---------------------------------------------------------- RV9-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/22/06: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:30 AM - IO360 (Ray D. Congdon) 2. 07:00 AM - Re: IO360 (Rhonda Bewley) 3. 07:15 AM - Re: IO360 (Michael Schipper) 4. 07:26 AM - Re: IO360 (Carlos Trigo) 5. 07:33 AM - Re: IO360 (Norman Younie) 6. 07:59 AM - Re: IO360 (LessDragProd@aol.com) 7. 07:59 AM - Re: IO360 (Doc Custer) 8. 09:33 AM - IO-360 (RScott) 9. 10:17 AM - Re: IO360 (Gerry Filby) 10. 10:28 AM - Re: IO360 (gbrasch@earthlink.net) 11. 11:06 AM - Re: IO360 (Folbrecht, Paul) 12. 11:18 AM - Re: IO360 (gbrasch@earthlink.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:26 AM PST US From: "Ray D. Congdon" Subject: RV9-List: IO360 I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start seriously considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of experiance (50 yrs+!) tells me that if at all possible, I should consider a 6 banger and he recomends the IO360 Continental. Anybody out there done this? Thought about it? Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. ISA-USA Inc. Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure Ray D. Congdon 5515 N 4400 W Cedar City, UT 84720 USA www.isa-usa-inc.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV9-List: IO360 From: "Rhonda Bewley" Ray: Here's some feedback we gave a -10 builder about the possible use of the Conti IO-360 in that airframe. Hope you find it helpful. Not saying don't do it, but just give you some things to consider in making your engine selection. The TCM IO-360 was originally developed for use in the Cessna Skymaster. TCM later modified the engine for use in several models of the Seneca. The engine runs smooth, but it tends to be a high maintenance engine. Cores are not readily available for o'h due to its limited use in the certified market, and it has lots and lots of parts so it's expensive to o'h (much less buy one new.) It is a bed mount (which most TCM engines are except for the 520/550 C models.) The engine also has a tendency to run hot, but that can be dealt with on an experimental. Rhonda Barrett-Bewley Barrett Precision Engines, Inc. 2870-B N. Sheridan Rd. Tulsa, OK 74115 (918) 835-1089 phone (918) 835-1754 fax www.barrettprecisionengines.com ________________________________ From: owner-rv9-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv9-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray D. Congdon Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 8:29 AM Subject: RV9-List: IO360 I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start seriously considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of experiance (50 yrs+!) tells me that if at all possible, I should consider a 6 banger and he recomends the IO360 Continental. Anybody out there done this? Thought about it? Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. ISA-USA Inc. Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure Ray D. Congdon 5515 N 4400 W Cedar City, UT 84720 USA www.isa-usa-inc.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:32 AM PST US From: Michael Schipper Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 Don't listen. Go with what Van's recommends. * The -9A doesn't need that much power * You are going to add a lot of build time trying to fit the bigger engine * You lose a lot of usable load * W&B will move forward, which will affect the flight characteristics, especially when flying alone with full fuel * The -9A doesn't need that much power Get a good 160hp Lycoming and if you need to get out of short fields or operate at altitude, put a C/S prop on it. Regards, Mike Schipper RV-9A - N63MS - 90+ hours www.my9a.com On Sep 22, 2006, at 8:29 AM, Ray D. Congdon wrote: > I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start seriously > considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of experiance (50 yrs+!) > tells me that if at all possible, I should consider a 6 banger and > he recomends the IO360 Continental. Anybody out there done this? > Thought about it? Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. > > > ISA-USA Inc. > Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure > Ray D. Congdon > 5515 N 4400 W > Cedar City, UT 84720 USA > www.isa-usa-inc.com > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:12 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 Do you consider an auto conversion? Do you know the Eggenfellner Subaru H-6 ? Carlos Trigo RV-9A EGG Subaru H-6 engine (just a customer, no commercial link) Still not flying ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray D. Congdon To: rv9-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:29 PM Subject: RV9-List: IO360 I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start seriously considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of experiance (50 yrs+!) tells me that if at all possible, I should consider a 6 banger and he recomends the IO360 Continental. Anybody out there done this? Thought about it? Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. ISA-USA Inc. Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure Ray D. Congdon 5515 N 4400 W Cedar City, UT 84720 USA www.isa-usa-inc.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:19 AM PST US From: Norman Younie Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 If you go to the io360 engine your CG will be to far forward. The engine is too heavy. Norman Ray D. Congdon wrote: > I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start seriously > considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of experiance (50 yrs+!) > tells me that if at all possible, I should consider a 6 banger and he > recomends the IO360 Continental. Anybody out there done this? > Thought about it? Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. > > > ISA-USA Inc. > Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure > Ray D. Congdon > 5515 N 4400 W > Cedar City, UT 84720 USA > www.isa-usa-inc.com > * > > > * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:07 AM PST US From: LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 Hi Ray, Stick with what Van's recommends for the engine. Lyc. 320. To smooth it out and optimize performance, use the constant speed 3 blade MT propeller. MT Propeller has a new blade design available for the Lyc. 320 engine. One of my customers was the first to try them out. We flew our planes to Oshkosh this year. I could just barely stay with him in a climb. His 150 hp RV-9A vs. my 180 hp RV-6A. There wasn't much difference in cruise speed, either. Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 09/22/2006 6:31:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, n7hqk@yahoo.com writes: I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start seriously considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of experiance (50 yrs+!) tells me that if at all possible, I should consider a 6 banger and he recomends the IO360 Continental. Anybody out there done this? Thought about it? Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. ISA-USA Inc. Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure Ray D. Congdon 5515 N 4400 W Cedar City, UT 84720 USA www.isa-usa-inc.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:11 AM PST US From: "Doc Custer" Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 You appear to be about where I am. I looked at all the options. I am going to go with a Mazda 13B rotary engine. Pros: 1. It has a history of robustness and resistance to catastrophic failure. NASA estimated that TBO would be 3000 hrs. Some vendors say 1500 hrs. No one really knows. One fellow flew his at reduced power (30 miles if memory serves) to a safe landing after loosing all the coolant (forgot to tighten a hose clamp - overhaul was ~$500). For me, this is the primary reason. 2. It's firewall forward weight is about the same as the Lycoming O320 that Van recommends. See attached chart (the chart includes the PSRU but I am not sure what else). 3. The p-port version has been dyno tested at 240 hp! 4. It is smoother than any 4 or 6 cylinder piston engine. No reciprocating parts. Much less vibration and shake. 5. It runs happily on 100LL, 87 octane mogas, and, with the proper fuel system gas with alcohol in it (Brazil requires 20% alcohol). Some builders, including Tracy Crook, use mogas almost exclusively. 6. Low cost. Initial cost will depend a lot on how much you use custom accessory parts. Bare reman engine is $2,000 to $3,000 depending on how many new parts are used. My local Mazda dealer quotes $2,000 plus $1,000 core charge (all parts are new or meet Mazda new specs). Overhaul is typically $500 for parts. If you can find a used engine you can overhaul it yourself. Cons: 1. It uses about 10% more fuel for a given power. But if you are willing to use mogas, currently more than $1 less expensive, the fuel cost is actually less. 2. You will have to educate yourself and make a lot of component choices. Lots of help on the net, you will not be alone. 3. The apex seals are lubed with 2 cycle oil. Either in the gas or by injection pump. I regard this as a nuisance. 4. It has a reputation for being exceptionally loud but that seems to be for the unmuffled version. I have heard audio clips that allow you to hear the wind noise through the canopy using a proper muffler. One builder says his is the quietest airplane at his airport. Not sure what that means exactly. Conclusion: the robustness is worth the extra effort and fuel. The power to weight is a bonus, particularly if you do mountain flying at altitudes over 14,000 feet as I do (my home airport is at 8,000 feet). Just don't exceed Vne. For more information start at: http://www.rotaryeng.net Doc Custer Retired software engineer and sometime Audiologist Building RV9-A. Fuselage ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray D. Congdon To: rv9-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 7:29 AM Subject: RV9-List: IO360 I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start seriously considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of experiance (50 yrs+!) tells me that if at all possible, I should consider a 6 banger and he recomends the IO360 Continental. Anybody out there done this? Thought about it? Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. ISA-USA Inc. Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure Ray D. Congdon 5515 N 4400 W Cedar City, UT 84720 USA www.isa-usa-inc.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:42 AM PST US From: RScott Subject: RV9-List: IO-360 Everything Mike Schipper says is right on. Go with an O-320. It has an excellent reputation for reliability, if something does go wrong, every A&P knows how to work on them & installation has all the support you need from Van's. Vibration? Go with a model that uses a dynafocal mount. Observation: Long time experience does not equate with good judgment. A person could have 50 years practice and gotten really good at doing it wrong. A retired IA making a few extra bucks doing annuals almost ruined my wood prop by wanting to way over torque the bolts. I caught him as he was setting the wrench. Also, see the RVator a couple issues back for info on the Subaru--it's not worth it. Van's did side by side testing of their Lyc powered plane with a Subie powered plane of the same model. Cost was almost the same as the Lycoming and performance was almost he same, but installation of the Subie takes lots longer. Re: The Mazda, you're going to take a lot more time to get in the air doing anything other than a Lyc. Regarding auto gas: You can go with a 150 hp O-320 & use mogas. Some seem to use premium mogas in 160's, but I would want to talk with Bart at Aerosport before deciding to do that. Remember, KISS? The Lyc. is the simplest installation. And if you ignore all these folks advice, please let us know how your installation and results work out! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 From: Gerry Filby --> RV9-List message posted by: Gerry Filby If you do go the O-320 route (or Lycoming 360), give some serious thought to going injected ... Bart at Aerosport will put together an IO-320 for you. There's lots of advantages to injection over a carb .... check out Dan C's project documentation at http://www.rvproject.com - his reasoning and general installation is very well documented. And a "been there, done that" comment - anything you do that diverts from the plans will cost you time - lottsa, lottsa time. If I look at my experience I would say 5-10 times as much time per custom item. g (N696WG - endless wrap up work - are we done yet ?) > I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start > seriously considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of > experiance (50 yrs+!) tells me that if at all possible, I > should consider a 6 banger and he recomends the IO360 > Continental. Anybody out there done this? Thought about it? > Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. > > > > > ISA-USA Inc. > Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure > Ray D. Congdon > 5515 N 4400 W > Cedar City, UT 84720 USA > www.isa-usa-inc.com -- __g__ ========================================================== Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:55 AM PST US From: gbrasch@earthlink.net Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 --> RV9-List message posted by: gbrasch@earthlink.net Folks may want to consider the new ECI 340 "Stroker" engine for the -9. I am, considering the high DA enviornment I live in, in Southern Arizona. The engine seems like a lot of bang for the buck. As a side note, a Van's engineer had previously told me there would be no harm in using a Lycoming 360 in a -9, providing limits were not exceeded, as the 360 only weighs about 8 lbs more that a 320. Glenn Brasch, Tucson, -9a finish kit. -----Original Message----- >From: Gerry Filby >Sent: Sep 22, 2006 10:16 AM >To: rv9-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 > >--> RV9-List message posted by: Gerry Filby > > >If you do go the O-320 route (or Lycoming 360), give some >serious thought to going injected ... Bart at Aerosport will >put together an IO-320 for you. There's lots of advantages to >injection over a carb .... check out Dan C's project >documentation at http://www.rvproject.com - his reasoning and >general installation is very well documented. > >And a "been there, done that" comment - anything you do that >diverts from the plans will cost you time - lottsa, lottsa >time. If I look at my experience I would say 5-10 times as much >time per custom item. > >g > >(N696WG - endless wrap up work - are we done yet ?) > >> I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start >> seriously considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of >> experiance (50 yrs+!) tells me that if at all possible, I >> should consider a 6 banger and he recomends the IO360 >> Continental. Anybody out there done this? Thought about it? >> Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. >> >> >> >> >> ISA-USA Inc. >> Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure >> Ray D. Congdon >> 5515 N 4400 W >> Cedar City, UT 84720 USA >> www.isa-usa-inc.com > >-- >__g__ > >========================================================== >Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com >---------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:59 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV9-List: IO360 From: "Folbrecht, Paul" --> RV9-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Surprising any Van's engineer told you that. The issue - this has come up many times on various forums - is vibration. A 360 vibrates more and there have been cases of -9 empennage cracks in a matter of a couple hundred hours. It's not a good idea. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv9-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv9-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gbrasch@earthlink.net Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:28 PM Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 --> RV9-List message posted by: gbrasch@earthlink.net Folks may want to consider the new ECI 340 "Stroker" engine for the -9. I am, considering the high DA enviornment I live in, in Southern Arizona. The engine seems like a lot of bang for the buck. As a side note, a Van's engineer had previously told me there would be no harm in using a Lycoming 360 in a -9, providing limits were not exceeded, as the 360 only weighs about 8 lbs more that a 320. Glenn Brasch, Tucson, -9a finish kit. -----Original Message----- >From: Gerry Filby >Sent: Sep 22, 2006 10:16 AM >To: rv9-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 > >--> RV9-List message posted by: Gerry Filby > > >If you do go the O-320 route (or Lycoming 360), give some >serious thought to going injected ... Bart at Aerosport will >put together an IO-320 for you. There's lots of advantages to >injection over a carb .... check out Dan C's project >documentation at http://www.rvproject.com - his reasoning and >general installation is very well documented. > >And a "been there, done that" comment - anything you do