Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:22 AM - Re: Drilling (Steve Sampson)
2. 05:54 PM - Re: [RV-9A] Flap installation (Curt Hoffman)
3. 06:12 PM - Re: Drilling (Merems)
4. 06:28 PM - Re: Drilling (DThomas773@aol.com)
5. 07:06 PM - Quiet Drills (Merems)
6. 07:26 PM - Re: Quiet Drills (Mark Schrimmer)
7. 08:16 PM - Re: Drilling (Merems)
8. 09:01 PM - Re: Drilling (Andy Karmy)
9. 09:54 PM - Re: proseal (Albert Gardner)
10. 10:12 PM - Re: Drilling (Albert Gardner)
11. 10:30 PM - Re: Quiet Drills (Ken Moak)
12. 10:35 PM - Re: Drilling (Gary)
13. 10:46 PM - Re: Drilling (Gary)
Message 1
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--> RV9-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
Jim et al - thanks for that. Slower drilling seems to help.
No section in my manual re drilling. Perhaps I have an early edition. I
started in early '01.
The hole is too deep in the rear spar attachment for the unibit. You need to
go through 4 thick layers!
Thanks, Steve.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv9-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Hosie
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Drilling
--> RV9-List message posted by: "Jim Hosie" <jhosie4@attbi.com>
Steve,
Try slowing your drill speed down.
The larger the drill bit the slower the speed.
In the instruction binder there is a section on drilling and speeds.
Jim Hosie
N-9SU
Wings
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
Subject: RV9-List: Drilling
> --> RV9-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson"
<SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
>
> Daft question which I ought to know the answer to!
>
> On the rare occasion in the past when I drill a large hole I have
> occasionally seen a tendancy for it to be slightly triangular. Now I have
> to drill the 5/16th holes for the rear spar. Before I do I want to make
sure
> this is not going to hapeen. I did a test piece today and sure enough iit
> was slightly out of true. What is going on please?
>
> Thanks guys! Steve.
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: [RV-9A] Flap installation |
--> RV9-List message posted by: "Curt Hoffman" <choffman9@cinci.rr.com>
Well it's done. Vans recommended remounting the bracket and so that is what
I am doing. I removed the flap and the drilling of the bushing I tried
removed maybe 1/64" of the flange of the bushing. I'm a little surprised
that the bolt was so hard to get in with that little bit of misalignment but
it was.
Took about 45 minutes per side to remove all the rivets and clean everything
up for reinstallation. Less time actually then I spent stewing about it. (I
had the exact same misalignment on both flaps indicating a very repeatable
but incorrect technique used for alignment of the center bracket.
In hindsight I would recommend not installing that center bracket until you
mount the flap and then install it where it lands with the bracket held to
the flap. This is essentially what I will be doing now. A little tougher now
that my top skins are riveted on but not remarkably so. At least I didn't
have to remove the flap gap seal. I was very easily able to leave the angle
bracket mounted to the rear spar.
Now I will reinstall the bracket and put a doubler on the rib side to make
up for any enlargement of the holes in the ribs by moving the bracket. Given
the very small misalignment I suspect the holes won't get much bigger but
it's easy to do and I'm not going to remove this stuff again. Plus I was
wondering what I was going to do with some of the extra aluminum I have
laying around.
Curt Hoffman
RV-9A wings and tail
1968 Mustang 302 convertible
Piper Cherokee N5320W
----- Original Message -----
From: <johncclarkva@cs.com>
Subject: Re: [RV-9A] Flap installation
> Curt, just how far out of alignment is your center hinge? 1/2 hole dia or
less? A slight bit of misalignment is not a problem, expecially if it
causes the flap to bend in plane (that is bend as the wing bends) May be a
problem if is causes the center hinge to move fore or aft, but I would bet
not. Remember that the wing will flex slightly while in flight and that may
have the tendency to relieve the problem, or could be further out. I would
wait for Van's answer. Flutter is not an issue if you only oversized the
bushing. If it is very far out, the flap will flex each cycle (probably not
much of an issue). I would rather go with a slight misalignment that
remanufacturer the flap brackets, etc. Do you feel any binding when you
cycle the flaps by hand? John.
