---------------------------------------------------------- RV4-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/19/04: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:33 AM - Fw: Please pass to RV List for me (Scott Vanartsdalen) 2. 07:47 AM - Re: RV4-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 10/18/04 (rob ray) 3. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: RV4-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/16/04 (rob ray) 4. 11:35 AM - Re: RV4 Extension (alfredo.santoro@poste.it) 5. 01:49 PM - Please pass to RV List for me (Scott VanArtsdalen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:41 AM PST US From: Scott Vanartsdalen Subject: RV4-List: Fwd: Please pass to RV List for me rv4@yahoogroups.com, rv4-list@matronics.com, info@xcomavionics.com --> RV4-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen I received this email just this morning from Mr. Michael Coates. Per his request I am passing this along. Pay special attention to the problems he has with email and spam filters. This is exactly what I was talking about in my posting last week. When communication absolutely has to get through, pick up the phone. Anyway, preach mode off, here's Michael's message: XCOM Avionics wrote:Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:02:17 +1000 From: XCOM Avionics Subject: Please pass to RV List for me Hello Scott I am hoping you can forward this to the RV list for me, i have tried to send info but it bounces as i am not a member. Recently there have been a few messages passed to me saying i am not promptly responding to emails... many times i just dont get them.... Unfortunately with a business site and the same email addresses for the past 8 years we get more than 1600 spam messages each and every day and about 200 real messages. We have employed special spam filtering on the mail servers which drops it down to about 500 on our computer but it occasionally knocks off a few valid emails from customers, until someone finds a way to get around this it is an unfortunate fact of life we have to live with.... I think we will have to go back to fax for reliability.... The XCOM has been shipping recently with more than 200 units being supplied to customers, we do have about 50 orders placed some time ago by customers, some almost two years old and we cant make contact with them..... hopefully this mail on the list will help them contact us again. The email details are wrong or have changed, credit card info expired and phones disconnected as people have moved house.... Seems these are the ones being the most vocal but until they supply details we cant contact them. If they are on this list and have an order please email me on a 'new' email address info@xcomavionics.com I have been away for the past 2 weeks doing a trip we did last year called "Flight for Sight" last year we raised $60,000 for the Royal Blind Foundation, this year $100,000 which is a great effort. http://www.mcp.com.au/sinus/flight-for-sight/rbf-trip.html For details on last years trip. The good old email let us down again while we were away, the auto responder didnt work and our mail was meant to be forwarded to an address we could access while travelling but it only sent a few through each day and then stopped... We are here and ready to communicate, but unless you supply your current contact details we cant really help you. PS our phone and fax always work !! Thanks for passing this mail on. Michael -- With regards, The XCOM Avionics TeamEmail: info@xcomavionics.comXCOM Web Site: http://www.xcom760.com http://www.xcomavionics.com"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return." From the MCP website: Factory 4, No.24 Leda Drive, Leda Business Park Burleigh Heads, Gold Coast - Queensland, Australia 4220 Phone within Australia 07 5568 7770 Fax 07 5568 7772 Phone outside Australia +61 7 5568 7770 Fax +61 7 5568 7772 Email mcoates@mcp.com.au Web http://www.mcp.com.au Phone Contact 24 hours 0418 168 665 Outside Aust +61 418 168 665 -- Scott VanArtsdalen RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! When a man does all he can though it succeeds not well, blame not him that did it." -- George Washington ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:13 AM PST US From: rob ray Subject: RV4-List: Re: RV4-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 10/18/04 --> RV4-List message posted by: rob ray Alfredo, Amen to everything Bob said. I too, fly a 150 HP with a Catto composite prop and 4" extension. You never need more than 3 G's to anything you can think of, aerobatics wise positive G. With an inverted system you only gain negative manuevering which isn't that much fun anyway. The RV4 is not a Pitts or an Extra, but a Pitts can't cruise at 160 knots on 8.5 gph and an Extra is "Mui Mallo" to your wallet. I had it to do all over I would install a Constant Speed prop, a lightweight one, either MT or Whirlwind. You can't beat the RV4, Mui Bueno! Rob Ray RV4-List Digest Server wrote: * ================================================== Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================== Today's complete RV4-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the RV4-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv4-list/Digest.RV4-List.2004-10-18.html Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv4-list/Digest.RV4-List.2004-10-18.txt ================================================ EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================ RV4-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/18/04: 1 Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:37 AM - Re: RV4-List Prop Shaft Extension (Alfredo Santoro) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:37:30 AM PST US From: "Alfredo Santoro" Subject: RV4-List: Re: RV4-List Prop Shaft Extension --> RV4-List message posted by: "Alfredo Santoro" Thanks, Bob. You guys are wonderful, and my ideas are much clearer now, due to your answers and experiences. As a matter of fact I will make sure my plane will have a 2 1/4" prop extension. Sincerely Alfredo. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV4-List: >Re: Rivets on RVs > --> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com > > I have built two RV-4's and have done just fun aerobatics in both. I used a > 150 HP Lycoming with a wood prop on both. The first RV-4 had a 4" prop > extension and the second has a 2 1/4" prop extension. The new finish kit has the > cowl for C/S or fixed prop using a 2 1/4" extension. I had up to 5 1/5 G's > positive and 3 1/2 negative on the first plane and flew 700 hours on it. > I like the 150 HP RV-4 because I use a mixture of auto 87 octane and 100 LL > avgas. This makes my flying more affordable. > If you do smooth aerobatics,and pay attention to the manuvering speed you > will be OK, I think. > You'll love the RV-4. > > > Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X > A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor > Charleston,Arkansas > Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers > > --------------------------------- vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:11 AM PST US From: rob ray Subject: Re: RV4-List: RE: RV4-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/16/04 --> RV4-List message posted by: rob ray Hi Steve, I was curious about your question too. I emailed a LM engineer buddy of mine who flew F16's with me. He also has a FP prop Pitts. "High angular velocity" refers to abrupt changes in flight path with regard to relative flighpath, ie, acclerated, un-natural flight. (Or, some girls I have dated in the past!) An aileron Roll doesn't fit the defintion, where a snaproll, lumcevak, Tucker-upper etc...would. Since wood props absorb, rather than magnify harmonics and weigh less, the spinning mass is less stress on the crankshaft. Obviously, pulling 9G's with a long moment arm out front would add more stress.I have never seen more than 5G's, in my RV4 and 3 is the norm. I have sustained 9G's many times in my "work" airplane and it is painful, pure and simple. Unless you need to avoid certain death, anything over 4 is unnecessary in an RV, and outside the factory recommended limits. This G restriction argument stemmed from the Hartzell aerobatic restriction on their 4" propshaft extension (Twin Comanche, Harmon Rocket). The difference is weight. The Hartzell Prop with extension weighs 57 lbs. My Catto with extension and bolts and spinner weighs 18lbs. I have seen three broken Lycoming crankshafts in my life, all three on Pitts with metal props doing tumbling maneuvers. After 1400 hours on mine, I am confident that the 4" extension isn't a problem for normal acro... Rob Ray Steve Mullins wrote: --> RV4-List message posted by: "Steve Mullins" Very interesting discussion RE: crank loads and acro. I have a -4 with a FP wood prop. Do rolls (pulling no more than 2.5+ G's) fall in the "high angular velocity changes" category? Steven D. Mullins Associate Professor of Economics The Breech School of Business Administration Drury University 417.889.5609 (Home) 417.873.7299 (Office) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV4-List Digest Server Subject: RV4-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 10/16/04 * ================================================== Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================== Today's complete RV4-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the RV4-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv4-list/Digest.RV4-List.2004-10-16.html Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv4-list/Digest.RV4-List.2004-10-16.txt ================================================ EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================ RV4-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/16/04: 2 Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:42 PM - Re: Rivets on RVs (Alfredo Santoro) 2. 06:04 PM - >Re: Rivets on RVs (Oldsfolks@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:16 PM PST US From: "Alfredo Santoro" Subject: Re: RV4-List: Rivets on RVs --> RV4-List message posted by: "Alfredo Santoro" --> Thank you Rob, Your answer has been really useful, and it's good news also! Because an RV 4 kit is less expensive, final result is better looking (in our opinion) and I do not need cabin room, being myself quite small. I understand from what you wrote that the RV 8 is not stronger than the RV 4, and that is what I needed to know, since I will like practicing a little of careful aerobatics with my plane, the day I will have one... The only issue that still makes me think about RV4 and RV8 is a message a pilot posted in Matt's Aerobatics List a few months ago. I will cite it here: >GUYS: Those of you who have RV's, and want to do acro. >From a long-time acro instructor. > ALL of the RV's are designed with prop shaft extensions, and please >be aware that this single factor is tremendously limiting in pulling >any kind of "G" with these planes, or in doing any kind of >high-angular-velocity changes. > Remember that the prop is a tremendous gyroscope, and as such, when you >introduce high angular rate changes, the forces on that gyroscope are >tremendous, and when you add in the moment arm of that prop shaft >extension, you are placing unrealistic loads on the crankshaft. > If you continue with this action, the inevitable result will be, one >day, that your prop instantaneously departs from the plane. There will >be no warning, the crank will just break, and all that forward weight >will be lost. > Think about what that does to your CG, and then decide if you want to >continue doing any kind of serious acro in your RV's. > Van says that it is not an acro bird. He's right. It