and more precise.
This is why Van went to it in all his new airplanes. It's better, IMHO. As
far as windy, especially crosswind conditions are concerned, I don't use
flaps, as I have better control without them. FWIW Frank
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 06:12:58 PM PST US
From: Oldsfolks@aol.com
Subject: RV4-List: Re: RV-4 Electric vs. Manual trim & Flaps
--> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
I have to agree with Rob Ray on the Manual flaps and trim. If you are flying
into short and rough strips you need to be able to get positive results, NOW
!!
If all your flying is from long paved runways , then the electric may be
okay,if you like that - I don't.
My grass strip is 1100 feet long ,with approach between trees, and I have to
be pretty precise with touchdown point and flap retract in order to get
braking,if needed.
Van's says 100 MPH for flaps and I find that is quite sastisfactory. Forcing
the flaps at higher speed puts extra stress on structures which don't need
it. If you fly a decent approach you don't need the flaps at higher speeds.
I always use full flaps for landings for the slowest touchdown speed so I'm
not adding unecessary stress and loads on the plane. I can land diagonally
across most runways with less crosswind component,when I am as slow as possible.
This has worked well for me for 8,000 + hours of bush type flying,with 760
of that in our RV-4's.
My preference for your consideration,
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 06:28:15 PM PST US
From: Greg Hunsicker
Subject: RE: RV4-List: Re: RV-4 Electric vs. Manual trim & Flaps
--> RV4-List message posted by: Greg Hunsicker
Shh! You're gonna wake up Smokey then we will all have to hear more
about F-16's that really have nothing to do with RV's.
In good humor!
LOL
Greg Hunsicker
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Oldsfolks@aol.com
Subject: RV4-List: Re: RV-4 Electric vs. Manual trim & Flaps
--> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
I have to agree with Rob Ray on the Manual flaps and trim. If you are
flying
into short and rough strips you need to be able to get positive results,
NOW
!!
If all your flying is from long paved runways , then the electric may be
okay,if you like that - I don't.
My grass strip is 1100 feet long ,with approach between trees, and I
have to
be pretty precise with touchdown point and flap retract in order to get
braking,if needed.
Van's says 100 MPH for flaps and I find that is quite sastisfactory.
Forcing
the flaps at higher speed puts extra stress on structures which don't
need
it. If you fly a decent approach you don't need the flaps at higher
speeds.
I always use full flaps for landings for the slowest touchdown speed so
I'm
not adding unecessary stress and loads on the plane. I can land
diagonally
across most runways with less crosswind component,when I am as slow as
possible.
This has worked well for me for 8,000 + hours of bush type flying,with
760
of that in our RV-4's.
My preference for your consideration,
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
==
==
==
==
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 07:37:29 PM PST US
From: Oldsfolks@aol.com
Subject: RV4-List: > Re:Re; Electric vs Manual Flaps & Trim
--> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
Sorry Greg;
I figured the working older folks had gone to bed by now.
do not archive
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
Time: 11:54:01 PM PST US
From: "Gene Smith"
Subject: Re: RV4-List: Re: RV4-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 05/30/04
--> RV4-List message posted by: "Gene Smith"
I agree with you on the manual trim and flaps...It hardly seems necessary on
the -4
On the duct tape for the oil cooler situation, I meant to say use METAL duct
tape...There is aluminum and stainless in most hardware
stores...................CHEERS!!!!...................Gene Smith.
----- Original Message -----
From: "rob ray"
Subject: RV4-List: Re: RV4-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 05/30/04
> --> RV4-List message posted by: rob ray
>
> Take it from me, I would leave the manual trim setup with a lever in the
RV4. This coming from someone spoiled by electric trim all his life in the
F16 and 737. The RV's just don't need electric trim and the manual trim is
trouble free....the same goes for the manual flaps...just my humble opinion.
>
> Rob Ray
>
> 1400 hours RV4
> "manual pilot"
>
> RV4-List Digest Server wrote:
> *
>
> ==================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
> Today's complete RV4-List Digest can be also be found in either
> of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
> formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
> Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
> version of the RV4-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic
> text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
> Text Version:
>
>
> ================================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
> RV4-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Sun 05/30/04: 2
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 04:52 PM - Electric Manual Trim? (Dave Durakovich)
> 2. 05:33 PM - Re: Electric Manual Trim? (CBRxxDRV@aol.com)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:52:51 PM PST US
> From: Dave Durakovich
>
> Subject: RV4-List: Electric Manual Trim?
>
> --> RV4-List message posted by: Dave Durakovich
>
>
> Been lurking for awhile, and decided it's time to come out of the closet!
>
> As a new builder of a -4:
>
> Old airplane, started in 1989,
> I'm the 5th owner, and probably only the 2nd owner to actually do
anything,
> This bird probably has more miles on it than my Cherokee,
> Nearly done and I still have more pieces than I know what to do with!
>
> I'm at the stage of installing cockpit controls. As acquired this bird was
set
> up with the manual elevator trim. And while I have nothing against the
manual
> trim, I'm not thrilled about the location of the control. Hence, my
question.
>
> I realize I can pull the existing manual push/pull cable out and go with a
servo.
> However, since it's already there, what about just mounting a servo in
place
> of the manual lever? There seems to be minimal drag on the cable alone,
and
> I may need to fab a bracket to get the correct travel. I suspect there
will be
> little weight penalty, if any, but I'm just not sure of the additional
force
> required.
>
> Has anyone tried this? Any of you guys out there want to venture a guess?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave Durakovich
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:33:16 PM PST US
> From: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
> Subject: Re: RV4-List: Electric Manual Trim?
