Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:48 AM - Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (Bob Collins)
2. 06:03 AM - Re: Nosewheel collapse another view (Brian Meyette)
3. 07:29 AM - Re: Nosewheel collapse another view (Merems)
4. 09:01 AM - Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (Konrad L. Werner)
5. 10:33 AM - Shimming required? (Merems)
6. 10:34 AM - Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view ()
7. 11:03 AM - Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (Richard McCraw)
8. 02:39 PM - Re: RV7-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 08/20/05 (ENAJRICK@aol.com)
9. 03:44 PM - Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (JohnCClarkVA@cs.com)
10. 04:55 PM - Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (Darrell Reiley)
11. 05:48 PM - Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (JohnCClarkVA@cs.com)
12. 06:56 PM - Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (Mark Grieve)
13. 08:55 PM - tap for tie down ring? (Don Hall)
14. 09:33 PM - Re: tap for tie down ring? (Gerry Filby)
Message 1
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| Subject: | More data - Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
//the woman flying it got lost and decided to put it down on a grass field
to
ask for directions (I kid you not).
I often wonder why more people don't just drop down and look at the water
towers when they get lost.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Nosewheel collapse another view |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on hathor
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic@starband.net>
So what did he have to say about it?
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Merems
Subject: RV7-List: Nosewheel collapse another view
I have talked with Ken Krueger (Van's engineering), who I have a tremendous
respect for, about some of these recent accidents. I am certain Van's
Aircraft takes this situation very seriously
<SNIP>
Paul
--
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems" <merems@cox.net>
I spoke with Ken Krueger a while back when there were discussions on the newsgroups
about the new nosegear yoke. I was concerned about the latest RV-7A nose
over after seeing some photos of the accident. He believed that the new fork
design was not a significant change that have effected the outcome of the landing.
The change was due to other reasons (I believe manufacturing issues).
He had personal experienced bad landing in the RV-7/9A and had taxied many times
on grass without incident.
I was up at Oshkosh this year. There were hundreds of RV's, many of them A's.
They were parked all over and many had to taxi their aircraft in the grass great
distances. The grass was cut and smooth, but wasn't exactly flat. I understand
that many had to fast taxi due to the large numbers of aircraft landing
and parking. I personally saw production aircraft fast taxi on the grass and
start to "porpoise", not a good sight. I talked with on of the RV-10 owners
there (aircraft was painted light tan) who fast taxied and the rudder bottom hit
the ground (must have been fully loaded). The rudder bottom was cracked and
rear position/strobe was broken. The rudder wasn't bent.
I didn't see or hear of any A's having any issue with there gear collapsing.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Meyette
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 6:02 AM
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Nosewheel collapse another view
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic@starband.net>
So what did he have to say about it?
brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Merems
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com; rv9-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV7-List: Nosewheel collapse another view
I have talked with Ken Krueger (Van's engineering), who I have a tremendous
respect for, about some of these recent accidents. I am certain Van's
Aircraft takes this situation very seriously
<SNIP>
Paul
--
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Konrad L. Werner" <klwerner@comcast.net>
That's because they got lost in the first place, and now can't find the watertowers
!!!
Sorry, I could not resist this one! :-)
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Collins
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 5:47 AM
Subject: RE: RV7-List: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
//the woman flying it got lost and decided to put it down on a grass field
to
ask for directions (I kid you not).
I often wonder why more people don't just drop down and look at the water
towers when they get lost.
--
Message 5
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| Subject: | Shimming required? |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Merems" <merems@cox.net>
Gents,
Have any other builders needed to shim about 0.063" (1/16") between the F-724 (Aft
Fuselage Bulkhead) bottom flange and the F-623 (Corner Rib). To refresh some
of your memory this is the F-623 is bottom corner rib that extends to the
side of the baggage bay to the side skins. This is the rib that get notched for
the flap pushrod and also get trimmed for the step tube to clear. The F-724
is the vertical bulkhead in the baggage bay. It appears that without shimming
the side skins will not line up properly with the bottom skin and corner rib
flange.
Attached is a image from the plan set.
Any thoughts?
Paul
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Yea, BUT John & Jamie:
Thanks for the data, but I think statistics and getting into a tail dragger vs.
nosedragger comparison debate is not really useful at this point. I DON'T want
to turn this into a defense mode of tail draggers Vs. tri-gear, which always
turns into a heated debate. Lets just focus on the Tri-gear and the physics
of what happens to the nose gear. I think the pros-cons of TRI vs TD has been
beat to death.
