RV8-List Digest Archive

Tue 08/17/10


Total Messages Posted: 8



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:28 AM - Re: Nutplate installation (pilotjt)
     2. 07:10 AM - RV Speeds (Speedy11@aol.com)
     3. 09:28 AM - Re: RV Speeds (William L. Paulin)
     4. 10:33 AM - Re: RV Speeds (Brian Huffaker)
     5. 10:52 AM - Re: RV Speeds (Matt Dralle)
     6. 11:16 AM - Re: RV Speeds (Timothy E. Cone)
     7. 08:42 PM - Re: RV Speeds (Speedy11@aol.com)
     8. 09:03 PM - Re: Re: RV Speeds (Matt Dralle)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:28:25 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Nutplate installation
    From: "pilotjt" <jtmccracken@gmail.com>
    Stan, Have you tried nutplate rivets? They can be installed with a standard rivet puller. :) http://www.cherryaerospace.com/html/product/blindrivets.html -------- Regards, JT RV8 N110JT FWF Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=309092#309092


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:10:58 AM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: RV Speeds
    I've done multiple GPS speed calculations and all of the TAS calculations came within one knot of the EFIS TAS numbers, so if I have a CAS error, it is not very large. My A is less draggy than a neighbors 390 powered A and we've used WOT side by side and I pull away from him. I'm also working on reducing drag before painting in the fall. I'm working on winglets, I'm fairing the aileron hinges and fuel drains, I'm working on cooling air drag, I'm making mods to the wheel pants, I have straight exhaust pipes for "jet effect," and other speed mods. The best I can do right now is 184 KIAS at 1K" - WOT and 2680 RPM. My goa l, with mods, is to indicate 188. I just can't seem to get the numbers that others are getting. Stan Sutterfield Airspeed calibration error .... or drag? BIll Matt, I must be doing something wrong because my IO-390 powered RV-8A numbers aren't even close to yours. At 7K', to get 177 KTAS (204 MPH TAS) I have to burn 10.2 GPH and turn 2450 RPM. I can get 3000 FPM climb, but only to pattern altitude. Enroute climb at 145-150 KIAS produces only 600 FPM. I've climbed to 15.5K' and I'm planning a test flight to FL240 - to see if it will make it. I have Bower's ram air and a MT 3 blade - both of which should help with high altitude performance. I'm planning a trip from FL to VT in 2 weeks, so I'll see how my cruise numbers are after that flight. But, with the numbers I have now, I'm nowhere near your numbers. I wonder why? Stan Sutterfield rv-8a.net On the way home, I had the IO-390 engine dialed in at 7000ft, 22.4" MP / 2200 RPM and 204 MPH True at 8.8 GPH. Earlier in the week I took it to 18,000ft (on oxygen) and was seeing 170 MPH True at 5.5 GPH, 192 MPH @ 6.5 GPH, and 202 MPG @ 7 GPH. At the 5.5 GPH, that's about a 1300 mile range less reserves. Coupled with the 3000+ FPM climb solo


