---------------------------------------------------------- RV7-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/04/03: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:52 AM - Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED : Quiet Drills (cary rhodes) 2. 06:21 AM - Re: Quiet Drills (Scott Trask) 3. 07:42 AM - Re: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (Ross Schlotthauer) 4. 10:05 AM - Re: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (Scott Bilinski) 5. 10:21 AM - Re: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (John Adams) 6. 10:22 AM - Re: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (Rob Prior) 7. 10:25 AM - Re: RV7A pitch oscillation was Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (Tim Shultz) 8. 10:40 AM - Re: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (Scott Bilinski) 9. 10:45 AM - Re: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (Willke, Theodore L) 10. 10:47 AM - Electric drills and aluminum airplanes (Kevin Faris) 11. 11:39 AM - Re: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (Ross Schlotthauer) 12. 12:20 PM - Re: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (Rob Prior) 13. 02:21 PM - Re: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (Ross Schlotthauer) 14. 06:37 PM - Quiet drills-revenge of the air drill (Merems) 15. 08:33 PM - Re: Quiet drills-revenge of the air drill (Wayne Halbsgut) 16. 09:34 PM - Re: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING (Cliff Lotter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:58 AM PST US From: cary rhodes Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED : RV7-List: Quiet Drills --> RV7-List message posted by: cary rhodes Paul I use battery drills a majority of the time. I keep two, one makitta and one bosch. They are alot faster changing out the bits. I do have a compressor though and use the air drill on much repetative work. You just about gotta have one for the pneunatic squeezeer. I wouldn't start a project without a rivet squeezer. Your elbows, arms and shoulders are worth more than an expensive air tool. more food for thought cary -7 finish items --- "Francis, David CMDR" wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Francis, David > CMDR" > > Paul, > I do not wish to disagree with your very well > reasoned arguments. However my > experience has been different. > > Rule # 1 is "you get what you pay for". A good > quality compressor of at > least 17cfm will be quiet and will operate > intermittently except only for a > die grinder. > > Makita and Bosch electric drills, plus some other > brands are good quality > drills. However they are electric and there is a > real issue of swarf buildup > over time maybe leading to a zap. This is aside from > the weight and size > over an air drill. > > I have a Shimano air drill that does 5,000rpm cost > US$150, is fairly quiet, > has a teasing trigger and has never ever dripped > oil. Its beautiful to use, > compared to my other air drill, a cheapie US$60, > 1,700rpm deal that is > pretty rough. My air nibbler does deposit oil, which > lubricates and cools > the cutting bit. > > I need the compressor anyway to drive the rivet gun, > so I got a good > compressor. So having used lots of electric tools > in wood work for many > years I am gradually converting to air tools. > > Have fun, David Francis, VH-ZEE > > > Email: David.Francis@defence.gov.au > > > > > After considering the noise (to me > and my neighbors-which > might just be your wife in the room next to the > garage), the oily mess, the > cost of the Mega compressor, I decided the electric > drill worked before and > it will work again. I researched what was available > on the market and was > disappointed by the weight of many of the electric > drills out there. If you > buy the cheep electric drills, they won't last > through the project. I > settled on a Makita 6410 3/8 VSR 2200 RPM. It has a > low noise rating and is > 1/2 lbs or so lighter then any other "quality" drill > on the market. I bought > it for $32.00 delivered (Tool King). > > Van talks about cutting speeds of > 2000-3000 rpms to drill > aluminum. Since most of the new RV kits are > pre-punched, you are not > drilling out a lot of material. In fact, I find > that I run my drill rather > slowly most of the time. When I microstop machine > countersink is when I run > my drill at full bore. > > Food for thought. > > Paul > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV7-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv7-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills From: Scott Trask --> RV7-List message posted by: Scott Trask on 2/3/03 9:18 PM, Merems at merems@cox.net wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems" > > I have seen posting from builders about there mega compressors and their air > drills. Everyone knows that if your really are going to be an airplane > builder you must use air drills. Just about every major aircraft company uses > air drills, so they must be the right choice. > > Well here is some real food for thought if you haven't made the plunge yet. I > image most builders build there RV's in their garage. Most of these garages > maybe attached to their homes and many are in a neighborhoods. I used > electric drills on my RV-4 and I thought I would graduate up to the big > leagues with an air drill on my RV-7 project. I have been eyeing that big 60 > gallon upright 220 Volt Husky compressor at Home Depot for years. My time had > come, I was going to load that baby in the back of my pickup and join the few, > the proud the, "real" builders. Then I saw it, on sale, price reduced, a CH > air drill at Home Depot. I thought to my self, I can buy it an see if it has > a good "teasing" throttle on it. This is important because without slow speed > control of the drill, it will very hard to use. So I bought it and took it > home and hooked it up to my 20 gal. 110 volt compressor I have had for 20 > years. I wanted to see how loud the