Today's Message Index:
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1. 07:41 AM - Re: RV4-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/16/04 (Steve Mullins)
2. 08:20 AM - Re: >Re: Rivets on RVs (LessDragProd@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RE: RV4-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/16/04 |
--> RV4-List message posted by: "Steve Mullins" <smullins@drury.edu>
Very interesting discussion RE: crank loads and acro.
I have a -4 with a FP wood prop. Do rolls (pulling no more than 2.5+ G's)
fall in the "high angular velocity changes" category?
Steven D. Mullins
Associate Professor of Economics
The Breech School of Business Administration
Drury University
417.889.5609 (Home)
417.873.7299 (Office)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV4-List Digest
Server
Subject: RV4-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/16/04
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Total Messages Posted Sat 10/16/04: 2
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:42 PM - Re: Rivets on RVs (Alfredo Santoro)
2. 06:04 PM - >Re: Rivets on RVs (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 03:42:16 PM PST US
From: "Alfredo Santoro" <alfredo.santoro@poste.it>
Subject: Re: RV4-List: Rivets on RVs
--> RV4-List message posted by: "Alfredo Santoro"
--> <alfredo.santoro@poste.it>
Thank you Rob, Your answer has been really useful, and it's good news also!
Because an RV 4 kit is less expensive, final result is better looking (in
our opinion) and I do not need cabin room, being myself quite small.
I understand from what you wrote that the RV 8 is not stronger than the RV
4, and that is what I needed to know, since I will like practicing a little
of careful aerobatics with my plane, the day I will have one...
The only issue that still makes me think about RV4 and RV8 is a message a
pilot posted in Matt's Aerobatics List a few months ago. I will cite it
here:
>GUYS: Those of you who have RV's, and want to do acro.
>From a long-time acro instructor.
> ALL of the RV's are designed with prop shaft extensions, and please
>be aware that this single factor is tremendously limiting in pulling
>any kind of "G" with these planes, or in doing any kind of
>high-angular-velocity changes.
> Remember that the prop is a tremendous gyroscope, and as such, when you
>introduce high angular rate changes, the forces on that gyroscope are
>tremendous, and when you add in the moment arm of that prop shaft
>extension, you are placing unrealistic loads on the crankshaft.
> If you continue with this action, the inevitable result will be, one
>day, that your prop instantaneously departs from the plane. There will
>be no warning, the crank will just break, and all that forward weight
>will be lost.
> Think about what that does to your CG, and then decide if you want to
>continue doing any kind of serious acro in your RV's.
> Van says that it is not an acro bird. He's right. It is a wonderful
>plane, but it isn't designed for this kind of flight.
>Lee Taylor"
Then a guy answered:
>Aerobatic-List message posted by: Ken Balch <kbalch@cfl.rr.com>
>Not true. While certainly the case with the earlier birds, the 'modern'
>RVs (the -7 & -8, anyway) do not require the prop extensions. My RV-8
>(Lyc. IO-360-A1B6 & Hartzell c/s) doesn't have one. This was one of my
>deciding issues when I built the plane: I didn't want a bird with a
>prop extension.
>
>Regards,
>Ken Balch
>RV-8 N118KB
>Pitts Model 12 N612KB (under construction)
Now, I read that since 1993, RVs have been available with the short cowl
option, which allows the use of a 2.25" extension rather than a 4"
extension. RVs can also use either FP wood props or CS metal props, which
have very different weights.
So I guess that to have no worries at all about that torque I only need to
make sure my RV 4 had the short cowl and short extension, and maybe a FP
wood prop.
Do you agree?
Thank you.
Alfredo.
----- Original Message -----
From: "rob ray" <smokyray@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV4-List: Rivets on RVs
> --> RV4-List message posted by: rob ray <smokyray@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi Alfredo,
>
> I don't know what he was smoking, but it must have been good...ha! The
> RV8 has improvements over the 4 in 3 areas, cockpit room, pre-punched
> holes, thicker tail skins...period! As far as aerobatics,aesthetics,
> athletics..etc go, the RV4 is superior, having personally extensively
> flown aerobatics in both airplanes. The RV4 is smaller, lighter and
> slightly more nimble in pitch. The wings internally are completely
> different, the RV8 being along the lines of the "new RV's" with the one
> piece spar billet.
