Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:28 AM - Re: radio work needed (WVSWIFT@aol.com)
2. 02:56 AM - Cold Front (Steve Glasgow)
3. 05:32 AM - Re: Cold Front (sportav8r@aol.com)
4. 06:05 AM - Re: radio work needed (Ed Anderson)
5. 06:10 AM - Re: Cold Front (Ed Anderson)
6. 06:20 AM - Re: Cold Front (sportav8r@aol.com)
7. 06:22 AM - Re: Working on experimentals (Ron and Shannon AWAD)
8. 06:24 AM - Re: Working on experimentals (Ron and Shannon AWAD)
9. 06:32 AM - Re: Sheetmetal, and radio work needed (Ron and Shannon AWAD)
10. 06:35 AM - Re: Sheetmetal, and radio work needed (Ron and Shannon AWAD)
11. 10:51 AM - Re: Working on experimentals (sportav8r@aol.com)
12. 10:56 AM - Re: Working on experimentals (sportav8r@aol.com)
13. 12:02 PM - Re: Working on experimentals (Charlie England)
14. 12:54 PM - Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 01/11/06 (lee.logan@gulfstream.com)
15. 01:43 PM - wx (sportav8r@aol.com)
16. 02:38 PM - Re: wx (Mike.Munn@fluor.com)
17. 04:12 PM - Re: wx (Steve Glasgow)
18. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 01/11/06 (bill crothers)
19. 04:22 PM - Re: Working on experimentals (Robbie Walker)
20. 05:53 PM - Re: wx (Lenleg@aol.com)
21. 06:55 PM - Re: Working on experimentals (sportav8r@aol.com)
22. 06:58 PM - Re: wx (sportav8r@aol.com)
23. 08:21 PM - Re: Working on experimentals (Ron and Shannon AWAD)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: radio work needed |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: WVSWIFT@aol.com
ED:
As I said before, anybody can work on an experimental. The radios are not
experimental that are used in ATC systems.But keep in mind, even if an antenna
of a transponder is removed, the entire certification of the transponder
system has to be recertified. Unfortunately that's the way the regs are stated.
Eddie
Message 2
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--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Good Morning,
Looks like Friday's AM departure will depend on how fast the Cold Front moves.
Is Stormy comming Friday or Saturday?
--------
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3216#3216
Message 3
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--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Stormy doesn't want to fly 9 hrs round trip for a one night stand, so my guess
would be Friday or no-go. Not that it's relevant to tomorrow, but as I write
this before work, it's low IFR here in the mountain valley...
-Stormy
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Glasgow <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:56:23 -0800
Subject: RVSouthEast-List: Cold Front
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Good Morning,
Looks like Friday's AM departure will depend on how fast the Cold Front moves.
Is Stormy comming Friday or Saturday?
--------
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3216#3216
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: radio work needed |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Ok, thanks for the clarification Eddie.
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: <WVSWIFT@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: radio work needed
> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: WVSWIFT@aol.com
>
> ED:
> As I said before, anybody can work on an experimental. The radios are not
> experimental that are used in ATC systems.But keep in mind, even if an
> antenna
> of a transponder is removed, the entire certification of the transponder
> system has to be recertified. Unfortunately that's the way the regs are
> stated.
> Eddie
>
>
>
Message 5
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--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Going to launch today, looks like good weather once the Fog blows off/lifts.
See you folks down at Lakeland, Cappy.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:56 AM
Subject: RVSouthEast-List: Cold Front
> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow"
> <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
>
> Good Morning,
>
> Looks like Friday's AM departure will depend on how fast the Cold Front
> moves. Is Stormy comming Friday or Saturday?
>
> --------
> Steve Glasgow-Cappy
> Cappy's Toy
> RV-8 N123SG
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3216#3216
>
>
>
Message 6
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--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Godspeed, Ed!
-Stormy
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:07:00 -0500
Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Cold Front
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Going to launch today, looks like good weather once the Fog blows off/lifts.
See you folks down at Lakeland, Cappy.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 5:56 AM
Subject: RVSouthEast-List: Cold Front
> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow"
> <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
>
> Good Morning,
>
> Looks like Friday's AM departure will depend on how fast the Cold Front
> moves. Is Stormy comming Friday or Saturday?
