Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:12 AM - Instruments for IFR (OAITX@AOL.com)
2. 09:29 AM - Re: Instruments for IFR (Dan Checkoway)
3. 09:35 AM - Re: Instruments for IFR (Dana Overall)
4. 11:33 AM - Re: EFIS & IFR (Sargentclt@cs.com)
5. 11:58 AM - Re: EFIS & IFR (Hedrington, Bret)
6. 03:54 PM - Re: EFIS & IFR (Jerry Carter)
7. 03:57 PM - Fw: EFIS & IFR (Jerry Carter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Instruments for IFR |
--> RV7-List message posted by: OAITX@aol.com
I, too, would like to find out what is real and what is not.....can anyone
quote or reference the regulations?
I don't care what an individual DAR says.......let's go to the regulations.
Bob Lake RV-7 QB
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Instruments for IFR |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Get out the good old FARs. Part 91.205 is pretty clear:
-----------------
(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and
equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section,
and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c)
of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment
appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.
(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:
(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight
attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with
the instrument requirements prescribed in Sec. 121.305(j) of this chapter;
and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through
flight attitudes of 80 degrees of pitch and 120 degrees of roll and
installed in accordance with Sec. 29.1303(g) of this chapter.
(4) Slip-skid indicator.
(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.
(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second
pointer or digital presentation.
(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.
(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).
(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).
-----------------
Nobody is going to "pull you over" for flying IFR with an EFIS that you
believe satisifies these requirements but they may not believe does.
It's my personal interpretation, and that of many others I've spoken to
about this, that the Dynon satisfies (3), (4), (5), (6), (8), and (9). Of
course I'm backing the Dynon up with conventional instruments (airspeed,
altimeter, VSI, turn coordinator, compass) for redundancy just to feel a bit
safer in the matter. But I have no doubt that my "no-AI, no-DG" panel
satisfies IFR equipment requirements.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <OAITX@AOL.com>
Subject: RV7-List: Instruments for IFR
> --> RV7-List message posted by: OAITX@aol.com
>
> I, too, would like to find out what is real and what is not.....can anyone
> quote or reference the regulations?
> I don't care what an individual DAR says.......let's go to the
regulations.
> Bob Lake RV-7 QB
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Instruments for IFR |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
Bob, there are several references to the regs in the cut and paste listed
below and the pdf file on Sam's website. There is absolutely no requirement
for TSO'd equipment on board for IFR in experimental aircraft. The only
thing you have to adhere to is the install of required equipment on board,
it doesn't have to be TSO'd. Once again, the pitot static check must be
current along with transponder if required and a owner installed IFR GPS
must have current data card/cards. Yes, a repairman certificate owner can
install a TSO'd IFR GPS and legally use the unit for IFR operations as long
as checks for accuracy are performed and documented in the logs. That's it,
it is very plain and very simple. I just hate to see erroneous information
from an individual DAR relied upon as the gospel. The regs are very black
and white on this issue.
>>>There is no requirement for instruments in an amateur-built aircraft to
>>>be TSOed, even when used for IFR flying. The builder/pilot must simply
>>>meet the requirements of FAR 91.205. The only instance when a TSOed unit
>>>must be used is in the case of an IFR GPS. For these installations, the
>>>guidance contained in advisory circular AC 20-138 must be followed. Of
>>>course, in order to use the aircraft under IFR, the transponder, encoder,
>>>and pitot/static tests must also be current.
Joe Norris
EAA Aviation Information Services
EAA Aviation Center, Oshkosh, WI
888-322-4636, extension 6806
jnorris@eaa.org<<<<<<
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/tvrvbg/_borders/IFR%20equipment.pdf
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY
RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
Add MSN 8 Internet Software to your existing Internet access and enjoy
Message 4
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--> RV7-List message posted by: Sargentclt@cs.com
I AM GOING WITH THE DYNON UNIT AND NO GYRO BACK-UP HOPEFULLY THE FSDO WILL APPROVE
THIS CONFIGURATION, ANY COMMENTS"Hedrington, Bret" <bhedrington@powersentry.com>
wrote:
>--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hedrington, Bret" <bhedrington@PowerSentry.com>
>
>I've been looking at this issue...Want Glass cockpit...
>
>If anyone finds a DAR that will sign off...I'd fly them up here...
>
>What I've been faced with is like Cirrus did in their IFR birds...Place the meatballs
in the dash as a backup for the glass..
>
>You then have the regular gyros there and the FAA/DAR can him and haw about the
other stuff all they want. But the panel meets the requirement without the Glass
and should be able to go IFR...
