---------------------------------------------------------- RV7-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/10/05: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:09 AM - 5 point harness (Cliff Lotter) 2. 08:45 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Brian Meyette) 3. 09:11 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Walter Tondu) 4. 09:25 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Dan Checkoway) 5. 09:41 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Konrad L. Werner) 6. 10:22 AM - Re: 5 point harness (GMC) 7. 10:28 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Walter Tondu) 8. 10:49 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 10:52 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Dan Checkoway) 10. 11:04 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Dwight Frye) 11. 11:04 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Stein Bruch) 12. 11:27 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Walter Tondu) 13. 11:30 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Norman Younie) 14. 11:33 AM - Re: 5 point harness (DuWaine Emmons) 15. 11:37 AM - Re: 5 point harness (Walter Tondu) 16. 12:04 PM - Re: 5 point harness (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 17. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: 5 point harness () 18. 12:47 PM - Re: 5 point harness (Norman Younie) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:14 AM PST US From: "Cliff Lotter" Subject: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: "Cliff Lotter" Hi all How do I fit the crotch strap for a 5 point harness to the RV7? There are pre cut holes in the correct position but no indication of how to fit, in fact the pre-cup holes are not even indicated in the plans. Regards Cliff lotter do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:45 AM PST US From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV7-List: 5 point harness clamav-milter version 0.80j on cassiopeia --> RV7-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette" I believe the crotch strap kit comes with a drawing. Try looking here & see if any of it helps: http://brian76.mystarband.net/FuselageAug03.htm#aug24 You might also check Dan Checkoway's site and Walter Tondu's http://www.rv7-a.com/ http://www.rvproject.com/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Cliff Lotter Subject: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: "Cliff Lotter" Hi all How do I fit the crotch strap for a 5 point harness to the RV7? There are pre cut holes in the correct position but no indication of how to fit, in fact the pre-cup holes are not even indicated in the plans. Regards Cliff lotter do not archive -- -- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:29 AM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 06/10 4:08, Cliff Lotter wrote: > How do I fit the crotch strap for a 5 point harness to the RV7? There are pre cut holes in the correct position but no indication of how to fit, in fact the pre-cup holes are not even indicated in the plans. Order Vans 5pt harness installation kit. It's a seperate order. Comes with instructions and plans. Just be aware the vans crotch strap thickness at the mounting point is different from other seat belt manufacturers like team rocket. And the bolt size is also different. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:39 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" I don't have a 5-point system (I have Van's simple cheap lightweight 4-point). The 5-point is an uncomfortable waste of weight & cost (imho). Not worth it unless you have inverted OIL *and* FUEL *and* you do lots of sustained inverted. Otherwise why bother? )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Meyette" Subject: RE: RV7-List: 5 point harness > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette" > > I believe the crotch strap kit comes with a drawing. Try looking here & see > if any of it helps: > > http://brian76.mystarband.net/FuselageAug03.htm#aug24 > > You might also check Dan Checkoway's site and Walter Tondu's > > http://www.rv7-a.com/ > > http://www.rvproject.com/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Cliff Lotter > To: rv7-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV7-List: 5 point harness > > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Cliff Lotter" > > Hi all > How do I fit the crotch strap for a 5 point harness to the RV7? There are > pre cut holes in the correct position but no indication of how to fit, in > fact the pre-cup holes are not even indicated in the plans. > Regards > Cliff lotter > do not archive > > > -- > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:34 AM PST US From: "Konrad L. Werner" Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: "Konrad L. Werner" Re: Otherwise why bother? Perhaps to prevent submarining in the 4-point harness in a forward impact scenario. Just a thought in case of a possible unplanned flight event. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Checkoway To: rv7-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 10:25 AM Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" I don't have a 5-point system (I have Van's simple cheap lightweight 4-point). The 5-point is an uncomfortable waste of weight & cost (imho). Not worth it unless you have inverted OIL *and* FUEL *and* you do lots of sustained inverted. Otherwise why bother? )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Meyette" To: Subject: RE: RV7-List: 5 point harness > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette" > > I believe the crotch strap kit comes with a drawing. Try looking here & see > if any of it helps: > > http://brian76.mystarband.net/FuselageAug03.htm#aug24 > > You might also check Dan Checkoway's site and Walter Tondu's > > http://www.rv7-a.com/ > > http://www.rvproject.com/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Cliff Lotter > To: rv7-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV7-List: 5 point harness > > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Cliff Lotter" > > Hi all > How do I fit the crotch strap for a 5 point harness to the RV7? There are > pre cut holes in the correct position but no indication of how to fit, in > fact the pre-cup holes are not even indicated in the plans. > Regards > Cliff lotter > do not archive > > > -- > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:22 AM PST US From: GMC Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: GMC Cliff Lotter wrote: >--> RV7-List message posted by: "Cliff Lotter" > >Hi all >How do I fit the crotch strap for a 5 point harness to the RV7? There are pre cut holes in the correct position but no indication of how to fit, in fact the pre-cup holes are not even indicated in the plans. >Regards >Cliff lotter >do not archive > > >Hi Cliff > > Vans sells an attachment kit, I believe it is about $27. After looking at the kit I decided to do it myself as I had done previously on my 6A. Check around the RV Internet sites, there are several ways of making this attachment. If I remember correctly I calculated that the maximum pull on the crotch belt would be about 400 lbs in a 20 G stop so I fabricated some brackets, pop riveted them to seat ribs and used angle bar between brackets to attach crotch belt. George in Langley BC ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:41 AM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 06/10 9:25, Dan Checkoway wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > I don't have a 5-point system (I have Van's simple cheap lightweight > 4-point). The 5-point is an uncomfortable waste of weight & cost (imho). > Not worth it unless you have inverted OIL *and* FUEL *and* you do lots of > sustained inverted. Otherwise why bother? Safety. If it will hold you better in the seat inverted it's certainly going to keep you in the seat better if you have to land *unexpectedly*. And the el-cheapo vans belts don't look near as cool either. This is obviously the main factor why I didn't chose them. :) You don't *have* to use it if it's uncomfortable. So what if it weights a pound more. You aren't going to notice the net speed loss, even if you could measure it. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:58 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV7-List: 5 point harness From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" "Its only a pound"...But I agree coolness wins over any other consideration...:) Do not archive Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 06/10 9:25, Dan Checkoway wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > I don't have a 5-point system (I have Van's simple cheap lightweight > 4-point). The 5-point is an uncomfortable waste of weight & cost (imho). > Not worth it unless you have inverted OIL *and* FUEL *and* you do lots of > sustained inverted. Otherwise why bother? Safety. If it will hold you better in the seat inverted it's certainly going to keep you in the seat better if you have to land *unexpectedly*. And the el-cheapo vans belts don't look near as cool either. This is obviously the main factor why I didn't chose them. :) You don't *have* to use it if it's uncomfortable. So what if it weights a pound more. You aren't going to notice the net speed loss, even if you could measure it. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:02 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Understood about safety. > You don't *have* to use it if it's uncomfortable. How quickly can you remove it? Surely you don't want it just lying there where it can interfere with the stick. do not archive )_( Dan ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:26 AM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: Dwight Frye On Fri Jun 10 13:28:23 2005, Walter Tondu wrote : >Safety. If it will hold you better in the seat inverted it's >certainly going to keep you in the seat better if you have to >land *unexpectedly*. > >And the el-cheapo vans belts don't look near as cool either. >This is obviously the main factor why I didn't chose them. :) > >You don't *have* to use it if it's uncomfortable. > >So what if it weights a pound more. You aren't going >to notice the net speed loss, even if you could measure it. So I want to clarify something ... does Van's crotch strap kit hardware work for the Hooker or other (non-Van's) 5-point belts? Or do I need to get "belt system specific" hardware if I want to go with other than the Van's belts in my -7? -- Dwight do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:50 AM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" As typical, I'll play both sides of the fence here. Dan definately makes a true statement. I have 5 point hookers in my -6 with both inverted oil & fuel. That being said, even WITH the 5 point harnesses, the side by side RV's don't lend themselves well to sustained inverted flight. The airplane will do it just fine, but the seat belt geometry in the side/side just doesn't work well. The seat belts bascially pull nearly straight back, not much down. Same with the shoulder harnesses. Even if you suck the crotch strap down as tight as you can, make the lap belts so tight you can barely breath, you'll still slide down the back of the seat a little bit when