Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:45 AM - Ground-loop (Doug Ripley)
2. 10:30 AM - Re: Ground-loop (Paul Schattauer)
3. 10:37 AM - Re: Ground-loop (RV_8 Pilot)
4. 10:57 AM - Re: Ground-loop ()
5. 12:31 PM - Re: Ground-loop (Doug Ripley)
6. 12:38 PM - Re: RV8-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 09/16/04 (Speedy11@aol.com)
7. 01:14 PM - Re: Ground-loop (Mickey Coggins)
Message 1
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--> RV8-List message posted by: "Doug Ripley" <dougr@hurricanefilter.com>
I have a lengthy story and a question, grab a cup of coffee, or just delete if
you don't have time......
RV-8 serial # 81905, N821DT flew the first time August 14th this year. I built
it in a partnership. We have IO-360 180hp, Hartzell constant speed, empty weight
is 1134# with paint. We operate out of a grass strip. The restriction was
flown off in under two weeks. On the day I took my first passenger, I almost
lost it landing on hard surface. It was a calm day. Rolling out after landing,
at about 20 mph (guessing), it took a left, and rudder alone wouldn't bring
it back, it took a jab on the brakes to straighten it up. This freaked me
out, because for about 1 second, I felt out of control. My passenger said that
all he felt was a swerve, but he wasn't the one that gave the rudder input
with no response. I really thought hard about what might have gone wrong, and
finally determined that I must have been behind the airplane for a moment, and
decided that it was a "wake-up call".
On Saturday, September 11th, I was riding with my partner, another calm day, landing
on hard surface. He did a beautiful wheel landing, tail came down, stick
all the way back, and everything was going perfectly. He was on the centerline,
and keeping the airplane perfectly straight. At about 20 mph, it took a
hard right, followed by IMMEDIATE left rudder, FULL DEFLECTION. The airplane
did not respond at all, it was like it was on rails taking it off the runway.
This runway was not as wide as the one I was on, the airplane left the runway.
All would have been fine, except for the 4' deep ditch 20' to the side of the
runway. Left gear dug in the mud, airplane tipped up, got the prop, spinner,
and bent the fuselage up (left skin, gear box, belly skin) forward of the spar.
We've had a week to grieve, cry, cuss, kick the cat, etc. as well as think about
what happened. I think I've concluded that he did nothing wrong. Left brake
input early in the event might have straightened it out, but that's not the
point I'm getting to here. What happened in these two events is not right!
Our gear alignment is correct per Van's procedures in the manual....no toe-in or
toe-out. My partner has about 1,200 hours, and recent, sufficient tailwheel
time to be qualified to fly the -8. I have about 1,300 hours, 600 of which
is tailwheel. 350 hours in a Midget Mustang that I built, the rest is mixed up
in many different models, including Pitts, Skybolt, AcroSport, and Thorp T-18.
I'll take my beatings for mistakes and/or complacency. In fact, I've ground-looped
before due to cranial-rectal inversion. BUT......In all the 600 hours
of tailwheel flying I've done, I NEVER remember feeling so out of control of
the airplane. In a "squirrelly" airplane like the Thorp or Pitts, it will dance
around, but I always felt like I had sufficient control of the aircraft,
and over-controlling was the worst enemy.
The RV has a reputation for being a docile yet responsive taildragger. I never
would have expected either of these two events to happen. Since last Saturday
I spoke with another gentleman that ground-looped his -8. He has about 400
hours tailwheel, most of which is Acrosport time, and about 5 or more recent hours
in the -8 he just purchased. He blamed tailwheel currency and cross-wind
as the contributing factors. Look at Randy Lervold's website. How much time
did he have in his -8? 200 hours? He says the crosswind was the culprit. I
believe that ANYONE can ground-loop, but someone with 200 recent hours in type
should be able to handle the crosswind that he spoke about. It might not be
pretty, but the RV should have enough rudder response that a qualified pilot
such as Randy or the other gentleman I mention can keep it out of the ditches.
This brings me to my question for all of you -8 flyers.....Have any of you ever
had a "near miss" like this, where the airplane tried to depart the runway with
little or no response to rudder input? Have you ever felt like the airplane
was flying you?