drill was and how many holes I co! > uld drill until the compressor would startup. I got about 5 holes drilled and > the compressor chimed in. I had the pressure set to 65-70 psi. Not only was > the whine of the air drill motor and the compressor cranking in to stay up > with every 5 holes annoying to my ears, but the spitting of the light oil from > the air drill onto my hands and onto the parts I was drilling made matters > intolerable. Seeing that I could barely tolerate the noise in the shop, my > neighbors would have to endure some of the collateral noise coming from my > shop. Considering there are over 10,000 rivets in an RV, my compressor would > mostly be running continuously when I would be drilling and a few pints of oil > (exaggerated) would be misting on my parts. If I bought the 60 gallon > compressor it wouldn't run as much, but still quiet a bit. > > After considering the noise (to me and my neighbors-which might just be your > wife in the room next to the garage), the oily mess, the cost of the Mega > compressor, I decided the electric drill worked before and it will work again. > I researched what was available on the market and was disappointed by the > weight of many of the electric drills out there. If you buy the cheep > electric drills, they won't last through the project. I settled on a Makita > 6410 3/8 VSR 2200 RPM. It has a low noise rating and is 1/2 lbs or so lighter > then any other "quality" drill on the market. I bought it for $32.00 delivered > (Tool King). > > Van talks about cutting speeds of 2000-3000 rpms to drill aluminum. Since > most of the new RV kits are pre-punched, you are not drilling out a lot of > material. In fact, I find that I run my drill rather slowly most of the time. > When I microstop machine countersink is when I run my drill at full bore. > > Food for thought. > > Paul > > > > Hi I've been using 2 cordless drills 110V drills and a 90 degree air drill. The air drill I used only a few times on this project. Each drill motor has a drill bit or deburing bit in them. You don't have to keep changing bits. I've had these drill motors for years. One drilling tool that I have is a flexible extension--very useful. You would use it more than the right angle drill About done with the fuselage 7A. Scott Trask IMT ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:36 AM PST US From: Ross Schlotthauer Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer Paul, You have overlooked a very major point. Everyone except you is using the air drill not only because they are light and small and last forever and if oiled appropriately ( 2 or three drops every building session) don't spit any oil and are fairly quite if you are using a quality drill with a good silencer, but because of airworthiness concerns. It is on page one of the construction manual in bold type, Do not use electric hand tools on this aircraft, structural damage will be the result of doing so! Induction motors immerse the highly conductive aluminum components in a very damaging electromagnetic inductive field surrounding the motor. This electromagnetic field alters the microstructure of the structural grade aluminum and predisposes the flight critical components to fatigue failures. This is a very proven and thoroughly documented cause of structural failures in early all-metal aircraft. Please, please do not make this mistake as there will surely be grave consequences for you and your passengers and horrific insurance problems for the rest of us. If you do decide to use electric hand tools I would recommend fully disclosing this to your insurance company prior to beginning construction of the horizontal stabilizer. Failure to do so could result in denial of an otherwise justified claim. On a side note, If it is a 7A you are building please be forewarned that the induced form drag from the nose wheel creates forward pitching tendency that can only be overcome by additional elevator deflection thereby setting up an oscillation that can quickly get out of control and further compound the fatigue problems initiated with the electric drill motor. The only practical salvation from these problems is to build a -7 model and utilize a sliding canopy so that during the inevitable crash and rollover you are protected by the superior structural integrity of the sliding canopy. Just food for thought from a totally ambiguous builder. Ross Schlotthauer RV-7 Fuse --- Merems wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems" > > > I have seen posting from builders about there mega > compressors and their air drills. Everyone knows > that if your really are going to be an airplane > builder you must use air drills. Just about every > major aircraft company uses air drills, so they must > be the right choice. > > Well here is some real food for thought if you > haven't made the plunge yet. I image most builders > build there RV's in their garage. Most of these > garages maybe attached to their homes and many are > in a neighborhoods. I used electric drills on my > RV-4 and I thought I would graduate up to the big > leagues with an air drill on my RV-7 project. I > have been eyeing that big 60 gallon upright 220 Volt > Husky compressor at Home Depot for years. My time > had come, I was going to load that baby in the back > of my pickup and join the few, the proud the, "real" > builders. Then I saw it, on sale, price reduced, a > CH air drill at Home Depot. I thought to my self, I > can buy it an see if it has a good "teasing" > throttle on it. This is important because without > slow speed control of the drill, it will very hard > to use. So I bought it and took it home and hooked > it up to my 20 gal. 110 volt compressor I have had > for 20 years. I wanted to see how loud the drill > was and how many holes I co! > uld drill until the compressor would startup. I got > about 5 holes drilled and the compressor chimed in. > I had the pressure set to 65-70 psi. Not only was > the whine of the air drill motor and the