>
Message 3
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--> RV9-List message posted by: "Merems" <merems@cox.net>
Gary,
Indeed reaming is impractical and unnecessary for rivet holes and most bolt
holes. Back in the good old days when RV spars were built by the builder
(Plans built RV-4) the close tolerance holes were reamed for size. In
general I do not ream my bolt holes, but it will yield the best results and
very good internal surface finish. Most of the standard AN bolts have a
loose tolerance on size so reaming isn't going to make a big difference in
terms of fit. I will ream any holes that I can in control parts
(bellcranks, control sticks, landing gear legs, brake attach. etc). Most of
the powder painted steel parts supplied with the empennage need to have the
3/16" holes opened up because of paint buildup. I "back" reamed these to
produce a perfect hole. One method I like to use a what I call "back"
reaming. Basically if you are trying to ream a clevis end on a control
stick, as an example, if you try to drill/ream the traditional way you may
elongate the first hole as you are drilling/reaming the second (happened on
my RV-4 tail wheel yoke-had to replace it). If you drill a hole that is
undersized by about .005" and insert the shank end of the reamer through the
holes and attach the drill to the shank you can then "back" ream the holes
by powering up the drill and pulling the reamer through the holes. It works
very well and is almost foul proof. So since I have the reamers in my tool
collection, it only takes a few seconds to use them when it is practical.
Having a 3/16" and 1/4" reamer ($5 each) in you tool box is a good thing.
I used to build Navy fighters for Grumman Aerospace Corp. Drilling good
holes in very expensive aircraft parts Government owned) was taken very
seriously there. Drilling holes in my RV parts is even more expensive to me
and I have extended some of what I have learned into the construction of my
RV-4 and now RV-7A. At a point in time when you are drilling your wing rear
spar attach to the fuselage, you may want to get the best hole you can. If
it gets elongated or isn't quite right, you may not be able to safely
enlarge it and then you are in for some major repairs (just an example).
I hope this helps
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <rv9er@3rivers.net>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Drilling
> --> RV9-List message posted by: "Gary" <rv9er@3rivers.net>
>
> Paul,
>
> Lots of holes in thin material in an RV....... I don't know of anyone who
reams very many of them. I reamed the tip-up hinge holes, and a few others
that act as pivots or critical areas, but not in thin material. For big
holes in thin stuff, I use a Unibit, as was previously mentioned by others
on the list.
>
> Reaming is sort of impractical in many instances......Which holes did you
ream?
>
> Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Merems
> To: rv9-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 8:50 AM
> Subject: Re: RV9-List: Drilling
>
>
> --> RV9-List message posted by: "Merems" <merems@cox.net>
>
> Gary,
>
> The only way to get a truly round hole is to ream the hole when
finished.
> This triangular hole condition is most noticeable in thin materials.
The
> best way to minimize this condition is to pilot drill and enlarge.
>
> Paul
>
>
> ---
> Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 12/24/02
>
>
Message 4
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--> RV9-List message posted by: DThomas773@aol.com
I find this discussion of reaming interesting because I have none of these
tools in my box and don't know how to use them. The only reamers I've seen
for sale are in the Cleveland catologue and called straight flute reamers.
How do they work? It would seem if the hole is large enough for the tool to
be inserted it would be as large as it needs to be. What good is turning a
cutter inside a hole that is already full size? If it isn't full size, how do
you get the tool in it? I'm looking at the wing attach bolts and tried test
fitting them in the center section. They are really tight! I sprayed them
with WD-40 and they go in but really need coaxing. Just pushing them in with
my fingers tends to remove some of the cadmium plating. I would appreciate
any general information anyone would care to share with me.
Dennis Thomas 90164
9-taildragger, tip up
starting fuselage
Message 5
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--> RV9-List message posted by: "Merems" <merems@cox.net>
I have seen posting from builders about there mega compressors and their air drills.