    Message 3


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    Time: 09:28:40 AM PST US
    From: "William L. Paulin" <wpaulin@usa.net>
    Subject: Re: RV Speeds
    Sorry to act like an expert when I am only an obsolete aerodynamisist but: 1. If you are relatively sure of your weight, airspeed, altitude and engine calibrations (i.e., sure you are pretty close to lift, speed, altitude and thrust measures), then 2. Since T= D & L=W in unaccelerated flight, 3. Either your D is higher than the others (due to W --> L --> D ... or just D items), or they are wrong in their airplane performance measures. 4. If you believe their claims (I'd be careful here), then you have more W, less T or more D than you think. But since you pull away from your friend (and assuming his calibrations are OK), then my personal guess is that you have to doubt the other's claims / calibrations. If you don't, then my personal guess would be that since you probably know your engine (T) and W pretty well (but I am not an engine expert), the airframe D is the problem (out of rig, bad airfoils, etc., etc.) ... but your problem then becomes endless. Flying side by side seems the simplest way to get at differing "calibrations." But again, I am just guessing and probably no help at all. Bill On Aug 17, 2010, at 7:08 AM, Speedy11@aol.com wrote: I've done multiple GPS speed calculations and all of the TAS calculations came within one knot of the EFIS TAS numbers, so if I have a CAS error, it is not very large. My A is less draggy than a neighbors 390 powered A and we've used WOT side by side and I pull away from him. I'm also working on reducing drag before painting in the fall. I'm working on winglets, I'm fairing the aileron hinges and fuel drains, I'm working on cooling air drag, I'm making mods to the wheel pants, I have straight exhaust pipes for "jet effect," and other speed mods. The best I can do right now is 184 KIAS at 1K" - WOT and 2680 RPM. My goal, with mods, is to indicate 188. I just can't seem to get the numbers that others are getting. Stan Sutterfield Airspeed calibration error .... or drag? BIll Matt, I must be doing something wrong because my IO-390 powered RV-8A numbers aren't even close to yours. At 7K', to get 177 KTAS (204 MPH TAS) I have to burn 10.2 GPH and turn 2450 RPM. I can get 3000 FPM climb, but only to pattern altitude. Enroute climb at 145-150 KIAS produces only 600 FPM. I've climbed to 15.5K' and I'm planning a test flight to FL240 - to see if it will make it. I have Bower's ram air and a MT 3 blade - both of which should help with high altitude performance. I'm planning a trip from FL to VT in 2 weeks, so I'll see how my cruise numbers are after that flight. But, with the numbers I have now, I'm nowhere near your numbers. I wonder why? Stan Sutterfield rv-8a.net On the way home, I had the IO-390 engine dialed in at 7000ft, 22.4" MP / 2200 RPM and 204 MPH True at 8.8 GPH. Earlier in the week I took it to 18,000ft (on oxygen) and was seeing 170 MPH True at 5.5 GPH, 192 MPH @ 6.5 GPH, and 202 MPG @ 7 GPH. At the 5.5 GPH, that's about a 1300 mile range less reserves. Coupled with the 3000+ FPM climb solo *********************************** William & Sandra Paulin 1575 South Forest Drive Prescott, AZ 86303 Bill Cell +1 858 722 2905 Office +1 760 720 2905 Europe +358 40 720 4047 wpaulin@usa.net Sandy Cell +1 858 349 1729 Office +1 928 443 7739


    Message 4


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    Time: 10:33:44 AM PST US
    From: Brian Huffaker <bifft@xmission.com>
    Subject: Re: RV Speeds
    On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Speedy11@aol.com wrote: > The best I can do right now is 184 KIAS at 1K" - WOT and 2680 RPM. My goa > l, with mods, is to indicate 188. I just can't seem to get the numbers > that others are getting. I wonder how much of the difference is knots indicated vs mph true? 184 knots indicated would be 212 mph at sea level, about the same as Van's 180hp numbers. > On the way home, I had the IO-390 engine dialed in at 7000ft, 22.4" MP / > 2200 RPM and 204 MPH True at 8.8 GPH. Earlier in the week I took it to This calculator: http://www.newbyte.co.il/calc.html shows 204 TAS at 7000' (standard atmosphere) to be 184 mph CAS, or 160 KIAS. Brian Huffaker, DSWL (bifft@xmission.com) RV-8A 80091 Fitting wings 1/4 Starduster II N23UT flying