compressor > cranking in to stay up with every 5 holes annoying > to my ears, but the spitting of the light oil from > the air drill onto my hands and onto the parts I was > drilling made matters intolerable. Seeing that I > could barely tolerate the noise in the shop, my > neighbors would have to endure some of the > collateral noise coming from my shop. Considering > there are over 10,000 rivets in an RV, my compressor > would mostly be running continuously when I would be > drilling and a few pints of oil (exaggerated) would > be misting on my parts. If I bought the 60 gallon > compressor it wouldn't run as much, but still quiet > a bit. > > After considering the noise (to me and my > neighbors-which might just be your wife in the room > next to the garage), the oily mess, the cost of the > Mega compressor, I decided the electric drill worked > before and it will work again. I researched what > was available on the market and was disappointed by > the weight of many of the electric drills out there. > If you buy the cheep electric drills, they won't > last through the project. I settled on a Makita > 6410 3/8 VSR 2200 RPM. It has a low noise rating > and is 1/2 lbs or so lighter then any other > "quality" drill on the market. I bought it for > $32.00 delivered (Tool King). > > Van talks about cutting speeds of 2000-3000 rpms to > drill aluminum. Since most of the new RV kits are > pre-punched, you are not drilling out a lot of > material. In fact, I find that I run my drill > rather slowly most of the time. When I microstop > machine countersink is when I run my drill at full > bore. > > Food for thought. > > Paul > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV7-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv7-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:39 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski This is very interesting, where can one find more information on this? At 07:41 AM 2/4/03 -0800, you wrote: >--> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer > >Paul, > >You have overlooked a very major point. Everyone >except you is using the air drill not only because >they are light and small and last forever and if oiled >appropriately ( 2 or three drops every building >session) don't spit any oil and are fairly quite if >you are using a quality drill with a good silencer, >but because of airworthiness concerns. It is on page >one of the construction manual in bold type, Do not >use electric hand tools on this aircraft, structural >damage will be the result of doing so! Induction >motors immerse the highly conductive aluminum >components in a very damaging electromagnetic >inductive field surrounding the motor. This >electromagnetic field alters the microstructure of the >structural grade aluminum and predisposes the flight >critical components to fatigue failures. This is a >very proven and thoroughly documented cause of >structural failures in early all-metal aircraft. > >Please, please do not make this mistake as there will >surely be grave consequences for you and your >passengers and horrific insurance problems for the >rest of us. If you do decide to use electric hand >tools I would recommend fully disclosing this to your >insurance company prior to beginning construction of >the horizontal stabilizer. Failure to do so could >result in denial of an otherwise justified claim. > >On a side note, If it is a 7A you are building please >be forewarned that the induced form drag from the nose >wheel creates forward pitching tendency that can only >be overcome by additional elevator deflection thereby >setting up an oscillation that can quickly get out of >control and further compound the fatigue problems >initiated with the electric drill motor. > >The only practical salvation from these problems is to >build a -7 model and utilize a sliding canopy so that >during the inevitable crash and rollover you are >protected by the superior structural integrity of the >sliding canopy. > >Just food for thought from a totally ambiguous >builder. > >Ross Schlotthauer >RV-7 Fuse > > >--- Merems wrote: >> --> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems" >> >> >> I have seen posting from builders about there mega >> compressors and their air drills. Everyone knows >> that if your really are going to be an airplane >> builder you must use air drills. Just about every >> major aircraft company uses air drills, so they must >> be the right choice. >> >> Well here is some real food for thought if you >> haven't made the plunge yet. I image most builders >> build there RV's in their garage. Most of these >> garages maybe attached to their homes and many are >> in a neighborhoods. I used electric drills on my >> RV-4 and I thought I would graduate up to the big >> leagues with an air drill on my RV-7 project. I >> have been eyeing that big 60 gallon upright 220 Volt >> Husky compressor at Home Depot for years. My time >> had come, I was going to load that baby in the back >> of my pickup and join the few, the proud the, "real" >> builders. Then I saw it, on sale, price reduced, a >> CH air drill at Home Depot. I thought to my self, I >> can buy it an see if it has a good "teasing" >> throttle on it. This is important because without >> slow speed control of the drill, it will very hard >> to use. So I bought it and took it home and hooked >> it up to my 20 gal. 110 volt compressor I have had >> for 20 years. I wanted to see how loud the drill >> was and how many holes I co! >> uld drill until the compressor would startup. I got >> about 5 holes drilled and the compressor chimed in. >> I had the pressure set to 65-70 psi. Not only was >> the whine of the air drill motor and the compressor >> cranking in to stay up with every 5 holes annoying >> to my ears, but the spitting of the light oil from >> the air drill onto my hands and onto the parts I was >> drilling made matters intolerable. Seeing that I >> could barely tolerate the noise in the shop, my >> neighbors would have to