Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:30 AM - Diesel engine for an RV-7 (springcanyon)
2. 08:59 AM - Re: Diesel engine for an RV-7 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
3. 09:45 AM - Re: Diesel engine for an RV-7 (Gary Dwinal)
4. 10:25 AM - Re: Diesel engine for an RV-7 (Gary Dwinal)
5. 10:45 AM - Re: Diesel engine for an RV-7 (Rob Prior (rv7))
6. 11:15 AM - Re: Diesel engine for an RV-7 (Gary Dwinal)
7. 11:28 AM - Re: Diesel engine for an RV-7 (Gary Dwinal)
8. 12:06 PM - Re: Diesel engine for an RV-7 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
9. 12:18 PM - Help..."Extra" holes in wing spar stub and F704 (Steve Noujaim)
10. 02:25 PM - Re: Diesel engine for an RV-7 (cgalley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Diesel engine for an RV-7 |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "springcanyon" <springcanyon@mymethow.com>
I am working on an RV-7 and am approaching the time when I need to know
which or what engine I am going to install. I love the idea of a diesel
engine. Since this is a major investment as well as one of the most
important parts of my airplane I would like some other opinions. I have
talked with Delta Hawk and their engine sounds good and looks good. The
thing that bothers me is the total lack of field experience with this
engine. Anyone have opinions about this?
Thanks,
Don Owens
springcanyon@mymethow.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Diesel engine for an RV-7 |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Any ...and I mean any water cooled engine out there will produce more
cooling drag than an aircooled one will.
Note a good aircooled Lycosaurus will do around 200mph on 10 GPH.
Similar fuel burn on a very good water cooled automotive conversion will
give less than 180mph.
It will still do 200mph but the fuel burn will get significant...I think
fuel burn is proportional to speed squared (or is that cubed?) and that
part of the curve will get pretty steep.
Not saying that drag can't be reduced (P51 Mustang style scoops and
optimised radiators) but it certainly won't be a bolt on package.
I hate to say it but about the best bet is a Lycoming...And I spent a
year trying to prove otherwise...I even fly behind a little Subaru in a
Zenair Zodiac....A total engine rebuild for a couple of grand is sure
attractive but I just can't have a slow plane anymore and to burn
another 3 to 4 GPH to make the speed I want gets to be a big bill over
2000 hours as well...
My 2 cents
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of springcanyon
Subject: RV7-List: Diesel engine for an RV-7
--> RV7-List message posted by: "springcanyon"
--> <springcanyon@mymethow.com>
I am working on an RV-7 and am approaching the time when I need to know
which or what engine I am going to install. I love the idea of a diesel
engine. Since this is a major investment as well as one of the most
important parts of my airplane I would like some other opinions. I have
talked with Delta Hawk and their engine sounds good and looks good. The
thing that bothers me is the total lack of field experience with this
engine. Anyone have opinions about this?
Thanks,
Don Owens
springcanyon@mymethow.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Diesel engine for an RV-7 |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Gary Dwinal <GDwinal@Fisherplows.com>
Not flying yet, but I have a GM V6 truck engine in my plane along with the
firewall forward package from Belted Air Power. The air intake is the
original size and the radiator is mounted on the firewall with the original
air exit openings. My engine (modestly modified) will produce around 225 HP
and should make the plane cruise comfortably in the 200MPH range and the
fuel burn should be no more than 10 GPM. Again, this is purely speculation
on my behalf, but after talking with several others that have gone the GM V6
route with the kit from BAP, I think the assumption that a liquid cooled
engine will always create more drag is controversial at best. There is a
reason Burt Rutan absolutely required one of the engines in his "non-stop
around the world airplane" to be liquid cooled!
Gary Dwinal
RV7A
-----Original Message-----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) [mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com]
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Diesel engine for an RV-7
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
--> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Any ...and I mean any water cooled engine out there will produce more
cooling drag than an aircooled one will.