>
> --------
> Steve Glasgow-Cappy
> Cappy's Toy
> RV-8 N123SG
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3216#3216
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Working on experimentals |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD" <sawad13@msn.com>
Stormy I disagree
Ron Awad
>From: sportav8r@aol.com
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:33:17 -0500
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
>I think it depends on what is meant by "work on it." Sure, you can add
>oil, and air the tires, but you can't replace avionics or install an
>autopilot or build a cooling plenum without the required credentials.
>IIRC, without the repaiman cert or an A&P license, it's no different that
>what spam owners are allowed to do as "owner maintenance."
>
>My $.02
>
>-Stormy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:45:34 -0500
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD"
><sawad13@msn.com>
>
>Dale, that was what I had heard many times before.
>
>
>Ron Awad
>
>
> >From: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
> >To: <rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
> >Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:24:55 -0500
> >
> >--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing"
> ><densing@carolina.rr.com>
> >
> >You do not have to be the builder of the airplane to work on it. If you
> >sell
> >an airplane the new owner can work on it. The Condition Inspection can
>only
> >be done by the person holding the Repairman Certificate or an an A&P.
> >The Repairman Certificate gives you the privilege of doing the Condition
> >Inspection on only the designated airplane.
> >Dale Ensing
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Working on experimentals |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD" <sawad13@msn.com>
Yeah I was waiting for this to be settled before I dropped that bombshell on
them Robbie!
Ron Awad
>From: Robbie Walker <robbie@atlanticpkg.com>
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:17:39 -0500
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Robbie Walker
><robbie@atlanticpkg.com>
>
>Not only that, but you don't need a tailwheel, complex, or high-power
>endorsement to operate an experimental (as long as you aren't
>carrying any passengers)
>
>FAR 61.31(k)(2)(iii)(B)
>
>Robbie Walker
>______________________________
>That ideas should spread from one to another over the globe, for the
>moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his
>condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by
>nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space,
>without lessening their density at any point, and like the air in
>which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of
>confinement or exclusive appropriation.
>Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.
> -- Thomas Jefferson
>
>
>On Jan 11, 2006, at 2:13 PM, sportav8r@aol.com wrote:
>
> > --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
> >
> > Well, okay- guess I was wrong. I'll consider it settled when
> > Eddie Shields weighs in on it or someone provides a reference as to
> > "elsewhere."
> >
> > If that's how it really is, it seems like disaster waiting to happen.
> >
> > -Stormy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robbie Walker <robbie@atlanticpkg.com>
> > To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
> > Sent: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:58:32 -0500
> > Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
> >
> >
> > --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Robbie Walker
> > <robbie@atlanticpkg.com>
> >
> > Nope. This has been covered ad nauseum elsewhere. Those rules only
> > apply to certificated aircraft. ANYONE can work on an experimental,
> > whether they're the builder or not; even rebuild the wing!
> >
> > Only the annual condition inspection must be done by an A&P or the
> > original builder with a Repairman's Certificate. If the original
> > builder is not issued a repairman's certificate for some reason, he
> > can't do the inspection either.
> >
> > Whether it's WISE for ANYONE to work on the plane is another matter.
> >
> > Robbie Walker
> > Arr-Vee-Wanna-Bee
> > ______________________________
> > A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will
> > lose both, and deserve neither.
> > -- Thomas Jefferson
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 11, 2006, at 1:33 PM, sportav8r@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
> >>
> >> I think it depends on what is meant by "work on it." Sure, you can
> >> add oil, and air the tires, but you can't replace avionics or
> >> install an autopilot or build a cooling plenum without the required
> >> credentials. IIRC, without the repaiman cert or an A&P license,
> >> it's no different that what spam owners are allowed to do as "owner
> >> maintenance."
> >>
> >> My $.02
> >>
> >> -Stormy
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
> >> To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
> >> Sent: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:45:34 -0500
> >> Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
> >>
> >>
> >> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD"
> >> <sawad13@msn.com>
> >>
> >> Dale, that was what I had heard many times before.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ron Awad
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
> >>> To: <rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
> >>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:24:55 -0500
> >>>
> >>> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing"
> >>> <densing@carolina.rr.com>
> >>>
> >>> You do not have to be the builder of the airplane to work on it.
> >>> If you
> >>> sell
> >>> an airplane the new owner can work on it. The Condition Inspection
> >>> can only
> >>> be done by the person holding the Repairman Certificate or an an
> >>> A&P.
> >>> The Repairman Certificate gives you the privilege of doing the
> >>> Condition
> >>> Inspection on only the designated airplane.
> >>> Dale Ensing
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Sheetmetal, and radio work needed |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD" <sawad13@msn.com>
Thanks Eddie. That makes it pretty darn clear!!!