>
>Only problem...Is $'s....It is not cheap to do this...And room on the dash is
another possible concern.
>
>Bret
>N997RV
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Noel & Yoshie Simmons [mailto:noel@blueskyaviation.net]
>To: Rv-List@Matronics. Com; Rv9-List@Matronics. Com; Rv8-List@Matronics.
>Com; Rv7-List@Matronics. Com; Rv6-List@Matronics. Com
>Subject: RV7-List: EFIS & IFR
>
>
>--> RV7-List message posted by: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" <noel@blueskyaviation.net>
>
>It appears that these FAA regs alone are not enough. My FAA representative
>and our FAA DAR (who is a homebuilder, too!) has told me that it is not
>sufficient to follow all the rules; instead, an FAA rep or DAR needs to
>positively approve it. If the instrument avionics are not TSO'ed or
>equivalent, then they will not sign off on it. Period. Without the FAA
>positive approval, even if you do not violate any FAA regs, you cannot fly
>IFR.
>
>I think the FAA inspectors/DAR do not want to risk their jobs, and there is
>no specific instruction to them that non TSO'ed instruments are ok in
>experimentals, so they just refuse. If you can find one FAA inspector/DAR
>who is willing to sign off e.g., a bluemountainavionics EFIS for IFR use,
>then please let me know.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Noel Simmons
>
>
Message 5
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--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hedrington, Bret" <bhedrington@PowerSentry.com>
I'm not arguing the FAR's.....
But the argue is going to be with the DAR...They don't read the regs I think...But
they have their own opinion
The DAR's I've talked to say that they will not let a experimental glass cockpit
go for IFR...But maybe in the next year or so I can convince them of the errors
in their way....
Bret
N997RV
-----Original Message-----
From: Sargentclt@cs.com [mailto:Sargentclt@cs.com]
Subject: RE: RV7-List: EFIS & IFR
--> RV7-List message posted by: Sargentclt@cs.com
I AM GOING WITH THE DYNON UNIT AND NO GYRO BACK-UP HOPEFULLY THE FSDO WILL APPROVE
THIS CONFIGURATION, ANY COMMENTS"Hedrington, Bret" <bhedrington@powersentry.com>
wrote:
>--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hedrington, Bret" <bhedrington@PowerSentry.com>
>
>I've been looking at this issue...Want Glass cockpit...
>
>If anyone finds a DAR that will sign off...I'd fly them up here...
>
>What I've been faced with is like Cirrus did in their IFR birds...Place the meatballs
in the dash as a backup for the glass..
>
>You then have the regular gyros there and the FAA/DAR can him and haw about the
other stuff all they want. But the panel meets the requirement without the Glass
and should be able to go IFR...
>
>Only problem...Is $'s....It is not cheap to do this...And room on the dash is
another possible concern.
>
>Bret
>N997RV
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Noel & Yoshie Simmons [mailto:noel@blueskyaviation.net]
>To: Rv-List@Matronics. Com; Rv9-List@Matronics. Com; Rv8-List@Matronics.
>Com; Rv7-List@Matronics. Com; Rv6-List@Matronics. Com
>Subject: RV7-List: EFIS & IFR
>
>
>--> RV7-List message posted by: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" <noel@blueskyaviation.net>
>
>It appears that these FAA regs alone are not enough. My FAA representative
>and our FAA DAR (who is a homebuilder, too!) has told me that it is not
>sufficient to follow all the rules; instead, an FAA rep or DAR needs to
>positively approve it. If the instrument avionics are not TSO'ed or
>equivalent, then they will not sign off on it. Period. Without the FAA
>positive approval, even if you do not violate any FAA regs, you cannot fly
>IFR.
>
>I think the FAA inspectors/DAR do not want to risk their jobs, and there is
>no specific instruction to them that non TSO'ed instruments are ok in
>experimentals, so they just refuse. If you can find one FAA inspector/DAR
>who is willing to sign off e.g., a bluemountainavionics EFIS for IFR use,
>then please let me know.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Noel Simmons
>
>
Message 6
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--> RV7-List message posted by: Jerry Carter <jcarter8@midsouth.rr.com>
The DAR has nothing to say about whether your ship is IFR. Again,your
operating limitations will state that your aircraft is to be operated
day only, VFR unless equipped for night and\or IFR operation. You
could, for example, have your aircraft inspected, fly off the test
period and then decide to upgrade the avionics to IFR. YOU are
responsible for meeting the requirements for IFR operation. You would
only have to re-enter phase one testing for a period of time,
determined by you and documented in your log book. You will not need
another inspection....ever!
