Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:46 AM - Re: Titan (Tad Sargent)
2. 05:54 AM - ECI Titan engines ()
3. 06:00 AM - Fw: ECI Titan engines ()
4. 01:32 PM - Elec trim with manual trimhorn (Alf Olav Frog)
Message 1
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|
Paul, I fly the ECI Titan component engine, assembled by Penn Yann Aero. In
a word, Flawless.
Regards
Tad Sargent 302 hours 7A 18 months
FFI Wingman
_____
From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Walter
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 8:03 PM
Subject: RV7-List: Titan
I am considering a 180hp titan engine for my 7A. Can anyone on the list
expand on these thoughts or provide me with positive/negative input on this
range of engines.
Thank you
Paul Walter
Message 2
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| Subject: | ECI Titan engines |
Hello Mark,
I purchased the ECI Titan kit (188 HP at 2700 RPMs)...basic O-360-B1A
(hollow crank). The short of it... I have not started the engine as of yet
but am happy with the build. I asked John Sjaardema (Excel Air in
Rensselaer, IN at the airport), www.excelairservices.com) my builder to take
on the engine build...customer assisted (a plug for John). I basically
built the engine myself with help from John and his certified A&Ps (work
space, knowledge, parts, tools, etc.). Spent about 2 weeks part time
building the engine and everything looked good...the entire kit was within
specs (a few exceptions), and John is very particular about clearances and
so forth. I probably spent 2 days with the micrometers.
Exceptions: there were 3 tapped holes in the case that were not all of the
way thru and would not accept a full-length bolt; but we modified the bolts
and were acceptable to John. Also, 3 exhaust valve rocker arms were not
within the dry-tappet specs in the Lycoming manuals (John's specs...minimum
0.030 clearance) but ECI made the fixes at their facility--ECI sent them
back, I installed them and were perfect (0.035). John and I were happy with
the build. John also painted the engine. I also replaced the cork gaskets
with a better quality gasket for the valve covers--the cork material tends
to leak. I also replaced the adjustable oil pressure part with a manual one
(adjustable with washers)...the adjustable part tends to leak also.
My engine situation: Precision Fuel Injection (reman Bendix-style servo--no
fuel tank return requirements), vertical induction (I like the snorkel
look...more distinctive and more effective air flow), fixed pitch prop from
Sensenich and of course the Titan cylinders. The case is mfg by ECI and
most of the parts but the crankshaft and camshaft are Lycoming products...I
believe (experimental); not sure on that. I also purchased a new SkyTech
starter for the engine and the FWF kit from Van's which is mostly done. I
purchased the kit, Slick mags (dual coupling) and a few other parts (fuel
pump) from A.E.R.O., Inc. Their pricing was very competitive and they sold
the new mags basically at their cost (www.aeroinstock.com, Grant City, IL)
who is also a builder. POC is Jesse Robinson. Sorry for the plugs.
Hope to fireup the engine next month.
Ron Fearnow
-7A, wrapping up the slider canopy....hopefully this week
----- Original Message -----
From: "RV7-List Digest Server" <rv7-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, 10 August, 2007 2:57 AM
Subject: RV7-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 08/09/07
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
> Today's complete RV7-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the RV7-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 07-08-09&Archive=RV7
>
> Text Version:
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 07-08-09&Archive=RV7
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> RV7-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Thu 08/09/07: 4
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 04:26 AM - Re: Elevator trim rigging (Rafael)
> 2. 05:04 PM - Titan (Paul Walter)
> 3. 05:20 PM - Re: Titan (Mark Taylor)
> 4. 08:41 PM - Re: Titan (Carlos A Hernandez)
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 04:26:26 AM PST US
> From: "Rafael" <rafael@gforcecable.com>
> Subject: RE: RV7-List: Elevator trim rigging
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> That's what it is and it looks like it will do fine.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Rafael
>
> RV7A Just finishing the empennage.
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Cudney
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:49 AM
> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Elevator trim rigging
>
>
> Rafael:
>
>
> I just got back from a trip and saw your question about the trim travel.