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:52:08 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Re: RV Speeds
    On multiple occasions, I have seen a top speed of 229-230 mph true at about 2000 msl, full throttle, and 2700 rpm, and gently leaned. This was confirmed by the GPS GS from both the EFIS GPS and the Kenwood GPS. The autopilot was on to assure no ascending/descending error. These were on cool evenings (70-75f). That being said, there are other days when it won't go much above 222-225 mph. I will rig up the cockpit HD video camera again to verify my readings... - Matt Dralle RV-8 #82880 N998RV http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel Status: 90+ Hours TTSN - Enjoying Every Minute... At 07:08 AM 8/17/2010 Tuesday, you wrote: > >I've done multiple GPS speed calculations and all of the TAS calculations came within one knot of the EFIS TAS numbers, so if I have a CAS error, it is not very large. >My A is less draggy than a neighbors 390 powered A and we've used WOT side by side and I pull away from him. I'm also working on reducing drag before painting in the fall. I'm working on winglets, I'm fairing the aileron hinges and fuel drains, I'm working on cooling air drag, I'm making mods to the wheel pants, I have straight exhaust pipes for "jet effect," and other speed mods. >The best I can do right now is 184 KIAS at 1K" - WOT and 2680 RPM. My goal, with mods, is to indicate 188. I just can't seem to get the numbers that others are getting. >Stan Sutterfield > >Airspeed calibration error .... or drag? > >BIll > > >Matt, >I must be doing something wrong because my IO-390 powered RV-8A numbers >aren't even close to yours. >At 7K', to get 177 KTAS (204 MPH TAS) I have to burn 10.2 GPH and turn >2450 RPM. I can get 3000 FPM climb, but only to pattern altitude. >Enroute climb at 145-150 KIAS produces only 600 FPM. I've climbed to >15.5K' and I'm planning a test flight to FL240 - to see if it will make >it. >I have Bower's ram air and a MT 3 blade - both of which should help with >high altitude performance. >I'm planning a trip from FL to VT in 2 weeks, so I'll see how my cruise >numbers are after that flight. >But, with the numbers I have now, I'm nowhere near your numbers. >I wonder why? >Stan Sutterfield >rv-8a.net >On the way home, I had the IO-390 engine dialed in at 7000ft, 22.4" MP / >2200 RPM and 204 MPH True at 8.8 GPH. Earlier in the week I took it to >18,000ft >(on oxygen) and was seeing 170 MPH True at 5.5 GPH, 192 MPH @ 6.5 GPH, >and >202 MPG @ 7 GPH. At the 5.5 GPH, that's about a 1300 mile range less >reserves. >Coupled with the 3000+ FPM climb solo > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:16:35 AM PST US
    From: "Timothy E. Cone" <tcone1@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: RV Speeds
    Matt, The National Test Pilot School has a nice excel spreadsheet for removing the effects of wind in determining true airspeed. http://www.ntps.edu/images/stories/documents/gps-pec.XLS Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:50 AM Subject: Re: RV8-List: RV Speeds > > On multiple occasions, I have seen a top speed of 229-230 mph true at > about 2000 msl, full throttle, and 2700 rpm, and gently leaned. This was > confirmed by the GPS GS from both the EFIS GPS and the Kenwood GPS. The > autopilot was on to assure no ascending/descending error. These were on > cool evenings (70-75f). > > That being said, there are other days when it won't go much above 222-225 > mph. > > I will rig up the cockpit HD video camera again to verify my readings... > > > - > Matt Dralle > RV-8 #82880 N998RV > http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's RV-8 Construction Log > http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel > Status: 90+ Hours TTSN - Enjoying Every Minute... > > > At 07:08 AM 8/17/2010 Tuesday, you wrote: >> >>I've done multiple GPS speed calculations and all of the TAS calculations >>came within one knot of the EFIS TAS numbers, so if I have a CAS error, it >>is not very large. >>My A is less draggy than a neighbors 390 powered A and we've used WOT side >>by side and I pull away from him. I'm also working on reducing drag >>before painting in the fall. I'm working on winglets, I'm fairing the >>aileron hinges and fuel drains, I'm working on cooling air drag, I'm >>making mods to the wheel pants, I have straight exhaust pipes for "jet >>effect," and other speed mods. >>The best I can do right now is 184 KIAS at 1K" - WOT and 2680 RPM. My >>goal, with mods, is to indicate 188. I just can't seem to get the numbers >>that others are getting. >>Stan Sutterfield >> >>Airspeed calibration error .... or drag? >> >>BIll >> >> >>Matt, >>I must be doing something wrong because my IO-390 powered RV-8A numbers >>aren't even close to yours. >>At 7K', to get 177 KTAS (204 MPH TAS) I have to burn 10.2 GPH and turn >>2450 RPM. I can get 3000 FPM climb, but only to pattern altitude. >>Enroute climb at 145-150 KIAS produces only 600 FPM. I've climbed to >>15.5K' and I'm planning a test flight to FL240 - to see if it will make >>it. >>I have Bower's ram air and a MT 3 blade - both of which should help with >>high altitude performance. >>I'm planning a trip from FL to VT in 2 weeks, so I'll see how my cruise >>numbers are after that flight. >>But, with the numbers I have now, I'm nowhere near your numbers. >>I wonder why? >>Stan Sutterfield >>rv-8a.net >>On the way home, I had the IO-390 engine dialed in at 7000ft, 22.4" MP / >>2200 RPM and 204 MPH True at 8.8 GPH. Earlier in the week I took it to >>18,000ft >>(on oxygen) and was seeing 170 MPH True at 5.5 GPH, 192 MPH @ 6.5 GPH, >>and >>202 MPG @ 7 GPH. At the 5.5 GPH, that's about a 1300 mile range less >>reserves. >>Coupled with the 3000+ FPM climb solo >> >> > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:42:52 PM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: Re: RV Speeds
    Well, I had to see what my IO-390 RV-8A would do at 18K, so today I climbed to 17,500 (couldn't get ATC clearance higher) and had the following numbers: 15.4" MP - 2400 RPM - 8.5 GPH - KIAS 124 - KTAS 166 (191 MPH) 15.4" MP - 2310 RPM - 9.0 GPH - KIAS 120 - KTAS 162 (186 MPH) Fuel pump was out of service, so I'll confirm the actual fuel burn next week. I'm simply not getting your numbers, Matt. Must be my ham fisted flying. I can't imagine that the engines are that much different. Scratching my cranium. Stan Sutterfield Matt, I must be doing something wrong because my IO-390 powered RV-8A numbers aren't even close to yours. At 7K', to get 177 KTAS (204 MPH TAS) I have to burn 10.2 GPH and turn 2450 RPM. I can get 3000 FPM climb, but only to pattern altitude. Enroute climb at 145-150 KIAS produces only 600 FPM. I've climbed to 15.5K' and I'm planning a test flight to FL240 - to see if it will make it. I have Bower's ram air and a MT 3 blade - both of which should help with high altitude performance. I'm planning a trip from FL to VT in 2 weeks, so I'll see how my cruise numbers are after that flight. But, with the numbers I have now, I'm nowhere near your numbers. I wonder why? Stan Sutterfield rv-8a.net On the way home, I had the IO-390 engine dialed in at 7000ft, 22.4" MP / 2200 RPM and 204 MPH True at 8.8 GPH. Earlier in the week I took it to 18,000ft (on oxygen) and was seeing 170 MPH True at 5.5 GPH, 192 MPH @ 6.5 GPH, and 202 MPG @ 7 GPH. At the 5.5 GPH, that's about a 1300 mile range less reserves. Coupled with the 3000+ FPM climb solo


