Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:35 AM - Re: Nosewheel collapse another view (Darrell Reiley)
2. 07:52 AM - Re: Nosewheel collapse another view (Sportypilot)
3. 01:39 PM - Re: Nosewheel collapse another view (Richard McCraw)
4. 03:48 PM - More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (JohnCClarkVA@cs.com)
5. 08:25 PM - Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (Jamie Painter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
First quarter of 2005 on the RV7 yahoo group, just before the bulletin was issued...
Richard McCraw <rmccraw@s4t.net> wrote: --> RV7-List message posted by: "Richard
McCraw"
Maybe I've been asleep, but I haven't seen a discussion of nosewheel
collapses on either the RV or the RV-7 lists. Can someone please point me
at this discussion?
Rick
RV-7(A?)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Tomm
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Nosewheel collapse another view
--> RV7-List message posted by: "B Tomm"
I've wondered whether powder coating affects the heat treating since it
involves considerable heat. Anyone KNOW the answer.
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Merems
Subject: RV7-List: Nosewheel collapse another view
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems"
Gents,
I too am building an RV-7A and have been following the discussions about the
recent nosewheel collapse. I am concerned about this situation as many of
you are.
I have talked with Ken Krueger (Van's engineering), who I have a tremendous
respect for, about some of these recent accidents. I am certain Van's
Aircraft takes this situation very seriously. However if you step back and
ask yourself are there a few RV'As out there that have had the highest
number of landings to date, where would you find them? What kind of landing
have they seen? Grass or paved runways? My best guess is these are the
RV-7A and RV-9A prototypes at Van's Aircraft. Who flies these? Van's
staff. Where have they landed? Grass or pavement? Both. Have they taxied
on grass? Yes. Have they botched a few landing? I would think so. Now I
would bet these two aircraft have 10 times or more the numbers of landing
then any another RV's out there and their nose gears haven't collapsed.
I am not saying there isn't a issue, I am just giving you another view to
understand possibly why Van's Aircraft appears to have "no comment" when it
comes to this issue.
In all the postings about this issue, no one has mentioned the possibility
of improper heat treating of the gear leg. If I recall this was an issue
sometime ago with some main gear legs on RV's. This might be the root
cause. This can be easily determined by sending the nose gear leg off to
any qualified machine shop who can perform a hardness test on the leg. This
will help determine if the gear was heat treated properly.
Food for thought.
Paul
Darrell Reiley
Round Rock, Texas
RV 7A "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR (reserved)
---------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Sportypilot" <sportypilot@stx.rr.com>
www.vansairforce.net
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=2846&highlight=nosewheel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darrell Reiley" <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Nosewheel collapse another view
> --> RV7-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley
> <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
>
> First quarter of 2005 on the RV7 yahoo group, just before the bulletin was
> issued...
>
> Richard McCraw <rmccraw@s4t.net> wrote: --> RV7-List message posted by:
> "Richard McCraw"
>
> Maybe I've been asleep, but I haven't seen a discussion of nosewheel
> collapses on either the RV or the RV-7 lists. Can someone please point me
> at this discussion?
>
> Rick
> RV-7(A?)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Tomm
> To: rv7-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV7-List: Nosewheel collapse another view
>
> --> RV7-List message posted by: "B Tomm"
>
> I've wondered whether powder coating affects the heat treating since it
> involves considerable heat. Anyone KNOW the answer.
>
> Bevan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Merems
> To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com; rv9-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV7-List: Nosewheel collapse another view
>
> --> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems"
>
> Gents,
>
> I too am building an RV-7A and have been following the discussions about
> the
> recent nosewheel collapse. I am concerned about this situation as many of
> you are.
>
> I have talked with Ken Krueger (Van's engineering), who I have a
> tremendous
> respect for, about some of these recent accidents. I am certain Van's
> Aircraft takes this situation very seriously. However if you step back and
> ask yourself are there a few RV'As out there that have had the highest
> number of landings to date, where would you find them? What kind of
> landing
> have they seen? Grass or paved runways? My best guess is these are the
> RV-7A and RV-9A prototypes at Van's Aircraft. Who flies these? Van's
> staff. Where have they landed? Grass or pavement? Both. Have they taxied
> on grass? Yes. Have they botched a few landing? I would think so. Now I
> would bet these two aircraft have 10 times or more the numbers of landing
> then any another RV's out there and their nose gears haven't collapsed.
>
> I am not saying there isn't a issue, I am just giving you another view to
> understand possibly why Van's Aircraft appears to have "no comment" when
> it
> comes to this issue.
