---------------------------------------------------------- RV4-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/15/07: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:31 AM - Re: VS offset (Michael) 2. 12:05 PM - Re: VS offset (S Sampson) 3. 12:32 PM - Re: VS offset (DFCPAC@aol.com) 4. 05:00 PM - Re: VS offset (Rob Ray) 5. 05:11 PM - Re: VS offset (Rob Ray) 6. 06:18 PM - Rudder trim inside the cockpit (Gene Smith) 7. 06:42 PM - Rudder trim inside the cockpit (Gene Smith) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:57 AM PST US From: "Michael" Subject: RV4-List: Re: VS offset Steve: When I was first building (George Bush The First was president) I had been working with airplanes for years (since Nixon was president; yikes!). Since I was now building my own, I looked at every airplane I could, factory or custom built, which you should also do. I also have a 1946 J-3 Cub in the hangar and could look at it. Almost ALL of them, from the fastest to the slowest, had an offset vertical fin. I also noticed some rather humongous rudder trim tabs on the two RV models that were out: the -3 and the -4, then later on the -6. And some of them were not pretty. (Do NOT just stick a piece of flat stock on the rudder; THAT is ugly.) I decided to offset my vertical (I am the factory, after all) and, although I can't remember how much, I believe it was 1/4 inch. Then I went flying. I found I still had to hold a little rudder in level flight and ended up putting on a trim tab anyway, but smaller than most I had seen. I found myself wishing I had offset it more. But how do you know until you put air under the wings? Trim flight involves so many factors. The tail fairing was discarded almost as it came out of the box: from the box to the trash. I built my own that has a glove-like fit and I like it. Trim tab: an aluminum wedge plate that sits at the trailing edge. Placement is a controversial issue: it is my opinion that the lower (or higher, what ever you don't mind people seeing) may work better. I place mine where I saw most others placed: about in line with the middle hinge of the rudder. That may not be the best place as the rudder may not have as much authority there due to the disturbed air from the fuselage, but I am not sure because I didn't play with the up and down as much as I should have. The Bugs know: there are rarely any bugs on the tail fairing. Most bugs start about 8 inches above the fairing, meaning that the air is disturbed from the canopy/fuselage and may not be reaching the trim tab as well as it could. Tufting would also help determine where to put it but to see back there necessitates formation flying with you and someone else that ALSO knows formation flight. SO: when you are duct taping your wooden trim tab test model on the rudder for flight trials, play with the size (height and width) as well as the angle that you need. But also, once you found the size that works best for feet on the floor flying AT CRUISE, move it up and down the rudder to see where it is most effective. You do NOT want to fly everywhere with your foot pressed against the rudder for the next 3000 hours. Also remember this has to be done AFTER the main gear leg fairings are in place because they can influence how straight the airplane flies. Suzie Q is one of the straightest airplanes I have flown. There is NO elevator sticking up or down from the horizontal when I am in cruise and solo, minimal baggage. Even with a passenger only about 1/8 inch sticks up. She cruises, once trimmed, feet on the floor. I LOVE my airplane. So will you. Michael N232 Suzie Q 1038 hours, more to be put on this morning...... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:31 PM PST US From: "S Sampson" Subject: Re: RV4-List: VS offset Brian, calling the factory from here doesn't work too well, so I will be very interested to hear if you manage to engage them in a discussion, and more importantly what they have to say. WRT Smokey, I have seen no input, but I sense he catches up in blocks. Perhaps he is away a lot since it is the sort of thing he normally joins in on. No, my tent is not folded! I was just trying to get some reaction...which appears to have worked. It is not a thing which I need to act on for a while, since the next major operation is the dreaded canopy. Just trying to get my ducks lined up though. Glad you are also interested. Its a big help. Cheers, Steve. ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Vickers To: rv4-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 7:30 PM Subject: RE: RV4-List: VS offset Steve, Don't fold up your tent so fast. I think from your responses there is reasonably strong evidence to support installing with an offset. Jerry I. and Dayton M. both are recent RV4 flyers that have noted the need to hold right rudder in level cruise. Has Smokey replied on this? I am going to call the factory Monday morning and see what they say. I don't want a big trim tab on the rudder if a slight offset will put level cruise flight at nearly neutral. I'll report back on the factory response. Brian Vickers, RV4 finishing ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv4-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of S Sampson Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 10:08 AM To: rv4-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV4-List: VS offset Thanks everyone for the VS offset info. On balance I think I have been talked out of the idea. I had thought that since the later RV are built with the VS offset, it would make lots of sense, but though there was some, there was not a lot of support. Cheers, Steve. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System on behalf of the London Business School community. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:11 PM PST US From: DFCPAC@aol.com Subject: Re: RV4-List: VS offset steve, i did not build my rv-4, but i did check it and it has a very little offset. and i still have one of those little angle blocks on my rudder. before i painted the plane i taped it on and got what i wanted. no falling asleep right foot. good meeting you last week.still fooling around with that canopy? i'll try to fly over next Saturday and maybe we can do some flying. regards danny rv-4 N2275S ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:06 PM PST US From: Rob Ray Subject: Re: RV4-List: VS offset Steve, Danny, I helped a friend assemble an RV4 with 1 degree right offset in the vertical stab. I thought at the time it was a great idea, and it was. The aircraft flew hands off and needed no rudder trim up to 170mph. Above 170mph up to VNE it would displace the ball to the middle of the "centered" reference line. His cruise speed was 155 knots (170 mph) so it really worked great. I highly recommend the mod, it works! Rob Ray DFCPAC@aol.com wrote: steve, i did not build my rv-4, but i did check it and it has a very little offset. and i still have one of those little angle blocks on my rudder. before i painted the plane i taped it on and got what i wanted. no falling asleep right foot. good meeting you last week.still fooling around with that canopy? i'll try to fly over next Saturday and maybe we can do some flying. regards danny rv-4 N2275S --------------------------------- See what's free at AOL.com. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:50 PM PST US From: Rob Ray Subject: Re: RV4-List: VS offset Guys, OOPS, I meant the other right...1 degree LEFT offset producing right rudder! I get Lysdexic sometimes! Smokey Rob Ray wrote: Steve, Danny, I helped a friend assemble an RV4 with 1 degree right offset in the vertical stab. I thought at the time it was a great idea, and it was. The aircraft flew hands off and needed no rudder trim up to 170mph. Above 170mph up to VNE it would displace the ball to the middle of the "centered" reference line. His cruise speed was 155 knots (170 mph) so it really worked great. I highly recommend the mod, it works! Rob Ray DFCPAC@aol.com wrote: steve, i did not build my rv-4, but i did check it and it has a very little offset. and i still have one of those little angle blocks on --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:30 PM PST US From: "Gene Smith" Subject: RV4-List: Rudder trim inside the cockpit OK, for you out there that have rear seat rudder pedals, it is an easy task to install a rudder trim...Get a turn buckle and a medium strength spring, and (you determine the size of each to fit your situation) hook the turn buckle to the right rear pedal, and the spring where the rear pedal PUSH ROD goes through the bulkhead. To operate, push the right rudder pedal with your size 12 until you get the "ball" in the center, or where ever you want it, then start cranking the turn buckle to tighten the spring (this PULLS the rear pedal forward, and the right rudder forward) until you can remove your size 12 from the front rudder pedal, and maybe tweak it if necessary. I know your thought now is, "suppose I forget it all in the traffic pattern," no problem, the spring might cause a little more pressure to be applied to the right rudder, but it works fine...If you think of it in time, you can reach down and disconnect the spring without even looking. So you don't have rear rudder pedals?..No problem, get a aluminum rod, attach one end to the right rudder pedal right flange, drill a hole in your right side bulk head and install the rod through it, allowing enough length to work back and forth...For a long flight, get the "ball" where you want it, and IN THE FRONT OF THE BULK HEAD, attach a small pair of locking pliers to hold the rudder in place...LAUGH IF YOU WANT, but I used this for years to go to OSH and LCL before installing the rear seat rudder pedals (and never had right leg limp after arriving)...If you forget about it in the traffic pattern, KICK THE "DOG POO" out of the rudders and the pliers will fall off...(provided you didn't crank them too tight!)................Hope this helps someone out there, good luck and .....................CHEERS!!!!...............................Gene Smith. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:16 PM PST US From: "Gene Smith" Subject: RV4-List: Rudder trim inside the cockpit OK, for you out there that have rear seat rudder pedals, it is an easy task to install a rudder trim...Get a turn buckle and a medium strength spring, and (you determine the size of each to fit your situation) hook the turn buckle to the right rear pedal, and the spring where the rear pedal PUSH ROD goes through the bulkhead. To operate, push the right rudder pedal with your size 12 until you get the "ball" in the center, or where ever you want it, then start cranking the turn buckle to tighten the spring (this PULLS the rear pedal forward, and the right rudder forward) until you can remove your size 12 from the front rudder pedal, and maybe tweak it if necessary. I know your thought now is, "suppose I forget it all in the traffic pattern," no problem, the spring might cause a little more pressure to be applied to the right rudder, but it works fine...If you think of it in time, you can reach down and disconnect the spring without even looking. So you don't have rear rudder pedals?..No problem, get a aluminum rod, attach one end to the right rudder pedal right flange, drill a hole in your right side bulk head and install the rod through it, allowing enough length to work back and forth...For a long flight, get the "ball" where you want it, and IN THE FRONT OF THE BULK HEAD, attach a small pair of locking pliers to hold the rudder in place...LAUGH IF YOU WANT, but I used this for years to go to OSH and LCL before installing the rear seat rudder pedals (and never had right leg limp after arriving)...If you forget about it in the traffic pattern, KICK THE "DOG POO" out of the rudders and the pliers will fall off...(provided you didn't crank them too tight!)................Hope this helps someone out there, good luck and .....................CHEERS!!!!...............................Gene Smith. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv4-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV4-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv4-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv4-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.