I will try to come by your place at York this weekend
Ron Awad
>From: WVSWIFT@aol.com
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Sheetmetal, and radio work needed
>Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:47:37 EST
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: WVSWIFT@aol.com
>
>Ron:
>The answer to your question about who can work on an experimental, anyone
>can>>>>>with exception to the condition inspection that is required each
>year.
>FAR Part 43 does not apply to an experimental home built. (with one
>exception)
>The operating limitations , which is a part of the Special Airworthiness
>Certificate, (should be attached to it) outlines how and when the required
>inspection is to be accomplished and by whom and how the inspection is
>signed off.
>Both should be in the aircraft at all times with the registration card.
>I have recently seen an experimental aircraft logbook that was signed by
>the
>words "annual , no issues". Well, that does NOT meet the rule in the
>operating limitations issued to an experimental. These "annuals" were from
>1993,
>(there is no annual for an experimental, only a condition inspection every
>year.) No legal inspection during all those years! Nobody knows who did
>it.SO, it
>was not a legal sign off for 12 years. Bet an insurance company would love
>to
>see the operating limitations not adhered to, SO NO PAYOFF!
>The limitations will state what shall be written after the inspection has
>been completed and who can conduct a condition inspection.
>A big misconception I see a lot is the operating limitations state how and
>what must be inspected every year. That is FAR 43 appendix D.. This is the
>only
> time FAR Part 43 applies to an experimental. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND everybody
>review their respective operating limitations to see what is in there
>along
>with FAR Part 43 appendix D. You might not be able to fly and conduct
>aerobatics
> without the proper signoff in accordance with the statement in the
>operating
> limitations. Best read it.
>
>Also, read FAR Part 91.413 for the use of the ATC transponder(VFR). It
>doesn't state experimentals are exempt. All transponders that are used in
>airspace
>must also be inspected every 24 calendar months. Please keep in mind, FAR
>Part 91.411 must also be complied with on all aircraft being used in IFR
>conditions.
>
>Contact Jerry Boyce at Rock Hill about your cowl, he just finished his RV8
>cowl.
>He has a hanger facing the runway across the runway from the FBO. He also
>might be able to help in the sheetmetal work for your friend. Also there
>are
>others there that may help.
>
>Please keep in mind about radio repair, only certified avionics shops can
>return a TSO'd unit to service within tolerances that are now required.
>Gary Wilson is NOT a certified repairman or shop. He cannot certify any
>transponders or systems in an aircraft.
>If you or any others need more info on this please give me a call at work
>or
>email me at work. You know where I am.
>Hope this helps
>Eddie
>_Edwin.G.Shields@FAA.GOV_ (mailto:Edwin.G.Shields@FAA.GOV) (don't forget
>the dots between the name)
>PS: Come on down for a visit at our strip in York, we always have drinks in
>the fridge. May be gone this Saturday picking up another project but will
>be
>home Sunday and Monday. Debbie and me are working very hard now on my
>Swift.
>We do have a complete sheetmetal shop here too.
>
>
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Sheetmetal, and radio work needed |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD" <sawad13@msn.com>
Thanks Eddie.
Ron Awad
>From: WVSWIFT@aol.com
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Sheetmetal, and radio work needed
>Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:52:26 EST
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: WVSWIFT@aol.com
>
>PS:
>On the major repair or alteration question, you can do it, just takes an
>A&P
>or the repairman for that aircraft to sign off a condition inspection
>every
>year.
>The only thing to remember on major alterations are you will need to check
>the operating limitations on what to do when that is done. The newer
>operating
>limitations now allow you to put the aircraft into a test period yourself
>and
> then sign off the flight test yourself. The old operating limitations
>required you to contact the FAA Flight Standards District Office prior to
>flying
>the aircraft and they will put a test period and area restriction on the
>aircraft. This change only happened about a year or so ago.
>Eddie
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Working on experimentals |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Very pithy, Ron ;-)
After reading the preceeding comments from this morning, I am inclined to disagree
with myself, too. I take back all that I said, and admit that I was laboring
under a misconception. My $.02 was worth $0.00!
I am still not comfortable with any ol' yahoo being able to wrench on an experimental
plane, then carry passengers in said plane, and have no one check his
work until annual condition inspection time, at which point he might just take
his airframe logbook and checkbook to a restaurant for what we call around here
a "New London Special" (Eddie S. will know what I mean). In that case, his
workmanship is not only uninformed by any familiarity with the plane during construction,
but is never inspected by anyone, period (until the NTSB shows up).