> I
> measured mine today and it is very close to your measurement. I have 20.3
> up trim (down movement of the trim tab) and 24.8 down trim (up movement of
> the trim tab) for a total of 45.3. As I recall from the last RV that I
> flew you use very little of the trim tab to adjust for approach speed and
> curse. I see no method of getting more travel without changing the trim
> servo. Maybe someone else has a method to get more travel from the servo.
>
>
> good luck
>
> dave
>
> RV 7A
>
> Starting on the cowling
>
>
> On Aug 4, 2007, at 7:54 AM, Rafael wrote:
>
>
> Thanks again, John for your suggestion.
>
>
> I bent the rod a few degrees and that worked very well. It not only gave
> me
> good clearance, but I was also to correct for the slight miss-alignment.
>
>
> I now have another question: I measure a trim control of 20.6 degrees up
> trim max. and 23.2 degrees down trim max. Van's figures, on section 15:
> Flight Controls, call for Maximum up/down of 25-35 degrees. That implies
> to
> me that a minimum travel of 50 degrees is necessary. I'm getting 43.8
> degrees, so there's no way to meet these numbers. It's all that the motor
> actuator will give.
>
>
> Any comments as to what's going on?
>
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
>
> Rafael
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rafael
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:58 PM
> Subject: RE: RV7-List: Elevator trim rigging
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> That makes a lot of sense. It's definitely less traumatic than removing
> al
> that aluminum.
>
>
> I'll try it.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Rafael
>
>
> _____
>
> From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of J. Brunke
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 11:04 PM
> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Elevator trim rigging
>
>
> Dear Rafael,
>
>
> I had the same problem, till a more experienced builder told me to put a
> bend in the threaded rod.
>
>
> It will lift it just slightly and should give you a little more breathing
> room.
>
> Hope that works for you. Sorry I don't have a photo close by to send.
>
>
> John Brunke
>
> RV7 in progress
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: <mailto:rafael@gforcecable.com> Rafael
>
>
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 6:22 PM
>
> Subject: RV7-List: Elevator trim rigging
>
>
> Hi folks!
>
>
> I would appreciate some help. I'm trying to rig up the electric trim and
> find that I need to trim away quite a bit of metal to eliminate
> interference
> for the full down trim.
>
>
> I followed Van's instructions regarding the positioning of the trim motor
> mount. As you can see from the pictures, though still within the opening
> footprint,
>
> the actuating rod turned out pretty close to the inboard edge. (I thought
> about centering the mounts at the time, but decided to trust the plans.)
>
>
> After installing the trim system, there is a slight miss-alignment, but
> nothing that would cause stress in the system. I made some marks on the
> max, min, and half-way travel of the actuating rod. I then adjusted the
> length for no trim at the half-way point.
>
>
> What worries me most is the amount of metal I have to file out to prevent
> the actuating rod from contacting the elevator under max down trim. As
> you
> can see, I've already removed quite a bit of Aluminum. I hesitate to trim
> further without some reassurance.
>
>
> Van's builder's assistance is closed for the weekend, so I thought I would
> seek y'alls' help (I recently moved to Aiken, SC, and I'm learning the
> local
> grammar ;))
>
>
> Thanks and best regards,
>
>
> Rafael
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV7-List">http://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?RV7-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV7-List>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV7-List
> <http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space">
> --> <http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:04:16 PM PST US
> From: "Paul Walter" <pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
> Subject: RV7-List: Titan
>
> I am considering a 180hp titan engine for my 7A. Can anyone on the list
> expand on these thoughts or provide me with positive/negative input on
> this range of engines.
>
> Thank you
>
> Paul Walter
>
> ________________________________ Message 3
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 05:20:59 PM PST US
> From: Mark Taylor <mtaylo17@msn.com>
> Subject: RE: RV7-List: Titan
>
> I have a TMX IOF-360 from Mattituck with Titan cylinders. The rest of my
> en
> gine is Superior Air Parts. I'm up to 115 hours now, and they've been
> fine.
> My TBO is 2400hrs!
>
> Mark.
>
>
> From: pdwalter@bigpond.net.auTo: rv7-list@matronics.comSubject: RV7-List:
> T
> itanDate: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:03:16 +1000
>
>
> I am considering a 180hp titan engine for my 7A. Can anyone on the list
> exp
> and on these thoughts or provide me with positive/negative input on this
> ra
> nge of engines.
>
> Thank you
>
> Paul Walter
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4
> _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 08:41:14 PM PST US
> From: Carlos A Hernandez <carlosh@sec-engr.com>
> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Titan
>
>
> The guy to talk to is Robbie Attaway at www.attawayair.com. He's an RV6
> builder and also a Titan engine builder. ou can see more on his site.
> He's built several engines for people such as Mark Chamberlain and
> Darwin Barrie (Phoenix area). I spoke with him a few months back after
> his EAA presentation about the engines. I was on the fence until I spoke
> with him about it. Now I'm just waiting (actually still building and
> saving) for ECi to come out with a stroked IO-360! Yeah baby!
>
> Carlos in AZ
> RV-7A
> N174PP reserved
>
> Paul Walter wrote:
>> I am considering a 180hp titan engine for my 7A. Can anyone on the
>> list expand on these thoughts or provide me with positive/negative
>> input on this range of engines.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> Paul Walter
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 3
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|
| Subject: | Fw: ECI Titan engines |
Mark, forgot the photo...
Ron F.
----- Original Message -----
From: <colfearnow@earthlink.net>
Cc: <mtaylo17@msn.com>
Sent: Sunday, 12 August, 2007 8:53 AM
Subject: ECI Titan engines
> Hello Mark,
> I purchased the ECI Titan kit (188 HP at 2700 RPMs)...basic O-360-B1A
> (hollow crank). The short of it... I have not started the engine as of
> yet but am happy with the build. I asked John Sjaardema (Excel Air in
> Rensselaer, IN at the airport), www.excelairservices.com) my builder to
> take on the engine build...customer assisted (a plug for John). I
> basically built the engine myself with help from John and his certified
> A&Ps (work space, knowledge, parts, tools, etc.). Spent about 2 weeks
> part time building the engine and everything looked good...the entire kit
> was within specs (a few exceptions), and John is very particular about
> clearances and so forth. I probably spent 2 days with the micrometers.
>
> Exceptions: there were 3 tapped holes in the case that were not all of
> the way thru and would not accept a full-length bolt; but we modified the
> bolts and were acceptable to John. Also, 3 exhaust valve rocker arms were
> not within the dry-tappet specs in the Lycoming manuals (John's
> specs...minimum 0.030 clearance) but ECI made the fixes at their
> facility--ECI sent them back, I installed them and were perfect (0.035).
> John and I were happy with the build. John also painted the engine. I
> also replaced the cork gaskets with a better quality gasket for the valve
> covers--the cork material tends to leak. I also replaced the adjustable
> oil pressure part with a manual one (adjustable with washers)...the
> adjustable part tends to leak also.
>
> My engine situation: Precision Fuel Injection (reman Bendix-style
> servo--no fuel tank return requirements), vertical induction (I like the
> snorkel look...more distinctive and more effective air flow), fixed pitch
> prop from Sensenich and of course the Titan cylinders. The case is mfg by
> ECI and most of the parts but the crankshaft and camshaft are Lycoming
> products...I believe (experimental); not sure on that. I also purchased
> a new SkyTech starter for the engine and the FWF kit from Van's which is
> mostly done. I purchased the kit, Slick mags (dual coupling) and a few
> other parts (fuel pump) from A.E.R.O., Inc. Their pricing was very
> competitive and they sold the new mags basically at their cost
> (www.aeroinstock.com, Grant City, IL) who is also a builder. POC is
> Jesse Robinson. Sorry for the plugs.
> Hope to fireup the engine next month.
> Ron Fearnow
> -7A, wrapping up the slider canopy....hopefully this week
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RV7-List Digest Server" <rv7-list@matronics.com>
> To: "RV7-List Digest List" <rv7-list-digest@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, 10 August, 2007 2:57 AM
> Subject: RV7-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 08/09/07
>
>
>> *
>>
>> =================================================
>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
>> =================================================
>>
>> Today's complete RV7-List Digest can also be found in either of the
>> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>> of the RV7-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
>> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>>
>> HTML Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 07-08-09&Archive=RV7
>>
>> Text Version:
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 07-08-09&Archive=RV7
>>
>>
>> ===============================================
>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
>> ===============================================
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> RV7-List Digest Archive
>> ---
>> Total Messages Posted Thu 08/09/07: 4
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> Today's Message Index:
>> ----------------------
>>
>> 1. 04:26 AM - Re: Elevator trim rigging (Rafael)
>> 2. 05:04 PM - Titan (Paul Walter)
>> 3. 05:20 PM - Re: Titan (Mark Taylor)
>> 4. 08:41 PM - Re: Titan (Carlos A Hernandez)
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 1
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> Time: 04:26:26 AM PST US
>> From: "Rafael" <rafael@gforcecable.com>
>> Subject: RE: RV7-List: Elevator trim rigging
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>> That's what it is and it looks like it will do fine.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>> Rafael
>>
>> RV7A Just finishing the empennage.
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Cudney
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Elevator trim rigging
>>
>>
>> Rafael:
>>
>>
>> I just got back from a trip and saw your question about the trim travel.
>> I
>> measured mine today and it is very close to your measurement. I have
>> 20.3
>> up trim (down movement of the trim tab) and 24.8 down trim (up movement
>> of
>> the trim tab) for a total of 45.3. As I recall from the last RV that I
>> flew you use very little of the trim tab to adjust for approach speed and
>> curse. I see no method of getting more travel without changing the trim
>> servo. Maybe someone else has a method to get more travel from the servo.
>>
>>
>> good luck
>>
>> dave
>>
>> RV 7A
>>
>> Starting on the cowling
>>
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2007, at 7:54 AM, Rafael wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks again, John for your suggestion.
>>
>>
>> I bent the rod a few degrees and that worked very well. It not only gave
>> me
>> good clearance, but I was also to correct for the slight miss-alignment.
>>
>>
>> I now have another question: I measure a trim control of 20.6 degrees up
>> trim max. and 23.2 degrees down trim max. Van's figures, on section 15:
>> Flight Controls, call for Maximum up/down of 25-35 degrees. That implies
>> to
>> me that a minimum travel of 50 degrees is necessary. I'm getting 43.8
>> degrees, so there's no way to meet these numbers. It's all that the
>> motor
>> actuator will give.
>>
>>
>> Any comments as to what's going on?
>>
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>>
>>
>> Rafael
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rafael
>> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 10:58 PM
>> Subject: RE: RV7-List: Elevator trim rigging
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>> That makes a lot of sense. It's definitely less traumatic than removing
>> al
>> that aluminum.
>>
>>
>> I'll try it.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Rafael
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of J. Brunke
>> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 11:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Elevator trim rigging
>>
>>
>> Dear Rafael,
>>
>>
>> I had the same problem, till a more experienced builder told me to put a
>> bend in the threaded rod.
>>
>>
>> It will lift it just slightly and should give you a little more breathing
>> room.
>>
>> Hope that works for you. Sorry I don't have a photo close by to send.
>>
>>
>> John Brunke
>>
>> RV7 in progress
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: <mailto:rafael@gforcecable.com> Rafael
>>
>>
>> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 6:22 PM
>>
>> Subject: RV7-List: Elevator trim rigging
>>
>>
>> Hi folks!
>>
>>
>> I would appreciate some help. I'm trying to rig up the electric trim and
>> find that I need to trim away quite a bit of metal to eliminate
>> interference
>> for the full down trim.
>>
>>
>> I followed Van's instructions regarding the positioning of the trim motor
>> mount. As you can see from the pictures, though still within the opening
>> footprint,
>>
>> the actuating rod turned out pretty close to the inboard edge. (I
>> thought
>> about centering the mounts at the time, but decided to trust the plans.)
>>
>>
>> After installing the trim system, there is a slight miss-alignment, but
>> nothing that would cause stress in the system. I made some marks on the
>> max, min, and half-way travel of the actuating rod. I then adjusted the
>> length for no trim at the half-way point.
>>
>>
>> What worries me most is the amount of metal I have to file out to prevent
>> the actuating rod from contacting the elevator under max down trim. As
>> you
>> can see, I've already removed quite a bit of Aluminum. I hesitate to
>> trim
>> further without some reassurance.
>>
>>
>> Van's builder's assistance is closed for the weekend, so I thought I
>> would
>> seek y'alls' help (I recently moved to Aiken, SC, and I'm learning the
>> local
>> grammar ;))
>>
>>
>> Thanks and best regards,
>>
>>
>> Rafael
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV7-List">http://www.matronics.com/
>> Navigator?RV7-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
>> <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV7-List>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV7-List
>> <http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space">
>> --> <http://forums.matronics.com> http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 2
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> Time: 05:04:16 PM PST US
>> From: "Paul Walter" <pdwalter@bigpond.net.au>
>> Subject: RV7-List: Titan
>>
>> I am considering a 180hp titan engine for my 7A. Can anyone on the list
>> expand on these thoughts or provide me with positive/negative input on
>> this range of engines.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> Paul Walter
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 3
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> Time: 05:20:59 PM PST US
>> From: Mark Taylor <mtaylo17@msn.com>
>> Subject: RE: RV7-List: Titan
>>
>> I have a TMX IOF-360 from Mattituck with Titan cylinders. The rest of my
>> en
>> gine is Superior Air Parts. I'm up to 115 hours now, and they've been
>> fine.
>> My TBO is 2400hrs!
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>>
>> From: pdwalter@bigpond.net.auTo: rv7-list@matronics.comSubject: RV7-List:
>> T
>> itanDate: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:03:16 +1000
>>
>>
>> I am considering a 180hp titan engine for my 7A. Can anyone on the list
>> exp
>> and on these thoughts or provide me with positive/negative input on this
>> ra
>> nge of engines.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> Paul Walter
>>
>>
>> ________________________________ Message 4
>> _____________________________________
>>
>>
>> Time: 08:41:14 PM PST US
>> From: Carlos A Hernandez <carlosh@sec-engr.com>
>> Subject: Re: RV7-List: Titan
>>
>>
>> The guy to talk to is Robbie Attaway at www.attawayair.com. He's an RV6
>> builder and also a Titan engine builder. ou can see more on his site.
>> He's built several engines for people such as Mark Chamberlain and
>> Darwin Barrie (Phoenix area). I spoke with him a few months back after
>> his EAA presentation about the engines. I was on the fence until I spoke
>> with him about it. Now I'm just waiting (actually still building and
>> saving) for ECi to come out with a stroked IO-360! Yeah baby!
>>
>> Carlos in AZ
>> RV-7A
>> N174PP reserved
>>
>> Paul Walter wrote:
>>> I am considering a 180hp titan engine for my 7A. Can anyone on the
>>> list expand on these thoughts or provide me with positive/negative
>>> input on this range of engines.
>>>
>>> Thank you
>>>
>>> Paul Walter
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 4
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|
| Subject: | Elec trim with manual trimhorn |
>
> Hi all.
>
> Regarding the interference beetween the elec trimrod and elevator: I used the
manual trimhorn instead of the electric one.
>
> The manual trimhorn is slightly bigger (comes with the emp kit I think) beacuse
it''s a combined manual/elec trimhorn.
>
> By using the manual holes, the trimrod moves further away from the elevator skin.
>
> Also, the manual trimhorn used with elec trim will make the elec trim slightly
less sensitive, which according to some other Norwegain RVators is a good thing.
>
> I don't know that, but I have not trimmed away the elec "eye" on the horn yet,
because I'm planning to fly with both horns and trim away one of them after
testflying.
>
> Just my 2-cents from Norway.
>
> regards Alf Olav Frog
>
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