Everyone knows that if your really are going to be an airplane builder
you must use air drills. Just about every major aircraft company uses air drills,
so they must be the right choice.
Well here is some real food for thought if you haven't made the plunge yet. I
image most builders build there RV's in their garage. Most of these garages maybe
attached to their homes and many are in a neighborhoods. I used electric
drills on my RV-4 and I thought I would graduate up to the big leagues with an
air drill on my RV-7 project. I have been eyeing that big 60 gallon upright
220 Volt Husky compressor at Home Depot for years. My time had come, I was going
to load that baby in the back of my pickup and join the few, the proud the,
"real" builders. Then I saw it, on sale, price reduced, a CH air drill at
Home Depot. I thought to my self, I can buy it an see if it has a good "teasing"
throttle on it. This is important because without slow speed control of the
drill, it will very hard to use. So I bought it and took it home and hooked
it up to my 20 gal. 110 volt compressor I have had for 20 years. I wanted to
see how loud the drill was and how many holes I could drill until the compressor
would startup. I got about 5 holes drilled and the compressor chimed in.
I had the pressure set to 65-70 psi. Not only was the whine of the air drill
motor and the compressor cranking in to stay up with every 5 holes annoying
to my ears, but the spitting of the light oil from the air drill onto my hands
and onto the parts I was drilling made matters intolerable. Seeing that I could
barely tolerate the noise in the shop, my neighbors would have to endure some
of the collateral noise coming from my shop. Considering there are over 10,000
rivets in an RV, my compressor would mostly be running continuously when
I would be drilling and a few pints of oil (exaggerated) would be misting on
my parts. If I bought the 60 gallon compressor it wouldn't run as much, but still
quiet a bit.
After considering the noise (to me and my neighbors-which might just be your wife
in the room next to the garage), the oily mess, the cost of the Mega compressor,
I decided the electric drill worked before and it will work again. I researched
what was available on the market and was disappointed by the weight of
many of the electric drills out there. If you buy the cheep electric drills,
they won't last through the project. I settled on a Makita 6410 3/8 VSR 2200
RPM. It has a low noise rating and is 1/2 lbs or so lighter then any other
"quality" drill on the market. I bought it for $32.00 delivered (Tool King).
Van talks about cutting speeds of 2000-3000 rpms to drill aluminum. Since most
of the new RV kits are pre-punched, you are not drilling out a lot of material.
In fact, I find that I run my drill rather slowly most of the time. When
I microstop machine countersink is when I run my drill at full bore.
Food for thought
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Quiet Drills |
--> RV9-List message posted by: Mark Schrimmer <mschrimmer@pacbell.net>
on 2/3/03 7:15 PM, Merems at merems@cox.net wrote:
> --> RV9-List message posted by: "Merems" <merems@cox.net>
>
> I have seen posting from builders about there mega compressors and their air
> drills. Everyone knows that if your really are going to be an airplane
> builder you must use air drills.
I agree with you. My wife constantly complains about the noise from my
compressor, even though it's a model that was rated by a magazine as one of
the most quiet. To minimize the use of the compressor, I have an
industrial-sized electric Dremel tool that accepts the same scotch brite
wheels and sanding disks as my air-driven die grinder. For drilling holes I
use a 20 year old Black and Decker electric that spins at 2,500 rpm and has
a great teasing trigger. I get lots of flack from fellow builders who tell
me that "real airplane builders use air drills", but so far it's worked OK
for the wings, tail and part of the fuselage.
There is one complaint I have with the electric drill--it's heavy. When
you're enlarging a couple of hundred holes, it would be nice to have a
small, lightweight air drill, but so far I've managed to do OK without it.