>
> --> RV4-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 5/30/04 7:53:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ddurakovich@yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> > I realize I can pull the existing manual push/pull cable out and go with
a
> > servo. However, since it's already there, what about just mounting a
servo in
>
> > place of the manual lever? There seems to be minimal drag on the cable
> > alone, and I may need to fab a bracket to get the correct travel. I
suspect there
>
> > will be little weight penalty, if any, but I'm just not sure of the
> > additional force required.
> >
>
> My -4 has the trim servo mounted at the end of the trim cable.
> I figure it was done the same time the owner added electric flaps.
> There is no trim handle, makes service easy I would guess. It seems to
> work just fine. (mounted below throttle on left side of cockpit)
>
>
> Sal Capra
> Lakeland, FL
> My Home Page
> http://hometown.aol.com/cbrxxdrv/index.html
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
---------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: > Re:Re; Electric vs Manual Flaps & Trim |
--> RV4-List message posted by: rob ray <smokyray@yahoo.com>
Greg, OUCH, I am deeply hurt....
Ha!
Rob Ray
Oldsfolks@aol.com wrote:
--> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
Sorry Greg;
I figured the working older folks had gone to bed by now.
do not archive
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
ion
---------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RV-4 Electric vs. Manual trim & Flaps |
--> RV4-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Bob/Ray/others,
What speed do you use for short field approach? I did all kinds of short field
work in my Champ and doggone one of these days I'm going to learn to slow my
RV-4 down. I'd like a target airspeed to start with (at altitude) and see how
it works then adjust it up or down for my plane.
Thanks!
Oldsfolks@aol.com wrote:
--> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
I have to agree with Rob Ray on the Manual flaps and trim. If you are flying
into short and rough strips you need to be able to get positive results, NOW
!!
If all your flying is from long paved runways , then the electric may be
okay,if you like that - I don't.
My grass strip is 1100 feet long ,with approach between trees, and I have to
be pretty precise with touchdown point and flap retract in order to get
braking,if needed.
Van's says 100 MPH for flaps and I find that is quite sastisfactory. Forcing
the flaps at higher speed puts extra stress on structures which don't need
it. If you fly a decent approach you don't need the flaps at higher speeds.
I always use full flaps for landings for the slowest touchdown speed so I'm
not adding unecessary stress and loads on the plane. I can land diagonally
across most runways with less crosswind component,when I am as slow as possible.
This has worked well for me for 8,000 + hours of bush type flying,with 760
of that in our RV-4's.
My preference for your consideration,
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
When a man does all he can
though it succeeds not well,
blame not him that did it."
-- George Washington
Message 4
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Robert Ray <betsynbob@peoplepc.com>, Rob Ray <smokyray@yahoo.com>
| Subject: | Re: RV-4 Electric vs. Manual trim & Flaps |
--> RV4-List message posted by: Arvil <arvil@bellsouth.net>
Scott,
The RV-4 will fly at 50 miles an hour with full flaps and a little power to matain
your decent, this may be a little high or a little low depending on the prop
and the weight of the plane and how well it is riged, but it will be perty
close , I have a 900 foot strip in north west fla.
that is down hill 3 drgees with 60 foot trees at the end of the runnway , using
a 50mph. approch speed again with a little power an RV-4 using manual flaps
can land in 450 feet with only a little braking and the flaps dumped at tuch
down are just after
Rob Ray, yes the F-16 hot rod known as < Smokey > flys in my strip on a monthly
bases and rarely uses half of it, I flew a 1960 210 in and out of my strip
for severl years with no problem , There is no magic to short field landings
I learnd to fly in 1964 and have aways practices
short field landings , over the years I have had 5 inflight problems that caused
me to make a force landing they were uneventful do to plenty of practices ,at
slow landings, Rob,s Dad also had a force landing that tour up his plane but
do to his slow flight experance he survived the
crash !
The main thing Bob, and Rob, were trying to point out is you are 4 times more likly
to have problems with Elec/ Mechanical, flaps, and trim, then just Mechanical
flaps, and trim , even tho a lot of people havent had eney problems, I prefer
to reduce the ods as much as I can,
Arvil Porter
Scott Vanartsdalen wrote:
> --> RV4-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>
> Bob/Ray/others,
> What speed do you use for short field approach? I did all kinds of short field
work in my Champ and doggone one of these days I'm going to learn to slow my
RV-4 down. I'd like a target airspeed to start with (at altitude) and see how
it works then adjust it up or down for my plane.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Oldsfolks@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
>
> I have to agree with Rob Ray on the Manual flaps and trim. If you are flying
> into short and rough strips you need to be able to get positive results, NOW
> !!
> If all your flying is from long paved runways , then the electric may be
> okay,if you like that - I don't.
> My grass strip is 1100 feet long ,with approach between trees, and I have to
> be pretty precise with touchdown point and flap retract in order to get
> braking,if needed.
> Van's says 100 MPH for flaps and I find that is quite sastisfactory. Forcing
> the flaps at higher speed puts extra stress on structures which don't need
> it. If you fly a decent approach you don't need the flaps at higher speeds.
> I always use full flaps for landings for the slowest touchdown speed so I'm
> not adding unecessary stress and loads on the plane. I can land diagonally
> across most runways with less crosswind component,when I am as slow as possible.
> This has worked well for me for 8,000 + hours of bush type flying,with 760
> of that in our RV-4's.
> My preference for your consideration,
>
> Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
> A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
> Charleston,Arkansas
> Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
>
> When a man does all he can
> though it succeeds not well,
> blame not him that did it."
> -- George Washington
>
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