endure some of the >> collateral noise coming from my shop. Considering >> there are over 10,000 rivets in an RV, my compressor >> would mostly be running continuously when I would be >> drilling and a few pints of oil (exaggerated) would >> be misting on my parts. If I bought the 60 gallon >> compressor it wouldn't run as much, but still quiet >> a bit. >> >> After considering the noise (to me and my >> neighbors-which might just be your wife in the room >> next to the garage), the oily mess, the cost of the >> Mega compressor, I decided the electric drill worked >> before and it will work again. I researched what >> was available on the market and was disappointed by >> the weight of many of the electric drills out there. >> If you buy the cheep electric drills, they won't >> last through the project. I settled on a Makita >> 6410 3/8 VSR 2200 RPM. It has a low noise rating >> and is 1/2 lbs or so lighter then any other >> "quality" drill on the market. I bought it for >> $32.00 delivered (Tool King). >> >> Van talks about cutting speeds of 2000-3000 rpms to >> drill aluminum. Since most of the new RV kits are >> pre-punched, you are not drilling out a lot of >> material. In fact, I find that I run my drill >> rather slowly most of the time. When I microstop >> machine countersink is when I run my drill at full >> bore. >> >> Food for thought. >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> Contributions >> any other >> Forums. >> >> latest messages. >> List members. >> >> http://www.matronics.com/subscription >> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV7-List.htm >> Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv7-list >> http://www.matronics.com/archives >> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare >> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists >> >> >> >> >> > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 8220 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:18 AM PST US From: John Adams Subject: RE: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: John Adams Scott, you could try http://www.urbanlegends.com. John Adams N577RV -----Original Message----- From: Scott Bilinski [mailto:bilinski@qcpi.com] Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski This is very interesting, where can one find more information on this? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:13 AM PST US From: Rob Prior Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: Rob Prior Ross Schlotthauer wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer > > Induction > motors immerse the highly conductive aluminum > components in a very damaging electromagnetic > inductive field surrounding the motor. This > electromagnetic field alters the microstructure of the > structural grade aluminum and predisposes the flight > critical components to fatigue failures. This is a > very proven and thoroughly documented cause of > structural failures in early all-metal aircraft. Wow. I'm not a materials specialist by any means, but I *am* a mech eng., and this is the first i've heard about an EMF from a drill being able to alter the microstructure of aluminum. I may be completely wrong, and this is just one of those things that doesn't get published anywhere prominent. But without any references to verify this claim, i'd have to say it sounds like a load of hogwash. Would you care to provide some references that I could check? Thanks, -RB4 RV-7 Empennage (and quite happily finish drilling all these pre-punched holes with an 1800 rpm DeWalt cordless *electric* drill). ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:56 AM PST US From: "Tim Shultz" Subject: Re: RV7A pitch oscillation was RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: "Tim Shultz" Huh? Is this a joke? > --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer > On a side note, If it is a 7A you are building please > be forewarned that the induced form drag from the nose > wheel creates forward pitching tendency that can only > be overcome by additional elevator deflection thereby > setting up an oscillation that can quickly get out of > control and further compound the fatigue problems > initiated with the electric drill motor. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:22 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: RE: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Thaaaats what I thought. At 10:21 AM 2/4/03 -0800, you wrote: >--> RV7-List message posted by: John Adams > >Scott, you could try http://www.urbanlegends.com. >John Adams >N577RV > >-----Original Message----- >From: Scott Bilinski [mailto:bilinski@qcpi.com] >To: rv7-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING > > >--> RV7-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > >This is very interesting, where can one find more information on this? > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 8220 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:56 AM PST US From: "Willke, Theodore L" Subject: RE: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: "Willke, Theodore L" Ross, The safety issue you raise regarding electric hand tools and metal aircraft construction sounds pretty amazing. I'm not saying that your claim is overstated (yet) but you should provide credible references for strong claims such as this. Maybe you're referring to anodization or induction annealing? I can assure you that the motor of your handheld drill cannot generate sufficient EM field strength (or stray currents) to do either of these. At any rate, I'm confident that Paul, most certainly I, would appreciate some reference publication pointers. By the way, I don't know what version of the manual you have but my RV-7 Construction Manual doesn't seem to have this statement. In fact, my manual goes into the trade-offs between electric and air drills quite extensively (Sec 3r1 11/12/01, 3-1, Sec 5r4 10/24/02), primarily discussing relative performance and cost issues. Thanks, Ted Willke RV-7, Emp -----Original Message----- From: Ross Schlotthauer [mailto:rdschlotthauer@yahoo.com] Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer Paul, You have overlooked a very major point. Everyone except you is using the air drill not only because they are light and small and last forever and if oiled appropriately ( 2 or three drops every building session) don't spit any oil and are fairly quite if you are using a quality drill with a good silencer, but because of airworthiness concerns. It is on page one of the construction manual in bold type, Do not use electric hand tools on this aircraft, structural damage will be the result of doing so! Induction motors immerse the highly conductive aluminum components in a very damaging electromagnetic inductive field surrounding the motor. This electromagnetic field alters the microstructure of the structural grade aluminum and predisposes the flight critical components to fatigue failures. This is a very proven and thoroughly documented cause of structural failures in early all-metal aircraft. Please, please do not make this mistake as there will surely be grave consequences for you and your passengers and horrific insurance problems for the rest of us. If you do decide to use electric hand tools I would recommend fully disclosing this to your insurance company prior to beginning construction of the horizontal stabilizer. Failure to do so could result in denial of an otherwise justified claim. On a side note, If it is a 7A you are building please be forewarned that the induced form drag from the nose wheel creates forward pitching tendency that can only be overcome by additional elevator deflection thereby setting up an oscillation that can quickly get out of control and further compound the fatigue problems initiated with the electric drill motor. The only practical salvation from these problems is to build a -7 model and utilize a sliding canopy so that during the inevitable crash and rollover you are protected by the superior structural integrity of the sliding canopy. Just food for thought from a totally ambiguous builder. Ross Schlotthauer RV-7 Fuse --- Merems wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems" > > > I have seen posting from builders about there mega > compressors and their air drills. Everyone knows > that if your really are going to be an airplane > builder you must use air drills. Just about every > major aircraft company uses air drills, so they must > be the right choice. > > Well here is some real food for thought if you > haven't made the plunge yet. I image most builders > build there RV's in their garage. Most of these > garages maybe attached to their homes and many are > in a neighborhoods. I used electric drills on my > RV-4 and I thought I would graduate up to the big > leagues with an air drill on my RV-7 project. I > have been eyeing that big 60 gallon upright 220 Volt > Husky compressor at Home Depot for years. My time > had come, I was going to load that baby in the back > of my pickup and join the few, the proud the, "real" > builders. Then I saw it, on sale, price reduced, a > CH air drill at Home Depot. I thought to my self, I > can buy it an see if it has a good "teasing" > throttle on it. This is important because without > slow speed control of the drill, it will very hard > to use. So I bought it and took it home and hooked > it up to my 20 gal. 110 volt compressor I have had > for 20 years. I wanted to see how loud the drill > was and how many holes I co! > uld drill until the compressor would startup. I got > about 5 holes drilled and the compressor chimed in. > I had the pressure set to 65-70 psi. Not only was > the whine of the air drill motor and the compressor > cranking in to stay up with every 5 holes annoying > to my ears, but the spitting of the light oil from > the air drill onto my hands and onto the parts I was > drilling made matters intolerable. Seeing that I > could barely tolerate the noise in the shop, my > neighbors would have to endure some of the > collateral noise coming from my shop. Considering > there are over 10,000 rivets in an RV, my compressor > would mostly be running continuously when I would be > drilling and a few pints of oil (exaggerated) would > be misting on my parts. If I bought the 60 gallon > compressor it wouldn't run as much, but still quiet > a bit. > > After considering the noise (to me and my > neighbors-which might just be your wife in the room > next to the garage), the oily mess, the cost of the > Mega compressor, I decided the electric drill worked > before and it will work again. I researched what > was available on the market and was disappointed by > the weight of many of the electric drills out there. > If you buy the cheep electric drills, they won't > last through the project. I settled on a Makita > 6410 3/8 VSR 2200 RPM. It has a low noise rating > and is 1/2 lbs or so lighter then any other > "quality" drill on the market. I bought it for > $32.00 delivered (Tool King). > > Van talks about cutting speeds of 2000-3000 rpms to > drill aluminum. Since most of the new RV kits are > pre-punched, you are not drilling out a lot of > material. In fact, I find that I run my drill > rather slowly most of the time. When I microstop > machine countersink is when I run my drill at full > bore. > > Food for thought. > > Paul > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV7-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv7-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:55 AM PST US From: "Kevin Faris" Subject: RV7-List: Electric drills and aluminum airplanes --> RV7-List message posted by: "Kevin Faris" Induction > motors immerse the highly conductive aluminum > components in a very damaging electromagnetic > inductive field surrounding the motor. This > electromagnetic field alters the microstructure of the > structural grade aluminum and predisposes the flight > critical components to fatigue failures. This is a > very proven and thoroughly documented cause