Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:33 AM - Landing a loaded RV-4 (PGLong@aol.com)
2. 01:33 PM - Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 (Dwayne Cowles)
3. 04:06 PM - Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 (Gene Smith)
4. 05:03 PM - Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 (Charlie England)
5. 06:03 PM - Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 (H.Ivan Haecker)
6. 09:10 PM - Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 (Derrick Aubuchon)
7. 10:22 PM - Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 (jamesbaldwin@dc.rr.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Landing a loaded RV-4 |
Help.......I have an RV-4 and am experiencing landing problems with a rear
seater present. I installed a Landoll Harmonic Balancer and according to weight
and balance, should be able to tote a 225 pounder and stay within CG limits
with correct fuel loads. Even with a 120-150 pound person in the rear seat,
the elevator controls are so light it's almost like moving nothing. Not sure
if I'm over controlling, but it is so easy to get a hip hop dance down the
runway. Friend said to try and use a significant amount of down elevator trim
to
help. Haven't tried that yet but will next flight. What works for others?
Just stick with wheel landings? Lots of friends that would like a ride, but
hate to threaten them while I learn new techniques.
Pat Long
PGLong@aol.com
N120PL
RV4
Bay City, Michigan
3CM
Do Not Archive
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 |
Pat,
I have owned 2 rv's and my current one give me fits with aft cg. I think wheel
landings will help you a lot, land a little hot, fly it to the ground. If you
experience a lot of bounce (which I do) drop a wing just a little, let one wheel
hit then the other. Less likely to bounce.
My 2 cents.
Dwayne
PGLong@aol.com wrote: Help.......I have an RV-4 and am experiencing landing
problems with a rear seater present. I installed a Landoll Harmonic Balancer
and according to weight and balance, should be able to tote a 225 pounder and
stay within CG limits with correct fuel loads. Even with a 120-150 pound person
in the rear seat, the elevator controls are so light it's almost like moving
nothing. Not sure if I'm over controlling, but it is so easy to get a hip
hop dance down the runway. Friend said to try and use a significant amount
of down elevator trim to help. Haven't tried that yet but will next flight. What
works for others? Just stick with wheel landings? Lots of friends that would
like a ride, but hate to threaten them while I learn new techniques.
Pat Long
PGLong@aol.com
N120PL
RV4
Bay City, Michigan
3CM
Do Not Archive
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 |
Pat................I've had my RV-4 for 14yrs, and somewhere in mid yrs,
I had the same problem you mentioned.
Found out two things: 1. My pitot static system was in error...If I
indicated 60mph, I was actually doing 82.2mph...With a GIB (guy in back)
it still wanted to fly...I don't know why, but solo it never would do
the porpoise routine...Anyway I checked the pitot tube for bugs and
etc...(used air and blew from behind the inst. panel backwards, so they
would come out)...Then I put little stainless steel clamps on every
connection in the entire system.
2. Fly often in that GIB configuration, get your proficiency peaked...It
worked for me...We don't fly enough............CHEERS!!!!
Pat,
I have owned 2 rv's and my current one give me fits with aft cg. I
think wheel landings will help you a lot, land a little hot, fly it to
the ground. If you experience a lot of bounce (which I do) drop a wing
just a little, let one wheel hit then the other. Less likely to bounce.
My 2 cents.
Dwayne
PGLong@aol.com wrote:
Help.......I have an RV-4 and am experiencing landing problems with
a rear seater present. I installed a Landoll Harmonic Balancer and
according to weight and balance, should be able to tote a 225 pounder
and stay within CG limits with correct fuel loads. Even with a 120-150
pound person in the rear seat, the elevator controls are so light it's
almost like moving nothing. Not sure if I'm over controlling, but it is
so easy to get a hip hop dance down the runway. Friend said to try and
use a significant amount of down elevator trim to help. Haven't tried
that yet but will next flight. What works for others? Just stick with
wheel landings? Lots of friends that would like a ride, but hate to
threaten them while I learn new techniques.