By saying SEE TAILDRAGGERS FLIP TO, does nothing to explain or explore possible
improvements to the RV-A design.
The fact that gears his gears have folded, by justifying it gets into a non-value
added event at a certain point. Clearly pilot skill and poor tire clearance
has been factors, but Why/How do taildraggers flip? No doubt it for totally
different reasons than a nose dragger. In fact the Tri-gear should be more stable
in some ways. To tie with taildragger accidents should not be a plus for the
Tri-gear configuration or justification of its service history.
If the nose gear was stiffer would the flip rate go to zero?
Fact a RV-7A folded a nose gear during taxi. Fact, another folded the gear during
take-off roll. In either of these two cases, they flip not flip, but they are
not in your STATS.
Regardless, flip or not, gears of any kind that bend during seemingly normal operations
is not super acceptable. In the takeoff case, tire interference was thought
to cause a jam or drag. That is a reasonable explanation and the solution
is tire clearance and proper tire pressure. In many others is thought to be
pilot error, which is also likely are reasonable. The 4kt taxi case? Did a combo
of grass jamming, bump, soft ground and aircraft weight conspire to cause
this folded gear? Is that acceptable. ( Sorry for the comparison but I feel confident
in saying a tail dragger would not have been damaged gear (or nosed over)
in the same 4kt taxi condition.)
Of your data/stats, how many taildragger's flipped over during taxi or initial
takeoff?
When it comes to statistics, figures lie. I mean it is useful info and interesting
but conclusions can not be made without detailed understanding and failure
analysis of every case, beyond the plane ended up on its back. Loss of control
during landing resulting in a ground loop can flip any plane, especially a TD.
If this is the reason, it is pilot error. Bottom line it should be in pilot
control and the structure should be robust enough to take abuse or extreme conditions.
A Mooney is NOT a soft field plane. Taxi on dirt with a Mooney is asking
for a bent prop. IN a RV billed as total performance we expect soft field
capability. There does seem to be a correlation to soft surface and nose gear
problems.
Why do A-models flip and why do taildragger flip?
I know the data you are using, and it is hard to compare apples and apples with
the broad brush information available, with out detail analysis of each case,
which is just not available unless you investigated and interviewed every case.
However what you did is great, but what does it matter if you bend your plane.
The idea is not become a statistic. I would like to see that A-model flip rate
go to zero, not tie with a taildragger. I like tail draggers but the A-model
should have better stats than the TD for landing (taxi) accidents. That is the
whole idea of this easier more stable (directionally) configuration in theory.
Historically when Cessna or Piper went from TD to Tri ground handling improved
and landing accidents improved. You would expect the same from the RV-A model.
Statistics is a great place to start but I think we are past that now. Lets
get the Tri gear down to Zero gear issues or flips.
Cheers George
PS Van's Aircraft did check heat treat on some of the nose gear struts and they
where good.
RV7-List Digest Server <rv7-list-digest@matronics.com> wrote:
4. 03:48 PM - More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (JohnCClarkVA@cs.com)
5. 08:25 PM - Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view (Jamie Painter)
________________________________ Message 4
Time: 03:48:40 PM PST US
From: JohnCClarkVA@cs.com
Subject: RV7-List: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view
--> RV7-List message posted by: JohnCClarkVA@cs.com
Ok folks, more time to spare - too hot to work in the hangar. Besides, I
have just finished working off the FAA squawks on my -9A, made the cowl much
easier to remove and install, and will call the FAA Monday to hopefully get an
airworthiness certificate.
What we have been missing in this discussion is the exposure to accidents,
that is, how may RV taildraggers are there, how many A models, how long has
each model been in service?
For example, IF most of the 7s and 9s are A models, then anything that ends
up inverted is going to be an A model. Here are the numbers I found.
The data below with "Airplanes" in service, and those "inverted", flipped, or
nosed over. I took out the fatal because you can crash inverted, which is
not the issue here.
