Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:20 AM - Re: ping (Jamie Painter)
2. 08:40 AM - Re: wire gauge drill bits (Bob Collins)
3. 09:29 AM - Qbuilder woes (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
4. 10:21 AM - Re: wire gauge drill bits (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
5. 10:26 AM - Re: ping (Jamie Painter)
6. 10:39 AM - Re: wire gauge drill bits (Mark Grieve)
7. 11:49 AM - Re: wire gauge drill bits (GMC)
8. 12:23 PM - Re: Qbuilder woes (Dwight Frye)
9. 01:17 PM - Re: wire gauge drill bits (TylerB)
10. 02:10 PM - Re: wire gauge drill bits (Herron, Al)
11. 02:14 PM - Re: wire gauge drill bits (bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net)
12. 09:55 PM - Drills vs reamers (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
Message 1
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--> RV7-List message posted by: "Jamie Painter" <jdpainter@jpainter.org>
Hey Don:
Where are you located?
I live in Suwanee, fly out of LZU. I'm building a -7A and am now into the aft
fuselage. Are you invovled in an EAA chapter? I'm chairman of the Board of
Directors for 690 at LZU. We have 6 RV's in our 'Sport Aviation Complex' and
many more on the way. Let's see...I'm probably forgetting some...but we have
my -7A, a -7, two -8's and two -9's currently under construction. Our chapter
is a great way to meet RV'ers. See my .sig for my website.
Good luck on your project.
- Jamie
> Ping to all active RV projects in the Atlanta area. If you're interested in
> networking locally, please reply.
>
> Don Hall
> N517DG
> RV7 - empennage
> http://donka.net/rv7project.html
--
Jamie D. Painter
RV-7A fuselage N622JP (reserved)
http://rv.jpainter.org
Message 2
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| Subject: | wire gauge drill bits |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
Find a hardware store that serves contractors (especially electrical) and
construction folks and they will have the drill bits.
> I'm curious whether anyone is knows if any brick and mortar hardware
stores
> sell drill bits in wire gauge sizes. I was surprised that Home Depot
didn't
> stock such bits. I ended up ordering online from Cummins.
Message 3
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--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Morning all,
A note of caution for you all...in other words don't do what I did!
The QB kit I find lulls you into a false sense of security in that one
tends to ASSUME all the holes are in the right place...When it came to
the engine mount I found the pilot holes they conveniently drill in the
4 corners firewall are not THAT convenient.
I can feel you cringing as I write this...YUP I opened them up to size
without having the engine mount in place...Even though the instructions
tell you the reason the holes are undersized is to allow for error in
hole placement.
It turned out the top holes were perfect (thankfully) and had I just
drilled these out to size, hung the mount and drilled the 4 bottom holes
thru the engine mount life would have been good.
But no,I just blindly opened them all up to size without the mount in
place...Arrrgh!
I then had to drill out the rivets holding the bottom corner weldments
and the angle that runs vertically btween the top and bottom weldments
in order to get the bottom ones out.
As the weldments are match drilled to the airframe it looked just as
easy to stip the paint off, weld a 1/8th thick 4130 plate over the
3/8ths holes and repaint....Plus it saved the cost and waiting for the
new parts.
Which is what I did and I will rivet the weldments back in the fuse this
evening....And then drill the lower mount holes like I should have done
in the first place!
In the end about 4 hours work total that had absolutly no need to be
done if I had been more careful...The joke of it was I would NEVER have
done this on my previous airplane cus absolutly nothing was pre-drilled.
Maybe I now only saved 996 hours vs building a slow build kit...:)
Live and learn I hope!
Frank
Message 4
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| Subject: | wire gauge drill bits |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I bought a bunch of #30 and #40bits from the one of the large internet
dealers (work out to about a buck per bit with shipping) and the Harbor
Freight 115 pc set for all the other sizes.
Incidently...Am I the only one that went thru about 4 bits to drill the
holes in the axles for the cotter pins?
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Collins
Subject: RE: RV7-List: wire gauge drill bits
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
Find a hardware store that serves contractors (especially electrical)
and construction folks and they will have the drill bits.
> I'm curious whether anyone is knows if any brick and mortar hardware
stores
> sell drill bits in wire gauge sizes. I was surprised that Home Depot
didn't
> stock such bits. I ended up ordering online from Cummins.
Message 5
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--> RV7-List message posted by: "Jamie Painter" <jdpainter@jpainter.org>
Sorry folks...that was meant to be private...not to the list.
Do not archive.