flying sustained inverted. That being said, Konrad makes a point about the "submarining" of people during an incident. Cost of the hookers isn't that much higher than Van's (only about $50-$60 total above their 5 point set). Weight has been hashed over on these belts and they surprisingly aren't that much different. The archives are stuffed full of info on them. Typcially the hookers weight about 2-3 lbs (total for both sets) more than the Van's 4 pt., and about 1-1.5 lbs more than the Van's 5 pt. So, it really comes down to what you like. I like the Hookers due to large palette of color choices, and the color trimmed padding on the lap belts and shoulder harnesses are nice. Cheers, Stein. do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" I don't have a 5-point system (I have Van's simple cheap lightweight 4-point). The 5-point is an uncomfortable waste of weight & cost (imho). Not worth it unless you have inverted OIL *and* FUEL *and* you do lots of sustained inverted. Otherwise why bother? )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:47 AM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 06/10 10:51, Dan Checkoway wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > Understood about safety. > > > You don't *have* to use it if it's uncomfortable. > > How quickly can you remove it? Surely you don't want it just lying there > where it can interfere with the stick. Shove it back into the slot in the seat cushion. It's out of the way at that point. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:00 AM PST US From: Norman Younie Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: Norman Younie I agree with Dan. Why add the weight to the plane. Every pound counts. A pound here and a pound there and the next thing an other gizzmo or two and you'll find the climb performance decreasing and the fuel burn going up.I have a few hours in these things and have never found a five point necessary unless you are staying inverted. The F1 is a different story, it has inverted oil, fuel and a smoke system you need it then. Norman Dan Checkoway wrote: >--> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > >Understood about safety. > > > >>You don't *have* to use it if it's uncomfortable. >> >> > >How quickly can you remove it? Surely you don't want it just lying there >where it can interfere with the stick. > >do not archive >)_( Dan > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:23 AM PST US From: "DuWaine Emmons" Subject: RE: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: "DuWaine Emmons" As an owner of a Citabria and T-182, my partners and I placed Hooker 5pt harnesses in both planes. One reason, safety. If you fly over mountains or backcountry, you may not be able to choose how you land. DuWaine -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Understood about safety. > You don't *have* to use it if it's uncomfortable. How quickly can you remove it? Surely you don't want it just lying there where it can interfere with the stick. do not archive )_( Dan ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:26 AM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 06/10 2:10, Dwight Frye wrote: > --> RV7-List message posted by: Dwight Frye > > On Fri Jun 10 13:28:23 2005, Walter Tondu wrote : > >Safety. If it will hold you better in the seat inverted it's > >certainly going to keep you in the seat better if you have to > >land *unexpectedly*. > > > >And the el-cheapo vans belts don't look near as cool either. > >This is obviously the main factor why I didn't chose them. :) > > > >You don't *have* to use it if it's uncomfortable. > > > >So what if it weights a pound more. You aren't going > >to notice the net speed loss, even if you could measure it. > > So I want to clarify something ... does Van's crotch strap kit > hardware work for the Hooker or other (non-Van's) 5-point belts? Yes. > Or do I need to get "belt system specific" hardware if I want > to go with other than the Van's belts in my -7? > > -- Dwight > > do not archive > > > > > -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:34 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV7-List: 5 point harness From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" So is the consensus that a side by side RV with inverted fuel and oil really needs 5 point harnesses? Don't think I'm going to like the answer to this..... Frank ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:21 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RE: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: Both sides have +'s and -'s and now it's up to you. Make the desision and then go for it and don't look back. I went forward with the 5 Point Hooker in my RV7A and I certantly wont second guess what I did. Richard Glick RV7A, Wisconsin > > From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > Date: 2005/06/10 Fri PM 03:02:58 EDT > To: > Subject: RE: RV7-List: 5 point harness > > --> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > So is the consensus that a side by side RV with inverted fuel and oil > really needs 5 point harnesses? > > Don't think I'm going to like the answer to this..... > > Frank > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:25 PM PST US From: Norman Younie Subject: Re: RV7-List: 5 point harness --> RV7-List message posted by: Norman Younie yes Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: >--> RV7-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > >So is the consensus that a side by side RV with inverted fuel and oil >really needs 5 point harnesses? > >Don't think I'm going to like the answer to this..... > >Frank > > > >