Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:12 AM - Re: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming O-320 (FLYaDIVE)
2. 05:15 AM - Gascolator (Was: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming) (George Nielsen)
3. 05:45 AM - Re: Gascolator (Was: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming) (FLYaDIVE)
4. 06:54 PM - Re: Gascolator (Was: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming) (Charlie England)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming O-320 |
Doug:
You are correct.
PRC, PROSEAL and other manufactures, are Polysulphide Sealants.
Two answers:
1 - The OLD chemistry was compatible to alcohol - The chemistry of today
for the sealant is not as good.
2 - The OLD chemistry did not have to deal with ethanol and from doing
sealing jobs on Grumman's (wet wings), I find it does NOT hold up to
today's MoGas. There are other sealants that are NOT available in the USA
due to EPA regulations. MAYBE, they will hold up. But, there is also a
lot of other new chemicals known as AROMATICS that have been added to
MoGas, they also attack the sealant.
Barry
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 2:17 AM, Doug Gray <dgra1233@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> PRC manufactures amongst other things polysulphide fuel tank sealant (aka
> Proseal) that is universally used in RV fuel tanks.. I thought Proseal was
> compatible with alcohol; is that not the case? Does PRC mean something else?
> Doug
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 09/04/2012, at 12:14 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> George:
>
> Unless you went with some NON-Aviation hoses there is NOTHING that you
> have to do.
> ALL aviation hoses have to comply with the ability to handle alcohol in
> 100% concentrations.
> When a GA aircraft receives the STC for MoGas all the testing was
> performed on the engine and air frame as supplied from the factory - NO
> physical changes have to take place.
> Ethanol is a problem with fiberglass fuel tanks and what is known as PRC
> sealants. Other than that GO FOR IT. And if you do a little online
> homework you will find a procedure to "WASH" the ethanol out of MoGas.
>
> Barry
>
> Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 10:48 AM, George Nielsen <genie@swissmail.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> My plan is to enable my RV-6 and its O-320 engine to run on Mogas,
>> including the variety that contains ethanol. I have taken a good look at
>> the fuel system and done some dismantling but I have found no O-rings. The
>> fuel system contains several hoses, some black, some wrapped in dark
>> orange. I suppose that the latter is to protect them, is it not?
>>
>> I would be grateful if anyone could tell me how many hoses an RV-6 has in
>> its fuel system, what their dimensions are and whether the fuel system also
>> included O-rings or anything else that may be susceptible to Mogas, ethanol
>> or water. If that is the case I would like to know how many of these are
>> present and what their dimensions are. Thanks.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> George Nielsen
>> RV-6 PH-XGN
>> The Hague, the Netherlands
>>
>>
>> ====**==============================**=
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>> ====**==============================**=
>> http://forums.matronics.com
>> ====**==============================**=
>> le, List Admin.
>> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/**contribution
>> ====**==============================**=
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Gascolator (Was: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming) |
Thanks to all for your replies. And thanks to Charlie for bringing up
the subject of gascolators.
On the subject of gascolators, my RV-6 is equipped with one. As this
is the only aircraft I have ever flown which has a gascolator I was
wondering about its utility. Would it be just as well to remove it?
Is Mogas more susceptible to vapour lock therein as the gascolator is
located in front of the firewall?
Thanks.
George Nielsen
>Time: 04:36:13 PM PST US
>From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>Subject: Re: RV6-List: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming O-320
>
>
>On 04/08/2012 09:48 AM, George Nielsen wrote:
> >
> > My plan is to enable my RV-6 and its O-320 engine to run on Mogas,
> > including the variety that contains ethanol. I have taken a good look
> > at the fuel system and done some dismantling but I have found no
> > O-rings. The fuel system contains several hoses, some black, some
> > wrapped in dark orange. I suppose that the latter is to protect them,
> > is it not?