of > structural failures in early all-metal aircraft. If this were true you could not have flap motors, landing gear motors, or electrical gyro instruments on an aircraft. It would be interesting to hear how a non-ferrous metal can be influenced by a magnetic field. Kev RV7 finishing wings, fuse arrives in a couple weeks ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:17 AM PST US From: Ross Schlotthauer Subject: RE: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer Yes gentlemen, this is all true and a very serious matter. This has been researched very extensively by Virginia Tech using grant money from NASA. I have a full length copy of this report and would be happy to send a copy to anyone that is interested. Please submit your request on my website along with your credit card payment. The URL is www.imagullablejackass.com. Please indicate your available credit limit on the form. Doesn't anyone even question the aerodynamic ascillations from the nose wheel or the superior structural integrity of the slider? Ross --- "Willke, Theodore L" wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Willke, Theodore L" > > > Ross, > > The safety issue you raise regarding electric hand > tools and metal aircraft > construction sounds pretty amazing. I'm not saying > that your claim is > overstated (yet) but you should provide credible > references for strong > claims such as this. Maybe you're referring to > anodization or induction > annealing? I can assure you that the motor of your > handheld drill cannot > generate sufficient EM field strength (or stray > currents) to do either of > these. At any rate, I'm confident that Paul, most > certainly I, would > appreciate some reference publication pointers. > > By the way, I don't know what version of the manual > you have but my RV-7 > Construction Manual doesn't seem to have this > statement. In fact, my manual > goes into the trade-offs between electric and air > drills quite extensively > (Sec 3r1 11/12/01, 3-1, Sec 5r4 10/24/02), primarily > discussing relative > performance and cost issues. > > Thanks, > > Ted Willke > RV-7, Emp > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ross Schlotthauer > [mailto:rdschlotthauer@yahoo.com] > To: rv7-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING > > > --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer > > > Paul, > > You have overlooked a very major point. Everyone > except you is using the air drill not only because > they are light and small and last forever and if > oiled > appropriately ( 2 or three drops every building > session) don't spit any oil and are fairly quite if > you are using a quality drill with a good silencer, > but because of airworthiness concerns. It is on > page > one of the construction manual in bold type, Do not > use electric hand tools on this aircraft, structural > damage will be the result of doing so! Induction > motors immerse the highly conductive aluminum > components in a very damaging electromagnetic > inductive field surrounding the motor. This > electromagnetic field alters the microstructure of > the > structural grade aluminum and predisposes the flight > critical components to fatigue failures. This is a > very proven and thoroughly documented cause of > structural failures in early all-metal aircraft. > > Please, please do not make this mistake as there > will > surely be grave consequences for you and your > passengers and horrific insurance problems for the > rest of us. If you do decide to use electric hand > tools I would recommend fully disclosing this to > your > insurance company prior to beginning construction of > the horizontal stabilizer. Failure to do so could > result in denial of an otherwise justified claim. > > On a side note, If it is a 7A you are building > please > be forewarned that the induced form drag from the > nose > wheel creates forward pitching tendency that can > only > be overcome by additional elevator deflection > thereby > setting up an oscillation that can quickly get out > of > control and further compound the fatigue problems > initiated with the electric drill motor. > > The only practical salvation from these problems is > to > build a -7 model and utilize a sliding canopy so > that > during the inevitable crash and rollover you are > protected by the superior structural integrity of > the > sliding canopy. > > Just food for thought from a totally ambiguous > builder. > > Ross Schlotthauer > RV-7 Fuse > > > --- Merems wrote: > > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems" > > > > > > I have seen posting from builders about there mega > > compressors and their air drills. Everyone knows > > that if your really are going to be an airplane > > builder you must use air drills. Just about every > > major aircraft company uses air drills, so they > must > > be the right choice. > > > > Well here is some real food for thought if you > > haven't made the plunge yet. I image most > builders > > build there RV's in their garage. Most of these > > garages maybe attached to their homes and many are > > in a neighborhoods. I used electric drills on my > > RV-4 and I thought I would graduate up to the big > > leagues with an air drill on my RV-7 project. I > > have been eyeing that big 60 gallon upright 220 > Volt > > Husky compressor at Home Depot for years. My time > > had come, I was going to load that baby in the > back > > of my pickup and join the few, the proud the, > "real" > > builders. Then I saw it, on sale, price reduced, > a > > CH air drill at Home Depot. I thought to my self, > I > > can buy it an see if it has a good "teasing" > > throttle on it. This is important because without > > slow speed control of the drill, it will very hard > > to use. So I bought it and took it home and > hooked > > it up to my 20 gal. 110 volt compressor I have had > > for 20 years. I wanted to see how loud the drill > > was and how many holes I co! > > uld drill until the compressor would startup. I > got > > about 5 