Mark Schrimmer
Do not archive
Message 7
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--> RV9-List message posted by: "Merems" <merems@cox.net>
As you mentioned most if not all reamers are straight fluted. The main
difference between a drill and a reamer is that drills have a angled cutting
edge (on the tip) and a spiral twist to remove the material and a reamer
cuts on sides of the reamer and has several cutting edges. A reamer is also
more precisely ground. Typically a reamer might be 4" long with 2" long
cutting edges. The remaining shank will be about .030" smaller in diameter
then the cutting diameter. Sometimes you can insert a reamer in a hole that
is already reamed to size and turn it in a drill and move it in and out of
the hole (never actually removing it completely from the hole) to clean up
the hole to get a little more clearance. Reamers are only design to remove
a very small amount of material. Reamers wear so it maybe possible that
when some of the parts were originally reamed they were reamed with a
slightly worn reamer and produced a slightly undersized hole.
I hope this helps,
----- Original Message -----
From: <DThomas773@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Drilling
> --> RV9-List message posted by: DThomas773@aol.com
>
> I find this discussion of reaming interesting because I have none of these
> tools in my box and don't know how to use them. The only reamers I've
seen
> for sale are in the Cleveland catologue and called straight flute reamers.
> How do they work? It would seem if the hole is large enough for the tool
to
> be inserted it would be as large as it needs to be. What good is turning
a
> cutter inside a hole that is already full size? If it isn't full size, how
do
> you get the tool in it? I'm looking at the wing attach bolts and tried
test
> fitting them in the center section. They are really tight! I sprayed them
> with WD-40 and they go in but really need coaxing. Just pushing them in
with
> my fingers tends to remove some of the cadmium plating. I would appreciate
> any general information anyone would care to share with me.
>
> Dennis Thomas 90164
> 9-taildragger, tip up
> starting fuselage
>
>
Message 8
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--> RV9-List message posted by: "Andy Karmy" <andy@karmy.com>
Those are the exact reamers that I have. The ones from Cleveland. Just your basic
straight fluted reamers.
As to how to use them. The key is that the nose end of the reamer is tapered just
enough and has the flutes sharpened so that you simply drill one size down
from what you are trying to ream, then press it into the hole where the nose bites
in and the reamer goes in nice as can be.
I just did this for my rear spar attach holes. I started with #30, then 1/4", then
just under the 5/16" final hole, then reamed to 5/16. Came out as perfect
as you please. Nice and round.
- Andy Karmy
RV9A Seattle WA - WINGS ARE ON!
http://www.karmy.com/rv9a
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: DThomas773@aol.com
>--> RV9-List message posted by: DThomas773@aol.com
>
>I find this discussion of reaming interesting because I have none of these
>tools in my box and don't know how to use them. The only reamers I've seen
>for sale are in the Cleveland catologue and called straight flute reamers.
>How do they work? It would seem if the hole is large enough for the tool to
>be inserted it would be as large as it needs to be. What good is turning a
>cutter inside a hole that is already full size? If it isn't full size, how do
>you get the tool in it? I'm looking at the wing attach bolts and tried test
>fitting them in the center section. They are really tight! I sprayed them
>with WD-40 and they go in but really need coaxing. Just pushing them in with
>my fingers tends to remove some of the cadmium plating. I would appreciate
>any general information anyone would care to share with me.
>
>Dennis Thomas 90164
>9-taildragger, tip up
>starting fuselage
>
>
Message 9
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--> RV9-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner@worldnet.att.net>
I (and many other) clekoed the tank together, let the proseal set up for 2
or 3 days and then put rivets in. It's less messy, I think the rivets are
set better because the bucking bar isn't sliding around, and a lot easier.
You put a small dab of proseal in the hole when you set the rivet to seal
it. The clekoes are fairly easy to clean, you pull most of the cured stuff
off and I chucked up a rotary wire brush in my drill press to clean off the
remainder. After proseal cures it is quite rubbery. No leaks, but either
method seems to work quite well for others.
Albert Gardner
N872RV
Airworthiness Inspection scheduled for this coming Sat.!
Message 10
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--> RV9-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" <albert.gardner@worldnet.att.net>
On some occasions you can take the Unibit as far as it will go-then use a
grinder to take the hole the rest of the way matching what the Unibit has
removed..
Albert Gardner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
>
> The hole is too deep in the rear spar attachment for the unibit. You need
to
> go through 4 thick layers!
>
> Thanks, Steve.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Quiet Drills |
--> RV9-List message posted by: Ken Moak <ken_moak@yahoo.com>
When I was building in my garage the compressor was a
problem, took about 30 seconds to decide it had to go.
Moved it into a storage shed at the far end of the
house, figured the lawn mower had no room to complain.
Then I ran 3/4 inch PVC pipe through the attic to
garage.
With my workshop I put the compressor outside and put
a dog house around it, neigbors have not complained
and I can barely hear it.
At times I will use an 18V Dewalt drill, been happy
with the results on it. I think I like it for the
micro stop best. Air Drill, Electric both have there
advantages. What I would really miss without air is
the die grinder. My Dremil is ok but not the best.
I do know that after having 3 compressors, an oil bath
compressor and an oil less I will never have another
oil less, even if I need a cheap porable it will be an
oil bath, not quiet but a heck of a lot closer.
Ken
do not archive
--- Merems <merems@cox.net> wrote:
> --> RV9-List message posted by: "Merems"
> <merems@cox.net>
>
> I have seen posting from builders about there mega
> compressors and their air drills. Everyone knows
> that if your really are going to be an airplane
> builder you must use air drills. Just about every
> major aircraft company uses air drills, so they must
> be the right choice.
>
> Well here is some real food for thought if you
> haven't made the plunge yet. I image most builders
> build there RV's in their garage. Most of these
> garages maybe attached to their homes and many are
> in a neighborhoods. I used electric drills on my
> RV-4 and I thought I would graduate up to the big
> leagues with an air drill on my RV-7 project. I
> have been eyeing that big 60 gallon upright 220 Volt
> Husky compressor at Home Depot for years. My time
> had come, I was going to load that baby in the back
> of my pickup and join the few, the proud the, "real"
> builders. Then I saw it, on sale, price reduced, a
> CH air drill at Home Depot. I thought to my self, I
> can buy it an see if it has a good "teasing"
> throttle on it. This is important because without
> slow speed control of the drill, it will very hard
> to use. So I bought it and took it home and hooked
> it up to my 20 gal. 110 volt compressor I have had
> for 20 years. I wanted to see how loud the drill
> was and how many holes I co!
> uld drill until the compressor would startup. I got
> about 5 holes drilled and the compressor chimed in.
> I had the pressure set to 65-70 psi. Not only was
> the whine of the air drill motor and the compressor
> cranking in to stay up with every 5 holes annoying
> to my ears, but the spitting of the light oil from
> the air drill onto my hands and onto the parts I was
> drilling made matters intolerable. Seeing that I
> could barely tolerate the noise in the shop, my
> neighbors would have to endure some of the
> collateral noise coming from my shop. Considering
> there are over 10,000 rivets in an RV, my compressor
> would mostly be running continuously when I would be
> drilling and a few pints of oil (exaggerated) would
> be misting on my parts. If I bought the 60 gallon
> compressor it wouldn't run as much, but still quiet
> a bit.
>
> After considering the noise (to me and my
> neighbors-which might just be your wife in the room
> next to the garage), the oily mess, the cost of the
> Mega compressor, I decided the electric drill worked
> before and it will work again. I researched what
> was available on the market and was disappointed by
> the weight of many of the electric drills out there.
> If you buy the cheep electric drills, they won't
> last through the project. I settled on a Makita
> 6410 3/8 VSR 2200 RPM. It has a low noise rating
> and is 1/2 lbs or so lighter then any other
> "quality" drill on the market. I bought it for
> $32.00 delivered (Tool King).
>
> Van talks about cutting speeds of 2000-3000 rpms to
> drill aluminum. Since most of the new RV kits are
> pre-punched, you are not drilling out a lot of
> material. In fact, I find that I run my drill
> rather slowly most of the time. When I microstop
> machine countersink is when I run my drill at full
> bore.
>
> Food for thought
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV9-List.htm
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Message 12
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--> RV9-List message posted by: "Gary" <rv9er@3rivers.net>
Thanks, Paul. Those are about the same things I would ream, but I had never heard
of the "back reaming" technique before.