Here is why I ask........There are 439 RV-8(A)'s flying, not sure how many are
tailwheel. Compare that to the -4 and -6. I want to know what the ground accident
ratio is when comparing the -4 and -6 to the -8. I believe that there might
be something to the geometry of the two-piece spring steel gear that sets
the -8 apart from the rest. Maybe when there is a side-load there is an aggravated
situation?
My Midget Mustang had spring steel gear that attached to the spar in the wings.
When I first set up the gear, it had a very slight toe-out. The ground handling
was very easy, it tracked perfectly and very docile. However, the toe-out
caused the gear to spread a little when taxiing, so I adjusted the alignment
shims one bolt-hole, which resulted in a very slight toe-in. I couldn't get
the airplane above 20 mph and keep it on the runway!!! One wheel would grab causing
the airplane to swerve, which shifted more weight onto that wheel, aggravating
the situation. Rudder and brake would correct it, but then the other
wheel would grab. What a mess. It actually bruised my shoulders from banging
me up against the side of the cockpit. It was very violent. I used a belt sander
to make the wheels aligned perfectly, then all was ok, and it was a relatively
docile taildragger. It would occasionally try to change directions, but
the rudder was incredibly responsive, and the airplane was controllable, which
is to be expected with any high performance airplane like the Pitts, Thorp,
and RV.
Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for responses. All of you may help me
determine that I'm just getting old, stubborn, or cocky, and I need to keep
my head out of my ass. I'm only 36, so we can eliminate one of those factors!
:>)
Message 2
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--> RV8-List message posted by: "Paul Schattauer" <chasm711@msn.com>
Doug
I'm truly sorry to hear about your mishap. The good news is no one was hurt
and Vans' parts are relatively inexpensive. As you know a hard surfaced
runway is much much less forgiving of any misalignment during landing. Both
misalignment of the aircraft to the runway or the gear with reference to the
aircraft. I really have no idea what caused your adventures but let me
relate my own. I also have an RV 8 and lot of tail wheel time. When I
built my 8 I was extra careful to align the gear per instructions. During
the first fifty hours (almost all hard surface) my landings were squirrelly,
dang thing would dart unpredictably to either side or sometimes not at
all. I would not land on narrow runways and avoided cross winds. I took the
wheel fairings off at fifty hours for some brake work and both tires were
badly worn on the outside edge, one worse than the other. I rechecked the
alignment and both had a lot of toe in. I shimmed the axels and rebuilt the
wheel pants (that's how far out they were). Tire wear in the last 100 hours
is barely detectable and the squirrels are gone. I won't say it's on rails
but it's perfectly controllable and comfortable to land.
Paul
>From: "Doug Ripley" <dougr@hurricanefilter.com>
>Reply-To: rv8-list@matronics.com
>To: "RV8-List Digest Server" <rv8-list-digest@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV8-List: Ground-loop
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:44:36 -0400
>
>--> RV8-List message posted by: "Doug Ripley" <dougr@hurricanefilter.com>
>
>I have a lengthy story and a question, grab a cup of coffee, or just delete
>if you don't have time......
>
>RV-8 serial # 81905, N821DT flew the first time August 14th this year. I
>built it in a partnership. We have IO-360 180hp, Hartzell constant speed,
>empty weight is 1134# with paint. We operate out of a grass strip. The
>restriction was flown off in under two weeks. On the day I took my first
>passenger, I almost lost it landing on hard surface. It was a calm day.
>Rolling out after landing, at about 20 mph (guessing), it took a left, and
>rudder alone wouldn't bring it back, it took a jab on the brakes to
>straighten it up. This freaked me out, because for about 1 second, I felt
>out of control. My passenger said that all he felt was a swerve, but he
>wasn't the one that gave the rudder input with no response. I really
>thought hard about what might have gone wrong, and finally determined that
>I must have been behind the airplane for a moment, and decided that it was
>a "wake-up call".
>
>On Saturday, September 11th, I was riding with my partner, another calm
>day, landing on hard surface. He did a beautiful wheel landing, tail came
>down, stick all the way back, and everything was going perfectly. He was
>on the centerline, and keeping the airplane perfectly straight. At about
>20 mph, it took a hard right, followed by IMMEDIATE left rudder, FULL
>DEFLECTION. The airplane did not respond at all, it was like it was on
>rails taking it off the runway. This runway was not as wide as the one I
>was on, the airplane left the runway. All would have been fine, except for
>the 4' deep ditch 20' to the side of the runway. Left gear dug in the mud,
>airplane tipped up, got the prop, spinner, and bent the fuselage up (left
>skin, gear box, belly skin) forward of the spar.