Note a good aircooled Lycosaurus will do around 200mph on 10 GPH. Similar
fuel burn on a very good water cooled automotive conversion will give less
than 180mph.
It will still do 200mph but the fuel burn will get significant...I think
fuel burn is proportional to speed squared (or is that cubed?) and that part
of the curve will get pretty steep.
Not saying that drag can't be reduced (P51 Mustang style scoops and
optimised radiators) but it certainly won't be a bolt on package.
I hate to say it but about the best bet is a Lycoming...And I spent a year
trying to prove otherwise...I even fly behind a little Subaru in a Zenair
Zodiac....A total engine rebuild for a couple of grand is sure attractive
but I just can't have a slow plane anymore and to burn another 3 to 4 GPH to
make the speed I want gets to be a big bill over 2000 hours as well...
My 2 cents
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of springcanyon
Subject: RV7-List: Diesel engine for an RV-7
--> RV7-List message posted by: "springcanyon"
--> <springcanyon@mymethow.com>
I am working on an RV-7 and am approaching the time when I need to know
which or what engine I am going to install. I love the idea of a diesel
engine. Since this is a major investment as well as one of the most
important parts of my airplane I would like some other opinions. I have
talked with Delta Hawk and their engine sounds good and looks good. The
thing that bothers me is the total lack of field experience with this
engine. Anyone have opinions about this?
Thanks,
Don Owens
springcanyon@mymethow.com
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Diesel engine for an RV-7 |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Gary Dwinal <GDwinal@Fisherplows.com>
The only experience I have had with the Delta Hawk is a non flying running
demonstration at Osh Kosh and couple of years ago. The engine was extremely
noisy. It seemed to run very well and very smooth though. I do not know
what the fuel burn is for them.
Gary Dwinal
-----Original Message-----
From: springcanyon [mailto:springcanyon@mymethow.com]
Subject: RV7-List: Diesel engine for an RV-7
--> RV7-List message posted by: "springcanyon"
--> <springcanyon@mymethow.com>
I am working on an RV-7 and am approaching the time when I need to know
which or what engine I am going to install. I love the idea of a diesel
engine. Since this is a major investment as well as one of the most
important parts of my airplane I would like some other opinions. I have
talked with Delta Hawk and their engine sounds good and looks good. The
thing that bothers me is the total lack of field experience with this
engine. Anyone have opinions about this?
Thanks,
Don Owens
springcanyon@mymethow.com
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
NOTICE: The information contained in this communication is intended solely
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confidentiality protection under the law. If you are not a designated
recipient, you may not review, copy, or distribute this message. If you
receive this message in error, please notify the sender and destroy your
copy.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Fisher Engineering, a division of Douglas Dynamics, LLC
Message 5
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| Subject: | Diesel engine for an RV-7 |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca>
On 9:44:22 2005-02-23 Gary Dwinal <GDwinal@fisherplows.com> wrote:
> --> RV7-List message posted by: Gary Dwinal <GDwinal@Fisherplows.com>
> Not flying yet, but I have a GM V6 truck engine in my plane along
> with the firewall forward package from Belted Air Power. The air
> intake is the original size and the radiator is mounted on the
> firewall with the original air exit openings...I think the assumption
> that a liquid cooled engine will always create more drag is controversial
> at best.
The fact that the size of the inlet and exit openings is the same doesn't
mean much on it's own. If you just put a radiator between the inlet and
exit like on your conversion, and don't put one there on a Lycoming
installation, the drag will be higher on the engine with the radiator due
to the back pressure it generates as air slows down to flow through the
rad.
It is possible to control the air flow to and from the rad with
well-designed expansion (upstream) and compression (downstream) chambers
around the rad. I seem to recall reading that on a P-51 in the right
cruise configuration you could realize a small amount of *thrust* from this
arrangement. But that's some finicky engineering to get the cooling to
that point.