>
> In all the postings about this issue, no one has mentioned the possibility
> of improper heat treating of the gear leg. If I recall this was an issue
> sometime ago with some main gear legs on RV's. This might be the root
> cause. This can be easily determined by sending the nose gear leg off to
> any qualified machine shop who can perform a hardness test on the leg.
> This
> will help determine if the gear was heat treated properly.
>
> Food for thought.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Darrell Reiley
> Round Rock, Texas
>
> RV 7A "Reiley Rocket"
> N622DR (reserved)
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw@s4t.net>
Thanks for the referral to Yahoo. I don't Yahoo, at least not for that.
Dadgum it: Now I'm rethinking the 7/7A decision again...
Rick
Do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | More data - Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: JohnCClarkVA@cs.com
Ok folks, more time to spare - too hot to work in the hangar. Besides, I
have just finished working off the FAA squawks on my -9A, made the cowl much
easier to remove and install, and will call the FAA Monday to hopefully get an
airworthiness certificate.
What we have been missing in this discussion is the exposure to accidents,
that is, how may RV taildraggers are there, how many A models, how long has
each model been in service?
For example, IF most of the 7s and 9s are A models, then anything that ends
up inverted is going to be an A model. Here are the numbers I found.
The data below with "Airplanes" in service, and those "inverted", flipped, or
nosed over. I took out the fatal because you can crash inverted, which is
not the issue here.
For -6, 672 airplanes and 34 inverted, flipped, or nosed over
-6A, 642 airplanes and 33 inverted
About even for both
For -7, 57 airplanes and 0 inverted
-7A, 98 airplanes and 3 inverted
not a significant difference, one or two either way can even it up
For -8, 298 airplanes and 7 inverted
-8A, 84 airplanes and 5 inverted
may show some significance, not much though, again, one or two out of the -8A
and numbers would even up
For -9, 15 airplanes and 0 inverted
-9A, 107 airplanes and 3 inverted
the first -9 that goes inverted, and we can wait for 7 more -9As to even the
score, just kidding.
Also, the 6 and 6A have been around much longer so with 33 hits each, on
average 3 "inverted" a year (for 10 years, just a WAG by me, suggest a better
number of years if you will).
To me, it does not seem that 7, 8 and 9As are on pace to match the 6As.
Too bad we can't get the number of hours flown, or number of flights, etc.
Also, I have no idea if the 6A gear is significantly different that the 7, 8
or 9A.
Right now, I don't see a significant difference between the models. Of
course, the situation may become much clearer as the number of RVs come into
service and the years add up.
Clearly, ditches and soft ground are a menace to the A models,as they are for
many of the certified airplanes. Also, engine problems, fuel starvation,
fuel exhaustion, etc are a significant factor that can be better controlled.
This was a very quick look, so there may be some glaring mistakes. Also,
there are some double counts in some cases where, for example, "flip" and
"inverted" both are in a file. Let me know if there are other ways to parse out
the
numbers. Also, I would encourage you to go to the NTSB web site and use the
query system, read some of the reports (www.ntsb.gov, select AVIATION at the
top, select ACCIDENT DATA BASE at the top, select QUERY at the top) . The FAA
data base has the registration data, that is, the number of RVs registered.
With that said, practice the slow flight, spot landings, stick all the way
back, at least for the A models.
I should have stayed at the hangar and finished my flight test cards.
Regards, John.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Jamie Painter <jdpainter@jpainter.org>
On Aug 20, 2005, at 6:47 PM, JohnCClarkVA@cs.com wrote:
> Clearly, ditches and soft ground are a menace to the A models,as they
> are for
> many of the certified airplanes. Also, engine problems, fuel
> starvation,
> fuel exhaustion, etc are a significant factor that can be better
> controlled.
How true this is. MANY certified nosedraggers have gone over during
off-field landings...it's one of the caveats of the design. The FBO
that I currently rent from had a 150 go over a few years back when the
woman flying it got lost and decided to put it down on a grass field to
ask for directions (I kid you not). The nosewheel sank in the ground
and up and over it went.
That being said. the flip-overs on paved surfaces do require further
examination and I believe it has been pretty well established that
pilot error is the biggest cause. These airplanes are not trainers.
They should not be landed on the nose gear. It's been demonstrated
that these nose-draggers can land on almost any decent field, so that
indicates to me that there's no fundamental problem in the design.
There just isn't much room for inattention or carelessness in the
design.
All the best,
Jamie D. Painter
N622JP (reserved) Fuselage
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