> >
> > I would be grateful if anyone could tell me how many hoses an RV-6 has
> > in its fuel system, what their dimensions are and whether the fuel
> > system also included O-rings or anything else that may be susceptible
> > to Mogas, ethanol or water. If that is the case I would like to know
> > how many of these are present and what their dimensions are. Thanks.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > George Nielsen
> > RV-6 PH-XGN
> > The Hague, the Netherlands
>If the fuel system is 'stock', as designed by Van's, and you have the
>standard fuel pickups in the tanks (not the 'flop tubes'), then there
>should be only aluminum line & aluminum fittings from the tank to the
>firewall, with metal-to-metal flare fittings; no O-rings. Van's stock
>fuel selector should be fine, as well. Depending on age, if you have a
>gascolator, it could very well have rubber gaskets that alcohol will
>attack. The flexible hoses are an unknown. If you can't determine the
>actual materials in the hoses, the safe thing would be to simply replace
>.them with teflon lined hose. (USA FAA recommendation is to replace any
>but the new teflon type hose every 5 years, anyway, though many people
>don't do that.) The mechanical fuel pump will likely need to be rebuilt
>with current technology diaphragms & seals; older mechanical pumps *do
>not* survive alcohol for very long. The carb or injector is likely OK,
>but I'd contact the manufacturer to be sure.
>
>Hope that helps,
>
>Charlie
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Gascolator (Was: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming) |
George:
On RV's the location of (MOST) gascolators is in a position that is not
easily accessible and therefor does not get inspected on the pre-flight.
Consider - Most GA aircraft does not have a gascolator.
As for Vapor Lock - Old wives-tails die hard. Yes, MoGas does have a lower
vapor pressure than AvGas but the difference is not that drastic to cause
vapor lock when the AvGas would not. I ran a test a few years back... One
tank MoGas, other tank AvGas - Very Hot day - Short flight around the
pattern - Leaned to heat thing up - Landed - Faced away from the wind - And
restarted ... Difficult Starting, all the conditions and symptoms of vapor
lock. I did the same thing running off the other tank
- DIFFICULT STARTING.
So, hypothesis: If you do things WRONG on a HOT DAY. No matter what fuel
you use you can get Vapor Lock.
Barry
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 5:16 AM, George Nielsen <genie@swissmail.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks to all for your replies. And thanks to Charlie for bringing up the
> subject of gascolators.
>
> On the subject of gascolators, my RV-6 is equipped with one. As this is
> the only aircraft I have ever flown which has a gascolator I was wondering
> about its utility. Would it be just as well to remove it? Is Mogas more
> susceptible to vapour lock therein as the gascolator is located in front of
> the firewall?
>
> Thanks.
>
> George Nielsen
>
> Time: 04:36:13 PM PST US
>> From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>> Subject: Re: RV6-List: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming O-320
>>
>>
>> On 04/08/2012 09:48 AM, George Nielsen wrote:
>> >
>> > My plan is to enable my RV-6 and its O-320 engine to run on Mogas,
>> > including the variety that contains ethanol. I have taken a good look
>> > at the fuel system and done some dismantling but I have found no
>> > O-rings. The fuel system contains several hoses, some black, some
>> > wrapped in dark orange. I suppose that the latter is to protect them,
>> > is it not?
>> >
>> > I would be grateful if anyone could tell me how many hoses an RV-6 has
>> > in its fuel system, what their dimensions are and whether the fuel
>> > system also included O-rings or anything else that may be susceptible
>> > to Mogas, ethanol or water. If that is the case I would like to know
>> > how many of these are present and what their dimensions are. Thanks.
>> >
>> > Kind regards
>> >
>> > George Nielsen
>> > RV-6 PH-XGN
>> > The Hague, the Netherlands
>> If the fuel system is 'stock', as designed by Van's, and you have the
>> standard fuel pickups in the tanks (not the 'flop tubes'), then there
>> should be only aluminum line & aluminum fittings from the tank to the
>> firewall, with metal-to-metal flare fittings; no O-rings. Van's stock
>> fuel selector should be fine, as well. Depending on age, if you have a
>> gascolator, it could very well have rubber gaskets that alcohol will
>> attack. The flexible hoses are an unknown. If you can't determine the
>> actual materials in the hoses, the safe thing would be to simply replace
>> .them with teflon lined hose. (USA FAA recommendation is to replace any
>> but the new teflon type hose every 5 years, anyway, though many people
>> don't do that.) The mechanical fuel pump will likely need to be rebuilt
>> with current technology diaphragms & seals; older mechanical pumps *do
>> not* survive alcohol for very long. The carb or injector is likely OK,
>> but I'd contact the manufacturer to be sure.