> --> RV7-List message posted by: "Jamie Painter" <jdpainter@jpainter.org>
>
>
> Hey Don:
>
> Where are you located?
>
> I live in Suwanee, fly out of LZU. I'm building a -7A and am now into the aft
> fuselage. Are you invovled in an EAA chapter? I'm chairman of the Board of
> Directors for 690 at LZU. We have 6 RV's in our 'Sport Aviation Complex' and
> many more on the way. Let's see...I'm probably forgetting some...but we have
> my -7A, a -7, two -8's and two -9's currently under construction. Our chapter
> is a great way to meet RV'ers. See my .sig for my website.
>
> Good luck on your project.
>
> - Jamie
>
>> Ping to all active RV projects in the Atlanta area. If you're interested in
>> networking locally, please reply.
>>
>> Don Hall
>> N517DG
>> RV7 - empennage
>> http://donka.net/rv7project.html
>
> --
> Jamie D. Painter
> RV-7A fuselage N622JP (reserved)
> http://rv.jpainter.org
>
>
--
Jamie D. Painter
RV-7A fuselage N622JP (reserved)
http://rv.jpainter.org
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: wire gauge drill bits |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Mark Grieve <mark@macomb.com>
Don,
I guess that drill bits are classified as Tools and that is why they
wouldn't be included in the empennage kit.
My local (Ace) hardware store can get number drills in about 3 days. You
don't really need the complete set but I have tool envy knowing that you
have one. Out of 150 bits you will use about 10 of them. BTW, a #60
works well for drilling a hole in a fingernail but we need to start a
new thread for that discussion. My suggestion is that you order 6 each
of #30 and #40. You will break a couple and it is nice to have spares.
Also, you can have two people drilling holes at once. I like using a
cordless for enlarging holes, not as noisy and no hose to deal with. Air
drill for removing bad rivets works better than cordless. Your own
preferences will come with experience.
There are many fine companies to order tools from including Avery,
Brown, Cleveland, Wicks, Aircraft Spruce, The Yard Store and my personal
favorite Airparts Inc. Check them out on the Internet and make a
shopping list. The UPS person will be wearing a path to your door.
Happy building
7 empennage
Mark
Do not archive
Don Hall wrote:
>--> RV7-List message posted by: "Don Hall" <dhall@donka.net>
>
>I bought a "rv empennage tool kit", which supposedly has all you *need* to
>build the tail. (Like all you need to build a house is a hammer and saw.)
>I was pretty disappointed with the kit when I immediately ran into
>instructions calling for #12 and #19 drill bits. Not in the kit, and
>apparently not at your average hardware store.
>
>I'm curious whether anyone is knows if any brick and mortar hardware stores
>sell drill bits in wire gauge sizes. I was surprised that Home Depot didn't
>stock such bits. I ended up ordering online from Cummins.
>
>I've already ordered this:
>http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,621.html
>$49.99 USD / Each
>115pc High Speed Steel Titanium Coated Drill Bit Set
>Power Tools / Drills / Drill Bits & Accessories
>High speed titanium coated drill bits
>60 pc. wire guage bits numbered 1 to 60
>26 pc. lettered bits (A-Z)
>29 pc. fractional bits 1/16" to 1/2" in 1/64" increments
>One metal index box
>
>Interestingly, Sears had this
>http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&p
>id=00967115000
>$219.99
>Craftsman 115 pc. Drill Bit Set, High Speed Steel, Black Oxide Twist
>Sears item #00967115000 Mfr. model #67115
>These high speed steel bits are hardened, heat-treated and tempered for
>long-lasting strength. Precision-ground process ensures accurate geometry
>and hole size, and fast material removal. Learn more
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: wire gauge drill bits |
--> RV7-List message posted by: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
Bob Collins wrote:
>--> RV7-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
>Find a hardware store that serves contractors (especially electrical) and
>construction folks and they will have the drill bits.
>
>
>
One last point on drill sizes - the plans call-out for a .311 drill bit
to match drill the gear legs to the gear mount box on my RV7A did not
show up on any of my conversion charts and that size turned out to be a
custom Metric drill bit size 7.9MM. Cost me $8 Canadian from industrial
supply place to make those holes 1.5 thousands smaller than the optional
5/16 size.
Cheers,
George in Langley BC
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Qbuilder woes |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
On Mon May 23 12:04:15 2005, "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" wrote :
>[ ... snip ... ]
>A note of caution for you all...in other words don't do what I did!
>[ ... snip ... ]
>Live and learn I hope!