that >diverts from the plans will cost you time - lottsa, lottsa >time. If I look at my experience I would say 5-10 times as much >time per custom item. > >g > >(N696WG - endless wrap up work - are we done yet ?) > >> I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start >> seriously considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of >> experiance (50 yrs+!) tells me that if at all possible, I >> should consider a 6 banger and he recomends the IO360 >> Continental. Anybody out there done this? Thought about it? >> Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. >> >> >> >> >> ISA-USA Inc. >> Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure >> Ray D. Congdon >> 5515 N 4400 W >> Cedar City, UT 84720 USA >> www.isa-usa-inc.com > >-- >__g__ > >========================================================== >Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com >---------------------------------------------------------- > > This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the intended recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is strictly prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail messages, which may be produced at the request of regulators or in connection with litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to be secure, timely or error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not send confidential information to us via electronic mail. This communication is for informational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any investment product. Any information regarding specific investment products is subject to change without notice. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:49 AM PST US From: gbrasch@earthlink.net Subject: RE: RV9-List: IO360 --> RV9-List message posted by: gbrasch@earthlink.net You make a good point, but it's true, they did. But this is why I am now looking at the ECI 340, lighter, more power, and hopefully smoother than a 360. Glenn. -----Original Message----- >From: "Folbrecht, Paul" >Sent: Sep 22, 2006 11:05 AM >To: rv9-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV9-List: IO360 > >--> RV9-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > >Surprising any Van's engineer told you that. The issue - this has come >up many times on various forums - is vibration. A 360 vibrates more and >there have been cases of -9 empennage cracks in a matter of a couple >hundred hours. It's not a good idea. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv9-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv9-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >gbrasch@earthlink.net >Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:28 PM >To: rv9-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 > >--> RV9-List message posted by: gbrasch@earthlink.net > >Folks may want to consider the new ECI 340 "Stroker" engine for the -9. >I am, considering the high DA enviornment I live in, in Southern >Arizona. The engine seems like a lot of bang for the buck. As a side >note, a Van's engineer had previously told me there would be no harm in >using a Lycoming 360 in a -9, providing limits were not exceeded, as the >360 only weighs about 8 lbs more that a 320. Glenn Brasch, Tucson, -9a >finish kit. > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Gerry Filby >>Sent: Sep 22, 2006 10:16 AM >>To: rv9-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: RV9-List: IO360 >> >>--> RV9-List message posted by: Gerry Filby >> >> >>If you do go the O-320 route (or Lycoming 360), give some >>serious thought to going injected ... Bart at Aerosport will >>put together an IO-320 for you. There's lots of advantages to >>injection over a carb .... check out Dan C's project >>documentation at http://www.rvproject.com - his reasoning and >>general installation is very well documented. >> >>And a "been there, done that" comment - anything you do that >>diverts from the plans will cost you time - lottsa, lottsa >>time. If I look at my experience I would say 5-10 times as much >>time per custom item. >> >>g >> >>(N696WG - endless wrap up work - are we done yet ?) >> >>> I'm getting to the point on my RV-9A that I need to start >>> seriously considering an engine... My A&P with Lots of >>> experiance (50 yrs+!) tells me that if at all possible, I >>> should consider a 6 banger and he recomends the IO360 >>> Continental. Anybody out there done this? Thought about it? >>> Pros, Cons, etc. will be welcome. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ISA-USA Inc. >>> Industrial Strength Answers For Telecommunications Infrastructure >>> Ray D. Congdon >>> 5515 N 4400 W >>> Cedar City, UT 84720 USA >>> www.isa-usa-inc.com >> >>-- >>__g__ >> >>========================================================== >>Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com >>---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > >This transmission contains information for the exclusive use of the intended recipient and may be privileged, confidential and/or otherwise protected from disclosure. Any unauthorized review or distribution is strictly prohibited. Our company is required to retain electronic mail messages, which may be produced at the request of regulators or in connection with litigation. Electronic messages cannot be guaranteed to be secure, timely or error-free. As such, we recommend that you do not send confidential information to us via electronic mail. This communication is for informational purposes only and is not an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any investment product. Any information regarding specific investment products is subject to change without notice. If you received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system. > >