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Gascolator (Was: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming) |
Forgot to mention the O-rings in the fuel caps. Older black ones will
probably swell up with any auto fuel (at least they will on USA blends).
Ask Van about the newer brown ones, or do some homework on materials.
There are plenty of O-ring materials that will work fine.
I'd suggest reading through the FAA STC's for auto fuel to determine for
yourself whether you can assume that *all* FAA approved avgas related
products are safe with auto gas. Wait; never mind. There are *no* FAA
STC's that allow alcohol laced autogas in certified aircraft, so STC's
are meaningless when looking for an answer to your question. I can say
for sure that O-rings in at least one older gascolator will dissolve in
alcohol.
Also forgot to mention tank sealant. Again, age of the original product
used matters. The older sealants used in Van's tanks will not stand up
to USA auto fuel blends (even without alcohol). Newer stuff probably
will, but you'd need to check with the sealant manufacturer & give them
the exact model # & age of the sealant to know without finding out the
hard way. (Personal experience with alcohol free auto fuel in a -4
completed in 1992.)
If you've got a 160 hp engine (higher compression), be cautious of
detonation unless you run premium. (I run premium in mine.)
Charlie
Love mogas in my Lyc, but with older planes, there have been issues to
deal with...
On 04/09/2012 04:16 AM, George Nielsen wrote:
>
> Thanks to all for your replies. And thanks to Charlie for bringing up
> the subject of gascolators.
>
> On the subject of gascolators, my RV-6 is equipped with one. As this
> is the only aircraft I have ever flown which has a gascolator I was
> wondering about its utility. Would it be just as well to remove it? Is
> Mogas more susceptible to vapour lock therein as the gascolator is
> located in front of the firewall?
>
> Thanks.
>
> George Nielsen
>
>> Time: 04:36:13 PM PST US
>> From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>> Subject: Re: RV6-List: Hoses and O-rings in RV-6 with Lycoming O-320
>>
>>
>> On 04/08/2012 09:48 AM, George Nielsen wrote:
>> >
>> > My plan is to enable my RV-6 and its O-320 engine to run on Mogas,
>> > including the variety that contains ethanol. I have taken a good look
>> > at the fuel system and done some dismantling but I have found no
>> > O-rings. The fuel system contains several hoses, some black, some
>> > wrapped in dark orange. I suppose that the latter is to protect them,
>> > is it not?
>> >
>> > I would be grateful if anyone could tell me how many hoses an RV-6 has
>> > in its fuel system, what their dimensions are and whether the fuel
>> > system also included O-rings or anything else that may be susceptible
>> > to Mogas, ethanol or water. If that is the case I would like to know
>> > how many of these are present and what their dimensions are. Thanks.
>> >
>> > Kind regards
>> >
>> > George Nielsen
>> > RV-6 PH-XGN
>> > The Hague, the Netherlands
>> If the fuel system is 'stock', as designed by Van's, and you have the
>> standard fuel pickups in the tanks (not the 'flop tubes'), then there
>> should be only aluminum line & aluminum fittings from the tank to the
>> firewall, with metal-to-metal flare fittings; no O-rings. Van's stock
>> fuel selector should be fine, as well. Depending on age, if you have a
>> gascolator, it could very well have rubber gaskets that alcohol will
>> attack. The flexible hoses are an unknown. If you can't determine the
>> actual materials in the hoses, the safe thing would be to simply replace
>> .them with teflon lined hose. (USA FAA recommendation is to replace any
>> but the new teflon type hose every 5 years, anyway, though many people
>> don't do that.) The mechanical fuel pump will likely need to be rebuilt
>> with current technology diaphragms & seals; older mechanical pumps *do
>> not* survive alcohol for very long. The carb or injector is likely OK,
>> but I'd contact the manufacturer to be sure.
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>>
>> Charlie
>
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