Jerry Carter
RV-8A
305 hrs
On Friday, September 26, 2003, at 01:57 PM, Hedrington, Bret wrote:
> --> RV7-List message posted by: "Hedrington, Bret"
> <bhedrington@PowerSentry.com>
>
> I'm not arguing the FAR's.....
>
> But the argue is going to be with the DAR...They don't read the regs I
> think...But they have their own opinion
>
> The DAR's I've talked to say that they will not let a experimental
> glass cockpit go for IFR...But maybe in the next year or so I can
> convince them of the errors in their way....
>
>
> Bret
> N997RV
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sargentclt@cs.com [mailto:Sargentclt@cs.com]
> To: rv7-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV7-List: EFIS & IFR
>
>
> --> RV7-List message posted by: Sargentclt@cs.com
>
> I AM GOING WITH THE DYNON UNIT AND NO GYRO BACK-UP HOPEFULLY THE FSDO
> WILL APPROVE THIS CONFIGURATION, ANY COMMENTS"Hedrington, Bret"
> <bhedrington@powersentry.com> wrote:
>
>> --> RV7-List message posted by: "Hedrington, Bret"
>> <bhedrington@PowerSentry.com>
>>
>> I've been looking at this issue...Want Glass cockpit...
>>
>> If anyone finds a DAR that will sign off...I'd fly them up here...
>>
>> What I've been faced with is like Cirrus did in their IFR
>> birds...Place the meatballs in the dash as a backup for the glass..
>>
>> You then have the regular gyros there and the FAA/DAR can him and haw
>> about the other stuff all they want. But the panel meets the
>> requirement without the Glass and should be able to go IFR...
>>
>> Only problem...Is $'s....It is not cheap to do this...And room on the
>> dash is another possible concern.
>>
>> Bret
>> N997RV
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Noel & Yoshie Simmons [mailto:noel@blueskyaviation.net]
>> To: Rv-List@Matronics. Com; Rv9-List@Matronics. Com;
>> Rv8-List@Matronics.
>> Com; Rv7-List@Matronics. Com; Rv6-List@Matronics. Com
>> Subject: RV7-List: EFIS & IFR
>>
>>
>> --> RV7-List message posted by: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons"
>> <noel@blueskyaviation.net>
>>
>> It appears that these FAA regs alone are not enough. My FAA
>> representative
>> and our FAA DAR (who is a homebuilder, too!) has told me that it is
>> not
>> sufficient to follow all the rules; instead, an FAA rep or DAR needs
>> to
>> positively approve it. If the instrument avionics are not TSO'ed or
>> equivalent, then they will not sign off on it. Period. Without the FAA
>> positive approval, even if you do not violate any FAA regs, you
>> cannot fly
>> IFR.
>>
>> I think the FAA inspectors/DAR do not want to risk their jobs, and
>> there is
>> no specific instruction to them that non TSO'ed instruments are ok in
>> experimentals, so they just refuse. If you can find one FAA
>> inspector/DAR
>> who is willing to sign off e.g., a bluemountainavionics EFIS for IFR
>> use,
>> then please let me know.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Noel Simmons
>>
>>
>
>
> _-
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> _-
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> >
>
>
Message 7
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--> RV7-List message posted by: Jerry Carter <jcarter8@midsouth.rr.com>
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Jerry Carter <rv8apilot@mac.com>
> Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:40:01 PM US/Central
> To: rv7-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV7-List: EFIS & IFR
>
>
> On Thursday, September 25, 2003, at 12:28 PM, Noel & Yoshie Simmons
> wrote:
>
>> --> RV7-List message posted by: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons"
>> <noel@blueskyaviation.net>
>>
>> It appears that these FAA regs alone are not enough. My FAA
>> representative
>> and our FAA DAR (who is a homebuilder, too!) has told me that it is
>> not
>> sufficient to follow all the rules; instead, an FAA rep or DAR needs
>> to
>> positively approve it. If the instrument avionics are not TSO'ed or
>> equivalent, then they will not sign off on it. Period. Without the
>> FAA
>> positive approval, even if you do not violate any FAA regs, you
>> cannot fly
>> IFR.
>>
> This is not correct. You can have your plane inspected by the DAR as a
> VFR ship, then later go back and install IFR avionics and certify it
> YOURSELF, without ever getting another inspection. If you have
> completed phase one testing, you will have to re-enter phase one after
> a "major change," but this does not require another visit by the DAR.
> Your operating limitations will state that your aircraft is approved
> for day, VFR only UNLESS it is equiped for night and\or IFR > operations.
>
> Jerry Carter
> RV-8A
> 305 hrs
>
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