One thing I did learn from all this is that I should get my op lims out of that
moldy envelope in the glove box and read whether I should have called the FSDO
about those autopilots last year and the new panel going in. I may need to
apply for new op lims; do I recall a discussion of this awhile back, with the
EAA offering to help (something to do with congested area overflights)? Fill
me in...
Best,
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:22:00 -0500
Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD" <sawad13@msn.com>
Stormy I disagree
Ron Awad
>From: sportav8r@aol.com
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:33:17 -0500
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
>I think it depends on what is meant by "work on it." Sure, you can add
>oil, and air the tires, but you can't replace avionics or install an
>autopilot or build a cooling plenum without the required credentials.
>IIRC, without the repaiman cert or an A&P license, it's no different that
>what spam owners are allowed to do as "owner maintenance."
>
>My $.02
>
>-Stormy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:45:34 -0500
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD"
><sawad13@msn.com>
>
>Dale, that was what I had heard many times before.
>
>
>Ron Awad
>
>
> >From: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
> >To: <rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
> >Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:24:55 -0500
> >
> >--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing"
> ><densing@carolina.rr.com>
> >
> >You do not have to be the builder of the airplane to work on it. If you
> >sell
> >an airplane the new owner can work on it. The Condition Inspection can
>only
> >be done by the person holding the Repairman Certificate or an an A&P.
> >The Repairman Certificate gives you the privilege of doing the Condition
> >Inspection on only the designated airplane.
> >Dale Ensing
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Working on experimentals |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Let me add that I'd be okay with all this if an A&P sign-off was required before
returning the plane to service, vs. once a year, but that is obviously not the
case. Apparently a Repairman Cert is not especially useful or distinguishing
to its holder more than once per annum. I wonder if that was the original
intent.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:22:00 -0500
Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD" <sawad13@msn.com>
Stormy I disagree
Ron Awad
>From: sportav8r@aol.com
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:33:17 -0500
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
>I think it depends on what is meant by "work on it." Sure, you can add
>oil, and air the tires, but you can't replace avionics or install an
>autopilot or build a cooling plenum without the required credentials.
>IIRC, without the repaiman cert or an A&P license, it's no different that
>what spam owners are allowed to do as "owner maintenance."
>
>My $.02
>
>-Stormy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:45:34 -0500
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD"
><sawad13@msn.com>
>
>Dale, that was what I had heard many times before.
>
>
>Ron Awad
>
>
> >From: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
> >To: <rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
> >Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:24:55 -0500
> >
> >--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing"
> ><densing@carolina.rr.com>
> >
> >You do not have to be the builder of the airplane to work on it. If you
> >sell
> >an airplane the new owner can work on it. The Condition Inspection can
>only
> >be done by the person holding the Repairman Certificate or an an A&P.
> >The Repairman Certificate gives you the privilege of doing the Condition
> >Inspection on only the designated airplane.
> >Dale Ensing
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Working on experimentals |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
sportav8r@aol.com wrote:
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
>Very pithy, Ron ;-)
>
>After reading the preceeding comments from this morning, I am inclined to disagree
with myself, too. I take back all that I said, and admit that I was laboring
under a misconception. My $.02 was worth $0.00!
>
>I am still not comfortable with any ol' yahoo being able to wrench on an experimental
plane, then carry passengers in said plane, and have no one check his
work until annual condition inspection time, at which point he might just take
his airframe logbook and checkbook to a restaurant for what we call around here
a "New London Special" (Eddie S. will know what I mean). In that case, his
workmanship is not only uninformed by any familiarity with the plane during
construction, but is never inspected by anyone, period (until the NTSB shows up).
>
>One thing I did learn from all this is that I should get my op lims out of that
moldy envelope in the glove box and read whether I should have called the FSDO
about those autopilots last year and the new panel going in. I may need to
apply for new op lims; do I recall a discussion of this awhile back, with the
EAA offering to help (something to do with congested area overflights)? Fill
me in...
>
>Best,
>
>-Stormy
>
I've 'upgraded' oplims on 2 different -4's that I didn't build. The 1st
was over 5 years ago, when the new rules came out allowing you to sign
off major alterations yourself. At that time, once you had the new
wording in hand (including a defined test area) you could make any major
change, make a log entry re-entering phase 1, fly 5 hours doing all
required tests (Ha...) and make another log entry returning the plane to
phase 2.