Thanks for the warning! You are right, it should be obvious from what is
said about the hole placement ... but it is all to easy to think that all
the pre-punched holes are "perfect".
Sometimes it takes guts (for me, at least) to share a mistake (particularly
if you feel it was a really bone-headed one!). But sharing these sorts of
mistakes serve as good reminders to those of us who have yet to get to that
part of the project. I, for one, thank all of you who have been willing to
share your various mis-steps. :)
-- Dwight
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: wire gauge drill bits |
--> RV7-List message posted by: TylerB <tylerii@InfoAve.Net>
I read with great interest this thread and felt that a reply would now
be necessary. I just don't understand the difference between a drilled
hole that is drilled with the .311 dia bit vs the hole drilled with a
.3125 (5/16) bit when the standard tolerance for a drilled hole made
using a standard twist drill bit is + or - .005. this is the tolerance
listed for drilled holes in aluminum in both the Reference Manual for
Mechanical Engineers, and the ASTM Standards Manual
Tyler Bryant N442TJ
GMC wrote:
>--> RV7-List message posted by: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
>
>Bob Collins wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> RV7-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>>
>>Find a hardware store that serves contractors (especially electrical) and
>>construction folks and they will have the drill bits.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>One last point on drill sizes - the plans call-out for a .311 drill bit
>to match drill the gear legs to the gear mount box on my RV7A did not
>show up on any of my conversion charts and that size turned out to be a
>custom Metric drill bit size 7.9MM. Cost me $8 Canadian from industrial
>supply place to make those holes 1.5 thousands smaller than the optional
>5/16 size.
>
>Cheers,
>George in Langley BC
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | wire gauge drill bits |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Herron, Al" <Al.Herron@Aerojet.com>
I picked up a set of numbered drill bits from Costco recently (this was in
Northern California) for about $40 US. Size ranged from very small (#60?)
up to about 1/2-inch in single-number increments, came in a nice metal case
with all the bits labeled both in index numbers and decimal equivalents.
Packaging claimed to be titanium bits, I was skeptical at that price but
they turned out to be very nice bits. The box alone was probably worth the
price.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Grieve
Subject: Re: RV7-List: wire gauge drill bits
--> RV7-List message posted by: Mark Grieve <mark@macomb.com>
Don,
I guess that drill bits are classified as Tools and that is why they
wouldn't be included in the empennage kit.
My local (Ace) hardware store can get number drills in about 3 days. You
don't really need the complete set but I have tool envy knowing that you
have one. Out of 150 bits you will use about 10 of them. BTW, a #60
works well for drilling a hole in a fingernail but we need to start a
new thread for that discussion. My suggestion is that you order 6 each
of #30 and #40. You will break a couple and it is nice to have spares.
Also, you can have two people drilling holes at once. I like using a
cordless for enlarging holes, not as noisy and no hose to deal with. Air
drill for removing bad rivets works better than cordless. Your own
preferences will come with experience.
There are many fine companies to order tools from including Avery,
Brown, Cleveland, Wicks, Aircraft Spruce, The Yard Store and my personal
favorite Airparts Inc. Check them out on the Internet and make a
shopping list. The UPS person will be wearing a path to your door.
Happy building
7 empennage
Mark
Do not archive
Don Hall wrote:
>--> RV7-List message posted by: "Don Hall" <dhall@donka.net>
>
>I bought a "rv empennage tool kit", which supposedly has all you *need* to
>build the tail. (Like all you need to build a house is a hammer and saw.)
>I was pretty disappointed with the kit when I immediately ran into
>instructions calling for #12 and #19 drill bits. Not in the kit, and
>apparently not at your average hardware store.
>
>I'm curious whether anyone is knows if any brick and mortar hardware stores
>sell drill bits in wire gauge sizes. I was surprised that Home Depot
didn't
>stock such bits. I ended up ordering online from Cummins.
>
>I've already ordered this:
>http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,621.html
>$49.99 USD / Each
>115pc High Speed Steel Titanium Coated Drill Bit Set
>Power Tools / Drills / Drill Bits & Accessories
>High speed titanium coated drill bits
>60 pc. wire guage bits numbered 1 to 60
>26 pc. lettered bits (A-Z)
>29 pc. fractional bits 1/16" to 1/2" in 1/64" increments
>One metal index box
>
>Interestingly, Sears had this
>http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&
p
>id=00967115000
>$219.99
>Craftsman 115 pc. Drill Bit Set, High Speed Steel, Black Oxide Twist
>Sears item #00967115000 Mfr. model #67115
>These high speed steel bits are hardened, heat-treated and tempered for
>long-lasting strength. Precision-ground process ensures accurate geometry
>and hole size, and fast material removal. Learn more
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: wire gauge drill bits |
--> RV7-List message posted by: bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net
One of the things that is readily apparent by leafing through tool catalogs is
how much and how often one buys tools at the beginning of construction. You know,
you've got a $1500 emp and these tool "kits" make it appear as though $800
will cover it (you have to love those little bags with 10 clecos for yucks) and
it's simply not true.