I guess what i'm saying is that if you have an airplane that's designed
from the start to use a water-cooled engine, you can design the airplane to
take advantage of the water cooling and to realize the least drag. But
when you have an airplane that's designed for an air-cooled engine, trying
to retrofit a water-cooled one later isn't likely to be as efficient.
> My engine (modestly
> modified) will produce around 225 HP and should make the plane cruise
> comfortably in the 200MPH range and the fuel burn should be no more
> than 10 GPM.
As the original poster pointed out, 200MPH can be achieved with a 200HP
Lycoming, so it sounds like you need an extra 25HP to get there with your
conversion. Not saying the fuel burn will be higher as a result, but it's
quite likely.
-Rob
(Considering the Renesis Rotary engine for my -7, so i'm really not against
auto-conversions... really!)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Diesel engine for an RV-7 |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Gary Dwinal <GDwinal@Fisherplows.com>
The fact that the size of the inlet and exit openings is the same doesn't
mean much on it's own. If you just put a radiator between the inlet and
exit like on your conversion, and don't put one there on a Lycoming
installation, the drag will be higher on the engine with the radiator due to
the back pressure it generates as air slows down to flow through the rad.
It is possible to control the air flow to and from the rad with
well-designed expansion (upstream) and compression (downstream) chambers
around the rad. I seem to recall reading that on a P-51 in the right cruise
configuration you could realize a small amount of *thrust* from this
arrangement. But that's some finicky engineering to get the cooling to that
point.
I guess what i'm saying is that if you have an airplane that's designed from
the start to use a water-cooled engine, you can design the airplane to take
advantage of the water cooling and to realize the least drag. But when you
have an airplane that's designed for an air-cooled engine, trying to
retrofit a water-cooled one later isn't likely to be as efficient.
> My engine (modestly
> modified) will produce around 225 HP and should make the plane cruise
> comfortably in the 200MPH range and the fuel burn should be no more
> than 10 GPM.
As the original poster pointed out, 200MPH can be achieved with a 200HP
Lycoming, so it sounds like you need an extra 25HP to get there with your
conversion. Not saying the fuel burn will be higher as a result, but it's
quite likely.
-Rob
(Considering the Renesis Rotary engine for my -7, so i'm really not against
auto-conversions... really!)
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
NOTICE: The information contained in this communication is intended solely
for use by the designated recipient(s). This communication may also contain
confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to
confidentiality protection under the law. If you are not a designated
recipient, you may not review, copy, or distribute this message. If you
receive this message in error, please notify the sender and destroy your
copy.
Thank you for your cooperation.
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Diesel engine for an RV-7 |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Gary Dwinal <GDwinal@Fisherplows.com>
>As the original poster pointed out, 200MPH can be achieved with a 200HP
Lycoming, so it sounds >like you need an extra 25HP to get there with your
conversion. Not saying the fuel burn will >be higher as a result, but it's
quite likely.
>-Rob
Rob - I pretty much agree with everything you said - but,
What has not been said on this thread is the highly documented fact that
liquid cooled engines do not require nearly the same amount of fuel as air
cooled engines do per BHP. Air cooled engines require additional fuel to
help cool the engine. I do not believe my 225HP liquid cooled engine will
require 10GPH to operate at 200 MPH like the 200HP Lycoming does. I have a
brand new lycoming 0-360 in my Cherokee and it requires a lot more than 10
GPM at only 155 MPH. But then that airplane is a slug aerodynamically when
compared to the RV's. This is an argument that will go on for years and
years, but Jess Meyers has been flying his GM V6 powered RV6 for about 9
years now with only routine maintenance and I for one am very impressed with
that statistic. Plus I am old hot rod guy that has built many, many race
car and hot rod engines and I have always wanted to build my own car type
engine for an airplane!
Gary Dwinal
(Considering the Renesis Rotary engine for my -7, so i'm really not against
auto-conversions... really!)