For -6, 672 airplanes and 34 inverted, flipped, or nosed over
-6A, 642 airplanes and 33 inverted
About even for both
For -7, 57 airplanes and 0 inverted
-7A, 98 airplanes and 3 inverted
not a significant difference, one or two either way can even it up
For -8, 298 airplanes and 7 inverted
-8A, 84 airplanes and 5 inverted
may show some significance, not much though, again, one or two out of the -8A
and numbers would even up
For -9, 15 airplanes and 0 inverted
-9A, 107 airplanes and 3 inverted
the first -9 that goes inverted, and we can wait for 7 more -9As to even the
score, just kidding.
Also, the 6 and 6A have been around much longer so with 33 hits each, on
average 3 "inverted" a year (for 10 years, just a WAG by me, suggest a better
number of years if you will).
To me, it does not seem that 7, 8 and 9As are on pace to match the 6As.
Too bad we can't get the number of hours flown, or number of flights, etc.
Also, I have no idea if the 6A gear is significantly different that the 7, 8
or 9A.
Right now, I don't see a significant difference between the models. Of
course, the situation may become much clearer as the number of RVs come into
service and the years add up.
Clearly, ditches and soft ground are a menace to the A models,as they are for
many of the certified airplanes. Also, engine problems, fuel starvation,
fuel exhaustion, etc are a significant factor that can be better controlled.
This was a very quick look, so there may be some glaring mistakes. Also,
there are some double counts in some cases where, for example, "flip" and
"inverted" both are in a file. Let me know if there are other ways to parse out
the
numbers. Also, I would encourage you to go to the NTSB web site and use the
query system, read some of the reports (www.ntsb.gov, select AVIATION at the
top, select ACCIDENT DATA BASE at the top, select QUERY at the top) . The FAA
data base has the registration data, that is, the number of RVs registered.
With that said, practice the slow flight, spot landings, stick all the way
back, at least for the A models.
I should have stayed at the hangar and finished my flight test cards.
Regards, John.
________________________________ Message 5
Time: 08:25:04 PM PST US
From: Jamie Painter
Subject: Re: RV7-List: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view
--> RV7-List message posted by: Jamie Painter
On Aug 20, 2005, at 6:47 PM, JohnCClarkVA@cs.com wrote:
> Clearly, ditches and soft ground are a menace to the A models,as they
> are for
> many of the certified airplanes. Also, engine problems, fuel
> starvation,
> fuel exhaustion, etc are a significant factor that can be better
> controlled.
How true this is. MANY certified nosedraggers have gone over during
off-field landings...it's one of the caveats of the design. The FBO
that I currently rent from had a 150 go over a few years back when the
woman flying it got lost and decided to put it down on a grass field to
ask for directions (I kid you not). The nosewheel sank in the ground
and up and over it went.
That being said. the flip-overs on paved surfaces do require further
examination and I believe it has been pretty well established that
pilot error is the biggest cause. These airplanes are not trainers.
They should not be landed on the nose gear. It's been demonstrated
that these nose-draggers can land on almost any decent field, so that
indicates to me that there's no fundamental problem in the design.
There just isn't much room for inattention or carelessness in the
design.
All the best,
Jamie D. Painter
N622JP (reserved) Fuselage
---------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | More data - Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Richard McCraw" <rmccraw@s4t.net>
Just for the heck of it I converted John Clark's statistics to percentages,
as follows:
Craft #units Flips Pct
RV-6 672 34 5%
RV-6A 642 33 5%
RV-7 57 0 0%
RV-7A 98 3 3%
RV-8 298 7 2%
RV-8A 84 5 6%
RV-9 15 0 0%
RV-9A 107 3 3%
That got me wondering how these numbers would compare to various production
aircraft with lots of units, say a Cherokee 140 and C-172 (though any
smaller tricycle would do -- perhaps others, like an AA-1, would be more
comparable to RVs). I began to do that but stalled out; I had no trouble
with the NTSB query, but I didn't see how to determine how many of a given
type are in service.
I wonder what the comparison would show.
Rick
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RV7-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 08/20/05 |
--> RV7-List message posted by: ENAJRICK@aol.com
On a different subject. I'm about to close up my tanks and for admittedly
purely aestheic reasons I can't quite bring myself to install these clunky fuel
drains. They probably work great and all, but, does anyone know of a simple
substitute that lays flush or almost flush with the bottom skin? They seem
more at home on a crop duster.
Rick R
RV-7A / wings
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: JohnCClarkVA@cs.com
Go to www.faa.gov, then LICENSES and CERT, then SEARCH A/C RECORDS, then
SEARCH A/C REGISTRATIONS.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley <lifeofreiley2003@yahoo.com>
Are you referring to the 9A that landed and flipped over on the 15th in Palmer,
AK?
JohnCClarkVA@cs.com wrote: --> RV7-List message posted by: JohnCClarkVA@cs.com
Go to www.faa.gov, then LICENSES and CERT, then SEARCH A/C RECORDS, then
SEARCH A/C REGISTRATIONS.
Darrell Reiley
Round Rock, Texas
RV 7A "Reiley Rocket"
N622DR (reserved)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: JohnCClarkVA@cs.com
Oops sorry.
I had made an earlier post and Rick McCraw had asked about the FAA data base.
"That got me wondering how these numbers would compare to various production
aircraft with lots of units, say a Cherokee 140 and C-172 (though any
smaller tricycle would do -- perhaps others, like an AA-1, would be more
comparable to RVs). I began to do that but stalled out; I had no trouble
with the NTSB query, but I didn't see how to determine how many of a given
type are in service."
My post was just about where to look on the FAA web site to find the number
of registered airplanes by model. The FAA site will list a model by state and
a total at the end of the states.
John.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: More data - Nosewheel collapse another view |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Mark Grieve <mark@macomb.com>
Bob,
I will certainly confirm that this works! I was over the Sand Hills of
Northern Nebraska and found myself as lost as I have ever been. There
were no landmarks in any direction as far as I could see; just hills,
grass, more hills and more grass. It all looked alike. Not at all like
Illinois, we have towns and roads. All I had was a VOR telling me that
Ainsworth was at my 3 o'clock but how far? 40 miles, maybe 60 No DME
and no second VOR within range. The ADF was actually picking up
Valentine but I couldn't get an ident. Tempting as it was, tracking to
an unknown was bound to make things worse. 3 hours of fuel and good
weather helped me keep calm. I told my passenger that I would fly
straight North for 5 minutes. There was a highway that we had not
crossed and I hoped to find it. If we found nothing then I would turn
right and track to Ainsworth. A few minutes later I dropped down to 500
AGL and he was surprised at my instruction to read the water tower. Wood
Lake it was. Left turn, follow the road 20 miles, hello Valentine. When
Mike tells the story we are on running on fumes by the time we land.
That trip taught me something about navigation. The departure taught me
something about density altitude but that's another post.
BTW, a buddy who flew Chinooks said that he had to read the sign in
front of a church one day. Hope it wasn't a Sunday morning.
Do not archive
Mark
Bob Collins wrote:
>--> RV7-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
>
>//the woman flying it got lost and decided to put it down on a grass field
>to
>ask for directions (I kid you not).
>
>I often wonder why more people don't just drop down and look at the water
>towers when they get lost.
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | tap for tie down ring? |
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Don Hall" <dhall@donka.net>
How do you tap the AEX tie down bracket for the tie down ring?
******************************************
Don Hall
N517DG (registered)
rv7 wings
http:\\donka.net\rv7project.html
******************************************
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: tap for tie down ring? |
--> RV7-List message posted by: Gerry Filby <gerf@gerf.com>
Using a "3/8-16 tap".
You can get one from Home Depot - they often come packaged with
the appropriate drill. Clamp the bracket to the table of an
overhead drill, use the provided drill to make the hole and
then use the tap to make the thread.
The tap is basically a tapered screw with 3 or 4 lengthwise
flutes that have a very sharp, hard edge. After you've drilled
the hole lengthwise, you "screw" the tap into the hole to make
the thread.
Use lots of your favorite cutting lubricant (Rapid Tap Cutting
Fluid is a cheap option) when drilling and tapping. When you
screw the tap into the hole, use the rythm "Half a turn
clockwise, quarter turn back, half a turn clockwise, half a
turn back..." that allows the cut metal to clear the cutting
edge leaving a clean thread. Wash the thread out when you're
done with kerosene or some other solvent that removes the
tapping oil and the aluminum burrs created.
g
>
> --> RV7-List message posted by: "Don Hall" <dhall@donka.net>
>
>
> How do you tap the AEX tie down bracket for the tie down ring?
>
> ******************************************
> Don Hall
> N517DG (registered)
> rv7 wings
> http:\\donka.net\rv7project.html
> ******************************************
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
__g__
==========================================================
Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com
Tel: 415 203 9177
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