---------------------------------------------------------- RV8-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/11/10: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:31 AM - Re: 100 dollar scrambled eggs (Matt Dralle) 2. 05:39 PM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Dan Bergeron) 3. 05:39 PM - Re: Fuel Both Selector (Speedy11@aol.com) 4. 06:43 PM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders () 5. 07:06 PM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Helsper) 6. 07:07 PM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Carl Froehlich) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:48 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV8-List: Re: 100 dollar scrambled eggs At 11:34 AM 6/10/2010 Thursday, you wrote: >Matt, > >Sorry to hear about your fuel level sender problems, but glad you're finally able to enjoy some time with air under the tires. I know it would be a little bit of a hike just for breakfast, but would like to see you at Grants Pass, OR for our EAA Chapter 725 AirEventure on June 26. A beautiful area for flying, friendly people, good food, and (should be) tons of RV's. What's not to like. Hope you can make it. Everyone else in range also. Y'all come. > >Stan Loer >RV-8 QB in process Thanks for the invite, Stan. That sounds like would be a great trip for the new RV-8. I'll put it on my calendar. Matt Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: Enjoying The Fruits of 2500 Hours of Labor... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders From: Dan Bergeron HI ALL: I'M ONE OF THE RV BUILDERS WHO'VE BEEN HASSLING WITH FUEL GAUGE ISSUES RIGHT FROM THE GET GO. I INSTALLED THE VANS CAPACITIVE PLATE SENDING UNITS IN MY TANKS AT TIME OF INITIAL CONSTRUCTION, THNKING I WAS DOING THE RIGHT THING. THE CAPACITIVE VALUES FROM THE TANKS FEED INTO PRINCETON SENDING UNITS - GET CONVERTED TO VOLTAGE VALUES - WHICH THEN FEED INTO THE EIS - AND FROM THERE TO THE GRT SCREEN. THIS COMBINATION DOESN'T WORK WORTH A DARN - IT'S DOWNRIGHT USELESS. THE GRT (GRAND RAPIDS TECHNOLOGY) IS A GREAT SYSTEM AND, WITH THIS ONE EXCEPTION, I'M VERY HAPPY WITH IT. I'M CONSIDERING DROPPING THE TANKS AND INSTALLING FLOAT TYPE SENDING UNITS. I KNOW FLOATS AREN'T ALL THAT ACCURATE BUT THEY'D SURE BEAT WHAT I'VE GOT NOW - WHICH IS ABOUT LIKE HAVING NO GAUGES AT ALL. HOWEVER - I'VE BEEN MULLING OVER ANOTHER OPTION - WHICH IS TO BUY AND INSTALL THE VANS EI FL - 2C GAUGE @ $415 AND TWO IE P - 300C CONVERTERS @ $45 EACH - A TOTAL OF $505 PLUS SHIPPING. I HATE TO PART WITH THE $ BUT I'VE GOT PLENTY OF SPACE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE PANEL AND I SEEM TO REMEMBER SEVERAL BUILDERS COMMENTING THIS COMBINATION WORKS GREAT; THAT WHEN VAN DESIGNED THE CAPACITIVE, PLATE STYLE SENDING UNITS, HE INTENDED THAT THEY BE USED WITH THE EI GAUGE AND CONVERTERS. (THEY SURE DON'T WORK WITH THE PRINCETON/GRT SYSTEM.) I'D APPRECIATE COMMENTS FROM ANYONE WITH EXPERIENCE WITH THE EI FUEL GAUGE AND CONVERTER UNITS AND CAPACITIVE PLATE SENDING UNITS. DAN BERGERON RV-7A - N307TB 149 HOURS SINCE FIRST FLIGHT ON 08/04/09 On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Michael Kraus wrote: > > By the time you went to all that hassle, you could have just removed yours > and insalled them. It really isn't that big of a deal!!! I'd even venture > to say you could remove your tanks and do it right faster than working on > your back with angle tools...... > > Do not archive > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Mike Cingari wrote: > >> >> Matt, >> >> I would find someone with a QB 8 that has yet to install his S&W Floats >> and use his tanks to set up your floats. >> >> Then just transfer them to your tanks. That would minimize the down time >> and could be done with the wings installed. >> >> Good Luck, >> >> Mike Cingari >> >> >> >> On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:59 PM, RV8-List Digest Server wrote: >> >> * >>> >>> ================================================= >>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive >>> ================================================= >>> >>> Today's complete RV8-List Digest can also be found in either of the >>> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted >>> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >>> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >>> of the RV8-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor >>> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >>> >>> HTML Version: >>> >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 10-06-09&Archive=RV8 >>> >>> Text Version: >>> >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 10-06-09&Archive=RV8 >>> >>> >>> =============================================== >>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive >>> =============================================== >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> RV8-List Digest Archive >>> --- >>> Total Messages Posted Wed 06/09/10: 10 >>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> Today's Message Index: >>> ---------------------- >>> >>> 1. 04:49 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (Michael Kraus) >>> 2. 07:03 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (ualpilot3@aol.com) >>> 3. 08:13 AM - Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (George Inman 204 287 >>> 8334) >>> 4. 08:51 AM - Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (George Inman 204 287 >>> 8334) >>> 5. 09:31 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Speedy11@aol.com) >>> 6. 10:09 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Speedy11@aol.com) >>> 7. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Terry Watson) >>> 8. 01:19 PM - Van's Float type fuel indicator sensor bending accuracy >>> (Vince Himsl) >>> 9. 04:44 PM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... () >>> 10. 05:43 PM - Re: Re: fuel selector-(both) (Gordon or Marge) >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 1 >>> _____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Time: 04:49:11 AM PST US >>> From: Michael Kraus >>> Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>> >>> >>> I removed my tanks on my RV-4 to make some modifications. I don't >>> remember it being a big deal at all. I think it took less than 20 >>> minutes per side with a drill motor. I think you'd have a much easier >>> time in removing the tanks and doing it that way. >>> >>> Just one builders opinion.... >>> -Mike >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Dear Listers, >>>> >>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>>> capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea >>>> from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or >>>> the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from >>>> underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to- >>>> wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>>> >>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units >>>> without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I >>>> can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might >>>> just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come >>>> off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying >>>> weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August >>>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>> >>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much >>>> do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>> >>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for >>>> the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these >>>> units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out >>>> once, I definitely don't want to do this again! >>>> >>>> Thanks for the insight... >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt Dralle >>>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>>> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Blog >>>> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >>>> Status: Enjoying The Fruits of 2500 Hours of Labor! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 2 >>> _____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Time: 07:03:40 AM PST US >>> Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>> From: ualpilot3@aol.com >>> >>> >>> Matt, >>> >>> I just pulled the fuel senders off a RV-8A to replace the gasket. It >>> is no problem doing it through the tank-fuselage space. Call me if you >>> have any questions. 210-887-4546 >>> >>> Les Bourne >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Michael Kraus >>> Sent: Wed, Jun 9, 2010 6:45 am >>> Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I removed my tanks on my RV-4 to make some modifications. I don't >>> remember it being a big deal at all. I think it took less than 20 >>> minutes per side with a drill motor. I think you'd have a much easier >>> time in removing the tanks and doing it that way. >>> >>> Just one builders opinion.... >>> -Mike >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Dear Listers, >>>> >>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton > >>>> >>> capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea > from >>> Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or > the >>> fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from > underneath >>> the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-> wing >>> fairing? Is this even possible? >>> >>>> >>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units > >>>> >>> without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I > >>> can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might > >>> just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come > >>> off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying > >>> weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August > or >>> October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>> >>>> >>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much > >>>> >>> do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>> >>>> >>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for > >>>> >>> the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these > units >>> so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out > once, I >>> definitely don't want to do this again! >>> >>>> >>>> Thanks for the insight... >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt Dralle >>>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>>> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Blog >>>> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >>>> Status: Enjoying The Fruits of 2500 Hours of Labor! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 3 >>> _____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Time: 08:13:55 AM PST US >>> From: George Inman 204 287 8334 >>> Subject: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>> >>> >>> Dear Listers, >>> >>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance >>> fuel >>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>> replaced >>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>> Basically >>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>> the >>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>> >>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>> destroying >>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>> pulling >>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>> later. >>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>> enjoy >>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>> either August >>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>> >>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>> you have >>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>> >>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>> S&W float >>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot >>> deal. >>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>> this >>> again! >>> >>> Thanks for the insight... >>> >>> >>> Matt Dralle >>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>> >>> >>> Matt >>> >>> I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders >>> without removing the wing. >>> So you should be able to install them. >>> The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have >>> to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit >>> an angle on bottom of the tank. >>> >>> George H. Inman >>> ghinman@mts.net >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 4 >>> _____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Time: 08:51:09 AM PST US >>> From: George Inman 204 287 8334 >>> Subject: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>> >>> >>> Dear Listers, >>> >>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>> capacitance fuel >>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>> replaced >>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>> Basically >>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>> the >>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>> >>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>> destroying >>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>> pulling >>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>> later. >>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>> enjoy >>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>> either August >>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>> >>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>> you have >>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>> >>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>> S&W float >>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>> one-shot deal. >>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>> this >>> again! >>> >>> Thanks for the insight... >>> >>> >>> Matt Dralle >>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>> >>> >>> Matt >>> >>> I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders >>> without removing the wing. >>> So you should be able to install them. >>> The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have >>> to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit >>> an angle on bottom of the tank. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> George H. Inman >>> ghinman@mts.net >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 5 >>> _____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Time: 09:31:17 AM PST US >>> From: Speedy11@aol.com >>> Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>> >>> >>> Matt, >>> Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same >>> boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. >>> I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old >>> probes >>> and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this >>> guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. >>> My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone >>> considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. >>> I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however >>> I >>> have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. >>> I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement >>> went. >>> Stan Sutterfield >>> >>> >>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>> capacitance >>> fuel >>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>> replaced >>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>> Basically >>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>> the >>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>> >>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>> destroying >>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>> pulling >>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>> later. >>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>> enjoy >>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>> either August >>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>> >>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>> you have >>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>> >>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>> S&W >>> float >>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>> one-shot >>> deal. >>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>> this >>> again! >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 6 >>> _____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Time: 10:09:36 AM PST US >>> From: Speedy11@aol.com >>> Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>> >>> >>> Matt, >>> Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same >>> boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. >>> I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old >>> probes >>> and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this >>> guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. >>> My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone >>> considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. >>> I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however >>> I >>> have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. >>> I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement >>> went. >>> Stan Sutterfield >>> >>> >>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>> capacitance >>> fuel >>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>> replaced >>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>> Basically >>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>> the >>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>> >>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>> destroying >>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>> pulling >>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>> later. >>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>> enjoy >>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>> either August >>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>> >>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>> you have >>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>> >>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>> S&W >>> float >>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>> one-shot >>> deal. >>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>> this >>> again! >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 7 >>> _____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Time: 11:11:44 AM PST US >>> From: "Terry Watson" >>> Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>> >>> Stan, >>> >>> >>> Isn't there a cross-feed problem with a 'both' fuel selector on a low >>> wing >>> plane like an RV? Did you find a way to deal with that? >>> >>> >>> Terry >>> >>> >>> From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>> Speedy11@aol.com >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:15 AM >>> Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>> >>> >>> Matt, >>> >>> Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same >>> boat. >>> And I've been thinking about removing mine also. >>> >>> I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old >>> probes >>> and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this >>> guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. >>> >>> My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone >>> considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. >>> >>> I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however >>> I >>> have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. >>> >>> I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement >>> went. >>> >>> Stan Sutterfield >>> >>> >>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance >>> fuel >>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>> replaced >>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>> Basically >>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>> the >>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>> >>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>> destroying >>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>> pulling >>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>> later. >>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>> enjoy >>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>> either >>> August >>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>> >>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>> you >>> have >>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>> >>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>> S&W >>> float >>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot >>> deal. >>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>> this >>> again! >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 8 >>> _____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Time: 01:19:54 PM PST US >>> From: "Vince Himsl" >>> Subject: RV8-List: Van's Float type fuel indicator sensor bending >>> accuracy >>> >>> I have the standard float type from Van's. >>> >>> >>> Following the bending instructions and Dynon D-180 cal procedure, my >>> floats >>> top out at about 16+ gallons (Dynon d-180 cal) and bottom with roughly 2 >>> gallons remaining. I have no problem with that. >>> >>> >>> On the ground I use visual inspection and the fuel flow sensor to gauge >>> tank >>> quantity. In the air I add in the fuel level indications; I have a tail >>> dragger. >>> >>> >>> On the ground a tail dragger fuel level indication is useless but in the >>> air >>> I rely on it as the last word even with the inaccuracies and erroneous >>> deflections caused by the rigors of flight. If you are getting down >>> around >>> 7 gallons in each tank, you have @ 1.5 hours left and are (prudently) >>> looking for a place to fill up. >>> >>> >>> Assuming full tanks, my bladder goes yellow at 20 gal then red at 15; my >>> brain goes yellow at 10, then red at 8; finally, my Dynon goes yellow at >>> 7 >>> (each tank) and red at 5. >>> >>> >>> My fuel flow sensor (again from Dynon) has been surprisingly accurate. >>> Any >>> inaccuracy has