You have to plan on spending $2,000-$3,000 for tools at the beginning of the project
all the way through to a little after wing construction. By then, at least
I've found on a VERY slow build, you've probably got most of the tools you
need.
The most urgent need, it seems to me, is clecos. Order 50 every time you submit
an order for something else. I have two-gallon mill jugs full of 3/32 clecos
(silver) and that's about how many you'll need when you get to the wings and fuse
while still able to cleco every other or every third hole.
Drill bits. Again, have 5-10 of the two major sizes always on hand.... #30 and
#40..and one 6" and one "12 of each. I bought the #12 from Avery when I started
on the HS and still have it. I bought a #10 for some part (I don't remember,
it was way back on the EMP) from Ace and I've used it one time. I bought the
cheapo Harbor Freight drill kit and that's where the #19 comes from for me.
I would also buy a couple of #41. It's easier to drill out 3/32 rivets using a
#41 without enlarging the hole than it is with a #40.
But anyway, in a way I wish those tool companies would be a little more..... umm...
realistic when they present these "kits" to new builders.
Bob Collins
Fuselage
do not archive
One of the things that is readily apparent by leafing through tool catalogs is
how much and how often one buys tools at the beginning of construction. You know,
you've got a $1500 emp and these tool "kits" make it appear as though $800
will cover it (you have to love those little bags with 10 clecos for yucks) and
it's simply not true.
You have to plan on spending $2,000-$3,000 for tools at the beginning of the project
all the way through to a little after wing construction. By then, at least
I've found on a VERY slow build, you've probably got most of the tools you
need.
The most urgent need, it seems to me, is clecos. Order 50 every time you submit
an order for something else. I have two-gallon mill jugs full of 3/32 clecos
(silver) and that's about how many you'll need when you get to the wings and fuse
while still able to cleco every other or every third hole.
Drill bits. Again, have 5-10 of the two major sizes always on hand.... #30 and
#40..and one 6" and one "12 of each. I bought the #12 from Avery when I started
on the HS and still have it. I bought a #10 for some part (I don't remember,
it was way back on the EMP) from Ace and I've used it one time. I bought the
cheapo Harbor Freight drill kit and that's where the #19 comes from for me.
I would also buy a couple of #41. It's easier to drill out 3/32 rivets using a
#41 without enlarging the hole than it is with a #40.
But anyway, in a way I wish those tool companies would be a little more..... umm...
realistic when they present these "kits" to new builders.
Bob Collins
Fuselage
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Drills vs reamers |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
That's easy...When I went to drill one of my weldments with a drill bit
it was jumping around a bit and did not exactly give the most pretty
hole I have ever seen....Kinda hard to hold everything in line with a
relatively large drill bit and the drill wants to remove too much metal
too quickly
I finished the hole off with 3120 reamer and it was a much better
finish...I would have bought a new weldment except I had a perfect hole
on one side and finally decided the not quite so good hole was not going
to be a problem operationally. Reamers remove much less metal and the
amount they remove depends on how hard you push on them....Actually I
pull mine through the gear legs as it helps keep everything lined up
I did have a fleeting thought about weling a plate over it and
re-drilling...But as I said it will be OK...just not perfect.
Bottom line, when the plans say "ream"...I borrow a reamer from work and
make life a lot less stressful..:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TylerB
Subject: Re: RV7-List: wire gauge drill bits
--> RV7-List message posted by: TylerB <tylerii@InfoAve.Net>
I read with great interest this thread and felt that a reply would now
be necessary. I just don't understand the difference between a drilled
hole that is drilled with the .311 dia bit vs the hole drilled with a
.3125 (5/16) bit when the standard tolerance for a drilled hole made
using a standard twist drill bit is + or - .005. this is the tolerance
listed for drilled holes in aluminum in both the Reference Manual for
Mechanical Engineers, and the ASTM Standards Manual
Tyler Bryant N442TJ
GMC wrote:
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