The 2nd was a couple of years ago, post 911 & the new wording is similar
but with a major difference: you must contact the FAA & get confirmation
that your defined test area is still acceptable. I was a bit ticked
about this change & asked 'Das Fed' on the RV-list about it & he said
that it was a nation-wide mandated change. Obviously, it's still a lot
better than the old oplims where there had to be a complete reissuance
of your paperwork any time there's a major change. If you haven't
changed an old oplim to reflect the self-sign-off features, you are
still obligated to go through all the old monkey motion. Odds are, most
FAA offices will issue the new oplims the 1st time you notify them of a
major mod just to cut down on their headaches in the future.
Anything that's not a minor mod (spelled out somewhere in the FAR's) is
a major mod. I would never point out that on an experimental a/c with no
log entries or photographic evidence proving it's original
configuration, changes are for all practical purposes undetectable.
Unless, of course, you log the update or it's something like a Trutrak
that wasn't available when the plane was 1st signed off. Props *don't*
fit this description because they almost always appear somewhere in the
paperwork. That's probably the easiest way for insurance companies to
not pay, since many, many owners neglect to notify the FAA when they
change props.
At the risk of sounding like a Libertarian, I feel the need to point out
that virtually all regulations, including FAA regulations, exist to
enable taxation or limit competition, rather than promote safety. Even
though I didn't build any of the experimentals I've owned, I'm confident
that I'm at least as qualified to inspect them as a typical a&p or ia,
because they've never touched an experimental. The same is true for less
common factory planes like the Swift. Most Swift owners know more about
their planes than the ia's that are available in their area, because the
ia's have never touched one. When I was 1/2 owner of a Swift, our ia
basically "P51'd" (Parker once made a pen with that identifier) any work
we did. If I bought Ed Anderson's RV-6A with a Mazda engine, which ia
should I call to maintain & inspect it?
I think my fever is breaking now, so maybe it's time to stop my rant. :-)
Have fun in Lakeland.
Charlie
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 01/11/06 |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: lee.logan@gulfstream.com
Ooooops! Maybe I let my alligator mouth overload my hummingbird
empennage!! I do have a -4. I was not aware the tail wheel on an -8 was
different from the one on the world renowned Recreational Vehicle.4!!! I
like the looks of the design though and was thinking I'd like one for my
(soon to arrive in kit form), F1 Rocket as well. If it will fit my RV.4
also, I'd like to try it out. I don't particularly like the stock
tailwheel I have now (it keeps making bad landings for some reason).
Regards,
Lee...
Message 15
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--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
I just checked TAF's enroute KHSP -> KLAL on Dan Chekoway's wx engine; what does
"LIFR" mean? It sure pops up alot in the route description for tomorrow.
I think it means "Stormy's not going to bother packing tonight, but I'll check
back in the morning in case a miracle occurred." ;-)
Oh, well, sometimes the cookies crumble.
Staying tuned,
-Stormy
Message 16
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--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Mike.Munn@fluor.com
"what does "LIFR" mean?"
LIFR is 500 ft or less ceiling and less than 1 mile vis.
Mike
The information transmitted is intended only for the person
or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary,
business-confidential and/or privileged material.
If you are not the intended recipient of this message you
are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission,
dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken
in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received
this in error, please contact the sender and delete the
material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message
are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect
the views of the company.
Message 17
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--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Cappy is going to sleep on the WX till morning. Looks like maybe 9 AM but is a
bit iffy. Catch you guys online in the morning.
--------
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3441#3441
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 29 Msgs - 01/11/06 |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: bill crothers <bill28104@yahoo.com>
you coming to LAL? hope to seeya, bill
--- lee.logan@gulfstream.com wrote:
> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by:
> lee.logan@gulfstream.com
>
> Ooooops! Maybe I let my alligator mouth overload my
> hummingbird
> empennage!! I do have a -4. I was not aware the
> tail wheel on an -8 was
> different from the one on the world renowned
> Recreational Vehicle.4!!! I
> like the looks of the design though and was thinking
> I'd like one for my
> (soon to arrive in kit form), F1 Rocket as well. If
> it will fit my RV.4
> also, I'd like to try it out. I don't particularly
> like the stock
> tailwheel I have now (it keeps making bad landings
> for some reason).
>
> Regards,
>
> Lee...
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RVSouthEast-List
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Working on experimentals |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Robbie Walker <robbie@atlanticpkg.com>
Guys I certainly wasn't trying to start anything. When I "were
learnin'" about homebuilding I noticed this particular aspect of the
maintenance rules and it stuck with me. Certainly interesting stuff.