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NOTICE: The information contained in this communication is intended solely
for use by the designated recipient(s). This communication may also contain
confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to
confidentiality protection under the law. If you are not a designated
recipient, you may not review, copy, or distribute this message. If you
receive this message in error, please notify the sender and destroy your
copy.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Fisher Engineering, a division of Douglas Dynamics, LLC
Message 8
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| Subject: | Diesel engine for an RV-7 |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
All I can tell you is that when I finally nailed down some builders of
the Eggenfelner Subaru FWF the numbers were as I described.
I honestly think it MAY be possible to design a cooling system (pressure
recovery ducts etc) that will produce close to the same drag as an air
cooled motor, but remember you got 2 to 3 times the flowrate of air in a
water cooled motor than an aircooled unit (in theory)...If true thats a
lot more drag.
One guy built two identical RV 7's the soob did 178mph at 10 GPH and the
Lyc did 200mph.
Once again both our perpestives are purely speculative and builders have
been known to stretch the truth...Heaven forbid!...:)
I wonder how Burt Ruan designed the cooling system for his motor..Is it
not possible it was only designed for say 75% power?...I.e full power on
take off but throttle back before it overheated? He could have
significantly have reduced the cooling drag that way too. Liquid cooled
motors are more evently cooled and can therefore be built with tighter
tolerances which makes them more efficient and reliable. My guess is
Burt was looking for really good economy cruise at reduced power with
exceptional reliabitlity.
Best of luck with your project.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Dwinal
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Diesel engine for an RV-7
--> RV7-List message posted by: Gary Dwinal <GDwinal@Fisherplows.com>
Not flying yet, but I have a GM V6 truck engine in my plane along with
the firewall forward package from Belted Air Power. The air intake is
the original size and the radiator is mounted on the firewall with the
original air exit openings. My engine (modestly modified) will produce
around 225 HP and should make the plane cruise comfortably in the 200MPH
range and the fuel burn should be no more than 10 GPM. Again, this is
purely speculation on my behalf, but after talking with several others
that have gone the GM V6 route with the kit from BAP, I think the
assumption that a liquid cooled engine will always create more drag is
controversial at best. There is a reason Burt Rutan absolutely required
one of the engines in his "non-stop around the world airplane" to be
liquid cooled!
Gary Dwinal
RV7A
-----Original Message-----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) [mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com]
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Diesel engine for an RV-7
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
--> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Any ...and I mean any water cooled engine out there will produce more
cooling drag than an aircooled one will.
Note a good aircooled Lycosaurus will do around 200mph on 10 GPH.
Similar
fuel burn on a very good water cooled automotive conversion will give
less
than 180mph.
It will still do 200mph but the fuel burn will get significant...I think
fuel burn is proportional to speed squared (or is that cubed?) and that
part
of the curve will get pretty steep.
Not saying that drag can't be reduced (P51 Mustang style scoops and
optimised radiators) but it certainly won't be a bolt on package.
I hate to say it but about the best bet is a Lycoming...And I spent a
year
trying to prove otherwise...I even fly behind a little Subaru in a
Zenair
Zodiac....A total engine rebuild for a couple of grand is sure
attractive
but I just can't have a slow plane anymore and to burn another 3 to 4
GPH to
make the speed I want gets to be a big bill over 2000 hours as well...
My 2 cents
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of springcanyon
Subject: RV7-List: Diesel engine for an RV-7
--> RV7-List message posted by: "springcanyon"
--> <springcanyon@mymethow.com>
I am working on an RV-7 and am approaching the time when I need to know
which or what engine I am going to install. I love the idea of a diesel
engine. Since this is a major investment as well as one of the most
important parts of my airplane I would like some other opinions. I have
talked with Delta Hawk and their engine sounds good and looks good. The
thing that bothers me is the total lack of field experience with this
engine. Anyone have opinions about this?
