---------------------------------------------------------- RV8-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/18/03: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:40 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me (LARRY RUSH) 2. 09:04 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me (Jim Crunkleton) 3. 10:11 AM - LOC? - What's That? (Matt Dralle) 4. 10:15 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me (Terry Watson) 5. 10:21 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly af (Stephen J. Soule) 6. 10:45 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me (Andrew Morgan) 7. 10:56 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me (Dr. Kevin P. Leathers) 8. 11:43 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me (Allen Mecum) 9. 11:45 AM - Re: Rivets and rivet guns, etc. (David Brenegan) 10. 01:05 PM - Re: Rivets and rivet guns, etc. (Stephen J. Soule) 11. 02:07 PM - Re: Rivets and rivet guns, etc. (Terry Watson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:46 AM PST US From: "LARRY RUSH" Subject: Re: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:37:26 -0500 --> RV8-List message posted by: "LARRY RUSH" Mr. Peterson, I am shocked to get this message from you. I sent you an honest answer to your question and I got this !%@$#@*& reply???? Below is what I sent you first time. How in the heck could that instigate such a reply?? ------------------------------ I have built an RV-6A (flying 2 years now) and am building a RV-8 now. I use a 3x gun and have a couple manual squeezers with 1.5" and 3" heads. Definitely buy the swivel head mushroom rivet set for flush rivets from Avery, (best $35 you'll spend). A 3." offset and straight for AN3 & AN4 rivets is needed. Avery has a back rivet tool (spring loaded cuff) that is very helpful. I tried a pneumatic squeezer but decided the limited use was not worth the cost. The deep throat C-frame fixture is necessary for the control surface, and skin dimpling etc.. Also the steel plate for back riveting the flaps, ailerons,& rudder etc. You will find that as time goes along you will buy tools as needed. Hint...if you see that if you had a certain tool the job would be faster and result in a better looking job...BUY IT. I started by buying a tool set for RV building, from U.S. Industrial Tool, for about $600. You'll need maybe 350 3/32" and say 100 1/8" Clecos too. This is the tip of the iceber! g as they say. I probably spent $1000 to $1500.+ on aircraft tools. After you finish the plane sell the stuff ....unless you build another. My RV-6A took me 5 yrs 9 mos.!! Before quickbuilds!!! Luck, hard work, and perseverance, and you will prevail! Larry, Avon, IN (2R2), N939LT ----------------------------------------- Thanks a lot........Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Lyle Peterson To: rv-list@matronics.com ; rv6-list@matronics.com ; rv7-list@matronics.com ; rv8-list@matronics.com ; rv9-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 1:21 AM Subject: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV8-List message posted by: "Lyle Peterson" It is so disheartening to learn that aviators are so narrow minded and selfish. If you people had used one tenth of the energy you expended on blasting my question to providing useful information, you could have written a book. As is it you only demonstrated that you 1. Don't know the answers, 2. Think that your knowledge is so unique that it can't be shared, 3. You have an immense amount of time to waste, 4. You have absolutely no respect for other people, whether they be builders or not. Someone suggested that the question was 'stupid.' The only stupid question is one that you can't answer! I checked the archives for the "gazillion" answers to be found there. I found four and not all of them pertained directly to my question. None of them covered all the questions I had posed. A few responded off list. They probably did not want to be caught by the lords of the list giving information to a new builder. I do thank those few for the information they so generously shared. They are very unlike the rest of the listers. Some two thousand people on these lists and only a very few are willing to answer. Rather, several find the time to waste flaming the questioner. The thread continues under the guise of a 'Food Fight.' How charming! So many messages use an existing subject because so few of you have figured out how to start a new thread on the list. Shame, shame. Look at the bottom of the message for the information you need. You don't even have to ask a question of the list, and thus get flamed for a stupid question. I did envision one day flying it to Oshkosh. If I do, which is doubtful, I will park it in the Vintage area. There are some folks there that will talk decently to you about airplanes and lots of other things. If you get too many copies of this email, use the delete key. Thanks for nothing, Lyle Peterson ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:01 AM PST US From: "Jim Crunkleton" Subject: Re: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV8-List message posted by: "Jim Crunkleton" Larry, I too was shocked and looked back throught the e-mails and I couldn't find anything to get his panties in such a wad! I thought your answer to his question was excellent! Maybe he has us confused with some of the other lists? Jim Crunkleton N802JD 40 hrs. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:11:46 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV8-List: LOC? - What's That? --> RV8-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is a directory of everyone's name that made a Contribution during this year's List Fund Raiser. Its kind of my way of publicly thanking everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the continued operation and upgrade of these Email Lists. This year's List of Contributors is just around the corner; I'll be posting the it on or about December 1. Support your Lists today and make sure that your name is on the upcoming LOC! Your friends will be checking, no doubt, to see if YOU make your Contribution because THEY did! :-) Support Contribution Info - http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:25 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV8-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Some guys on the RV list were having fun at his expense, which lead to his hostile response. My guess is he sent it to this list by mistake. Too bad. The irony of course is that his response was as bad or worse than the rudeness that inspired it. I'm sure it was not directed at anyone who responded to him with helpful information. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Crunkleton Subject: Re: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV8-List message posted by: "Jim Crunkleton" Larry, I too was shocked and looked back throught the e-mails and I couldn't find anything to get his panties in such a wad! I thought your answer to his question was excellent! Maybe he has us confused with some of the other lists? Jim Crunkleton N802JD 40 hrs. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:21:15 AM PST US From: "Stephen J. Soule" ter you flame me Subject: RE: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly af ter you flame me --> RV8-List message posted by: "Stephen J. Soule" Jim and Larry, He was raked over the coals on the regular RV list and posted his reply to that list and this one. I don't think he meant to direct it to Larry personally. I thought Larry's reply was pretty good, actually. Stephen Soule Swanton Vermont RV-6A N227RV flying and RV-8 N222SZ under construction -----Original Message----- Larry, I too was shocked and looked back throught the e-mails and I couldn't find anything to get his panties in such a wad! I thought your answer to his question was excellent! Maybe he has us confused with some of the other lists? Jim Crunkleton N802JD 40 hrs. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:16 AM PST US From: "Andrew Morgan" Subject: RE: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV8-List message posted by: "Andrew Morgan" hey folks, i'm not taking the time to sort out who-what, but wanted you all to know i loved hearing about the tool list, and have saved that to a new file on tools, where i'll collect any tips i hear as time goes by... i hope late next year i can get started on my own RV8... thanks for being out there :) Andrew Morgan do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Crunkleton Subject: Re: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV8-List message posted by: "Jim Crunkleton" Larry, I too was shocked and looked back throught the e-mails and I couldn't find anything to get his panties in such a wad! I thought your answer to his question was excellent! Maybe he has us confused with some of the other lists? Jim Crunkleton N802JD 40 hrs. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:53 AM PST US From: "Dr. Kevin P. Leathers" Subject: Re: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV8-List message posted by: "Dr. Kevin P. Leathers" Hi Lyle, I started following this list over 3 years ago. I was a complete novice, and did not even have my private pilot's license yet. I must have asked hundreds of questions that undoubtedly marked me as a newbie. Not one time did anyone ever make me feel unwelcome or annoying. On the contrary, the individuals on this list have always welcomed everyone who has come along. Though I eventually chose another design for my first project, I continue to follow the RV lists. There is a wealth of information here. I know that I couldn't do without it, even though I am not building an RV at this time. Your post is overkill and somewhat vitriolic. Get over it, or build a Long EZ! ;-) Just kidding, of course! Doc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Peterson" ; ; Subject: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me > --> RV8-List message posted by: "Lyle Peterson" > > It is so disheartening to learn that aviators are so narrow minded and > selfish. If you people had used one tenth of the energy you expended on > blasting my question to providing useful information, you could have > written a book. As is it you only demonstrated that you 1. Don't know > the answers, 2. Think that your knowledge is so unique that it can't be > shared, 3. You have an immense amount of time to waste, 4. You have > absolutely no respect for other people, whether they be builders or not. > > snip> > Thanks for nothing, > > Lyle Peterson > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:37 AM PST US From: Allen Mecum Subject: RE: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV8-List message posted by: Allen Mecum Just a question. I got lost in the post. Is this all still about the rivet gun? Allen DO NOT ARCHIVE Andrew Morgan wrote: --> RV8-List message posted by: "Andrew Morgan" hey folks, i'm not taking the time to sort out who-what, but wanted you all to know i loved hearing about the tool list, and have saved that to a new file on tools, where i'll collect any tips i hear as time goes by... i hope late next year i can get started on my own RV8... thanks for being out there :) Andrew Morgan do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Crunkleton Subject: Re: RV8-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV8-List message posted by: "Jim Crunkleton" Larry, I too was shocked and looked back throught the e-mails and I couldn't find anything to get his panties in such a wad! I thought your answer to his question was excellent! Maybe he has us confused with some of the other lists? Jim Crunkleton N802JD 40 hrs. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:11 AM PST US From: David Brenegan Subject: Re: RV8-List: Rivets and rivet guns, etc. --> RV8-List message posted by: David Brenegan Is there a big difference between 3X and 2X guns? I know the difference on paper, but how about in use. I heard there few rivets that need the 3X power (rv8 spar?), but the 2X could be pushed to accomplish the job. I've just purchased a 3x Sioux, but I'm thinking riveting the .020 control surface skin I might want a 2X instead. I'm an Airframe mechanic (i'llhave my cert next month anyways) and we have 3x guns in school, which is why I decided on a 3X and the Sioux guns seem to have a very good feathering trigger. Should I keep it? Also, is there anyone in the Seattle area willing to show me their RV-8 (finished or otherwise). I'll offer a ride in my 1977 Beech Sierra C24R in return. David Brenegan RV-8 builder (soon anyways). LARRY RUSH wrote: >--> RV8-List message posted by: "LARRY RUSH" > >I have built an RV-6A (flying 2 years now) and am building a RV-8 now. I use a 3x gun and have a couple manual squeezers with 1.5" and 3" heads. Definitely buy the swivel head mushroom rivet set for flush rivets from Avery, (best $35 you'll spend). A 3." offset and straight for AN3 & AN4 rivets is needed. Avery has a back rivet tool (spring loaded cuff) that is very helpful. I tried a pneumatic squeezer but decided the limited use was not worth the cost. The deep throat C-frame fixture is necessary for the control surface, and skin dimpling etc.. Also the steel plate for back riveting the flaps, ailerons,& rudder etc. You will find that as time goes along you will buy tools as needed. Hint...if you see that if you had a certain tool the job would be faster and result in a better looking job...BUY IT. I started by buying a tool set for RV building, from U.S. Industrial Tool, for about $600. You'll need maybe 350 3/32" and say 100 1/8" Clecos too. This is the tip of the iceber! >g as they say. I probably spent $1000 to $1500.+ on aircraft tools. After you finish the plane sell the stuff ....unless you build another. My RV-6A took me 5 yrs 9 mos.!! Before quickbuilds!!! >Luck, hard work, and perseverance, and you will prevail! >Larry, Avon, IN (2R2), N939LT > > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Lyle Peterson > To: rv8-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 1:13 AM > Subject: RV8-List: Rivets and rivet guns, etc. > > > --> RV8-List message posted by: "Lyle Peterson" > > > I am in the process of setting up to start on an RV6. It is a very slow > build kit. I would appreciate some advice on rivet tools. > > What rivet gun seems to be the best all around as far as versatility and > longevity? Which seems to have the best trigger? Is a 1X enough? Is > 3X too much? > > What rivet sets are the most useful and which are useful in some limited > uses? Long sets, offset sets, C frame sets, swivel sets, cushioned > sets. Any other accessory that any of you found useful or would have > liked to have to make setting a particular rivet easier? > > What size yokes are useful or needed in some locations on a pneumatic > rivet squeezer or on a hand rivet squeezer? > > I apologize if you get several copies of this message. I am subscribed > to several RV lists. > > Thank all of you for the information and encouragement. > > Lyle Peterson > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:59 PM PST US From: "Stephen J. Soule" Subject: RE: RV8-List: Rivets and rivet guns, etc. --> RV8-List message posted by: "Stephen J. Soule" Hi David, I built my RV-6A with a 3X gun bought from Avery Tools and am working on a RV-8 using the same gun. I found it just fine for the 3/16 flush rivets in the skin. It is adequate for the 1/8 rivets until you get into thicker material in relatively hard to reach areas such as where you rivet the main ribs to the nose ribs on the wing spar. Then it doesn't seem to hit hard enough until you increase the pressure to the point where you run the risk of bouncing off the manufactured head. This leads to a smiley rivet and a drill out project. You might come out ahead with the Sioux gun since I hear the Sioux gun has a nice progressive trigger. The 2X guns are very nice to handle, but I wonder if you would like them for the 1/8 rivets. I am happy with the 3X as my only rivet gun. Stephen Soule Swanton, Vermont -----Original Message----- Is there a big difference between 3X and 2X guns? I know the difference on paper, but how about in use. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:51 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV8-List: Rivets and rivet guns, etc. --> RV8-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" David, I have a 2x rivet gun and I was quite happy with it until I tried to rivet the fuselage where the longerons and the firewall come together. There are a lot of pieces both steel and aluminum that come together there and I had a hell of a time trying to get the rivets to form a decent shop head. I finally realized that my gun just wasn't massive enough to shake all that mass into the bucking bar. I back riveted them an all was fine. The next RV I build, I will have both. Yes, I know. Less than useful answer. I am in the Seattle area (Lake Forest Park) and am at the wiring stage with my RV-8A. No bribes necessary to see my project. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of David Brenegan Subject: Re: RV8-List: Rivets and rivet guns, etc. --> RV8-List message posted by: David Brenegan Is there a big difference between 3X and 2X guns? I know the difference on paper, but how about in use. I heard there few rivets that need the 3X power (rv8 spar?), but the 2X could be pushed to accomplish the job. I've just purchased a 3x Sioux, but I'm thinking riveting the .020 control surface skin I might want a 2X instead. I'm an Airframe mechanic (i'llhave my cert next month anyways) and we have 3x guns in school, which is why I decided on a 3X and the Sioux guns seem to have a very good feathering trigger. Should I keep it? Also, is there anyone in the Seattle area willing to show me their RV-8 (finished or otherwise). I'll offer a ride in my 1977 Beech Sierra C24R in return. David Brenegan RV-8 builder (soon anyways).