Stormy (who I don't think I've ever met...), I agree with you in
principle. One of the other lists I follow is the Quad-City
Challenger list. At one time I was considering that plane as a
"starter homebuilt". One of the more tragic stories related on that
list was of a dentist and his wife. Apparently this couple was as
nice & decent as you'd ever meet. The dentist was a very good stick
too. In an effort to increase the travel of his elevator he moved the
pivot attach to the other side of the elevator. With no mechanical
stop in the design, his modification allowed him (and his wife) to
take off, but they didn't survive the crash. The elevator "flipped"
over.
It seems pointless to discuss the merits of the idea after their
tragic death, but the lesson from this mistake is obvious.
NB: I've probably got the details of the story wrong, but the gist is
accurate and sobering.
Robbie Walker
______________________________
I can speak French but I cannot understand it.
-- Mark Twain
On Jan 12, 2006, at 1:55 PM, sportav8r@aol.com wrote:
> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
> Let me add that I'd be okay with all this if an A&P sign-off was
> required before returning the plane to service, vs. once a year,
> but that is obviously not the case. Apparently a Repairman Cert is
> not especially useful or distinguishing to its holder more than
> once per annum. I wonder if that was the original intent.
>
> -Stormy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
> To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:22:00 -0500
> Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>
>
> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD"
> <sawad13@msn.com>
>
>
> Stormy I disagree
>
>
> Ron Awad
>
>
>> From: sportav8r@aol.com
>> To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:33:17 -0500
>>
>> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>>
>> I think it depends on what is meant by "work on it." Sure, you
>> can add
>> oil, and air the tires, but you can't replace avionics or install an
>> autopilot or build a cooling plenum without the required credentials.
>> IIRC, without the repaiman cert or an A&P license, it's no
>> different that
>> what spam owners are allowed to do as "owner maintenance."
>>
>> My $.02
>>
>> -Stormy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
>> To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:45:34 -0500
>> Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>>
>>
>> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD"
>> <sawad13@msn.com>
>>
>> Dale, that was what I had heard many times before.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ron Awad
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>>> To: <rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:24:55 -0500
>>>
>>> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing"
>>> <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>>>
>>> You do not have to be the builder of the airplane to work on it.
>>> If you
>>> sell
>>> an airplane the new owner can work on it. The Condition
>>> Inspection can
>> only
>>> be done by the person holding the Repairman Certificate or an an
>>> A&P.
>>> The Repairman Certificate gives you the privilege of doing the
>>> Condition
>>> Inspection on only the designated airplane.
>>> Dale Ensing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 20
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--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com
Mike .. you are going to have to meet Stormy to learn that "personality" of
his ... believe me with a handle like "Stormy" ... he knows what it means ...
Len
In a message dated 1/12/2006 8:22:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Mike.Munn@fluor.com writes:
"what does "LIFR" mean?"
LIFR is 500 ft or less ceiling and less than 1 mile vis.
Mike
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Working on experimentals |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Au contraire, Robbie; I have a Green Sea Fly-In certificate from you.
We've met; the pleasure was apparently all mine ;-)
Stormy / N30YD
-----Original Message-----
From: Robbie Walker <robbie@atlanticpkg.com>
Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:22:18 -0500
Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Robbie Walker <robbie@atlanticpkg.com>
Guys I certainly wasn't trying to start anything. When I "were
learnin'" about homebuilding I noticed this particular aspect of the
maintenance rules and it stuck with me. Certainly interesting stuff.
Stormy (who I don't think I've ever met...), I agree with you in
principle. One of the other lists I follow is the Quad-City
Challenger list. At one time I was considering that plane as a
"starter homebuilt". One of the more tragic stories related on that
list was of a dentist and his wife. Apparently this couple was as
nice & decent as you'd ever meet. The dentist was a very good stick
too. In an effort to increase the travel of his elevator he moved the
pivot attach to the other side of the elevator. With no mechanical
stop in the design, his modification allowed him (and his wife) to
take off, but they didn't survive the crash. The elevator "flipped"
over.
It seems pointless to discuss the merits of the idea after their
tragic death, but the lesson from this mistake is obvious.
NB: I've probably got the details of the story wrong, but the gist is
accurate and sobering.
Robbie Walker
______________________________
I can speak French but I cannot understand it.
-- Mark Twain
On Jan 12, 2006, at 1:55 PM, sportav8r@aol.com wrote:
> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
> Let me add that I'd be okay with all this if an A&P sign-off was
> required before returning the plane to service, vs. once a year,
> but that is obviously not the case. Apparently a Repairman Cert is
> not especially useful or distinguishing to its holder more than
> once per annum. I wonder if that was the original intent.
>
> -Stormy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
> To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:22:00 -0500
> Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>
>
> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD"
> <sawad13@msn.com>
>
>
> Stormy I disagree
>
>
> Ron Awad
>
>
>> From: sportav8r@aol.com
>> To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:33:17 -0500
>>
>> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>>
>> I think it depends on what is meant by "work on it." Sure, you
>> can add
>> oil, and air the tires, but you can't replace avionics or install an
>> autopilot or build a cooling plenum without the required credentials.
>> IIRC, without the repaiman cert or an A&P license, it's no
>> different that
>> what spam owners are allowed to do as "owner maintenance."
>>
>> My $.02
>>
>> -Stormy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
>> To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:45:34 -0500
>> Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>>
>>
>> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD"
>> <sawad13@msn.com>
>>
>> Dale, that was what I had heard many times before.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ron Awad
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>>> To: <rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:24:55 -0500
>>>
>>> --> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing"
>>> <densing@carolina.rr.com>
>>>
>>> You do not have to be the builder of the airplane to work on it.
>>> If you
>>> sell
>>> an airplane the new owner can work on it. The Condition
>>> Inspection can
>> only
>>> be done by the person holding the Repairman Certificate or an an
>>> A&P.
>>> The Repairman Certificate gives you the privilege of doing the
>>> Condition
>>> Inspection on only the designated airplane.
>>> Dale Ensing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 22
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--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Thanks, Mike. It was a rhetorical question. You're sweet to explain it, though
;-)
Like Cappy, I'm sleeping on the wx, but I'm considering myself "out" for now.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike.Munn@fluor.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:37:33 -0500
Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: wx
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: Mike.Munn@fluor.com
"what does "LIFR" mean?"
LIFR is 500 ft or less ceiling and less than 1 mile vis.
Mike
The information transmitted is intended only for the person
or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary,
business-confidential and/or privileged material.
If you are not the intended recipient of this message you
are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission,
dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken
in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received
this in error, please contact the sender and delete the
material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message
are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect
the views of the company.
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Working on experimentals |
--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD" <sawad13@msn.com>
Stormy, if you think about..... On our RV airplanes, they are not really all
that experimental. Other than a few like Ed Anderson who are "experimenting"
with auto engines, and some who try different cowl mods etc...
Our RV's are pretty much per plans and Most people - be it the pilot, the
owner, the mechanics, the passengers - they all can expect a certain
something of the plane. This is probably one reason insurance for a RV is
not too expensive.
But what if you or I decided to make our own plane from scratch. What if we
decided to power it with 4 Briggs lawnmower engines linked to turn one prop,
and we decided to make it a TriWing, and maybe we want to do some other
weird stuff like put both a nose wheel and a tailwheel and make the plane
able to use either depending on field and wind conditions. Maybe we decide
to make the plane out of molded plastic or half aluminum and half wood....
I could go on and on, but my point is that on " our " homemade plane there
is nothing that is a given about it and nothing about it is "certain" other
than we made it ourselves.
The beauty of Amauter build Experimental rules we have here in the USA is
that we could build a kit from Vans and have pretty much as good of a
airplane as any Cessna and have the flexibilty to do our own maintance and
annuals, plus do modifications as we see fit..... but we also have it good
in that we can truely experiment, even if it is not what you or I or the
engineers at Cessna thinks is safe.
As for passengers.... this is the reason for the words WARNING EXPERIMENTAL
in bold letters to be in plain view. This is a warning and any passenger-
and really any pilot- should take very seriously. I mean who in the world
would go to some fair or theme park and hop on a roller coaster someone
designed on a paper towel and had the words WARNING HOME BUILT EXPERIMENTAL
ROLLER COASTER ?????????? Not me!!!
Now up until a year or so ago the rules about flying a experimental were
even very loose. By this I mean that say that the rules were, any person
holding ANY pilot certificate rating higher than Glider - it could be
Rotorcraft, or Fixed Wing - could fly any type of Experimental..... AND
carry passengers, all without specific type requirements. Example, A person
with Airplane private pilot certificate Single engine land could legally go
out and buy or build a experimental Helicopter and fly it legally by himself
or with a passenger and legally he would not have to have any helicopter
endorsements, additional ratings, or even the first hour of helicopter
instruction.