Pat Long
PGLong@aol.com
N120PL
RV4
Bay City, Michigan
3CM
Do Not Archive
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 |
PGLong@aol.com wrote:
> Help.......I have an RV-4 and am experiencing landing problems with a
> rear seater present. I installed a Landoll Harmonic Balancer and
> according to weight and balance, should be able to tote a 225 pounder
> and stay within CG limits with correct fuel loads. Even with a 120-150
> pound person in the rear seat, the elevator controls are so light it's
> almost like moving nothing. Not sure if I'm over controlling, but it is
> so easy to get a hip hop dance down the runway. Friend said to try and
> use a significant amount of down elevator trim to help. Haven't tried
> that yet but will next flight. What works for others? Just stick with
> wheel landings? Lots of friends that would like a ride, but hate to
> threaten them while I learn new techniques.
>
> Pat Long
> PGLong@aol.com
> N120PL
> RV4
> Bay City, Michigan
> 3CM
>
> Do Not Archive
>
Hi Pat,
I've owned 2 -4's, both with 160hp/wood prop, very light empty weight, &
the 1st had completely different characteristics from the one I'm flying
now. FWIW, 225 in the back seat is pushing the envelope in a -4. Yes,
I've done it (did it this afternoon for my biennial flight review) but
it really does change the airplane with that much weight in the back.
I'm too lazy to type a long epistle, but email me your phone # or you
can call me at 601-879-9596 & I'll be glad to talk about why I think the
plane does what it does with a lot of weight in back. (Think flaps.)
Charlie
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 |
Pat,
I have the Landoll steel ring with a wood prop and light-weight starter.
I'm ok with 225lbs. in the rear as long as the baggage compartment is
empty. The stick forces are quite light, but manageable if I have my
forearm pressed against my thigh to brace my arm. I always 3-point, (or
at least attempt to), and occasionally skip a little, but all in all
feel comfortable. Keep practicing, it will come. And be sure to keep
your speed low. Excess speed makes it much more difficult.
Ivan Haecker -4 1370 hrs. S. Cen. TX
----- Original Message -----
From: PGLong@aol.com
To: RV-4@yahoogroups.com ; rv4-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 1:25 PM
Subject: RV4-List: Landing a loaded RV-4
Help.......I have an RV-4 and am experiencing landing problems with a
rear seater present. I installed a Landoll Harmonic Balancer and
according to weight and balance, should be able to tote a 225 pounder
and stay within CG limits with correct fuel loads. Even with a 120-150
pound person in the rear seat, the elevator controls are so light it's
almost like moving nothing. Not sure if I'm over controlling, but it is
so easy to get a hip hop dance down the runway. Friend said to try and
use a significant amount of down elevator trim to help. Haven't tried
that yet but will next flight. What works for others? Just stick with
wheel landings? Lots of friends that would like a ride, but hate to
threaten them while I learn new techniques.
Pat Long
PGLong@aol.com
N120PL
RV4
Bay City, Michigan
3CM
Do Not Archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
See what's free at AOL.com.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 |
Hi Pat,
I have about 500 hours on my 4, and this is what I have picked up
over the years,,
225lbs,, for MY airplane, is pretty much at the maximum I would have
in the rear seat.
My basic, "no-brainer" limit is 200lbs. Anything over that, then I
have to start some serious figuring. That 200lb self-imposed limit
assumes my usual load of stuff in the baggage area,, small tool kit,
canopy cover, quart of oil,, etc. Above 200lbs,,, everything in the
baggage area comes out.
Next is fuel.
As the fuel burns the aircraft cg slips aft, which exacerbates the
situation. So I will always start with full tanks and keep the legs
short with a heavy load in the back
As mentioned in your post, the forward trim trick is very important.
It gives the stick somewhat of a "preload," for lack of a better term
and negates most of the effects of hardware slop in the control
system. As an added bonus, after time,,, you will be able to get a
feel for the effectiveness of the trim, and adjust the airspeed over
the fence accordingly.
Just my two cents,,
Derrick Aubuchon
RV-4: N184DA
Jackson/Westover -Amador County (O70)
daubuchon@volcano.net
On Jul 5, 2007, at 11:25 AM, PGLong@aol.com wrote:
> Help.......I have an RV-4 and am experiencing landing problems with
> a rear seater present. I installed a Landoll Harmonic Balancer and
> according to weight and balance, should be able to tote a 225
> pounder and stay within CG limits with correct fuel loads. Even
> with a 120-150 pound person in the rear seat, the elevator controls
> are so light it's almost like moving nothing. Not sure if I'm over
> controlling, but it is so easy to get a hip hop dance down the
> runway. Friend said to try and use a significant amount of down
> elevator trim to help. Haven't tried that yet but will next flight.
