Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:31 AM - Re: VS offset (Michael)
2. 12:05 PM - Re: VS offset (S Sampson)
3. 12:32 PM - Re: VS offset (DFCPAC@aol.com)
4. 05:00 PM - Re: VS offset (Rob Ray)
5. 05:11 PM - Re: VS offset (Rob Ray)
6. 06:18 PM - Rudder trim inside the cockpit (Gene Smith)
7. 06:42 PM - Rudder trim inside the cockpit (Gene Smith)
Message 1
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Steve:
When I was first building (George Bush The First was president) I had been
working with airplanes for years (since Nixon was president; yikes!). Since
I was now building my own, I looked at every airplane I could, factory or
custom built, which you should also do. I also have a 1946 J-3 Cub in the
hangar and could look at it. Almost ALL of them, from the fastest to the
slowest, had an offset vertical fin. I also noticed some rather humongous
rudder trim tabs on the two RV models that were out: the -3 and the -4, then
later on the -6. And some of them were not pretty. (Do NOT just stick a
piece of flat stock on the rudder; THAT is ugly.) I decided to offset my
vertical (I am the factory, after all) and, although I can't remember how
much, I believe it was 1/4 inch. Then I went flying. I found I still had to
hold a little rudder in level flight and ended up putting on a trim tab
anyway, but smaller than most I had seen. I found myself wishing I had
offset it more. But how do you know until you put air under the wings? Trim
flight involves so many factors.
The tail fairing was discarded almost as it came out of the box: from the
box to the trash. I built my own that has a glove-like fit and I like it.
Trim tab: an aluminum wedge plate that sits at the trailing edge. Placement
is a controversial issue: it is my opinion that the lower (or higher, what
ever you don't mind people seeing) may work better. I place mine where I saw
most others placed: about in line with the middle hinge of the rudder. That
may not be the best place as the rudder may not have as much authority there
due to the disturbed air from the fuselage, but I am not sure because I
didn't play with the up and down as much as I should have. The Bugs know:
there are rarely any bugs on the tail fairing. Most bugs start about 8
inches above the fairing, meaning that the air is disturbed from the
canopy/fuselage and may not be reaching the trim tab as well as it could.
Tufting would also help determine where to put it but to see back there
necessitates formation flying with you and someone else that ALSO knows
formation flight.
SO: when you are duct taping your wooden trim tab test model on the rudder
for flight trials, play with the size (height and width) as well as the
angle that you need. But also, once you found the size that works best for
feet on the floor flying AT CRUISE, move it up and down the rudder to see
where it is most effective. You do NOT want to fly everywhere with your foot
pressed against the rudder for the next 3000 hours. Also remember this has
to be done AFTER the main gear leg fairings are in place because they can
influence how straight the airplane flies. Suzie Q is one of the straightest
airplanes I have flown. There is NO elevator sticking up or down from the
horizontal when I am in cruise and solo, minimal baggage. Even with a
passenger only about 1/8 inch sticks up. She cruises, once trimmed, feet on
the floor.
I LOVE my airplane. So will you.
Michael
N232 Suzie Q
1038 hours, more to be put on this morning......
Message 2
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Brian, calling the factory from here doesn't work too well, so I will be
very interested to hear if you manage to engage them in a discussion,
and more importantly what they have to say. WRT Smokey, I have seen no
input, but I sense he catches up in blocks. Perhaps he is away a lot
since it is the sort of thing he normally joins in on.
No, my tent is not folded! I was just trying to get some
reaction...which appears to have worked. It is not a thing which I need
to act on for a while, since the next major operation is the dreaded
canopy. Just trying to get my ducks lined up though.
Glad you are also interested. Its a big help.
Cheers, Steve.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vickers
To: rv4-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: RV4-List: VS offset
Steve,
Don't fold up your tent so fast. I think from your responses there is
reasonably strong evidence to support installing with an offset. Jerry
I. and Dayton M. both are recent RV4 flyers that have noted the need to
hold right rudder in level cruise. Has Smokey replied on this? I am
going to call the factory Monday morning and see what they say. I don't
want a big trim tab on the rudder if a slight offset will put level
cruise flight at nearly neutral. I'll report back on the factory
response.
Brian Vickers, RV4 finishing
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of S Sampson
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 10:08 AM
To: rv4-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV4-List: VS offset
Thanks everyone for the VS offset info. On balance I think I have been
talked out of the idea. I had thought that since the later RV are built
with the VS offset, it would make lots of sense, but though there was
some, there was not a lot of support. Cheers, Steve.
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Message 3
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steve,
i did not build my rv-4, but i did check it and it has a very little offset.
and i still have one of those little angle blocks on my rudder. before i
painted the plane i taped it on and got what i wanted. no falling asleep right
foot.
good meeting you last week.still fooling around with that canopy? i'll try
to fly over next Saturday and maybe we can do some flying.
regards
danny
rv-4
N2275S
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 4
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Steve, Danny,
I helped a friend assemble an RV4 with 1 degree right offset in the vertical
stab. I thought at the time it was a great idea, and it was. The aircraft flew
hands off and needed no rudder trim up to 170mph. Above 170mph up to VNE it would
displace the ball to the middle of the "centered" reference line. His cruise
speed was 155 knots (170 mph) so it really worked great.