Why would the rules allow for such madness???
It goes back to the intent of the whole class of being experimental. And it
makes it easy to experiment......
For example, what if you took your typical RV-6 airframe. To fly it as a
Certified plane you would need SEL airplane. If has a tailwheel so you would
also need a tailwheel endorsement. Then you "experiment" and add floats to
land it on the lake, so now you need a seaplane endorsement too. Later you
decide to boost the engines power to 230 hp so now you need a Hi performance
endorsement. After a year or two your bored so you come up with a plan to
add a pylon and you install a set of rotorblades above the thing so once you
takeoff you can fly it as a autogyro, this way you will never have to worry
about stalling while your flying slow over the lake. So now you need a
Rotorcraft / Gyroplane add-on to your certificate. Later you decide if you
power the rotors you could hover and this would allow you to land it and
takeoff from the small pond behind your house, so now you need to go and get
your helicopter add-on as well.................... Now is this a likely
thing, A RV-6 turned into a helicopter on floats? Probably never, but the
beauty of our laws is we got the freedom to do that, and the additional
freedom to do it without having to become over burdened with rules and regs
and so on to do it.
The laws are always changing and one day I would not be surprised to see
these freedoms taken away.
Already the laws have changed as far as carrying passengers go. If you want
to carry a passenger in a experimental aircraft today, you need the most
approriate rating for the type of aircraft it is. So if it is a Rotorway
Exec helicopter you will need a Private Pilot rating Rotorcraft/helicopter.
If it is a Vans RV-4 like mine, you will need a PP SEL with tailwheel
endorsement. YOU can still fly ANY experimental with ANY rating - airplane
pilot flying a helicopter for example - but only solo, no passengers without
specific type rating.
Ron Awad
>From: sportav8r@aol.com
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:51:16 -0500
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
>Very pithy, Ron ;-)
>
>After reading the preceeding comments from this morning, I am inclined to
>disagree with myself, too. I take back all that I said, and admit that I
>was laboring under a misconception. My $.02 was worth $0.00!
>
>I am still not comfortable with any ol' yahoo being able to wrench on an
>experimental plane, then carry passengers in said plane, and have no one
>check his work until annual condition inspection time, at which point he
>might just take his airframe logbook and checkbook to a restaurant for what
>we call around here a "New London Special" (Eddie S. will know what I
>mean). In that case, his workmanship is not only uninformed by any
>familiarity with the plane during construction, but is never inspected by
>anyone, period (until the NTSB shows up).
>
>One thing I did learn from all this is that I should get my op lims out of
>that moldy envelope in the glove box and read whether I should have called
>the FSDO about those autopilots last year and the new panel going in. I
>may need to apply for new op lims; do I recall a discussion of this awhile
>back, with the EAA offering to help (something to do with congested area
>overflights)? Fill me in...
>
>Best,
>
>-Stormy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
>To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
>Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:22:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
>
>
>--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD"
><sawad13@msn.com>
>
>
>Stormy I disagree
>
>
>Ron Awad
>
>
> >From: sportav8r@aol.com
> >To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
> >Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:33:17 -0500
> >
> >--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
> >
> >I think it depends on what is meant by "work on it." Sure, you can add
> >oil, and air the tires, but you can't replace avionics or install an
> >autopilot or build a cooling plenum without the required credentials.
> >IIRC, without the repaiman cert or an A&P license, it's no different that
> >what spam owners are allowed to do as "owner maintenance."
> >
> >My $.02
> >
> >-Stormy
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Ron and Shannon AWAD <sawad13@msn.com>
> >To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
> >Sent: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:45:34 -0500
> >Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
> >
> >
> >--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Ron and Shannon AWAD"
> ><sawad13@msn.com>
> >
> >Dale, that was what I had heard many times before.
> >
> >
> >
> >Ron Awad
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
> > >To: <rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com>
> > >Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Working on experimentals
> > >Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:24:55 -0500
> > >
> > >--> RVSouthEast-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing"
> > ><densing@carolina.rr.com>
> > >
> > >You do not have to be the builder of the airplane to work on it. If you
> > >sell
> > >an airplane the new owner can work on it. The Condition Inspection can
> >only
> > >be done by the person holding the Repairman Certificate or an an A&P.
> > >The Repairman Certificate gives you the privilege of doing the
>Condition
> > >Inspection on only the designated airplane.
> > >Dale Ensing
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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