been caused by filling the tanks too fast not allowing >>> time >>> for the fuel to settle past the baffles. In other words you have to fill >>> and then wait for the gas to settle a couple of times else you won't >>> really >>> have full tanks. The fuel flow sensor won't catch this (you tell it when >>> you >>> add gas), but the float indicator will, starting at @ 15 gals each tank. >>> >>> >>> So due to the nature of flight, regulations and safety, the question >>> should >>> not be "Are my fuel level indicators accurate?" The question should be >>> "Are >>> my fuel level indicators accurate enough?" >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Vince H. >>> >>> RV-8 N8432 57 hours >>> >>> >>> From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson >>> Sent: June 09, 2010 10:33 AM >>> Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>> >>> >>> Stan, >>> >>> >>> Isn't there a cross-feed problem with a 'both' fuel selector on a low >>> wing >>> plane like an RV? Did you find a way to deal with that? >>> >>> >>> Terry >>> >>> >>> From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>> Speedy11@aol.com >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:15 AM >>> Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>> >>> >>> Matt, >>> >>> Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same >>> boat. >>> And I've been thinking about removing mine also. >>> >>> I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old >>> probes >>> and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this >>> guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. >>> >>> My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone >>> considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. >>> >>> I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however >>> I >>> have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. >>> >>> I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement >>> went. >>> >>> Stan Sutterfield >>> >>> >>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance >>> fuel >>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>> replaced >>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>> Basically >>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>> the >>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>> >>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>> destroying >>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>> pulling >>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>> later. >>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>> enjoy >>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>> either >>> August >>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>> >>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>> you >>> have >>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>> >>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>> S&W >>> float >>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot >>> deal. >>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>> this >>> again! >>> >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com >>> >>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 9 >>> _____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Time: 04:44:05 PM PST US >>> From: >>> Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>> >>> >>> You can install the Van fuel floats without removing the wing. I don't >>> know about >>> removing the present probes. It will be eaiser if you didn't use pro seal >>> or >>> some other material on the gaskets. >>> Louis Dunn >>> RV8 some day >>> >>> ---- George Inman 204 287 8334 wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Dear Listers, >>>> >>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>>> capacitance fuel >>>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>>> replaced >>>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>>> Basically >>>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>>> the >>>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>>> >>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>>> destroying >>>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>>> pulling >>>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>>> later. >>>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>>> enjoy >>>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>>> either August >>>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>> >>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>>> you have >>>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>> >>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>>> S&W float >>>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>>> one-shot deal. >>>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>>> this >>>> again! >>>> >>>> Thanks for the insight... >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt Dralle >>>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders >>>> without removing the wing. >>>> So you should be able to install them. >>>> The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have >>>> to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit >>>> an angle on bottom of the tank. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> George H. Inman >>>> ghinman@mts.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 10 >>> ____________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Time: 05:43:46 PM PST US >>> From: "Gordon or Marge" >>> Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: fuel selector-(both) >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>> Speedy11@aol.com >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:15 PM >>> Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>> >>> >>> Matt, >>> >>> My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone >>> considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. >>> I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however >>> I >>> have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. >>> I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement >>> went. >>> Stan Sutterfield >>> >>> Stan: You may be fine with a "both" position but my experience with the >>> RV-4 was not. If you haven't already, I suggest an in flight test. With >>> the -4 I found that fuel would flow from the dominant tank to the other >>> and >>> when it (the other) was full, fuel went overboard. The transfer was >>> rapid >>> enough that ~4 gal was transferred in about 15 minutes. Fuel can emerge >>> from the cap, flow to the flap gap and then flow inboard to the >>> wing/fuselage gap. >>> >>> Gordon Comfort >>> N363GC >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:14 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: RV8-List: Re: Fuel Both Selector John, What happens (ops tested) is when the both position is selected and one tank runs dry, air is drawn into the line and since air is easier to pump than fuel, the engine will falter. Selecting the tank with fuel remaining restores power immediately. Gravity feed does not matter since the electric pump is creating suction and you are switching from the both position to one tank. Then one is feeding fuel just as any RV that does not have a both position, that is, selecting left or right tank. It is the same as if one ran one tank dry and switched to the other. I've ops checked it. Stan Sutterfield If a tank runs low enough that it will suck air, that's what you get, air. No matter how much fuel is in the other tank( s ), unless gravity is helpin' out. John D ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:24 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders I have Van's capacitive senders in my tanks connected to AFS engine monitoring system, I would say it took a little time to calibrate them, and there not perfect they still are not to bad. Mark Rose 137MR 8A ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Bergeron To: rv8-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 5:37 PM Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders HI ALL: I'M ONE OF THE RV BUILDERS WHO'VE BEEN HASSLING WITH FUEL GAUGE ISSUES RIGHT FROM THE GET GO. I INSTALLED THE VANS CAPACITIVE PLATE SENDING UNITS IN MY TANKS AT TIME OF INITIAL CONSTRUCTION, THNKING I WAS DOING THE RIGHT THING. THE CAPACITIVE VALUES FROM THE TANKS FEED INTO PRINCETON SENDING UNITS - GET CONVERTED TO VOLTAGE VALUES - WHICH THEN FEED INTO THE EIS - AND FROM THERE TO THE GRT SCREEN. THIS COMBINATION DOESN'T WORK WORTH A DARN - IT'S DOWNRIGHT USELESS. THE GRT (GRAND RAPIDS TECHNOLOGY) IS A GREAT SYSTEM AND, WITH THIS ONE EXCEPTION, I'M VERY HAPPY WITH IT. I'M CONSIDERING DROPPING THE TANKS AND INSTALLING FLOAT TYPE SENDING UNITS. I KNOW FLOATS AREN'T ALL THAT ACCURATE BUT THEY'D SURE BEAT WHAT I'VE GOT NOW - WHICH IS ABOUT LIKE HAVING NO GAUGES AT ALL. HOWEVER - I'VE BEEN MULLING OVER ANOTHER OPTION - WHICH IS TO BUY AND INSTALL THE VANS EI FL - 2C GAUGE @ $415 AND TWO IE P - 300C CONVERTERS @ $45 EACH - A TOTAL OF $505 PLUS SHIPPING. I HATE TO PART WITH THE $ BUT I'VE GOT PLENTY OF SPACE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE PANEL AND I SEEM TO REMEMBER SEVERAL BUILDERS COMMENTING THIS COMBINATION WORKS GREAT; THAT WHEN VAN DESIGNED THE CAPACITIVE, PLATE STYLE SENDING UNITS, HE INTENDED THAT THEY BE USED WITH THE EI GAUGE AND CONVERTERS. (THEY SURE DON'T WORK WITH THE PRINCETON/GRT SYSTEM.) I'D APPRECIATE COMMENTS FROM ANYONE WITH EXPERIENCE WITH THE EI FUEL GAUGE AND CONVERTER UNITS AND CAPACITIVE PLATE SENDING UNITS. DAN BERGERON RV-7A - N307TB 149 HOURS SINCE FIRST FLIGHT ON 08/04/09 On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Michael Kraus wrote: By the time you went to all that hassle, you could have just removed yours and insalled them. It really isn't that big of a deal!!! I'd even venture to say you could remove your tanks and do it right faster than working on your back with angle tools...... Do not archive Sent from my iPhone On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Mike Cingari wrote: Matt, I would find someone with a QB 8 that has yet to install his S&W Floats and use his tanks to set up your floats. Then just transfer them to your tanks. That would minimize the down time and could be done with the wings installed. Good Luck, Mike Cingari On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:59 PM, RV8-List Digest Server wrote: * Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive Today's complete RV8-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the RV8-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html& Chapter 10-06-09&Archive=RV8 Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&C hapter 10-06-09&Archive=RV8 ====================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ====================== ---------------------------------------------------------- RV8-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/09/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:49 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (Michael Kraus) 2. 