>
>We've had a week to grieve, cry, cuss, kick the cat, etc. as well as think
>about what happened. I think I've concluded that he did nothing wrong.
>Left brake input early in the event might have straightened it out, but
>that's not the point I'm getting to here. What happened in these two
>events is not right!
>
>Our gear alignment is correct per Van's procedures in the manual....no
>toe-in or toe-out. My partner has about 1,200 hours, and recent,
>sufficient tailwheel time to be qualified to fly the -8. I have about
>1,300 hours, 600 of which is tailwheel. 350 hours in a Midget Mustang that
>I built, the rest is mixed up in many different models, including Pitts,
>Skybolt, AcroSport, and Thorp T-18. I'll take my beatings for mistakes
>and/or complacency. In fact, I've ground-looped before due to
>cranial-rectal inversion. BUT......In all the 600 hours of tailwheel
>flying I've done, I NEVER remember feeling so out of control of the
>airplane. In a "squirrelly" airplane like the Thorp or Pitts, it will
>dance around, but I always felt like I had sufficient control of the
>aircraft, and over-controlling was the worst enemy.
>
>The RV has a reputation for being a docile yet responsive taildragger. I
>never would have expected either of these two events to happen. Since last
>Saturday I spoke with another gentleman that ground-looped his -8. He has
>about 400 hours tailwheel, most of which is Acrosport time, and about 5 or
>more recent hours in the -8 he just purchased. He blamed tailwheel
>currency and cross-wind as the contributing factors. Look at Randy
>Lervold's website. How much time did he have in his -8? 200 hours? He
>says the crosswind was the culprit. I believe that ANYONE can ground-loop,
>but someone with 200 recent hours in type should be able to handle the
>crosswind that he spoke about. It might not be pretty, but the RV should
>have enough rudder response that a qualified pilot such as Randy or the
>other gentleman I mention can keep it out of the ditches.
>
>This brings me to my question for all of you -8 flyers.....Have any of you
>ever had a "near miss" like this, where the airplane tried to depart the
>runway with little or no response to rudder input? Have you ever felt like
>the airplane was flying you?
>
>Here is why I ask........There are 439 RV-8(A)'s flying, not sure how many
>are tailwheel. Compare that to the -4 and -6. I want to know what the
>ground accident ratio is when comparing the -4 and -6 to the -8. I believe
>that there might be something to the geometry of the two-piece spring steel
>gear that sets the -8 apart from the rest. Maybe when there is a side-load
>there is an aggravated situation?
>
>My Midget Mustang had spring steel gear that attached to the spar in the
>wings. When I first set up the gear, it had a very slight toe-out. The
>ground handling was very easy, it tracked perfectly and very docile.
>However, the toe-out caused the gear to spread a little when taxiing, so I
>adjusted the alignment shims one bolt-hole, which resulted in a very slight
>toe-in. I couldn't get the airplane above 20 mph and keep it on the
>runway!!! One wheel would grab causing the airplane to swerve, which
>shifted more weight onto that wheel, aggravating the situation. Rudder and
>brake would correct it, but then the other wheel would grab. What a mess.
>It actually bruised my shoulders from banging me up against the side of the
>cockpit. It was very violent. I used a belt sander to make the wheels
>aligned perfectly, then all was ok, and it was a relatively docile
>taildragger. It would occasionally try to change directions, but the
>rudder was incredibly responsive, and the airp!
>lane was controllable, which is to be expected with any high performance
>airplane like the Pitts, Thorp, and RV.
>
>Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for responses. All of you may
>help me determine that I'm just getting old, stubborn, or cocky, and I need
>to keep my head out of my ass. I'm only 36, so we can eliminate one of
>those factors! :>)
>
>
Message 3
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--> RV8-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
Sorry for your problems/damage. Good luck getting things back together.