Thanks for the tip.
Gary
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: Merems
To: rv9-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Drilling
--> RV9-List message posted by: "Merems" <merems@cox.net>
Gary,
Indeed reaming is impractical and unnecessary for rivet holes and most bolt
holes. Back in the good old days when RV spars were built by the builder
(Plans built RV-4) the close tolerance holes were reamed for size. In
general I do not ream my bolt holes, but it will yield the best results and
very good internal surface finish. Most of the standard AN bolts have a
loose tolerance on size so reaming isn't going to make a big difference in
terms of fit. I will ream any holes that I can in control parts
(bellcranks, control sticks, landing gear legs, brake attach. etc). Most of
the powder painted steel parts supplied with the empennage need to have the
3/16" holes opened up because of paint buildup. I "back" reamed these to
produce a perfect hole. One method I like to use a what I call "back"
reaming. Basically if you are trying to ream a clevis end on a control
stick, as an example, if you try to drill/ream the traditional way you may
elongate the first hole as you are drilling/reaming the second (happened on
my RV-4 tail wheel yoke-had to replace it). If you drill a hole that is
undersized by about .005" and insert the shank end of the reamer through the
holes and attach the drill to the shank you can then "back" ream the holes
by powering up the drill and pulling the reamer through the holes. It works
very well and is almost foul proof. So since I have the reamers in my tool
collection, it only takes a few seconds to use them when it is practical.
Having a 3/16" and 1/4" reamer ($5 each) in you tool box is a good thing.
I used to build Navy fighters for Grumman Aerospace Corp. Drilling good
holes in very expensive aircraft parts Government owned) was taken very
seriously there. Drilling holes in my RV parts is even more expensive to me
and I have extended some of what I have learned into the construction of my
RV-4 and now RV-7A. At a point in time when you are drilling your wing rear
spar attach to the fuselage, you may want to get the best hole you can. If
it gets elongated or isn't quite right, you may not be able to safely
enlarge it and then you are in for some major repairs (just an example).
I hope this helps
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <rv9er@3rivers.net>
To: <rv9-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Re: RV9-List: Drilling
> --> RV9-List message posted by: "Gary" <rv9er@3rivers.net>
>
> Paul,
>
> Lots of holes in thin material in an RV....... I don't know of anyone who
reams very many of them. I reamed the tip-up hinge holes, and a few others
that act as pivots or critical areas, but not in thin material. For big
holes in thin stuff, I use a Unibit, as was previously mentioned by others
on the list.
>
> Reaming is sort of impractical in many instances......Which holes did you
ream?
>
> Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Merems
> To: rv9-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 8:50 AM
> Subject: Re: RV9-List: Drilling
>
>
> --> RV9-List message posted by: "Merems" <merems@cox.net>
>
> Gary,
>
> The only way to get a truly round hole is to ream the hole when
finished.
> This triangular hole condition is most noticeable in thin materials.
The
> best way to minimize this condition is to pilot drill and enlarge.
>
> Paul
>
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--> RV9-List message posted by: "Gary" <rv9er@3rivers.net>
Dennis........don't ream those main spar holes! While what the others have said
about reaming is good information, you don't want to loosten those holes that
mount the front wing spar.
Try different bolts in a given hole. There is some variation in the diameter of
the bolts. I juggled mine around to find the smaller bolts for the tighter
holes. If you can get them in with some careful tapping with a wood mallet, even
if it marks the plating a little, leave it at that.
As Andy and others said, use a reamer on the rear spar hole that you drill. The
only thing on the main spar assembly that I would clean or enlarge the holes
on would be the powder coated steel gear webs.
Gary
I'm looking at the wing attach bolts and tried
test
> fitting them in the center section. They are really tight! I sprayed them
> with WD-40 and they go in but really need coaxing. Just pushing them in
with
> my fingers tends to remove some of the cadmium plating. I would appreciate
> any general information anyone would care to share with me.
>
> Dennis Thomas 90164
> 9-taildragger, tip up
> starting fuselage
---
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 12/17/02
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