Thanks,
Don Owens
springcanyon@mymethow.com
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
NOTICE: The information contained in this communication is intended
solely
for use by the designated recipient(s). This communication may also
contain
confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to
confidentiality protection under the law. If you are not a designated
recipient, you may not review, copy, or distribute this message. If you
receive this message in error, please notify the sender and destroy your
copy.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Fisher Engineering, a division of Douglas Dynamics, LLC
Message 9
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| Subject: | Help..."Extra" holes in wing spar stub and F704 |
pieces?
--> RV7-List message posted by: Steve Noujaim <nouj@compuserve.com> pieces?
Hi
They are may be either for tooling or for that extra wiring I reckon. You
may wish to check out Dan Checkoways site rvproject.com he has loads of
pictures and its full of handy hints
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Diesel engine for an RV-7 |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Basic reason for the water cooled Continental on the Voyager was it was
FREE! and they threw in a prop as well.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Dwinal" <GDwinal@fisherplows.com>
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Diesel engine for an RV-7
> --> RV7-List message posted by: Gary Dwinal <GDwinal@Fisherplows.com>
>
> Not flying yet, but I have a GM V6 truck engine in my plane along with the
> firewall forward package from Belted Air Power. The air intake is the
> original size and the radiator is mounted on the firewall with the
> original
> air exit openings. My engine (modestly modified) will produce around 225
> HP
> and should make the plane cruise comfortably in the 200MPH range and the
> fuel burn should be no more than 10 GPM. Again, this is purely
> speculation
> on my behalf, but after talking with several others that have gone the GM
> V6
> route with the kit from BAP, I think the assumption that a liquid cooled
> engine will always create more drag is controversial at best. There is a
> reason Burt Rutan absolutely required one of the engines in his "non-stop
> around the world airplane" to be liquid cooled!
>
> Gary Dwinal
> RV7A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) [mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com]
> To: rv7-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV7-List: Diesel engine for an RV-7
>
>
> --> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> --> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Any ...and I mean any water cooled engine out there will produce more
> cooling drag than an aircooled one will.
>
> Note a good aircooled Lycosaurus will do around 200mph on 10 GPH. Similar
> fuel burn on a very good water cooled automotive conversion will give less
> than 180mph.
>
> It will still do 200mph but the fuel burn will get significant...I think
> fuel burn is proportional to speed squared (or is that cubed?) and that
> part
> of the curve will get pretty steep.
>
> Not saying that drag can't be reduced (P51 Mustang style scoops and
> optimised radiators) but it certainly won't be a bolt on package.
>
> I hate to say it but about the best bet is a Lycoming...And I spent a year
> trying to prove otherwise...I even fly behind a little Subaru in a Zenair
> Zodiac....A total engine rebuild for a couple of grand is sure attractive
> but I just can't have a slow plane anymore and to burn another 3 to 4 GPH
> to
> make the speed I want gets to be a big bill over 2000 hours as well...
>
> My 2 cents
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of springcanyon
> To: rv7-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV7-List: Diesel engine for an RV-7
>
> --> RV7-List message posted by: "springcanyon"
> --> <springcanyon@mymethow.com>
>
> I am working on an RV-7 and am approaching the time when I need to know
> which or what engine I am going to install. I love the idea of a diesel
> engine. Since this is a major investment as well as one of the most
> important parts of my airplane I would like some other opinions. I have
> talked with Delta Hawk and their engine sounds good and looks good. The
> thing that bothers me is the total lack of field experience with this
> engine. Anyone have opinions about this?
>
> Thanks,
> Don Owens
> springcanyon@mymethow.com
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
>
>
> NOTICE: The information contained in this communication is intended
> solely
> for use by the designated recipient(s). This communication may also
> contain
> confidential or proprietary information and may be subject to
> confidentiality protection under the law. If you are not a designated
> recipient, you may not review, copy, or distribute this message. If you
> receive this message in error, please notify the sender and destroy your
> copy.
> Thank you for your cooperation.
> Fisher Engineering, a division of Douglas Dynamics, LLC
>
>
>
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