holes drilled and the compressor chimed > in. > > I had the pressure set to 65-70 psi. Not only was > > the whine of the air drill motor and the > compressor > > cranking in to stay up with every 5 holes annoying > > to my ears, but the spitting of the light oil from > > the air drill onto my hands and onto the parts I > was > > drilling made matters intolerable. Seeing that I > > could barely tolerate the noise in the shop, my > > neighbors would have to endure some of the > > collateral noise coming from my shop. Considering > > there are over 10,000 rivets in an RV, my > compressor > > would mostly be running continuously when I would > be > > drilling and a few pints of oil (exaggerated) > would > > be misting on my parts. If I bought the 60 gallon > > compressor it wouldn't run as much, but still > quiet > > a bit. > > > > After considering the noise (to me and my > > neighbors-which might just be your wife in the > room > > next to the garage), the oily mess, the cost of > the > > Mega compressor, I decided the electric drill > worked > > before and it will work again. I researched what > > was available on the market and was disappointed > by > > the weight of many of the electric drills out > there. > > If you buy the cheep electric drills, they won't > > last through the project. I settled on a Makita > > 6410 3/8 VSR 2200 RPM. It has a low noise rating > > and is 1/2 lbs or so lighter then any other > > "quality" drill on the market. I bought it for > > $32.00 delivered (Tool King). > > > > Van talks about cutting speeds of 2000-3000 rpms > to > > drill aluminum. Since most of the new RV kits are > > pre-punched, you are not drilling out a lot of > > material. In fact, I find that I run my drill > > rather slowly most of the time. When I microstop > > machine countersink is when I run my drill at full > === message truncated === ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:46 PM PST US From: Rob Prior Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: Rob Prior Ross Schlotthauer wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer > > The URL is > www.imagullablejackass.com. Please indicate your > available credit limit on the form. I've got as good a sense of humour as the next guy, but at the very least a smiley may have been in order at the end of your message... Calling the people (myself included) who "fell" for your little charade jackasses is a bit much. > Doesn't anyone even question the aerodynamic > ascillations from the nose wheel or the superior > structural integrity of the slider? Of course not. Those are the reasons i'm building a tailwheel slider myself. You mean they're not real? 8-) -RB4 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:12 PM PST US From: Ross Schlotthauer Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer Fellas, No hard feelings I hope. Just a little too much time on my hands today I guess. I owe each of you a drink at Osh. Ross --- Rob Prior wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: Rob Prior > > > Ross Schlotthauer wrote: > > --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer > > > > > The URL is > > www.imagullablejackass.com. Please indicate your > > available credit limit on the form. > > I've got as good a sense of humour as the next guy, > but at the very > least a smiley may have been in order at the end of > your message... > Calling the people (myself included) who "fell" for > your little charade > jackasses is a bit much. > > > Doesn't anyone even question the aerodynamic > > ascillations from the nose wheel or the superior > > structural integrity of the slider? > > Of course not. Those are the reasons i'm building a > tailwheel slider > myself. You mean they're not real? > > 8-) > > -RB4 > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV7-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv7-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:36 PM PST US From: "Merems" Subject: RV7-List: Quiet drills-revenge of the air drill --> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems" Gents, My purpose for writing about air drill vs electric drills was to help others out who maybe deciding on which path to take. The responses to this email have been very interesting. As I mentioned in the email, all aerospace companies us air drills so that must be the best, right? Not always. Why do they use them. I have heard several possibilities. Many of them make sense. But lets put our thinking caps on and look back when they first started building metal airplanes. I don't know the exact date, but maybe 1915 or so. Back then most powered shop tools were driven by overhead belts and a central motor sources. The electric hand drill wasn't even invented back then. "In the early 1900's the electric drill weighed upwards of 50 pounds, required two people to operate it and a third to control the power source. But in 1917, on a kitchen table, S. Duncan Black and Alonzo B. Decker, Sr. conceived the first portable drill. " The only way to get a hand power tool in someone's hands on the assembly line was to use air. It was easy to plumb through the shop, and was safe. You could get a lot of power out of a very small and lightweight package, easy to maintain and you could easily control the speed. That's how it all started. And if you haven't figured it out, metal aircraft production hasn't changed very much over the last 80 or so years. This maybe why they still use them. Electric drills have come along way since the 1960's. I remember my father's Porter-Cable. All metal construction single speed, weighed 4 to 5 pounds. With in the use of plastics, lightweight alloys and variable speed control, electric drills can be just as good as their air powered counterparts. For those who are interested in keeping the noise levels down, not needing a "mega" compressor, look into electric (corded) drills. Makita makes several, but I chose the #6410 for the following reasons, 2.6# (lightest weight of all professional drills from all the brands), 2200 rpm, and variable speed. I haven't been disappointed yet. I burned up two 2500 rpm B&D (non-professional series) drills building my RV-4. Based on my experiences with other Makita products, I believe the Makita will make it through my RV-7. I hope this helps others. Paul ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:11 PM PST US From: Wayne Halbsgut Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet drills-revenge of the air drill --> RV7-List message posted by: Wayne Halbsgut Let me add two more practical reasons why we use air operated drills. 