I highly recommend the mod, it works!
Rob Ray
DFCPAC@aol.com wrote: steve,
i did not build my rv-4, but i did check it and it has a very little offset.
and i still have one of those little angle blocks on my rudder. before i painted
the plane i taped it on and got what i wanted. no falling asleep right foot.
good meeting you last week.still fooling around with that canopy? i'll try to
fly over next Saturday and maybe we can do some flying.
regards
danny
rv-4
N2275S
---------------------------------
See what's free at AOL.com.
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 5
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Guys,
OOPS, I meant the other right...1 degree LEFT offset producing right rudder! I
get Lysdexic sometimes!
Smokey
Rob Ray <smokyray@yahoo.com> wrote: Steve, Danny,
I helped a friend assemble an RV4 with 1 degree right offset in the vertical
stab. I thought at the time it was a great idea, and it was. The aircraft flew
hands off and needed no rudder trim up to 170mph. Above 170mph up to VNE it would
displace the ball to the middle of the "centered" reference line. His cruise
speed was 155 knots (170 mph) so it really worked great.
I highly recommend the mod, it works!
Rob Ray
DFCPAC@aol.com wrote: steve,
i did not build my rv-4, but i did check it and it has a very little offset.
and i still have one of those little angle blocks on
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Rudder trim inside the cockpit |
OK, for you out there that have rear seat rudder pedals, it is an easy
task to install a rudder trim...Get a turn buckle and a medium strength
spring, and (you determine the size of each to fit your situation) hook
the turn buckle to the right rear pedal, and the spring where the rear
pedal PUSH ROD goes through the bulkhead.
To operate, push the right rudder pedal with your size 12 until you get
the "ball" in the center, or where ever you want it, then start cranking
the turn buckle to tighten the spring (this PULLS the rear pedal
forward, and the right rudder forward) until you can remove your size 12
from the front rudder pedal, and maybe tweak it if necessary.
I know your thought now is, "suppose I forget it all in the traffic
pattern," no problem, the spring might cause a little more pressure to
be applied to the right rudder, but it works fine...If you think of it
in time, you can reach down and disconnect the spring without even
looking.
So you don't have rear rudder pedals?..No problem, get a aluminum rod,
attach one end to the right rudder pedal right flange, drill a hole in
your right side bulk head and install the rod through it, allowing
enough length to work back and forth...For a long flight, get the "ball"
where you want it, and IN THE FRONT OF THE BULK HEAD, attach a small
pair of locking pliers to hold the rudder in place...LAUGH IF YOU WANT,
but I used this for years to go to OSH and LCL before installing the
rear seat rudder pedals (and never had right leg limp after
arriving)...If you forget about it in the traffic pattern, KICK THE "DOG
POO" out of the rudders and the pliers will fall off...(provided you
didn't crank them too tight!)................Hope this helps someone out
there, good luck and
.....................CHEERS!!!!...............................Gene Smith.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Rudder trim inside the cockpit |
OK, for you out there that have rear seat rudder pedals, it is an easy
task to install a rudder trim...Get a turn buckle and a medium strength
spring, and (you determine the size of each to fit your situation) hook
the turn buckle to the right rear pedal, and the spring where the rear
pedal PUSH ROD goes through the bulkhead.
To operate, push the right rudder pedal with your size 12 until you get
the "ball" in the center, or where ever you want it, then start cranking
the turn buckle to tighten the spring (this PULLS the rear pedal
forward, and the right rudder forward) until you can remove your size 12
from the front rudder pedal, and maybe tweak it if necessary.
I know your thought now is, "suppose I forget it all in the traffic
pattern," no problem, the spring might cause a little more pressure to
be applied to the right rudder, but it works fine...If you think of it
in time, you can reach down and disconnect the spring without even
looking.
So you don't have rear rudder pedals?..No problem, get a aluminum rod,
attach one end to the right rudder pedal right flange, drill a hole in
your right side bulk head and install the rod through it, allowing
enough length to work back and forth...For a long flight, get the "ball"
where you want it, and IN THE FRONT OF THE BULK HEAD, attach a small
pair of locking pliers to hold the rudder in place...LAUGH IF YOU WANT,
but I used this for years to go to OSH and LCL before installing the
rear seat rudder pedals (and never had right leg limp after
arriving)...If you forget about it in the traffic pattern, KICK THE "DOG
POO" out of the rudders and the pliers will fall off...(provided you
didn't crank them too tight!)................Hope this helps someone out
there, good luck and
.....................CHEERS!!!!...............................Gene
Smith.
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