07:03 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (ualpilot3@aol.com) 3. 08:13 AM - Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (George Inman 204 287 8334) 4. 08:51 AM - Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (George Inman 204 287 8334) 5. 09:31 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Speedy11@aol.com) 6. 10:09 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Speedy11@aol.com) 7. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Terry Watson) 8. 01:19 PM - Van's Float type fuel indicator sensor bending accuracy (Vince Himsl) 9. 04:44 PM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... () 10. 05:43 PM - Re: Re: fuel selector-(both) (Gordon or Marge) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:11 AM PST US From: Michael Kraus Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... I removed my tanks on my RV-4 to make some modifications. I don't remember it being a big deal at all. I think it took less than 20 minutes per side with a drill motor. I think you'd have a much easier time in removing the tanks and doing it that way. Just one builders opinion.... -Mike Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: Dear Listers, Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to- wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! Thanks for the insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Blog http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: Enjoying The Fruits of 2500 Hours of Labor! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... From: ualpilot3@aol.com Matt, I just pulled the fuel senders off a RV-8A to replace the gasket. It is no problem doing it through the tank-fuselage space. Call me if you have any questions. 210-887-4546 Les Bourne -----Original Message----- From: Michael Kraus Sent: Wed, Jun 9, 2010 6:45 am Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... I removed my tanks on my RV-4 to make some modifications. I don't remember it being a big deal at all. I think it took less than 20 minutes per side with a drill motor. I think you'd have a much easier time in removing the tanks and doing it that way. Just one builders opinion.... -Mike Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: Dear Listers, Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton > capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea > from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or > the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from > underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-> wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units > without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I > can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might > just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come > off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying > weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August > or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much > do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for > the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these > units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out > once, I definitely don't want to do this again! Thanks for the insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Blog http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: Enjoying The Fruits of 2500 Hours of Labor! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:55 AM PST US From: George Inman 204 287 8334 Subject: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... Dear Listers, Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! Thanks for the insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV Matt I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders without removing the wing. So you should be able to install them. The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit an angle on bottom of the tank. George H. Inman ghinman@mts.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:09 AM PST US From: George Inman 204 287 8334 Subject: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... Dear Listers, Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! Thanks for the insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV Matt I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders without removing the wing. So you should be able to install them. The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit an angle on bottom of the tank. -- George H. Inman ghinman@mts.net ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:17 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Matt, Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old probes and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however I have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement went. Stan Sutterfield Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:36 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Matt, Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old probes and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however I have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement went. Stan Sutterfield Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:11:44 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Stan, Isn't there a cross-feed problem with a 'both' fuel selector on a low wing plane like an RV? Did you find a way to deal with that? Terry From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:15 AM Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Matt, Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old probes and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however I have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement went. Stan Sutterfield Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:54 PM PST US From: "Vince Himsl" Subject: RV8-List: Van's Float type fuel indicator sensor bending accuracy I have the standard float type from Van's. Following the bending instructions and Dynon D-180 cal procedure, my floats top out at about 16+ gallons (Dynon d-180 cal) and bottom with roughly 2 gallons remaining. I have no problem with that. On the ground I use visual inspection and the fuel flow sensor to gauge tank quantity. In the air I add in the fuel level indications; I have a tail dragger. On the ground a tail dragger fuel level indication is useless but in the air I rely on it as the last word even with the inaccuracies and erroneous deflections caused by the rigors of flight. If you are getting down around 7 gallons in each tank, you have @ 1.5 hours left and are (prudently) looking for a place to fill up. Assuming full tanks, my bladder goes yellow at 20 gal then red at 15; my brain goes yellow at 10, then red at 8; finally, my Dynon goes yellow at 7 (each tank) and red at 5. My fuel flow sensor (again from Dynon) has been surprisingly accurate. Any inaccuracy has been caused by filling the tanks too fast not allowing time for the fuel to settle past the baffles. In other words you have to fill and then wait for the gas to settle a couple of times else you won't really have full tanks. The fuel flow sensor won't catch this (you tell it when you add gas), but the float indicator will, starting at @ 15 gals each tank. So due to the nature of flight, regulations and safety, the question should not be "Are my fuel level indicators accurate?" The question should be "Are my fuel level indicators accurate enough?" Regards, Vince H. RV-8 N8432 57 hours From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: June 09, 2010 10:33 AM Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Stan, Isn't there a cross-feed problem with a 'both' fuel selector on a low wing plane like an RV? Did you find a way to deal with that? Terry From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:15 AM Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Matt, Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old probes and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however I have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement went. Stan Sutterfield Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:05 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... You can install the Van fuel floats without removing the wing. I don't know about removing the present probes. It will be eaiser if you didn't use pro seal or some other material on the gaskets. Louis Dunn RV8 some day ---- George Inman 204 287 8334 wrote: Dear Listers, Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! Thanks for the insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV Matt I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders without removing the wing. So you should be able to install them. The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit an angle on bottom of the tank. -- George H. Inman ghinman@mts.net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:46 PM PST US From: "Gordon or Marge" Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: fuel selector-(both) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Matt, My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however I have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement went. Stan Sutterfield Stan: You may be fine with a "both" position but my experience with the RV-4 was not. If you haven't already, I suggest an in flight test. With the -4 I found that fuel would flow from the dominant tank to the other and when it (the other) was full, fuel went overboard. The transfer was rapid enough that ~4 gal was transferred in about 15 minutes. Fuel can emerge from the cap, flow to the flap gap and then flow inboard to the wing/fuselage gap. Gordon Comfort N363GC ========== rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders From: Helsper I installed float type sending units (used with the grand rapids EIS) in an RV-7A a few years back. I remember the calibration took me several days to perfect. In the end, the calibration wasn't exact. I could make the system accurate from 0 to approx 3/4 full, or from 1/2 to completely full. I chose the 0 to approx 3/4 full calibration, to be on the safe side. Overall, I was happy with the outcome. I think my customer was happy too. ~Nick Helsper On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 9:42 PM, wrote: > I have Van's capacitive senders in my tanks connected to AFS engine > monitoring system, I would say it took a little time to calibrate them, and > there not perfect they still are not to bad. > > Mark Rose > 137MR 8A > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Dan Bergeron > *To:* rv8-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Friday, June 11, 2010 5:37 PM > *Subject:* Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders > > HI ALL: > I'M ONE OF THE RV BUILDERS WHO'VE BEEN HASSLING WITH FUEL GAUGE ISSUES > RIGHT FROM THE GET GO. I INSTALLED THE VANS CAPACITIVE PLATE SENDING UNITS > IN MY TANKS AT TIME OF INITIAL CONSTRUCTION, THNKING I WAS DOING THE RIGHT > THING. THE CAPACITIVE VALUES FROM THE TANKS FEED INTO PRINCETON