I've got about 650 hrs on my -8 and have had very few "swervy" events and
nothing scary (leaving the runway). IMO, the -8 is a very solid performing
tailwheel plane. But even good pilots sometimes get the tail ahead of the
nose. I believe I remember hearing Chuck Yeager g'looped a T-6 a year or
two ago.
As for my background - I've got about 1850 total, 850 tailwheel and 1
no-damage ground-loop (C-170). The RV's are well above average performers
on the ground in my experience. Check your wheel alignment, brake
performance and tailwheel assy. Maybe something there isn't as it should
be. Maybe it was just your time. :(
Bryan Jones -8
>I have a lengthy story and a question, grab a cup of coffee, or just delete
>if you don't have time......
>
>RV-8 serial # 81905, N821DT flew the first time August 14th this year. I
>built it in a partnership.
Message 4
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--> RV8-List message posted by: <jonweisw@rcn.com>
Doug-
So sorry to hear of your mishap. Is the damage repairable? Is
your engine now in need of a tear-down?
Out of curiosity, is it possible that there was an added
effect of having a passenger on some previously undetected
misalignment? It reads from your story that this happened on
the first two flights with a passenger, and I wonder if it is
related to having weight back there. As I am nearing the end
of my 40h test period, perhaps I should try landing my -8
with some ballast in the passenger seat to test for this.
Regards,
Jon Weiswasser
N898JW, 23h
Message 5
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--> RV8-List message posted by: "Doug Ripley" <dougr@hurricanefilter.com>
Thanks to everyone for the condolences. Lots of good comments and
questions, a couple of them were not posted. After more thought on the
subject and a few phone conversations, I think the problem points to gear
alignment, and weight, along with "the pilot's inability to maintain
directional control"....in both cases.
One thing to add.....there were black marks on the runway where we left it.
The left wheel mark was much darker than the right, indicating that the left
wheel was grabbing more than the right. Does it seem obvious that, if the
left wheel was grabbing more pavement than the right, and the airplane was
still going to the right, that the orientation of the left wheel on the
pavement was pushing us to the right?
Engine will be completely torn down and inspected. The prop strike was in
mud, and "strike" is a harsh word.....one blade is bent backwards a little,
it wasn't really sudden stoppage. But.....it was a brand new Mattituck
engine, and I don't want to take chances, and want to maintain the value of
the aircraft / engine.
----- Original Message -----
From: <jonweisw@rcn.com>
Subject: Re: RV8-List: Ground-loop
> --> RV8-List message posted by: <jonweisw@rcn.com>
>
> Doug-
> So sorry to hear of your mishap. Is the damage repairable? Is
> your engine now in need of a tear-down?
>
> Out of curiosity, is it possible that there was an added
> effect of having a passenger on some previously undetected
> misalignment? It reads from your story that this happened on
> the first two flights with a passenger, and I wonder if it is
> related to having weight back there. As I am nearing the end
> of my 40h test period, perhaps I should try landing my -8
> with some ballast in the passenger seat to test for this.
>
> Regards,
> Jon Weiswasser
> N898JW, 23h
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RV8-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 09/16/04 |
--> RV8-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
In a message dated 9/17/2004 2:58:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rv8-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
The red white and blue RV-8 was mine. The wingtip lights came from RMD
Lighting. Talk to Bob DeBorde at 503-628-6056. It is a really good add on
light system.
Walt,
I also highly recommend RMD. They have gone out of their way to help me and
they have an excellent product.
I bought a 12 v heater for the RCP. It produces about 200 W of heat. I
don't have it here but next time I go to the shop I can get the info for you.
I
ordered over the net and the cost with shipping was only $15 or so. So, even
if you don't like the idea, there's not a lot of money sunk in it.
Stan Sutterfield
RV-8A
www.rv-8a.net
Message 7
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--> RV8-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Hi Doug,
I'm also sorry to hear about the damage to your aircraft. I
thank you very much for sharing the experience with us in
hopes that we can all learn from it. In that vein...
I have a few quick questions:
1) are you using the standard Van's chains on the tailwheel?
2) ... gear legs?
3) ... tires?
I witnessed a nasty ground loop at SNF this year in a
beautiful warbird. The wind shifted violently during his
rollout, and there really was nothing he could do. He
fought valiantly to keep the aircraft under control, but
mother nature won that battle. It can happen, and if
I can learn to minimize the risk I'll be happy.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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