Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:26 AM - Re: Right Elevator (Paul Walter)
2. 06:51 AM - Re: Engine - cowling (TylerB)
3. 07:21 AM - Re: Engine - cowling (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
4. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Right Elevator (Dan Checkoway)
5. 01:47 PM - exp2v bus dc load ()
6. 02:51 PM - Re: exp2v bus dc load ()
7. 03:10 PM - Re: exp2v bus dc load (Peter DeCraene)
8. 10:19 PM - Re: Re: Right Elevator (Jon Elford)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Right Elevator |
Hi Dan,
When preparing the right elevator I have dimpled skin. I then intern dimpled all
holes in E-703 end rib and E - 704 counter balance rib. How ever as the E -
713 counter balance skin fits over these holding the counterweight, I am not sure
if this was the correct construction method.
Do I intern dimple the counter balance skin and use flush head rivets ?.
I'm having some grief with this and I have to tackle the left elevator complete
with trim tab next !!.
thanks Dan
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
My 200hp angle valve injected engine is easy to hot start. No, it's not as easy
as a carb'd engine, that's for sure. It definitely takes more blades to kick.
But it's no problem, assuming you know the technique.
I use the Airflow Performance purge valve. I also have a single Lightspeed Plasma
II electronic ignition. These things can't hurt.
A 200hp injected engine versus a 180hp injected engine...they should behave identically
with respect to hot start traits.
Did you have balanced injectors on your Cardinal when you ran LOP? Were they
balanced so that EGTs peaked on all 4 cylinders within about 0.1gph of each other?
Was the prop dynamically balanced? Seems like you're confident that LOP
operation was the cause of the crank case fracture...curious about that.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: TylerB
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
I don't intend to run mogas in my engine. And the 180 will be a std. compression
which will keep the CHT more in line. Also probably will not run lean of
peak either. Did that on a Cardinal with the 200 angle valve and it did not last
to 2000TBO. Fractured at 1250 hrs at the same spot the crank case did before.
When I said tuned for best performance I meant flow matched , Horizontal cold
air, dual electronic ignitions, injectors done by AirFlow.
Dan, do you have to say a little prayer and do a little rain dance before cranking
hot on your 200. I sure had to on the Cardinal
Tyler N537TM
Dan Checkoway wrote:
Rocket...240 knots? Not. The HR-II drivers I know get around 180 KTAS burning
11-12gph.
I get 180 KTAS on ~10gph.
But I agree with the rest of your points. The angle valve engine is more
efficient at every turn. Worth the extra bucks? To me, absolutely. But obviously
not to most people, who are content running a less efficient powerplant
which has less cooling fin area. Which one is gonna make it to TBO and beyond...the
hopped-up 180hp parallel valve running around 400F on CHT for its life,
or the kicked-back 8.7:1 angle valve running at or below 300F on the CHTs?
Savings, schmavings.
What compression ratio are you gonna run on your IO-360 with auto fuel?
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:14 AM
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
I think the idea that the bigger engines burn more fuel is not quite right.
Essentially an engine in say 120HP cruise will burn the same amount of fuel
set up at the same mixture point. You have to look at the BFSC numbers which
tell you how much fuel is burned for how much HP is produced at various mixture
and power settings. Think you'll find they are all about the same.
Note Dan Checkoway gets avout 7.5 GPH on an angle Valved IO360 when trimmed
lean of peak.
Even the HArmon rocket guys get like 240knots at very low fuel consumption
when trimmed to LOP cruise and that is an IO540.
So I think the idea that a bigger engine equals more fuel is only true
for cars, airplanes have a choice..:)
As for me I went with and IO360 (180HP plus FF induction). The idea is
to run the motor on autofuel (I have a bit different pumping system) and there
is a $1 per gallon saving right there.
Frank
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TylerB
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:40 AM
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
As I am now evaluating engines for my RV7A build, I would appreciate advice
on this selection. The questions are more about weight than horsepower. If
I compare the IO360M1XX 180 HP to the IO360 - 200 HP and the IO390 -210 HP in
the terms of Weight, actual produced HP, fuel consumption, hot starting tendencies,
and overall performance in climb, airspeed etc. I cannot see a reason
to spend $5000-$10000 more for anything beyond the 180 HP built to maximize perfomance.
All three engines will take the airplane past Vne, the bigger two use
significantly more fuel, and if have ever tried to hot start one of the angle
valve engines you understand. The 200 HP weighs 30 # more and the 390-210 weighs
40 # more than that. Both burn 10-13 GPH at cruise where the 180 burns 8
or less. Even at $4.10 a gallon the cost savings alone are significant. Am I missing
something here?
Tyler, N537TM
Dan Checkoway wrote:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage/pressReleases/july02/mostPowerfulFourCylinder.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189629-1.html
There are apparently 11 shops which are now approved by Lycoming to do 390 build-ups. I would definitely talk to AeroSport Power (www.aerosportpower.com) and Mattituck (www.mattituck.com), and shop around to other build-up shops.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Dan,
This is of course true, the cowling can be replaced being the least
expensive item. Being new to he building process I've not heard of the 390
version. Where can I get some info ?.
Regards - Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Paul,
My personal choice for an engine is exactly what I have on my plane,
the IO-360-A1B6. I'm studying the IO-390 as well, and I look forward to seeing
whether it really lives up to the claims. I wonder whether the 390 will
be capable of achieving the same degree of economy as the IO-360-A1B6.
In any case, if you have the 180hp cowling, the angle valve engine
most likely won't fit, so I'd recommend using a parallel valve 180hp variant.
But to me it seems kinda silly to pick an engine based on which cowling you
have, rather than vice versa.
So it's hard for me to make a recommendation. Which powerplant do
you WANT?
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Thanks Dan,
I have studied your site so it was nice to hear from the man him
self.
I'm not sure that there would be to many wanting to trade down
here in Australia, how ever if need be I may purchase a new cowl if it is to big
a task to alter the one I have. Which engine would be you choice for my 7A
?.
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Charlie already covered the mount thing.
I suspect you could sell or trade the cowling if you didn't want to get into modifications. Seems like I see a cowling trade mentioned about once a month or so on the lists & forums. Try posting to the forums at http://www.vansairforce.net.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:15 PM
Subject: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Hi guys,
Glad to post my first question to the group, and is as follows.
When ordering my kit I selected the engine mount and cowl for
the 180 hp io 360. My question is can I at this point choose to change to the
200 hp model and then alter the cowling to remove air intake snorkel later
and glass repair. Or is the whole engine mount for the 200hp a different configuration.
Thanks guys
Paul Walter
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engine - cowling |
Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02
<96ECC502D2678A4192F48386A524718D02CF0E43@cacexc07.americas.cpqcorp.net>
<006001c5d33c$034e78a0$0700a8c0@hole> <43540C1E.3030903@infoave.net>
<002001c5d35f$83aa3110$0700a8c0@hole>
Prop was balanced and it had Gami's. The purge valve probably helps you
a lot. The Cardinal hot starts were hampered by vapor lock and in most
case took a lot of "air" and quite a few turns usually resulting in a
rich vapor post detonation in the exhaust. My experience with a C172
with the 180 engine (not angle valve) was that the hot starts were much
more benign. Not real sure that there was a single cause of the crank
case failure but the A&P had some comments about the "vibration" issues
when running LOP as he put it "with the Hartzell prop" But that is now
someone else's issues as I decided that it was much less expensive to
build a whole new plane than buying a certified 200 Factory Reman and I
sold the Cardinal. Just a lot of bagage left over from the engine issues
with it. The 360-180 really is considered "bullet proof" by most. There
are many Cardinal flyers out there that wish the IO390 could be STC for
the RG and nonRG Cardinals
Also on this RV7A the instrumentation will be vastly improved so the
engine will be more easily monitored.
Tyler
Dan Checkoway wrote:
> My 200hp angle valve injected engine is easy to hot start. No, it's
> not as easy as a carb'd engine, that's for sure. It definitely takes
> more blades to kick. But it's no problem, assuming you know the
> technique.
>
> I use the Airflow Performance purge valve. I also have a single
> Lightspeed Plasma II electronic ignition. These things can't hurt.
>
> A 200hp injected engine versus a 180hp injected engine...they should
> behave identically with respect to hot start traits.
>
> Did you have balanced injectors on your Cardinal when you ran LOP?
> Were they balanced so that EGTs peaked on all 4 cylinders within about
> 0.1gph of each other? Was the prop dynamically balanced? Seems like
> you're confident that LOP operation was the cause of the crank case
> fracture...curious about that.
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: TylerB <mailto:tylerii@InfoAve.Net>
> To: rv7-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv7-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 1:39 PM
> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
>
> I don't intend to run mogas in my engine. And the 180 will be a
> std. compression which will keep the CHT more in line. Also
> probably will not run lean of peak either. Did that on a Cardinal
> with the 200 angle valve and it did not last to 2000TBO. Fractured
> at 1250 hrs at the same spot the crank case did before.
> When I said tuned for best performance I meant flow matched ,
> Horizontal cold air, dual electronic ignitions, injectors done by
> AirFlow.
> Dan, do you have to say a little prayer and do a little rain dance
> before cranking hot on your 200. I sure had to on the Cardinal
> Tyler N537TM
>
> Dan Checkoway wrote:
>
>> Rocket...240 knots? Not. The HR-II drivers I know get around
>> 180 KTAS burning 11-12gph.
>>
>> I get 180 KTAS on ~10gph.
>>
>> But I agree with the rest of your points. The angle valve engine
>> is more efficient at every turn. Worth the extra bucks? To me,
>> absolutely. But obviously not to most people, who are content
>> running a less efficient powerplant which has less cooling fin
>> area. Which one is gonna make it to TBO and beyond...the
>> hopped-up 180hp parallel valve running around 400F on CHT for its
>> life, or the kicked-back 8.7:1 angle valve running at or below
>> 300F on the CHTs?
>>
>> Savings, schmavings.
>>
>> What compression ratio are you gonna run on your IO-360 with auto
>> fuel?
>>
>> )_( Dan
>> RV-7 N714D
>> http://www.rvproject.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
>> <mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com>
>> To: rv7-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv7-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:14 AM
>> Subject: RE: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
>>
>> I think the idea that the bigger engines burn more fuel is
>> not quite right. Essentially an engine in say 120HP cruise
>> will burn the same amount of fuel set up at the same mixture
>> point. You have to look at the BFSC numbers which tell you
>> how much fuel is burned for how much HP is produced at
>> various mixture and power settings. Think you'll find they
>> are all about the same.
>>
>> Note Dan Checkoway gets avout 7.5 GPH on an angle Valved
>> IO360 when trimmed lean of peak.
>>
>> Even the HArmon rocket guys get like 240knots at very low
>> fuel consumption when trimmed to LOP cruise and that is an IO540.
>>
>> So I think the idea that a bigger engine equals more fuel is
>> only true for cars, airplanes have a choice..:)
>>
>> As for me I went with and IO360 (180HP plus FF induction).
>> The idea is to run the motor on autofuel (I have a bit
>> different pumping system) and there is a $1 per gallon saving
>> right there.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TylerB
>> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:40 AM
>> To: rv7-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
>>
>> As I am now evaluating engines for my RV7A build, I would
>> appreciate advice on this selection. The questions are more
>> about weight than horsepower. If I compare the IO360M1XX 180
>> HP to the IO360 - 200 HP and the IO390 -210 HP in the terms
>> of Weight, actual produced HP, fuel consumption, hot starting
>> tendencies, and overall performance in climb, airspeed etc. I
>> cannot see a reason to spend $5000-$10000 more for anything
>> beyond the 180 HP built to maximize perfomance. All three
>> engines will take the airplane past Vne, the bigger two use
>> significantly more fuel, and if have ever tried to hot start
>> one of the angle valve engines you understand. The 200 HP
>> weighs 30 # more and the 390-210 weighs 40 # more than that.
>> Both burn 10-13 GPH at cruise where the 180 burns 8 or less.
>> Even at $4.10 a gallon the cost savings alone are
>> significant. Am I missing something here?
>> Tyler, N537TM
>>
>> Dan Checkoway wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=/pressReleases/july02/mostPowerfulFourCylinder.html
>>> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189629-1.html
>>>
>>> There are apparently 11 shops which are now approved by
>>> Lycoming to do 390 build-ups. I would definitely talk to
>>> AeroSport Power (www.aerosportpower.com
>>> <http://www.aerosportpower.com>) and Mattituck
>>> (www.mattituck.com <http://www.mattituck.com>), and shop
>>> around to other build-up shops.
>>>
>>> )_( Dan
>>> RV-7 N714D
>>> http://www.rvproject.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Paul Walter <mailto:pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
>>> To: rv7-list@matronics.com <mailto:rv7-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:18 PM
>>> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
>>>
>>> Dan,
>>> This is of course true, the cowling can be replaced
>>> being the least expensive item. Being new to he
>>> building process I've not heard of the 390 version.
>>> Where can I get some info ?.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards - Paul
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Dan Checkoway <mailto:dan@rvproject.com>
>>> To: rv7-list@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:rv7-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:12 AM
>>> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> My personal choice for an engine is exactly what I
>>> have on my plane, the IO-360-A1B6. I'm studying the
>>> IO-390 as well, and I look forward to seeing whether
>>> it really lives up to the claims. I wonder whether
>>> the 390 will be capable of achieving the same degree
>>> of economy as the IO-360-A1B6.
>>>
>>> In any case, if you have the 180hp cowling, the
>>> angle valve engine most likely won't fit, so I'd
>>> recommend using a parallel valve 180hp variant. But
>>> to me it seems kinda silly to pick an engine based
>>> on which cowling you have, rather than vice versa.
>>>
>>> So it's hard for me to make a recommendation. Which
>>> powerplant do you WANT?
>>>
>>> )_( Dan
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Paul Walter <mailto:pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
>>> To: rv7-list@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:rv7-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 12:33 AM
>>> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
>>>
>>> Thanks Dan,
>>> I have studied your site so it was nice to hear
>>> from the man him self.
>>> I'm not sure that there would be to many wanting
>>> to trade down here in Australia, how ever if
>>> need be I may purchase a new cowl if it is to
>>> big a task to alter the one I have. Which engine
>>> would be you choice for my 7A ?.
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul Walter
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Dan Checkoway <mailto:dan@rvproject.com>
>>> To: rv7-list@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:rv7-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
>>>
>>> Charlie already covered the mount thing.
>>>
>>> I suspect you could sell or trade the
>>> cowling if you didn't want to get into
>>> modifications. Seems like I see a cowling
>>> trade mentioned about once a month or so on
>>> the lists & forums. Try posting to the
>>> forums at http://www.vansairforce.net.
>>>
>>> )_( Dan
>>> RV-7 N714D
>>> http://www.rvproject.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Paul Walter
>>> <mailto:pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
>>> To: rv7-list@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:rv7-list@matronics.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:15 PM
>>> Subject: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
>>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> Glad to post my first question to the
>>> group, and is as follows.
>>>
>>> When ordering my kit I selected the
>>> engine mount and cowl for the 180 hp io
>>> 360. My question is can I at this point
>>> choose to change to the 200 hp model and
>>> then alter the cowling to remove air
>>> intake snorkel later and glass repair.
>>> Or is the whole engine mount for the
>>> 200hp a different configuration.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks guys
>>>
>>> Paul Walter
>>>
>>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Engine - cowling |
"vibration" issues when running LOP"....This sounds like an unbalanced
FI system to me...If you read the experts like Mahlon and others they
will tell you the only reason an engine runs rough when leaned is due to
one or more cylinders going out before the others...In other words
picking up a misfire.
Just a thought but I wonder if the angle valve engine is better at
discharging heat from the heads, is it also better at heating the
injection lines?...I.e causing a worse hot start issue than with the
parallel valve motor?
Of course the Purge valve will help a lot...
Even better (after I did NOT buy one) would be a FADEC as I believe
these have the injector mounted on the on the head almost like in a
car...I.e no low pressure lines to boil..
Oh well random early morning thoughts.
Frank
Do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TylerB
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Prop was balanced and it had Gami's. The purge valve probably helps you
a lot. The Cardinal hot starts were hampered by vapor lock and in most
case took a lot of "air" and quite a few turns usually resulting in a
rich vapor post detonation in the exhaust. My experience with a C172
with the 180 engine (not angle valve) was that the hot starts were much
more benign. Not real sure that there was a single cause of the crank
case failure but the A&P had some comments about the "vibration" issues
when running LOP as he put it "with the Hartzell prop" But that is now
someone else's issues as I decided that it was much less expensive to
build a whole new plane than buying a certified 200 Factory Reman and I
sold the Cardinal. Just a lot of bagage left over from the engine issues
with it. The 360-180 really is considered "bullet proof" by most. There
are many Cardinal flyers out there that wish the IO390 could be STC for
the RG and nonRG Cardinals
Also on this RV7A the instrumentation will be vastly improved so the
engine will be more easily monitored.
Tyler
Dan Checkoway wrote:
My 200hp angle valve injected engine is easy to hot start. No,
it's not as easy as a carb'd engine, that's for sure. It definitely
takes more blades to kick. But it's no problem, assuming you know the
technique.
I use the Airflow Performance purge valve. I also have a single
Lightspeed Plasma II electronic ignition. These things can't hurt.
A 200hp injected engine versus a 180hp injected engine...they
should behave identically with respect to hot start traits.
Did you have balanced injectors on your Cardinal when you ran
LOP? Were they balanced so that EGTs peaked on all 4 cylinders within
about 0.1gph of each other? Was the prop dynamically balanced? Seems
like you're confident that LOP operation was the cause of the crank case
fracture...curious about that.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: TylerB <mailto:tylerii@InfoAve.Net>
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
I don't intend to run mogas in my engine. And the 180
will be a std. compression which will keep the CHT more in line. Also
probably will not run lean of peak either. Did that on a Cardinal with
the 200 angle valve and it did not last to 2000TBO. Fractured at 1250
hrs at the same spot the crank case did before.
When I said tuned for best performance I meant flow
matched , Horizontal cold air, dual electronic ignitions, injectors done
by AirFlow.
Dan, do you have to say a little prayer and do a little
rain dance before cranking hot on your 200. I sure had to on the
Cardinal
Tyler N537TM
=09
Dan Checkoway wrote:
=09
Rocket...240 knots? Not. The HR-II drivers I
know get around 180 KTAS burning 11-12gph.
I get 180 KTAS on ~10gph.
But I agree with the rest of your points. The
angle valve engine is more efficient at every turn. Worth the extra
bucks? To me, absolutely. But obviously not to most people, who are
content running a less efficient powerplant which has less cooling fin
area. Which one is gonna make it to TBO and beyond...the hopped-up
180hp parallel valve running around 400F on CHT for its life, or the
kicked-back 8.7:1 angle valve running at or below 300F on the CHTs?
Savings, schmavings.
What compression ratio are you gonna run on your
IO-360 with auto fuel?
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
<mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com>
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:14 AM
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
I think the idea that the bigger engines
burn more fuel is not quite right. Essentially an engine in say 120HP
cruise will burn the same amount of fuel set up at the same mixture
point. You have to look at the BFSC numbers which tell you how much fuel
is burned for how much HP is produced at various mixture and power
settings. Think you'll find they are all about the same.
Note Dan Checkoway gets avout 7.5 GPH on
an angle Valved IO360 when trimmed lean of peak.
Even the HArmon rocket guys get like
240knots at very low fuel consumption when trimmed to LOP cruise and
that is an IO540.
So I think the idea that a bigger engine
equals more fuel is only true for cars, airplanes have a choice..:)
As for me I went with and IO360 (180HP
plus FF induction). The idea is to run the motor on autofuel (I have a
bit different pumping system) and there is a $1 per gallon saving right
there.
Frank
________________________________
From:
owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TylerB
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:40 AM
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
=09
=09
As I am now evaluating engines for my
RV7A build, I would appreciate advice on this selection. The questions
are more about weight than horsepower. If I compare the IO360M1XX 180 HP
to the IO360 - 200 HP and the IO390 -210 HP in the terms of Weight,
actual produced HP, fuel consumption, hot starting tendencies, and
overall performance in climb, airspeed etc. I cannot see a reason to
spend $5000-$10000 more for anything beyond the 180 HP built to maximize
perfomance. All three engines will take the airplane past Vne, the
bigger two use significantly more fuel, and if have ever tried to hot
start one of the angle valve engines you understand. The 200 HP weighs
30 # more and the 390-210 weighs 40 # more than that. Both burn 10-13
GPH at cruise where the 180 burns 8 or less. Even at $4.10 a gallon the
cost savings alone are significant. Am I missing something here?
Tyler, N537TM
=09
Dan Checkoway wrote:
=09
=09
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage/pressReleases/july02/
mostPowerfulFourCylinder.html
=09
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189629-1.html
There are apparently 11 shops which are
now approved by Lycoming to do 390 build-ups. I would definitely talk
to AeroSport Power (www.aerosportpower.com) and Mattituck
(www.mattituck.com), and shop around to other build-up shops.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
<mailto:pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Dan,
This is of course true, the cowling can
be replaced being the least expensive item. Being new to he building
process I've not heard of the 390 version. Where can I get some info ?.
Regards - Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
<mailto:dan@rvproject.com>
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Paul,
My personal choice for an engine is
exactly what I have on my plane, the IO-360-A1B6. I'm studying the
IO-390 as well, and I look forward to seeing whether it really lives up
to the claims. I wonder whether the 390 will be capable of achieving
the same degree of economy as the IO-360-A1B6.
In any case, if you have the 180hp
cowling, the angle valve engine most likely won't fit, so I'd recommend
using a parallel valve 180hp variant. But to me it seems kinda silly to
pick an engine based on which cowling you have, rather than vice versa.
So it's hard for me to make a
recommendation. Which powerplant do you WANT?
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
<mailto:pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Thanks Dan,
I have studied your site so it was nice
to hear from the man him self.
I'm not sure that there would be to many
wanting to trade down here in Australia, how ever if need be I may
purchase a new cowl if it is to big a task to alter the one I have.
Which engine would be you choice for my 7A ?.
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
<mailto:dan@rvproject.com>
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Charlie already covered the mount thing.
I suspect you could sell or trade the
cowling if you didn't want to get into modifications. Seems like I see
a cowling trade mentioned about once a month or so on the lists &
forums. Try posting to the forums at http://www.vansairforce.net.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
<mailto:pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:15 PM
Subject: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Hi guys,
Glad to post my first question to the
group, and is as follows.
When ordering my kit I selected the
engine mount and cowl for the 180 hp io 360. My question is can I at
this point choose to change to the 200 hp model and then alter the
cowling to remove air intake snorkel later and glass repair. Or is the
whole engine mount for the 200hp a different configuration.
Thanks guys
Paul Walter
Message 4
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|
| Subject: | Re: Right Elevator |
Paul,
The elevators, and in particular the counterweights, have changed since I built
mine. I recommend following the drawings and the construction sequence laid
out in the manual.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:25 AM
Subject: RV7-List: Re: Right Elevator
Hi Dan,
When preparing the right elevator I have dimpled skin. I then intern dimpled
all holes in E-703 end rib and E - 704 counter balance rib. How ever as the E
- 713 counter balance skin fits over these holding the counterweight, I am not
sure if this was the correct construction method.
Do I intern dimple the counter balance skin and use flush head rivets ?.
I'm having some grief with this and I have to tackle the left elevator complete
with trim tab next !!.
thanks Dan
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
My 200hp angle valve injected engine is easy to hot start. No, it's not as
easy as a carb'd engine, that's for sure. It definitely takes more blades to
kick. But it's no problem, assuming you know the technique.
I use the Airflow Performance purge valve. I also have a single Lightspeed
Plasma II electronic ignition. These things can't hurt.
A 200hp injected engine versus a 180hp injected engine...they should behave
identically with respect to hot start traits.
Did you have balanced injectors on your Cardinal when you ran LOP? Were they
balanced so that EGTs peaked on all 4 cylinders within about 0.1gph of each
other? Was the prop dynamically balanced? Seems like you're confident that
LOP operation was the cause of the crank case fracture...curious about that.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: TylerB
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
I don't intend to run mogas in my engine. And the 180 will be a std. compression
which will keep the CHT more in line. Also probably will not run lean
of peak either. Did that on a Cardinal with the 200 angle valve and it did not
last to 2000TBO. Fractured at 1250 hrs at the same spot the crank case did before.
When I said tuned for best performance I meant flow matched , Horizontal
cold air, dual electronic ignitions, injectors done by AirFlow.
Dan, do you have to say a little prayer and do a little rain dance before
cranking hot on your 200. I sure had to on the Cardinal
Tyler N537TM
Dan Checkoway wrote:
Rocket...240 knots? Not. The HR-II drivers I know get around 180 KTAS
burning 11-12gph.
I get 180 KTAS on ~10gph.
But I agree with the rest of your points. The angle valve engine is more
efficient at every turn. Worth the extra bucks? To me, absolutely. But obviously
not to most people, who are content running a less efficient powerplant
which has less cooling fin area. Which one is gonna make it to TBO and beyond...the
hopped-up 180hp parallel valve running around 400F on CHT for its life,
or the kicked-back 8.7:1 angle valve running at or below 300F on the CHTs?
Savings, schmavings.
What compression ratio are you gonna run on your IO-360 with auto fuel?
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:14 AM
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
I think the idea that the bigger engines burn more fuel is not quite
right. Essentially an engine in say 120HP cruise will burn the same amount of
fuel set up at the same mixture point. You have to look at the BFSC numbers which
tell you how much fuel is burned for how much HP is produced at various mixture
and power settings. Think you'll find they are all about the same.
Note Dan Checkoway gets avout 7.5 GPH on an angle Valved IO360 when trimmed
lean of peak.
Even the HArmon rocket guys get like 240knots at very low fuel consumption
when trimmed to LOP cruise and that is an IO540.
So I think the idea that a bigger engine equals more fuel is only true
for cars, airplanes have a choice..:)
As for me I went with and IO360 (180HP plus FF induction). The idea is
to run the motor on autofuel (I have a bit different pumping system) and there
is a $1 per gallon saving right there.
Frank
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TylerB
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:40 AM
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
As I am now evaluating engines for my RV7A build, I would appreciate
advice on this selection. The questions are more about weight than horsepower.
If I compare the IO360M1XX 180 HP to the IO360 - 200 HP and the IO390 -210 HP
in the terms of Weight, actual produced HP, fuel consumption, hot starting tendencies,
and overall performance in climb, airspeed etc. I cannot see a reason
to spend $5000-$10000 more for anything beyond the 180 HP built to maximize
perfomance. All three engines will take the airplane past Vne, the bigger two
use significantly more fuel, and if have ever tried to hot start one of the angle
valve engines you understand. The 200 HP weighs 30 # more and the 390-210
weighs 40 # more than that. Both burn 10-13 GPH at cruise where the 180 burns
8 or less. Even at $4.10 a gallon the cost savings alone are significant. Am I
missing something here?
Tyler, N537TM
Dan Checkoway wrote:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage/pressReleases/july02/mostPowerfulFourCylinder.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189629-1.html
There are apparently 11 shops which are now approved by Lycoming to do 390 build-ups. I would definitely talk to AeroSport Power (www.aerosportpower.com) and Mattituck (www.mattituck.com), and shop around to other build-up shops.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Dan,
This is of course true, the cowling can be replaced being the least
expensive item. Being new to he building process I've not heard of the 390
version. Where can I get some info ?.
Regards - Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Paul,
My personal choice for an engine is exactly what I have on my plane,
the IO-360-A1B6. I'm studying the IO-390 as well, and I look forward to
seeing whether it really lives up to the claims. I wonder whether the 390 will
be capable of achieving the same degree of economy as the IO-360-A1B6.
In any case, if you have the 180hp cowling, the angle valve engine
most likely won't fit, so I'd recommend using a parallel valve 180hp variant.
But to me it seems kinda silly to pick an engine based on which cowling you
have, rather than vice versa.
So it's hard for me to make a recommendation. Which powerplant
do you WANT?
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Thanks Dan,
I have studied your site so it was nice to hear from the man
him self.
I'm not sure that there would be to many wanting to trade down
here in Australia, how ever if need be I may purchase a new cowl if it is to
big a task to alter the one I have. Which engine would be you choice for my 7A
?.
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Charlie already covered the mount thing.
I suspect you could sell or trade the cowling if you didn't want to get into modifications. Seems like I see a cowling trade mentioned about once a month or so on the lists & forums. Try posting to the forums at http://www.vansairforce.net.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:15 PM
Subject: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Hi guys,
Glad to post my first question to the group, and is as follows.
When ordering my kit I selected the engine mount and cowl
for the 180 hp io 360. My question is can I at this point choose to change to
the 200 hp model and then alter the cowling to remove air intake snorkel later
and glass repair. Or is the whole engine mount for the 200hp a different configuration.
Thanks guys
Paul Walter
Message 5
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|
| Subject: | exp2v bus dc load |
Hi !there is anyone with an experience with EXP2VBUS dc load center kit,and van's
-es wh7kit (wire harness).integration between both of kits.Best regards i.perry.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: exp2v bus dc load |
----- Original Message -----
From: i.perry@lipogen.co.il
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:46 PM
Subject: RV7-List: exp2v bus dc load
Hi !there is anyone with an experience with EXP2VBUS dc load center kit,and van's
-es wh7kit (wire harness).integration between both kits.Best regards i.perry.
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Re: exp2v bus dc load |
we used the x-bus and also bought the electric wiring kit from van's. I was able
to use most of what came with the wiring kit and it served as a good starting
point for the wiring. I t also had some basic wiring diagrams that helped.
I did take the wiring harness apart but used all of the wire, and bought alot
more.
Pete DeCraene
N526PD
----- Original Message -----
From: i.perry@lipogen.co.il
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 3:46 PM
Subject: RV7-List: exp2v bus dc load
Hi !there is anyone with an experience with EXP2VBUS dc load center kit,and van's
-es wh7kit (wire harness).integration between both of kits.Best regards i.perry.
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Re: Right Elevator |
<96ECC502D2678A4192F48386A524718D02CF0E43@cacexc07.americas.cpqcorp.net>
<006001c5d33c$034e78a0$0700a8c0@hole> <43540C1E.3030903@infoave.net>
<002001c5d35f$83aa3110$0700a8c0@hole> <000c01c5d3bd$90a46620$0100000a@PDWALTER>
Paul,
Yes, the counterbalance skin is dimpled for flush head rivets as well as dimpled
for the bolts that hold the counterweight in place. The counterweight is countersunk
to accomodate the large dimples for the bolts. You're doing fine...
Jon Elford
RV-7 N294CD Reserved
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:25 AM
Subject: RV7-List: Re: Right Elevator
Hi Dan,
When preparing the right elevator I have dimpled skin. I then intern dimpled
all holes in E-703 end rib and E - 704 counter balance rib. How ever as the E
- 713 counter balance skin fits over these holding the counterweight, I am not
sure if this was the correct construction method.
Do I intern dimple the counter balance skin and use flush head rivets ?.
I'm having some grief with this and I have to tackle the left elevator complete
with trim tab next !!.
thanks Dan
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
My 200hp angle valve injected engine is easy to hot start. No, it's not as
easy as a carb'd engine, that's for sure. It definitely takes more blades to
kick. But it's no problem, assuming you know the technique.
I use the Airflow Performance purge valve. I also have a single Lightspeed
Plasma II electronic ignition. These things can't hurt.
A 200hp injected engine versus a 180hp injected engine...they should behave
identically with respect to hot start traits.
Did you have balanced injectors on your Cardinal when you ran LOP? Were they
balanced so that EGTs peaked on all 4 cylinders within about 0.1gph of each
other? Was the prop dynamically balanced? Seems like you're confident that
LOP operation was the cause of the crank case fracture...curious about that.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: TylerB
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
I don't intend to run mogas in my engine. And the 180 will be a std. compression
which will keep the CHT more in line. Also probably will not run lean
of peak either. Did that on a Cardinal with the 200 angle valve and it did not
last to 2000TBO. Fractured at 1250 hrs at the same spot the crank case did before.
When I said tuned for best performance I meant flow matched , Horizontal
cold air, dual electronic ignitions, injectors done by AirFlow.
Dan, do you have to say a little prayer and do a little rain dance before
cranking hot on your 200. I sure had to on the Cardinal
Tyler N537TM
Dan Checkoway wrote:
Rocket...240 knots? Not. The HR-II drivers I know get around 180 KTAS
burning 11-12gph.
I get 180 KTAS on ~10gph.
But I agree with the rest of your points. The angle valve engine is more
efficient at every turn. Worth the extra bucks? To me, absolutely. But obviously
not to most people, who are content running a less efficient powerplant
which has less cooling fin area. Which one is gonna make it to TBO and beyond...the
hopped-up 180hp parallel valve running around 400F on CHT for its life,
or the kicked-back 8.7:1 angle valve running at or below 300F on the CHTs?
Savings, schmavings.
What compression ratio are you gonna run on your IO-360 with auto fuel?
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:14 AM
Subject: RE: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
I think the idea that the bigger engines burn more fuel is not quite
right. Essentially an engine in say 120HP cruise will burn the same amount of
fuel set up at the same mixture point. You have to look at the BFSC numbers which
tell you how much fuel is burned for how much HP is produced at various mixture
and power settings. Think you'll find they are all about the same.
Note Dan Checkoway gets avout 7.5 GPH on an angle Valved IO360 when trimmed
lean of peak.
Even the HArmon rocket guys get like 240knots at very low fuel consumption
when trimmed to LOP cruise and that is an IO540.
So I think the idea that a bigger engine equals more fuel is only true
for cars, airplanes have a choice..:)
As for me I went with and IO360 (180HP plus FF induction). The idea is
to run the motor on autofuel (I have a bit different pumping system) and there
is a $1 per gallon saving right there.
Frank
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TylerB
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 6:40 AM
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
As I am now evaluating engines for my RV7A build, I would appreciate
advice on this selection. The questions are more about weight than horsepower.
If I compare the IO360M1XX 180 HP to the IO360 - 200 HP and the IO390 -210 HP
in the terms of Weight, actual produced HP, fuel consumption, hot starting tendencies,
and overall performance in climb, airspeed etc. I cannot see a reason
to spend $5000-$10000 more for anything beyond the 180 HP built to maximize
perfomance. All three engines will take the airplane past Vne, the bigger two
use significantly more fuel, and if have ever tried to hot start one of the angle
valve engines you understand. The 200 HP weighs 30 # more and the 390-210
weighs 40 # more than that. Both burn 10-13 GPH at cruise where the 180 burns
8 or less. Even at $4.10 a gallon the cost savings alone are significant. Am I
missing something here?
Tyler, N537TM
Dan Checkoway wrote:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage/pressReleases/july02/mostPowerfulFourCylinder.html
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189629-1.html
There are apparently 11 shops which are now approved by Lycoming to do 390 build-ups. I would definitely talk to AeroSport Power (www.aerosportpower.com) and Mattituck (www.mattituck.com), and shop around to other build-up shops.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Dan,
This is of course true, the cowling can be replaced being the least
expensive item. Being new to he building process I've not heard of the 390
version. Where can I get some info ?.
Regards - Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Paul,
My personal choice for an engine is exactly what I have on my plane,
the IO-360-A1B6. I'm studying the IO-390 as well, and I look forward to
seeing whether it really lives up to the claims. I wonder whether the 390 will
be capable of achieving the same degree of economy as the IO-360-A1B6.
In any case, if you have the 180hp cowling, the angle valve engine
most likely won't fit, so I'd recommend using a parallel valve 180hp variant.
But to me it seems kinda silly to pick an engine based on which cowling you
have, rather than vice versa.
So it's hard for me to make a recommendation. Which powerplant
do you WANT?
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Thanks Dan,
I have studied your site so it was nice to hear from the man
him self.
I'm not sure that there would be to many wanting to trade down
here in Australia, how ever if need be I may purchase a new cowl if it is to
big a task to alter the one I have. Which engine would be you choice for my 7A
?.
Paul Walter
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Checkoway
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Charlie already covered the mount thing.
I suspect you could sell or trade the cowling if you didn't want to get into modifications. Seems like I see a cowling trade mentioned about once a month or so on the lists & forums. Try posting to the forums at http://www.vansairforce.net.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walter
To: rv7-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:15 PM
Subject: RV7-List: Engine - cowling
Hi guys,
Glad to post my first question to the group, and is as follows.
When ordering my kit I selected the engine mount and cowl
for the 180 hp io 360. My question is can I at this point choose to change to
the 200 hp model and then alter the cowling to remove air intake snorkel later
and glass repair. Or is the whole engine mount for the 200hp a different configuration.
Thanks guys
Paul Walter
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