SENDING > UNITS - GET CONVERTED TO VOLTAGE VALUES - WHICH THEN FEED INTO THE EIS - AND > FROM THERE TO THE GRT SCREEN. THIS COMBINATION DOESN'T WORK WORTH A DARN - > IT'S DOWNRIGHT USELESS. THE GRT (GRAND RAPIDS TECHNOLOGY) IS A GREAT SYSTEM > AND, WITH THIS ONE EXCEPTION, I'M VERY HAPPY WITH IT. > I'M CONSIDERING DROPPING THE TANKS AND INSTALLING FLOAT TYPE SENDING UNITS. > I KNOW FLOATS AREN'T ALL THAT ACCURATE BUT THEY'D SURE BEAT WHAT I'VE GOT > NOW - WHICH IS ABOUT LIKE HAVING NO GAUGES AT ALL. > HOWEVER - I'VE BEEN MULLING OVER ANOTHER OPTION - WHICH IS TO BUY AND > INSTALL THE VANS EI FL - 2C GAUGE @ $415 AND TWO IE P - 300C CONVERTERS @ > $45 EACH - A TOTAL OF $505 PLUS SHIPPING. I HATE TO PART WITH THE $ BUT > I'VE GOT PLENTY OF SPACE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE PANEL AND I SEEM TO > REMEMBER SEVERAL BUILDERS COMMENTING THIS COMBINATION WORKS GREAT; THAT WHEN > VAN DESIGNED THE CAPACITIVE, PLATE STYLE SENDING UNITS, HE INTENDED THAT > THEY BE USED WITH THE EI GAUGE AND CONVERTERS. (THEY SURE DON'T WORK WITH > THE PRINCETON/GRT SYSTEM.) > I'D APPRECIATE COMMENTS FROM ANYONE WITH EXPERIENCE WITH THE EI FUEL GAUGE > AND CONVERTER UNITS AND CAPACITIVE PLATE SENDING UNITS. > > DAN BERGERON > RV-7A - N307TB > 149 HOURS SINCE FIRST > FLIGHT ON 08/04/09 > > > On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Michael Kraus < > n223rv@wolflakeairport.net> wrote: > >> > >> >> By the time you went to all that hassle, you could have just removed yours >> and insalled them. It really isn't that big of a deal!!! I'd even venture >> to say you could remove your tanks and do it right faster than working on >> your back with angle tools...... >> >> Do not archive >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Mike Cingari wrote: >> >>> >>> Matt, >>> >>> I would find someone with a QB 8 that has yet to install his S&W Floats >>> and use his tanks to set up your floats. >>> >>> Then just transfer them to your tanks. That would minimize the down time >>> and could be done with the wings installed. >>> >>> Good Luck, >>> >>> Mike Cingari >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:59 PM, RV8-List Digest Server wrote: >>> >>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's complete RV8-List Digest can also be found in either of the >>>> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest >>>> formatted >>>> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes >>>> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version >>>> of the RV8-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor >>>> such as Notepad or with a web browser. >>>> >>>> HTML Version: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 10-06-09&Archive=RV8 >>>> >>>> Text Version: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 10-06-09&Archive=RV8 >>>> >>>> >>>> ====================== >>>> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive >>>> ====================== >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> RV8-List Digest Archive >>>> --- >>>> Total Messages Posted Wed 06/09/10: 10 >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Message Index: >>>> ---------------------- >>>> >>>> 1. 04:49 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (Michael Kraus) >>>> 2. 07:03 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (ualpilot3@aol.com >>>> ) >>>> 3. 08:13 AM - Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (George Inman 204 287 >>>> 8334) >>>> 4. 08:51 AM - Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (George Inman 204 287 >>>> 8334) >>>> 5. 09:31 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Speedy11@aol.com) >>>> 6. 10:09 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Speedy11@aol.com) >>>> 7. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Terry Watson) >>>> 8. 01:19 PM - Van's Float type fuel indicator sensor bending accuracy >>>> (Vince Himsl) >>>> 9. 04:44 PM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... () >>>> 10. 05:43 PM - Re: Re: fuel selector-(both) (Gordon or Marge) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ Message 1 >>>> _____________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Time: 04:49:11 AM PST US >>>> From: Michael Kraus >>>> Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>>> >>>> >>>> I removed my tanks on my RV-4 to make some modifications. I don't >>>> remember it being a big deal at all. I think it took less than 20 >>>> minutes per side with a drill motor. I think you'd have a much easier >>>> time in removing the tanks and doing it that way. >>>> >>>> Just one builders opinion.... >>>> -Mike >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Listers, >>>>> >>>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>>>> capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea >>>>> from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or >>>>> the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from >>>>> underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to- >>>>> wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>>>> >>>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units >>>>> without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I >>>>> can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might >>>>> just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come >>>>> off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying >>>>> weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August >>>>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>>> >>>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much >>>>> do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>>> >>>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for >>>>> the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these >>>>> units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out >>>>> once, I definitely don't want to do this again! >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the insight... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Matt Dralle >>>>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>>>> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Blog >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >>>>> Status: Enjoying The Fruits of 2500 Hours of Labor! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ Message 2 >>>> _____________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Time: 07:03:40 AM PST US >>>> Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>>> From: ualpilot3@aol.com >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt, >>>> >>>> I just pulled the fuel senders off a RV-8A to replace the gasket. It >>>> is no problem doing it through the tank-fuselage space. Call me if you >>>> have any questions. 210-887-4546 >>>> >>>> Les Bourne >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Michael Kraus >>>> Sent: Wed, Jun 9, 2010 6:45 am >>>> Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I removed my tanks on my RV-4 to make some modifications. I don't >>>> remember it being a big deal at all. I think it took less than 20 >>>> minutes per side with a drill motor. I think you'd have a much easier >>>> time in removing the tanks and doing it that way. >>>> >>>> Just one builders opinion.... >>>> -Mike >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear Listers, >>>>> >>>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton > >>>>> >>>> capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea > from >>>> Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or > the >>>> fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from > underneath >>>> the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-> wing >>>> fairing? Is this even possible? >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units > >>>>> >>>> without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I > >>>> can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might > >>>> just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come > >>>> off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying > >>>> weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August > or >>>> October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much > >>>>> >>>> do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for > >>>>> >>>> the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these > units >>>> so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out > once, I >>>> definitely don't want to do this again! >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the insight... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Matt Dralle >>>>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>>>> http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Blog >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel >>>>> Status: Enjoying The Fruits of 2500 Hours of Labor! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ Message 3 >>>> _____________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Time: 08:13:55 AM PST US >>>> From: George Inman 204 287 8334 >>>> Subject: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Listers, >>>> >>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>>> capacitance fuel >>>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>>> replaced >>>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>>> Basically >>>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>>> the >>>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>>> >>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>>> destroying >>>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>>> pulling >>>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>>> later. >>>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>>> enjoy >>>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>>> either August >>>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>> >>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>>> you have >>>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>> >>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>>> S&W float >>>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>>> one-shot deal. >>>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>>> this >>>> again! >>>> >>>> Thanks for the insight... >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt Dralle >>>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders >>>> without removing the wing. >>>> So you should be able to install them. >>>> The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have >>>> to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit >>>> an angle on bottom of the tank. >>>> >>>> George H. Inman >>>> ghinman@mts.net >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ Message 4 >>>> _____________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Time: 08:51:09 AM PST US >>>> From: George Inman 204 287 8334 >>>> Subject: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Listers, >>>> >>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>>> capacitance fuel >>>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>>> replaced >>>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>>> Basically >>>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>>> the >>>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>>> >>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>>> destroying >>>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>>> pulling >>>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>>> later. >>>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>>> enjoy >>>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>>> either August >>>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>> >>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>>> you have >>>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>> >>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>>> S&W float >>>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>>> one-shot deal. >>>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>>> this >>>> again! >>>> >>>> Thanks for the insight... >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt Dralle >>>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders >>>> without removing the wing. >>>> So you should be able to install them. >>>> The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have >>>> to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit >>>> an angle on bottom of the tank. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> George H. Inman >>>> ghinman@mts.net >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ Message 5 >>>> _____________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Time: 09:31:17 AM PST US >>>> From: Speedy11@aol.com >>>> Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt, >>>> Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same >>>> boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. >>>> I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old >>>> probes >>>> and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this >>>> guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. >>>> My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone >>>> considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. >>>> I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - >>>> however I >>>> have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. >>>> I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement >>>> went. >>>> Stan Sutterfield >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>>> capacitance >>>> fuel >>>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>>> replaced >>>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>>> Basically >>>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>>> the >>>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>>> >>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>>> destroying >>>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>>> pulling >>>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>>> later. >>>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>>> enjoy >>>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>>> either August >>>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>> >>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>>> you have >>>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>> >>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>>> S&W >>>> float >>>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>>> one-shot >>>> deal. >>>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>>> this >>>> again! >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ Message 6 >>>> _____________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Time: 10:09:36 AM PST US >>>> From: Speedy11@aol.com >>>> Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt, >>>> Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same >>>> boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. >>>> I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old >>>> probes >>>> and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this >>>> guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. >>>> My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone >>>> considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. >>>> I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - >>>> however I >>>> have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. >>>> I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement >>>> went. >>>> Stan Sutterfield >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>>> capacitance >>>> fuel >>>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>>> replaced >>>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>>> Basically >>>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>>> the >>>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>>> >>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>>> destroying >>>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>>> pulling >>>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>>> later. >>>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>>> enjoy >>>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>>> either August >>>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>> >>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>>> you have >>>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>> >>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>>> S&W >>>> float >>>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>>> one-shot >>>> deal. >>>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>>> this >>>> again! >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ Message 7 >>>> _____________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Time: 11:11:44 AM PST US >>>> From: "Terry Watson" >>>> Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>>> >>>> Stan, >>>> >>>> >>>> Isn't there a cross-feed problem with a 'both' fuel selector on a low >>>> wing >>>> plane like an RV? Did you find a way to deal with that? >>>> >>>> >>>> Terry >>>> >>>> >>>> From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com >>>> [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>>> Speedy11@aol.com >>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:15 AM >>>> Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt, >>>> >>>> Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same >>>> boat. >>>> And I've been thinking about removing mine also. >>>> >>>> I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old >>>> probes >>>> and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this >>>> guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. >>>> >>>> My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone >>>> considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. >>>> >>>> I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - >>>> however I >>>> have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. >>>> >>>> I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement >>>> went. >>>> >>>> Stan Sutterfield >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>>> capacitance >>>> fuel >>>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>>> replaced >>>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>>> Basically >>>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>>> the >>>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>>> >>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>>> destroying >>>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>>> pulling >>>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>>> later. >>>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>>> enjoy >>>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>>> either >>>> August >>>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>> >>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>>> you >>>> have >>>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>> >>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>>> S&W >>>> float >>>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>>> one-shot >>>> deal. >>>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>>> this >>>> again! >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ Message 8 >>>> _____________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Time: 01:19:54 PM PST US >>>> From: "Vince Himsl" >>>> Subject: RV8-List: Van's Float type fuel indicator sensor bending >>>> accuracy >>>> >>>> I have the standard float type from Van's. >>>> >>>> >>>> Following the bending instructions and Dynon D-180 cal procedure, my >>>> floats >>>> top out at about 16+ gallons (Dynon d-180 cal) and bottom with roughly 2 >>>> gallons remaining. I have no problem with that. >>>> >>>> >>>> On the ground I use visual inspection and the fuel flow sensor to gauge >>>> tank >>>> quantity. In the air I add in the fuel level indications; I have a tail >>>> dragger. >>>> >>>> >>>> On the ground a tail dragger fuel level indication is useless but in the >>>> air >>>> I rely on it as the last word even with the inaccuracies and erroneous >>>> deflections caused by the rigors of flight. If you are getting down >>>> around >>>> 7 gallons in each tank, you have @ 1.5 hours left and are (prudently) >>>> looking for a place to fill up. >>>> >>>> >>>> Assuming full tanks, my bladder goes yellow at 20 gal then red at 15; my >>>> brain goes yellow at 10, then red at 8; finally, my Dynon goes yellow at >>>> 7 >>>> (each tank) and red at 5. >>>> >>>> >>>> My fuel flow sensor (again from Dynon) has been surprisingly accurate. >>>> Any >>>> inaccuracy has been caused by filling the tanks too fast not allowing >>>> time >>>> for the fuel to settle past the baffles. In other words you have to >>>> fill >>>> and then wait for the gas to settle a couple of times else you won't >>>> really >>>> have full tanks. The fuel flow sensor won't catch this (you tell it when >>>> you >>>> add gas), but the float indicator will, starting at @ 15 gals each tank. >>>> >>>> >>>> So due to the nature of flight, regulations and safety, the question >>>> should >>>> not be "Are my fuel level indicators accurate?" The question should be >>>> "Are >>>> my fuel level indicators accurate enough?" >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Vince H. >>>> >>>> RV-8 N8432 57 hours >>>> >>>> >>>> From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com >>>> [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson >>>> Sent: June 09, 2010 10:33 AM >>>> Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>>> >>>> >>>> Stan, >>>> >>>> >>>> Isn't there a cross-feed problem with a 'both' fuel selector on a low >>>> wing >>>> plane like an RV? Did you find a way to deal with that? >>>> >>>> >>>> Terry >>>> >>>> >>>> From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com >>>> [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>>> Speedy11@aol.com >>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:15 AM >>>> Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt, >>>> >>>> Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same >>>> boat. >>>> And I've been thinking about