> What works for others? Just stick with wheel landings? Lots of
> friends that would like a ride, but hate to threaten them while I
> learn new techniques.
>
> Pat Long
> PGLong@aol.com
> N120PL
> RV4
> Bay City, Michigan
> 3CM
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> See what's free at AOL.com.
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Landing a loaded RV-4 |
James Baldwin wrote:
> Pat -
> From a theoretical point of view I'll give you one answer: the real
simple version. I don't have my reference book in front of me but what
we're obviously talking about here is called static longitudinal
stability. It has everything to do with what you are experiencing and
is strictly a function of loading and the resultant location of the
center of gravity (CG). As the CG moves rearward it approaches the
location of the lift line of the main wing. The tail, for positive
static stability, acts downward and (I am ignoring some cases where
unusual moments or other aerodynamic effects alter this case) is the
variable controlled by the force at the control, or in the case of an
RV, the stick. Obviously as we all experience, the forces required by
the horizontal tail vary with airspeed, thus the need for trim. As the
CG gets close to the lift line location longitudinally, due to passenger
or baggage loading, the force required downward by the horizontal tail
is less and less. Since the downward force required is becoming smaller
as we load more into the rear seat and baggage area it becomes more
sensitive to small stick movements. At the neutral point the tail does
nothing but you'd better HANG ON!
> That's a real simplistic description of what is going on here. RV4s
with lightweight starters, wood props, no mags, etc already have a
rearward bias to the location of the CG and thankfully the arm for these
weight savings is pretty small. I know of one RV6 in particular that
has the opposite problem since he is using an IO360 angle valve with a
CS prop. He runs out of elevator in the flare! He can't do a full
stall landing.
What's the solution? Well, put a CS prop on it. Put an O360 up there.
Is the battery located way up front? Doing something like this is
pretty radical so the other way to look at it is to actually measure the
location of the CG and compare it to what Van dictates as practical
limits. I'm going to guess that you guys are exceeding the rearward
limit that Van specifies as acceptable for decent handling. I don't
have the weight and balance information in front of me but if I remember
I think the limits were something like 15 to 30% MAC (of the mean
aerodynamic chord). The way you find out where you are REALLY flying is
to get three scales and fully load the airplane in a level attitude just
the way the builder did when he finished building, only do it with a
load the way you actually fly it. You and your pax (or weights) sit in
there and then you do the math after getting the weights from the
scales. Now you know what the problem is if my suspicions are correct:
you are outside the weight and balance limits set by Van for your
aircraft. Van knew enough to put a margin in there for all of us but he
also flew enough stuff to know he had to demand handling characteristics
for the "least common denominator" pilot. If I were you, I'd find out
where my CG REALLY is and quit trying to defeat the physics of flight we
all must deal with. Out of the envelope operation can only lead to
disaster when coupled with other factors such as wind, weather, low
fuel, short runways, engine out, etc. Using a forward trim does not
change the effects of a poor loading scenario. In fact it does not
change the slope of the plot of the longitudinal stability (dcm/cg) line
either, it just makes the controls feel better.
> My guess is you'll discover you are operating your airplane outside
the planned envelope and probably you need something more capable. Go
see John Harmon -- he has this thing called a Rocket. JBB
>
> ps -- a big ps here: I can imagine there maybe might be one or two
cases out there where some error in building might bias the CG or wing
location which would adversely affect the normal passenger load handling
characteristic, but probably not, it's probably plain and simple weight
and balance.
>
> PGLong@aol.com wrote:
>> Help.......I have an RV-4 and am experiencing landing problems with a
rear seater present. I installed a Landoll Harmonic Balancer and
according to weight and balance, should be able to tote a 225 pounder
and stay within CG limits with correct fuel loads. Even with a 120-150
pound person in the rear seat, the elevator controls are so light it's
almost like moving nothing. Not sure if I'm over controlling, but it is
so easy to get a hip hop dance down the runway. Friend said to try and
use a significant amount of down elevator trim to help. Haven't tried
that yet but will next flight. What works for others? Just stick with
wheel landings? Lots of friends that would like a ride, but hate to
threaten them while I learn new techniques.
>>
>> Pat Long
>> PGLong@aol.com
>> N120PL
>> RV4
>> Bay City, Michigan
>> 3CM
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