> The RV4/6 wing, back during RV6 certification in 1985 was subjected to
> sandbag piling for intergrity for the FAA. At 9G's (150%) design load,
> everybody left the room happy with no deformation or rivets popped. After
> they were gone, they(Van's) continued to pile sandbags (for grins) to see
> where or if it would actually fail. Where it finally broke was a well kept
> secret, but one of the witnesses told me it was in excess of 11 G's and
> even then it didn't break. The RV8 was only tested to failure at 9G's. For
> my money, a layered spar is better for overall strength. Simply use .020
> skins on the tail surfaces, all else stock, you'll love the RV4.Yes it is
> more work to build, but worth it.
>
> I don't know about you, but after 1400 hours, I still haven't gotten tired
> of my 150HP RV4, and I get to fly F16's every now and again. Good Luck!
>
> Rob Ray
>
> Alfredo Santoro <alfredo.santoro@poste.it> wrote:
> --> RV4-List message posted by: "Alfredo Santoro"
>
> Hello, everybody.
> I was thinking that some of you would sure be able to clarify me something
> that I was told by an RV 6 builder that I met.
> I asked him suggestions about building an RV 4, which is what I am aiming
> to do as soon as possible. (Well, I am still at the decision phase about
> what kit to purchase).
> He was busy, during a home-builder meeting which I was attending as a
> tourist or little more, so he explained me the thing rather quickly and I
> am not sure I understood it well.
> Basically, when he heard me talking about an RV 4 (which I love and had
> enjoyed a chance to fly), he suggested me to prefer an RV 8, instead,
> because of the different kind of rivets Van's adopted on it.
> He said that the RV 8 type of riveting is completely different and makes
> the structure stronger, expecially in aerobatics.
> Is anybody of you able to explain me the differences among the two, and
> confirm me this thesis?
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Alfredo Santoro
> Rome, Italy.
>
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 06:04:13 PM PST US
From: Oldsfolks@aol.com
Subject: RV4-List: >Re: Rivets on RVs
--> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
I have built two RV-4's and have done just fun aerobatics in both. I used a
150 HP Lycoming with a wood prop on both. The first RV-4 had a 4" prop
extension and the second has a 2 1/4" prop extension. The new finish kit
has the
cowl for C/S or fixed prop using a 2 1/4" extension. I had up to 5 1/5 G's
positive and 3 1/2 negative on the first plane and flew 700 hours on it.
I like the 150 HP RV-4 because I use a mixture of auto 87 octane and 100 LL
avgas. This makes my flying more affordable.
If you do smooth aerobatics,and pay attention to the manuvering speed you
will be OK, I think.
You'll love the RV-4.
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: >Re: Rivets on RVs |
--> RV4-List message posted by: LessDragProd@aol.com
Hi All,
Pardon this blatant plug.
MT Propeller. The ignored answer.
Hub's up to 7" long. No aerobatic restrictions. Certified propeller
manufacturer.
Blades custom designed to the engine, airframe and expected performance.
Custom designed CS propeller and spinner assembly at prices near an "off the
shelf" CS propeller.
2 blade, 3 blade and sometimes even 4 blade CS propellers for RV's and
Rockets.
Hydraulic and Electric Constant Speed propellers available.
Regards,
Jim Ayers
Less Drag Products, Inc. - An MT Propeller Distributor in Southern California
RV-3 N47RV LOM M332A engine MTV-7-C/175-112 3 blade electric CS propeller
HR2 sn 269 Lyc. IO-540 engine MTV-9-B-C/C190-50A 3 blade hyd. CS propeller
In a message dated 10/16/2004 6:04:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Oldsfolks@aol.com writes:
--> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
I have built two RV-4's and have done just fun aerobatics in both. I used a
150 HP Lycoming with a wood prop on both. The first RV-4 had a 4" prop
extension and the second has a 2 1/4" prop extension. The new finish kit
has the
cowl for C/S or fixed prop using a 2 1/4" extension. I had up to 5 1/5 G's
positive and 3 1/2 negative on the first plane and flew 700 hours on it.
I like the 150 HP RV-4 because I use a mixture of auto 87 octane and 100 LL
avgas. This makes my flying more affordable.
If you do smooth aerobatics,and pay attention to the manuvering speed you
will be OK, I think.
You'll love the RV-4.
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
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