removing mine also. >>>> >>>> I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old >>>> probes >>>> and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this >>>> guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. >>>> >>>> My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone >>>> considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. >>>> >>>> I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - >>>> however I >>>> have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. >>>> >>>> I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement >>>> went. >>>> >>>> Stan Sutterfield >>>> >>>> >>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>>> capacitance >>>> fuel >>>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>>> replaced >>>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>>> Basically >>>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>>> the >>>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>>> >>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>>> destroying >>>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>>> pulling >>>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>>> later. >>>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>>> enjoy >>>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>>> either >>>> August >>>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>> >>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>>> you >>>> have >>>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>> >>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>>> S&W >>>> float >>>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>>> one-shot >>>> deal. >>>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>>> this >>>> again! >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List >>>> >>>> http://forums.matronics.com >>>> >>>> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ Message 9 >>>> _____________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Time: 04:44:05 PM PST US >>>> From: >>>> Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... >>>> >>>> >>>> You can install the Van fuel floats without removing the wing. I don't >>>> know about >>>> removing the present probes. It will be eaiser if you didn't use pro >>>> seal or >>>> some other material on the gaskets. >>>> Louis Dunn >>>> RV8 some day >>>> >>>> ---- George Inman 204 287 8334 wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Listers, >>>>> >>>>> Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton >>>>> capacitance fuel >>>>> level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone >>>>> replaced >>>>> these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? >>>>> Basically >>>>> just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by >>>>> the >>>>> fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? >>>>> >>>>> I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without >>>>> destroying >>>>> them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without >>>>> pulling >>>>> the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than >>>>> later. >>>>> But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and >>>>> enjoy >>>>> the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in >>>>> either August >>>>> or October and it has to be complete before then either way. >>>>> >>>>> Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do >>>>> you have >>>>> to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. >>>>> >>>>> So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the >>>>> S&W float >>>>> arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a >>>>> one-shot deal. >>>>> I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do >>>>> this >>>>> again! >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the insight... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Matt Dralle >>>>> RV-8 #82880 N998RV >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Matt >>>>> >>>>> I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders >>>>> without removing the wing. >>>>> So you should be able to install them. >>>>> The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have >>>>> to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit >>>>> an angle on bottom of the tank. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> George H. Inman >>>>> ghinman@mts.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ Message 10 >>>> ____________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> Time: 05:43:46 PM PST US >>>> From: "Gordon or Marge" >>>> Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: fuel selector-(both) >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com >>>> [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >>>> Speedy11@aol.com >>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:15 PM >>>> Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders >>>> >>>> >>>> Matt, >>>> >>>> My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone >>>> considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. >>>> I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - >>>> however I >>>> have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. >>>> I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement >>>> went. >>>> Stan Sutterfield >>>> >>>> Stan: You may be fine with a "both" position but my experience with the >>>> RV-4 was not. If you haven't already, I suggest an in flight test. >>>> With >>>> the -4 I found that fuel would flow from the dominant tank to the other >>>> and >>>> when it (the other) was full, fuel went overboard. The transfer was >>>> rapid >>>> enough that ~4 gal was transferred in about 15 minutes. Fuel can >>>> emerge >>>> from the cap, flow to the flap gap and then flow inboard to the >>>> wing/fuselage gap. >>>> >>>> Gordon Comfort >>>> N363GC >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ========== >> rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:24 PM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders For what it's worth, I have the standard float senders and the Grand Rapids EIS. The nice aspect of the EIS is that you calibrate the readout to the tank level. Adding a gallon at a time, you note the EIS reading. Using the old line equation you learned in high school (Y = mX + B) and the data from the calibration, you solve for m and B (Y is the fuel level in gallons and X is the EIS reading at that level of gallons). For my plane I wanted the most accurate reading at low fuel levels so when bending the float arm I made sure the float travel went to the bottom of the tank. This yields at fuel indication range of 0 to 17 gallons. Any higher fuel level just reads 17 gallons. I find the EIS readout to be consistently within a gallon or two of the JPI fuel flow meter (after the fuel level drops below 17 gallons). This provides excellent confirmation that the fuel you think you have left on the flow meter is really in the tanks - not leaking out or a result of getting a less than topped off tank. Carl Froehlich RV-8A (540 hrs) RV-10 (system install) From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Bergeron Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 8:37 PM Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders HI ALL: I'M ONE OF THE RV BUILDERS WHO'VE BEEN HASSLING WITH FUEL GAUGE ISSUES RIGHT FROM THE GET GO. I INSTALLED THE VANS CAPACITIVE PLATE SENDING UNITS IN MY TANKS AT TIME OF INITIAL CONSTRUCTION, THNKING I WAS DOING THE RIGHT THING. THE CAPACITIVE VALUES FROM THE TANKS FEED INTO PRINCETON SENDING UNITS - GET CONVERTED TO VOLTAGE VALUES - WHICH THEN FEED INTO THE EIS - AND FROM THERE TO THE GRT SCREEN. THIS COMBINATION DOESN'T WORK WORTH A DARN - IT'S DOWNRIGHT USELESS. THE GRT (GRAND RAPIDS TECHNOLOGY) IS A GREAT SYSTEM AND, WITH THIS ONE EXCEPTION, I'M VERY HAPPY WITH IT. I'M CONSIDERING DROPPING THE TANKS AND INSTALLING FLOAT TYPE SENDING UNITS. I KNOW FLOATS AREN'T ALL THAT ACCURATE BUT THEY'D SURE BEAT WHAT I'VE GOT NOW - WHICH IS ABOUT LIKE HAVING NO GAUGES AT ALL. HOWEVER - I'VE BEEN MULLING OVER ANOTHER OPTION - WHICH IS TO BUY AND INSTALL THE VANS EI FL - 2C GAUGE @ $415 AND TWO IE P - 300C CONVERTERS @ $45 EACH - A TOTAL OF $505 PLUS SHIPPING. I HATE TO PART WITH THE $ BUT I'VE GOT PLENTY OF SPACE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE PANEL AND I SEEM TO REMEMBER SEVERAL BUILDERS COMMENTING THIS COMBINATION WORKS GREAT; THAT WHEN VAN DESIGNED THE CAPACITIVE, PLATE STYLE SENDING UNITS, HE INTENDED THAT THEY BE USED WITH THE EI GAUGE AND CONVERTERS. (THEY SURE DON'T WORK WITH THE PRINCETON/GRT SYSTEM.) I'D APPRECIATE COMMENTS FROM ANYONE WITH EXPERIENCE WITH THE EI FUEL GAUGE AND CONVERTER UNITS AND CAPACITIVE PLATE SENDING UNITS. DAN BERGERON RV-7A - N307TB 149 HOURS SINCE FIRST FLIGHT ON 08/04/09 On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Michael Kraus wrote: By the time you went to all that hassle, you could have just removed yours and insalled them. It really isn't that big of a deal!!! I'd even venture to say you could remove your tanks and do it right faster than working on your back with angle tools...... Do not archive Sent from my iPhone On Jun 10, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Mike Cingari wrote: Matt, I would find someone with a QB 8 that has yet to install his S&W Floats and use his tanks to set up your floats. Then just transfer them to your tanks. That would minimize the down time and could be done with the wings installed. Good Luck, Mike Cingari On Jun 9, 2010, at 11:59 PM, RV8-List Digest Server wrote: * Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive Today's complete RV8-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the RV8-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701 &View=html&Chapter 10-06-09&Archive=RV8 Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701 &View=txt&Chapter 10-06-09&Archive=RV8 ====================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ====================== ---------------------------------------------------------- RV8-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/09/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:49 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (Michael Kraus) 2. 07:03 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (ualpilot3@aol.com) 3. 08:13 AM - Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (George Inman 204 287 8334) 4. 08:51 AM - Replacing Fuel Level Senders... (George Inman 204 287 8334) 5. 09:31 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Speedy11@aol.com) 6. 10:09 AM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Speedy11@aol.com) 7. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders (Terry Watson) 8. 01:19 PM - Van's Float type fuel indicator sensor bending accuracy (Vince Himsl) 9. 04:44 PM - Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... () 10. 