1. Although all parts will eventually be deburred, the parts that come in the kit can start out very sharp. Dragging a 110V cord around sharp aluminum edges can easily lead to a sliced wire and a nice shower of sparks (not to mention the possibility of shock). A cut air hose does not pose any danger. I know most cords have tough rubber sheathing, but builders will try to use that old extension cord even though it may be frayed. Then ZAP! 2. Second, drilling creates a lot of metal shavings, some large, some very small. Drilling down or horizontally will probably not be a problem. There will come a time when drilling UP is necessary. Since most drills have an integral fan for cooling, the small metal shavings can easily be sucked into the air vents and end up in the drill, eventually shorting it out (possibly with sparks). Maybe this just means you'll be buying a new drill, but this will never happen with an air drill. For what it's worth. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merems" Subject: RV7-List: Quiet drills-revenge of the air drill > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems" > > Gents, > > My purpose for writing about air drill vs electric drills was to help others out who maybe deciding on which path to take. The responses to this email have been very interesting. As I mentioned in the email, all aerospace companies us air drills so that must be the best, right? Not always. Why do they use them. I have heard several possibilities. Many of them make sense. But lets put our thinking caps on and look back when they first started building metal airplanes. I don't know the exact date, but maybe 1915 or so. Back then most powered shop tools were driven by overhead belts and a central motor sources. The electric hand drill wasn't even invented back then. > > "In the early 1900's the electric drill weighed upwards of 50 pounds, required two people to operate it and a third to control the power source. But in 1917, on a kitchen table, S. Duncan Black and Alonzo B. Decker, Sr. conceived the first portable drill. " > > The only way to get a hand power tool in someone's hands on the assembly line was to use air. It was easy to plumb through the shop, and was safe. You could get a lot of power out of a very small and lightweight package, easy to maintain and you could easily control the speed. That's how it all started. And if you haven't figured it out, metal aircraft production hasn't changed very much over the last 80 or so years. This maybe why they still use them. Electric drills have come along way since the 1960's. I remember my father's Porter-Cable. All metal construction single speed, weighed 4 to 5 pounds. With in the use of plastics, lightweight alloys and variable speed control, electric drills can be just as good as their air powered counterparts. > > For those who are interested in keeping the noise levels down, not needing a "mega" compressor, look into electric (corded) drills. Makita makes several, but I chose the #6410 for the following reasons, 2.6# (lightest weight of all professional drills from all the brands), 2200 rpm, and variable speed. I haven't been disappointed yet. I burned up two 2500 rpm B&D (non-professional series) drills building my RV-4. Based on my experiences with other Makita products, I believe the Makita will make it through my RV-7. > > I hope this helps others. > > Paul > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:17 PM PST US From: "Cliff Lotter" Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING --> RV7-List message posted by: "Cliff Lotter" What Ross is saying is quite true and that is why I only make use of reversible drills so that after I have enlarged or countersunk the hole I then reverse the direction for 2 or 3 turns to cancel out this dreaded phenomonen. By the way in the southern hemisphere this whole issue is reversed. Cliff Lotter South Africa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ross Schlotthauer" Subject: Re: RV7-List: Quiet Drills-SAFETY WARNING > --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer > > Fellas, > > No hard feelings I hope. Just a little too much time > on my hands today I guess. I owe each of you a drink > at Osh. > > Ross > > > --- Rob Prior wrote: > > --> RV7-List message posted by: Rob Prior > > > > > > Ross Schlotthauer wrote: > > > --> RV7-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer > > > > > > > > The URL is > > > www.imagullablejackass.com. Please indicate your > > > available credit limit on the form. > > > > I've got as good a sense of humour as the next guy, > > but at the very > > least a smiley may have been in order at the end of > > your message... > > Calling the people (myself included) who "fell" for > > your little charade > > jackasses is a bit much. > > > > > Doesn't anyone even question the aerodynamic > > > ascillations from the nose wheel or the superior > > > structural integrity of the slider? > > > > Of course not. Those are the reasons i'm building a > > tailwheel slider > > myself. You mean they're not real? > > > > 8-) > > > > -RB4 > > > > > > > > Contributions > > any other > > Forums. > > > > latest messages. > > List members. > > > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV7-List.htm > > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv7-list > > http://www.matronics.com/archives > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > > > > > > >