Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:30 AM - Re: Pitot tube? (Vern W.)
2. 06:00 AM - Re: Pitot tube? (Dwight Frye)
3. 07:18 AM - Re: Pitot tube? (Dan Checkoway)
4. 07:44 AM - Re: Pitot tube? (Mark Conover)
5. 06:08 PM - Re: Pitot tube? (Imken)
Message 1
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Absolutely, Mark, and I was waiting for someone else to point this out. I
didn't want to mention it myself because my IFR rating is in the future and
I will be flying light IFR in my '7A so perhaps I'm not considered qualified
to say this. And before the argument about "light" IFR gets started again,
it simply means (to me) a personal requirement for much higher minimums and
a mental attitude that more quickly allows a cancellation or diversion from
flight plan.
But I don't get the fascination with a heated pitot tube in an RV if one is
going to have an IFR GPS on board. At altitude, if you lose your pitot
intput from ice, your GPS will be plenty accurate to keep you safe. I'd
worry more about ice on wings and prop and get myself out of there as
quickly as possible. If you're blind and at altitude and neither you nor
your FAA weather helpers can find some clear air for you to head for, then
as far as I'm concerned, that's a flight you should have made in a fully
booted aircraft anyway.
For landing, using GPS airspeed and your usual power and flap settings for
putting the wheels on the runway will get you down albeit a little fast if
you want to be on the safe side. If you get to 100 feet off the ground on
approach and can't see the ground during your actual landing, you got a lot
more problems than an AWOL pitot tube.
Vern
On 2/8/06, Mark Conover <markc@conotech.com> wrote:
>
> --> RV7-List message posted by: Mark Conover <markc@conotech.com>
>
> (pardon while I briefly veer a bit off topic)
>
> Say, Imken, do you fly in the US Southeast? I'm curious about
> instrument flying in the various parts of North America. Do you get
> much ice at lower altitudes? While I flew VFR in Texas a lot, my
> experience with IMC has so far been restricted to the Pacific Northwest,
> having moved to Seattle ten years ago. Our wx briefings routinely
> refer to some amount of ice in the forecast; so, we tend to have a keen
> interest in pireps.
>
> (returning to topic)
>
> As to whether to even bother with pitot heat if your airplane can't shed
> ice, I figure the pitot tube will plug up before flying surfaces are
> affected. If in IMC, I sure would prefer not to lose the airspeed
> indicator. Perhaps in these days of GPS, losing the airspeed
> indicator when at altitude is not as dicey as it once was.
>
>
Message 2
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--> RV7-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
On Wed Feb 8 01:23:34 2006, Mark Conover wrote :
>[ ... snip ... ]
>As to whether to even bother with pitot heat if your airplane can't shed
>ice, I figure the pitot tube will plug up before flying surfaces are
>affected. If in IMC, I sure would prefer not to lose the airspeed
>indicator. Perhaps in these days of GPS, losing the airspeed
>indicator when at altitude is not as dicey as it once was.
Just my $0.02 worth ... I agree that a pitot will ice up before the flying
surfaces do, and I do NOT want to be in IMC with no airspeed. Your thought
about a GPS replacing the pitot/AS is interesting ... but I'm not sure it
is valid.
If you have ever had to practice using needle/ball/airspeed for recovery
from an unusual attitude you'll remember how critical that AS is to getting
the plane back under control. I am not sure it would be possible with the
-lag- you get from the GPS. I fear that lag might cause repeated overshoot
of the horizon and make the situation unsavable.
Furthermore, the GPS shows groundspeed and NOT airspeed, so it isn't measuring
the right thing anyway. That makes me feel the suggestions that you can use
GPS as an approach speed reference (remember, we are talking about a pitot
failing due to ice in IMC) are questionable to me. It would work if you knew
the winds and made the right adjustment .... but .... if you have a strong
head/tail wind the speeds on the GPS, without adjustment, are NOT going to
be right. If you are flying any non-precision approach I don't see how you
could possibly get (for instance) the missed approach point timed correctly
if time was the only way to identify the miss.
Obviously, if you are stuck with the GPS as the only speed reference then you
do what you can. Do remember what it is actually measuring before using the
numbers blindly though.
I'm putting in a heated pitot even if it costs me. I'm also putting in a
traditional ASI and altimeter, and will be using a TruTrak AP head as a
turn coordinator. This will be to back up a Dynon as I (being a software
engineer myself) don't yet trust the electronic goodies *totally*.
Again, this is just my $0.02 worth. Everyone has to assess their own level
of risk and how much of that risk they are willing to accept. Me ... I'm a
cautious pilot and it shows.
-- Dwight (do not archive)
Message 3
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--> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
At the risk of repeating myself, if you're flying with an EFIS, if the pitot
ices over it may not just be airspeed that you lose. You might lose
reliable attitude indication as well (ouch!). Find out if your EFIS is
dependent on airspeed and what it will do if airspeed goes away. If it will
do bad things, then I would consider pitot heat even more valuable in that
case than if you just have steam gauges.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (812 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dwight Frye" <dwight@openweave.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 6:03 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Pitot tube?
> --> RV7-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
>
> On Wed Feb 8 01:23:34 2006, Mark Conover wrote :
>>[ ... snip ... ]
>>As to whether to even bother with pitot heat if your airplane can't shed
>>ice, I figure the pitot tube will plug up before flying surfaces are
>>affected. If in IMC, I sure would prefer not to lose the airspeed
>>indicator. Perhaps in these days of GPS, losing the airspeed
>>indicator when at altitude is not as dicey as it once was.
>
> Just my $0.02 worth ... I agree that a pitot will ice up before the flying
> surfaces do, and I do NOT want to be in IMC with no airspeed. Your thought
> about a GPS replacing the pitot/AS is interesting ... but I'm not sure it
> is valid.
>
> If you have ever had to practice using needle/ball/airspeed for recovery
> from an unusual attitude you'll remember how critical that AS is to
> getting
> the plane back under control. I am not sure it would be possible with the
> -lag- you get from the GPS. I fear that lag might cause repeated overshoot
> of the horizon and make the situation unsavable.
>
> Furthermore, the GPS shows groundspeed and NOT airspeed, so it isn't
> measuring
> the right thing anyway. That makes me feel the suggestions that you can
> use
> GPS as an approach speed reference (remember, we are talking about a pitot
> failing due to ice in IMC) are questionable to me. It would work if you
> knew
> the winds and made the right adjustment .... but .... if you have a strong
> head/tail wind the speeds on the GPS, without adjustment, are NOT going to
> be right. If you are flying any non-precision approach I don't see how you
> could possibly get (for instance) the missed approach point timed
> correctly
> if time was the only way to identify the miss.
>
> Obviously, if you are stuck with the GPS as the only speed reference then
> you
> do what you can. Do remember what it is actually measuring before using
> the
> numbers blindly though.
>
> I'm putting in a heated pitot even if it costs me. I'm also putting in a
> traditional ASI and altimeter, and will be using a TruTrak AP head as a
> turn coordinator. This will be to back up a Dynon as I (being a software
> engineer myself) don't yet trust the electronic goodies *totally*.
>
> Again, this is just my $0.02 worth. Everyone has to assess their own level
> of risk and how much of that risk they are willing to accept. Me ... I'm a
> cautious pilot and it shows.
>
> -- Dwight (do not archive)
>
>
>
Message 4
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--> RV7-List message posted by: Mark Conover <markc@conotech.com>
Dwight Frye wrote:
>--> RV7-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
>Just my $0.02 worth ... I agree that a pitot will ice up before the flying
>
>
>surfaces do, and I do NOT want to be in IMC with no airspeed. Your thought
>about a GPS replacing the pitot/AS is interesting ... but I'm not sure it
>is valid.
>
>If you have ever had to practice using needle/ball/airspeed for recovery
>from an unusual attitude you'll remember how critical that AS is to getting
>the plane back under control. I am not sure it would be possible with the
>-lag- you get from the GPS. I fear that lag might cause repeated overshoot
>of the horizon and make the situation unsavable.
>
>Furthermore, the GPS shows groundspeed and NOT airspeed, so it isn't measuring
>the right thing anyway. That makes me feel the suggestions that you can use
>GPS as an approach speed reference (remember, we are talking about a pitot
>failing due to ice in IMC) are questionable to me. It would work if you knew
>the winds and made the right adjustment .... but .... if you have a strong
>head/tail wind the speeds on the GPS, without adjustment, are NOT going to
>be right. If you are flying any non-precision approach I don't see how you
>could possibly get (for instance) the missed approach point timed correctly
>if time was the only way to identify the miss.
>
>Obviously, if you are stuck with the GPS as the only speed reference then you
>do what you can. Do remember what it is actually measuring before using the
>numbers blindly though.
>
>I'm putting in a heated pitot even if it costs me. I'm also putting in a
>traditional ASI and altimeter, and will be using a TruTrak AP head as a
>turn coordinator. This will be to back up a Dynon as I (being a software
>engineer myself) don't yet trust the electronic goodies *totally*.
>
>Again, this is just my $0.02 worth. Everyone has to assess their own level
>of risk and how much of that risk they are willing to accept. Me ... I'm a
>cautious pilot and it shows.
>
> -- Dwight (do not archive)
>
>
>
Dwight, like you, I'll be installing a heated pitot tube. The cost is
certainly worth it to me.
About ten years ago, I had a GPS failure exactly when I really needed it
most. I had stupidly flown into a bad storm -- an experience which
provoked my getting an instrument rating. As a new arrival to the
Seattle area, I did not realize how very quickly autumn storms can move
into this region. Unlike the wide open spaces of my native Texas, it's
easy to get stuck between the nasty storms moving in from Puget Sound
and the Cascade mountain range.
Also being a techno geek by trade (and general nature), I like pairing
the latest gadgets that are now available at a pretty low cost (I can't
believe how inexpensive is the TruTrak), with traditional steam gauges.
-Mark
Message 5
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--> RV7-List message posted by: "Imken" <skikrazi@CenturyTel.net>
I agree with Dan that losing reliable attitude indication can be an ouch.
If my 430 and Grand Rapids EFIS ever do go belly up, for backup I use
Control Vision's Anywhere Map, Anywhere Attitude, and Anywhere Weather and
know of one pilot who used it to get out of IMC when he had a complete power
failure. The Control Vision stuff has about a two-hour separate battery.
Chuck
N735RV
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Pitot tube?
--> RV7-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
At the risk of repeating myself, if you're flying with an EFIS, if the pitot
ices over it may not just be airspeed that you lose. You might lose
reliable attitude indication as well (ouch!). Find out if your EFIS is
dependent on airspeed and what it will do if airspeed goes away. If it will
do bad things, then I would consider pitot heat even more valuable in that
case than if you just have steam gauges.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (812 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dwight Frye" <dwight@openweave.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 6:03 AM
Subject: Re: RV7-List: Pitot tube?
> --> RV7-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
>
> On Wed Feb 8 01:23:34 2006, Mark Conover wrote :
>>[ ... snip ... ]
>>As to whether to even bother with pitot heat if your airplane can't shed
>>ice, I figure the pitot tube will plug up before flying surfaces are
>>affected. If in IMC, I sure would prefer not to lose the airspeed
>>indicator. Perhaps in these days of GPS, losing the airspeed
>>indicator when at altitude is not as dicey as it once was.
>
> Just my $0.02 worth ... I agree that a pitot will ice up before the flying
> surfaces do, and I do NOT want to be in IMC with no airspeed. Your thought
> about a GPS replacing the pitot/AS is interesting ... but I'm not sure it
> is valid.
>
> If you have ever had to practice using needle/ball/airspeed for recovery
> from an unusual attitude you'll remember how critical that AS is to
> getting
> the plane back under control. I am not sure it would be possible with the
> -lag- you get from the GPS. I fear that lag might cause repeated overshoot
> of the horizon and make the situation unsavable.
>
> Furthermore, the GPS shows groundspeed and NOT airspeed, so it isn't
> measuring
> the right thing anyway. That makes me feel the suggestions that you can
> use
> GPS as an approach speed reference (remember, we are talking about a pitot
> failing due to ice in IMC) are questionable to me. It would work if you
> knew
> the winds and made the right adjustment .... but .... if you have a strong
> head/tail wind the speeds on the GPS, without adjustment, are NOT going to
> be right. If you are flying any non-precision approach I don't see how you
> could possibly get (for instance) the missed approach point timed
> correctly
> if time was the only way to identify the miss.
>
> Obviously, if you are stuck with the GPS as the only speed reference then
> you
> do what you can. Do remember what it is actually measuring before using
> the
> numbers blindly though.
>
> I'm putting in a heated pitot even if it costs me. I'm also putting in a
> traditional ASI and altimeter, and will be using a TruTrak AP head as a
> turn coordinator. This will be to back up a Dynon as I (being a software
> engineer myself) don't yet trust the electronic goodies *totally*.
>
> Again, this is just my $0.02 worth. Everyone has to assess their own level
> of risk and how much of that risk they are willing to accept. Me ... I'm a
> cautious pilot and it shows.
>
> -- Dwight (do not archive)
>
>
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