05:43 PM - Re: Re: fuel selector-(both) (Gordon or Marge) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:11 AM PST US From: Michael Kraus Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... I removed my tanks on my RV-4 to make some modifications. I don't remember it being a big deal at all. I think it took less than 20 minutes per side with a drill motor. I think you'd have a much easier time in removing the tanks and doing it that way. Just one builders opinion.... -Mike Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: Dear Listers, Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to- wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! Thanks for the insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Blog http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: Enjoying The Fruits of 2500 Hours of Labor! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... From: ualpilot3@aol.com Matt, I just pulled the fuel senders off a RV-8A to replace the gasket. It is no problem doing it through the tank-fuselage space. Call me if you have any questions. 210-887-4546 Les Bourne -----Original Message----- From: Michael Kraus Sent: Wed, Jun 9, 2010 6:45 am Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... I removed my tanks on my RV-4 to make some modifications. I don't remember it being a big deal at all. I think it took less than 20 minutes per side with a drill motor. I think you'd have a much easier time in removing the tanks and doing it that way. Just one builders opinion.... -Mike Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: Dear Listers, Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton > capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea > from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or > the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from > underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-> wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units > without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I > can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might > just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come > off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying > weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August > or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much > do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for > the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these > units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out > once, I definitely don't want to do this again! Thanks for the insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Blog http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: Enjoying The Fruits of 2500 Hours of Labor! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:55 AM PST US From: George Inman 204 287 8334 Subject: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... Dear Listers, Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! Thanks for the insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV Matt I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders without removing the wing. So you should be able to install them. The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit an angle on bottom of the tank. George H. Inman ghinman@mts.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:09 AM PST US From: George Inman 204 287 8334 Subject: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... Dear Listers, Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! Thanks for the insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV Matt I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders without removing the wing. So you should be able to install them. The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit an angle on bottom of the tank. -- George H. Inman ghinman@mts.net ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:17 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Matt, Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old probes and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however I have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement went. Stan Sutterfield Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:36 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Matt, Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old probes and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however I have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement went. Stan Sutterfield Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:11:44 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Stan, Isn't there a cross-feed problem with a 'both' fuel selector on a low wing plane like an RV? Did you find a way to deal with that? Terry From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:15 AM Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Matt, Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old probes and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however I have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement went. Stan Sutterfield Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:54 PM PST US From: "Vince Himsl" Subject: RV8-List: Van's Float type fuel indicator sensor bending accuracy I have the standard float type from Van's. Following the bending instructions and Dynon D-180 cal procedure, my floats top out at about 16+ gallons (Dynon d-180 cal) and bottom with roughly 2 gallons remaining. I have no problem with that. On the ground I use visual inspection and the fuel flow sensor to gauge tank quantity. In the air I add in the fuel level indications; I have a tail dragger. On the ground a tail dragger fuel level indication is useless but in the air I rely on it as the last word even with the inaccuracies and erroneous deflections caused by the rigors of flight. If you are getting down around 7 gallons in each tank, you have @ 1.5 hours left and are (prudently) looking for a place to fill up. Assuming full tanks, my bladder goes yellow at 20 gal then red at 15; my brain goes yellow at 10, then red at 8; finally, my Dynon goes yellow at 7 (each tank) and red at 5. My fuel flow sensor (again from Dynon) has been surprisingly accurate. Any inaccuracy has been caused by filling the tanks too fast not allowing time for the fuel to settle past the baffles. In other words you have to fill and then wait for the gas to settle a couple of times else you won't really have full tanks. The fuel flow sensor won't catch this (you tell it when you add gas), but the float indicator will, starting at @ 15 gals each tank. So due to the nature of flight, regulations and safety, the question should not be "Are my fuel level indicators accurate?" The question should be "Are my fuel level indicators accurate enough?" Regards, Vince H. RV-8 N8432 57 hours From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: June 09, 2010 10:33 AM Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Stan, Isn't there a cross-feed problem with a 'both' fuel selector on a low wing plane like an RV? Did you find a way to deal with that? Terry From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:15 AM Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Matt, Too bad you couldn't have removed them earlier. Well, I'm in the same boat. And I've been thinking about removing mine also. I haven't done it, but I believe you will be able to remove the old probes and install the float type without removing the tanks. I'm basing this guesstimate on eyeball, but my eyeball is often correct. My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however I have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement went. Stan Sutterfield Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:05 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV8-List: Replacing Fuel Level Senders... You can install the Van fuel floats without removing the wing. I don't know about removing the present probes. It will be eaiser if you didn't use pro seal or some other material on the gaskets. Louis Dunn RV8 some day ---- George Inman 204 287 8334 wrote: Dear Listers, Well, okay, so I've resigned myself to replacing my Princeton capacitance fuel level probes with the standard S&W float probea from Van's. Has anyone replaced these without removing the wing or the fuel tank from the airplane? Basically just doing it from underneath the airplane through the gap afforded by the fuselage-to-wing fairing? Is this even possible? I know that it won't be possible to remove the Princeton units without destroying them, but can the S&W probes be installed? If I can do it without pulling the fuel tanks or wings off, then I might just tackle this sooner than later. But if the tanks have to come off, then I might procrastinate more and enjoy the great flying weather. That being said, I'm going in for paint in either August or October and it has to be complete before then either way. Arg, why couldn't those Princeton probes just work? Geeze, how much do you have to spend to get a product that works. How frustrating. So, how accurate are the bending dimensions on the Van's plans for the S&W float arms? I've got no way to test or trial fit these units so its a one-shot deal. I've already pulled the probes out once, I definitely don't want to do this again! Thanks for the insight... Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV Matt I managed to remove and re-install my fuel senders without removing the wing. So you should be able to install them. The bending instructions are fairly accurate,but you will have to snap out and reverse the float on one side ,or it will hit an angle on bottom of the tank. -- George H. Inman ghinman@mts.net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:46 PM PST US From: "Gordon or Marge" Subject: RE: RV8-List: Re: fuel selector-(both) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:15 PM Subject: RV8-List: Re: Replacing Fuel Level Senders Matt, My Princeton fuel probes are absolutely worthless. I recommend anyone considering buying them to consider something else - anything else. I'm using timing and fuel flow to determine my fuel tank levels - however I have an advantage with a "Both" selection on my fuel selector. I, for one, will be awaiting your report on how the removal/replacement went. Stan Sutterfield Stan: You may be fine with a "both" position but my experience with the RV-4 was not. If you haven't already, I suggest an in flight test. With the -4 I found that fuel would flow from the dominant tank to the other and when it (the other) was full, fuel went overboard. The transfer was rapid enough that ~4 gal was transferred in about 15 minutes. Fuel can emerge from the cap, flow to the flap gap and then flow inboard to the wing/fuselage gap. Gordon Comfort N363GC ========== rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List ========== http://forums.matronics.com ========== le, List Admin. ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rv8-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV8-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv8-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv8-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.