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:03:49 PM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Re: RV Speeds
    Looks to me like your RPMs are WAY too high! At 5.5gph I was at 2000 RPM. Lowering the RPM is how you get the flow rates down. Bigger bite might make you go faster too. I want to say that at 5.5/2000/18000/170mph I was at about 12.5" MP. I think that I took still pictures of the EFIS's in all the various configurations I did. I'll download them from the Camera and double check my numbers. Matt At 08:36 PM 8/17/2010 Tuesday, you wrote: > >Well, I had to see what my IO-390 RV-8A would do at 18K, so today I climbed to 17,500 (couldn't get ATC clearance higher) and had the following numbers: >15.4" MP - 2400 RPM - 8.5 GPH - KIAS 124 - KTAS 166 (191 MPH) >15.4" MP - 2310 RPM - 9.0 GPH - KIAS 120 - KTAS 162 (186 MPH) >Fuel pump was out of service, so I'll confirm the actual fuel burn next week. >I'm simply not getting your numbers, Matt. Must be my ham fisted flying. I can't imagine that the engines are that much different. >Scratching my cranium. >Stan Sutterfield >Matt, >I must be doing something wrong because my IO-390 powered RV-8A numbers >aren't even close to yours. >At 7K', to get 177 KTAS (204 MPH TAS) I have to burn 10.2 GPH and turn 2450 >RPM. I can get 3000 FPM climb, but only to pattern altitude. Enroute >climb at 145-150 KIAS produces only 600 FPM. I've climbed to 15.5K' and I'm >planning a test flight to FL240 - to see if it will make it. >I have Bower's ram air and a MT 3 blade - both of which should help with >high altitude performance. >I'm planning a trip from FL to VT in 2 weeks, so I'll see how my cruise >numbers are after that flight. >But, with the numbers I have now, I'm nowhere near your numbers. >I wonder why? >Stan Sutterfield >rv-8a.net > >On the way home, I had the IO-390 engine dialed in at 7000ft, 22.4" MP / >2200 RPM and 204 MPH True at 8.8 GPH. Earlier in the week I took it to >18,000ft >(on oxygen) and was seeing 170 MPH True at 5.5 GPH, 192 MPH @ 6.5 GPH, and >202 MPG @ 7 GPH. At the 5.5 GPH, that's about a 1300 mile range less >reserves. >Coupled with the 3000+ FPM climb solo > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft




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