is a wonderful >plane, but it isn't designed for this kind of flight. >Lee Taylor" Then a guy answered: >Aerobatic-List message posted by: Ken Balch >Not true. While certainly the case with the earlier birds, the 'modern' >RVs (the -7 & -8, anyway) do not require the prop extensions. My RV-8 >(Lyc. IO-360-A1B6 & Hartzell c/s) doesn't have one. This was one of my >deciding issues when I built the plane: I didn't want a bird with a >prop extension. > >Regards, >Ken Balch >RV-8 N118KB >Pitts Model 12 N612KB (under construction) Now, I read that since 1993, RVs have been available with the short cowl option, which allows the use of a 2.25" extension rather than a 4" extension. RVs can also use either FP wood props or CS metal props, which have very different weights. So I guess that to have no worries at all about that torque I only need to make sure my RV 4 had the short cowl and short extension, and maybe a FP wood prop. Do you agree? Thank you. Alfredo. ----- Original Message ----- From: "rob ray" Subject: Re: RV4-List: Rivets on RVs > --> RV4-List message posted by: rob ray > > Hi Alfredo, > > I don't know what he was smoking, but it must have been good...ha! The > RV8 has improvements over the 4 in 3 areas, cockpit room, pre-punched > holes, thicker tail skins...period! As far as aerobatics,aesthetics, > athletics..etc go, the RV4 is superior, having personally extensively > flown aerobatics in both airplanes. The RV4 is smaller, lighter and > slightly more nimble in pitch. The wings internally are completely > different, the RV8 being along the lines of the "new RV's" with the one > piece spar billet. > The RV4/6 wing, back during RV6 certification in 1985 was subjected to > sandbag piling for intergrity for the FAA. At 9G's (150%) design load, > everybody left the room happy with no deformation or rivets popped. After > they were gone, they(Van's) continued to pile sandbags (for grins) to see > where or if it would actually fail. Where it finally broke was a well kept > secret, but one of the witnesses told me it was in excess of 11 G's and > even then it didn't break. The RV8 was only tested to failure at 9G's. For > my money, a layered spar is better for overall strength. Simply use .020 > skins on the tail surfaces, all else stock, you'll love the RV4.Yes it is > more work to build, but worth it. > > I don't know about you, but after 1400 hours, I still haven't gotten tired > of my 150HP RV4, and I get to fly F16's every now and again. Good Luck! > > Rob Ray > > Alfredo Santoro wrote: > --> RV4-List message posted by: "Alfredo Santoro" > > Hello, everybody. > I was thinking that some of you would sure be able to clarify me something > that I was told by an RV 6 builder that I met. > I asked him suggestions about building an RV 4, which is what I am aiming > to do as soon as possible. (Well, I am still at the decision phase about > what kit to purchase). > He was busy, during a home-builder meeting which I was attending as a > tourist or little more, so he explained me the thing rather quickly and I > am not sure I understood it well. > Basically, when he heard me talking about an RV 4 (which I love and had > enjoyed a chance to fly), he suggested me to prefer an RV 8, instead, > because of the different kind of rivets Van's adopted on it. > He said that the RV 8 type of riveting is completely different and makes > the structure stronger, expecially in aerobatics. > Is anybody of you able to explain me the differences among the two, and > confirm me this thesis? > > Thank you very much. > > Alfredo Santoro > Rome, Italy. > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:13 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV4-List: >Re: Rivets on RVs --> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com I have built two RV-4's and have done just fun aerobatics in both. I used a 150 HP Lycoming with a wood prop on both. The first RV-4 had a 4" prop extension and the second has a 2 1/4" prop extension. The new finish kit has the cowl for C/S or fixed prop using a 2 1/4" extension. I had up to 5 1/5 G's positive and 3 1/2 negative on the first plane and flew 700 hours on it. I like the 150 HP RV-4 because I use a mixture of auto 87 octane and 100 LL avgas. This makes my flying more affordable. If you do smooth aerobatics,and pay attention to the manuvering speed you will be OK, I think. You'll love the RV-4. Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor Charleston,Arkansas Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers --------------------------------- vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:09 AM PST US Subject: RV4-List: Re: RV4 Extension From: "alfredo.santoro@poste.it" --> RV4-List message posted by: "alfredo.santoro@poste.it" Thank you, Rob, for the information. By the way, you guys are making me real impatient to have one.. I can't wait! :-) > > ---------- Messaggio Originale ----------- > > Da : owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com > A : rv4-list@matronics.com > Cc : > Data : Tue, 19 Oct 2004 07:47:07 -0700 (PDT) > Oggetto : RV4-List: Re: RV4-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 10/18/04 > > > --> RV4-List message posted by: rob ray > > Alfredo, > Amen to everything Bob said. I too, fly a 150 HP with a Catto composite prop and 4" extension. You never need more than 3 G's to anything you can think of, aerobatics wise positive G. With an inverted system you only gain negative manuevering which isn't that much fun anyway. The RV4 is not a Pitts or an Extra, but a Pitts can't cruise at 160 knots on 8.5 gph and an Extra is "Mui Mallo" to your wallet. I had it to do all over I would install a Constant Speed prop, a lightweight one, either MT or Whirlwind. > > You can't beat the RV4, Mui Bueno! > > Rob Ray > > RV4-List Digest Server wrote: > * > > ===================================== ============= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ===================================== ============= > > Today's complete RV4-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the RV4-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv4- list/Digest.RV4-List.2004-10-18.html > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv4- list/Digest.RV4-List.2004-10-18.txt > > > ===================================== =========== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > ===================================== =========== > > > RV4-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Mon 10/18/04: 1 > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 01:37 AM - Re: RV4-List Prop Shaft Extension (Alfredo Santoro) > > > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 01:37:30 AM PST US > From: "Alfredo Santoro" > Subject: RV4-List: Re: RV4-List Prop Shaft Extension > > --> RV4-List message posted by: "Alfredo Santoro" > > Thanks, Bob. > You guys are wonderful, and my ideas are much clearer now, due to your > answers and experiences. > As a matter of fact I will make sure my plane will have a 2 1/4" prop > extension. > > Sincerely > > Alfredo. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > Subject: RV4-List: >Re: Rivets on RVs > > > > --> RV4-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com > > > > I have built two RV-4's and have done just fun aerobatics in both. I used > a > > 150 HP Lycoming with a wood prop on both. The first RV-4 had a 4" prop > > extension and the second has a 2 1/4" prop extension. The new finish kit > has the > > cowl for C/S or fixed prop using a 2 1/4" extension. I had up to 5 1/5 > G's > > positive and 3 1/2 negative on the first plane and flew 700 hours on it. > > I like the 150 HP RV-4 because I use a mixture of auto 87 octane and 100 > LL > > avgas. This makes my flying more affordable. > > If you do smooth aerobatics,and pay attention to the manuvering speed you > > will be OK, I think. > > You'll love the RV-4. > > > > > > Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X > > A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor > > Charleston,Arkansas > > Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > _- ===================================== =================================== Contributions or any other Forums. > _- ===================================== =================================== http://www.matronics.com/chat > _- ===================================== =================================== http://www.matronics.com/subscription http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV4-List.htm http://www.matronics.com/search http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv4-list http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv4-list http://www.matronics.com/archives http://www.matronics.com/photoshare list http://www.matronics.com/emaillists http://www.matronics.com/contribution > _- ===================================== =================================== > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:02 PM PST US From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" Subject: RV4-List: Please pass to RV List for me --> RV4-List message posted by: "Scott VanArtsdalen" I apologize if this is a double posting. I sent this earlier but it didn't appear to go through. Here is an email I received from Michael Coates. He would like to respond to current and potential customers on the various RV email lists. -----Original Message----- From: XCOM Avionics [mailto:info@xcomavionics.com] Subject: Please pass to RV List for me Hello Scott I am hoping you can forward this to the RV list for me, i have tried to send info but it bounces as i am not a member. Recently there have been a few messages passed to me saying i am not promptly responding to emails... many times i just dont get them.... Unfortunately with a business site and the same email addresses for the past 8 years we get more than 1600 spam messages each and every day and about 200 real messages. We have employed special spam filtering on the mail servers which drops it down to about 500 on our computer but it occasionally knocks off a few valid emails from customers, until someone finds a way to get around this it is an unfortunate fact of life we have to live with.... I think we will have to go back to fax for reliability.... The XCOM has been shipping recently with more than 200 units being supplied to customers, we do have about 50 orders placed some time ago by customers, some almost two years old and we cant make contact with them..... hopefully this mail on the list will help them contact us again. The email details are wrong or have changed, credit card info expired and phones disconnected as people have moved house.... Seems these are the ones being the most vocal but until they supply details we cant contact them. If they are on this list and have an order please email me on a 'new' email address info@xcomavionics.com I have been away for the past 2 weeks doing a trip we did last year called "Flight for Sight" last year we raised $60,000 for the Royal Blind Foundation, this year $100,000 which is a great effort. http://www.mcp.com.au/sinus/flight-for-sight/rbf-trip.html For details on last years trip. The good old email let us down again while we were away, the auto responder didnt work and our mail was meant to be forwarded to an address we could access while travelling but it only sent a few through each day and then stopped... We are here and ready to communicate, but unless you supply your current contact details we cant really help you. PS our phone and fax always work !! Thanks for passing this mail on. Michael -- With regards, The XCOM Avionics Team Email: info@xcomavionics.com XCOM Web Site: http://www.xcom760.com http://www.xcomavionics.com "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return."