---------------------------------------------------------- RVSouthEast-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/13/07: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:07 AM - Re: Insurance Advice [was Re: Boeing Crosswind Movie] (Dwight Frye) 2. 06:36 AM - Re: Insurance Advice [was Re: Boeing Crosswind Movie] (Dale Ensing) 3. 08:24 AM - Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 09/12/07 (lee.logan@gulfstream.com) 4. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 09/12/07 (bill crothers) 5. 09:03 AM - Re: Insurance Advice [was Re: Boeing Crosswind Movie] (bill crothers) 6. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 09/12/07 (Randy Pinkston) 7. 11:58 AM - Re: Tail Wheel Discussion (again) (Robin Marks) 8. 06:39 PM - Re: Boeing Crosswind Testing Movie (text in Portuguese?) (Bill Repucci) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:33 AM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Insurance Advice [was re: Boeing Crosswind Movie] On Wed Sep 12 18:38:57 2007, Larry Bowen wrote : >Getting 5 hours of TW instruction will help you decide either way. I have >no regrets with my TW. Then again .. you can do the crazy thing I did. I partnered with a couple of friends on a 1967 Citabria 7ECA. That ends up being a pretty cheap way to own an airplane (if you have -good- partners, which I do so far). I'm now at the 30-hour mark on tailwheel time, and am having a ball. Yes, it has slowed my building while I did transition training and got some of the various insurance requirements behind me. But boy it sure feels good. :) Regarding insurance (this is NOT an RV, so is not intended to be any sort of direct comparision) we were shocked. Between the three of us only one had any significant TW time. One of my partners had only just over 100 hours total time, and had not flown in 18 years. SkySmith got us a quote for just under $1100/year. Split three ways, that ends up being pretty darned cheap. In airplane-dollars, at least. I hope to have a non-trivial amount of TW time when I have to finally get insurance on the RV-7. I _hope_ it'll reduce my insurance costs, but the best "insurance" will be the experience itself (or so I firmly believe). BTW, the guy who had not flown in 18 years is now close to 30 hours of tailwheel time too ... and is doing great. Having a blast. :) -- Dwight ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:32 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Insurance Advice [was re: Boeing Crosswind Movie] Had similar experience to Dwight's with three way partnership in a Cessna 170A while building the RV-6A. My total time in TW is still more than I have in tricycle gear. However, one of the influencing factors in deciding on an RV 'A' model.was, when flying cross country with the 170A, I found myself picking airports based on wind direction . Have landed in cross wind conditions with the 6A that I would never have tried with the TW 170A. Maybe the TW RV's are more mangeable in cross winds than the 170? Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight Frye" Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:11 AM Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Insurance Advice [was re: Boeing Crosswind Movie] > > On Wed Sep 12 18:38:57 2007, Larry Bowen wrote : >>Getting 5 hours of TW instruction will help you decide either way. I have >>no regrets with my TW. > > Then again .. you can do the crazy thing I did. I partnered with a > couple of friends on a 1967 Citabria 7ECA. > so far). I'm now at the 30-hour mark on tailwheel time, and am having > a ball. > >> -- Dwight > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:51 AM PST US Subject: RVSouthEast-List: Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 09/12/07 From: lee.logan@gulfstream.com Seems to me the best data to help someone with this decision is not who backs tail wheels (mostly that would be guys who already decided in favor of them) or who backs nose wheels (ditto) but to ask who would change if they had it to do all over again. My take is that guys who haven't flown tail wheeled aircraft have a somewhat unfounded concern about how difficult they are to fly. Personally, I see them as different, not difficult (are nose gear airplanes marginally easier to take off and land----probably, but not enough to make much of a difference at this size and speed aircraft). If there are those out there who are now flying tailwheeled RV's who would go with a nose wheel next time, that could be useful data (and vice versa, of course). Off the top of my head, I would guess that there are more nose gear guys who, having flown RV's for awhile now, are sorry they didn't go ahead with a tail wheel after all than there are tail wheel guys rueing their decision. I'll vote first. Tail wheel all the way and would not change. My first was a tail wheel and now I'm building another. Hope that helps! Great fun to think about again, regardless of your final decision. I would personally not let a concern for the challenge of flying a tail wheeled RV (there isn't much of one to begin with) deny me the aesthetics of a tail wheeled aircraft (if that in fact appeals to you), its (modest) performance benefits, nor for that matter the just plain fun of a wheel landing and carrying the tail up half way down the runway! Sorry for the rant---sometimes you just feel like chiming in, you know?? Lee... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:33 AM PST US From: bill crothers Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 09/12/07 Ditto Lee, wouldn't go back to nosewheel from TW --- lee.logan@gulfstream.com wrote: > lee.logan@gulfstream.com > > Seems to me the best data to help someone with this > decision is not who > backs tail wheels (mostly that would be guys who > already decided in favor > of them) or who backs nose wheels (ditto) but to ask > who would change if > they had it to do all over again. My take is that > guys who haven't flown > tail wheeled aircraft have a somewhat unfounded > concern about how difficult > they are to fly. Personally, I see them as > different, not difficult (are > nose gear airplanes marginally easier to take off > and land----probably, but > not enough to make much of a difference at this size > and speed aircraft). > > If there are those out there who are now flying > tailwheeled RV's who would > go with a nose wheel next time, that could be useful > data (and vice versa, > of course). Off the top of my head, I would guess > that there are more > nose gear guys who, having flown RV's for awhile > now, are sorry they didn't > go ahead with a tail wheel after all than there are > tail wheel guys rueing > their decision. > > I'll vote first. Tail wheel all the way and would > not change. My first > was a tail wheel and now I'm building another. Hope > that helps! > > Great fun to think about again, regardless of your > final decision. I would > personally not let a concern for the challenge of > flying a tail wheeled RV > (there isn't much of one to begin with) deny me the > aesthetics of a tail > wheeled aircraft (if that in fact appeals to you), > its (modest) performance > benefits, nor for that matter the just plain fun of > a wheel landing and > carrying the tail up half way down the runway! > > Sorry for the rant---sometimes you just feel like > chiming in, you know?? > > Lee... > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RVSouthEast-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:01 AM PST US From: bill crothers Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Insurance Advice [was re: Boeing Crosswind Movie] I find crosswind in TWs no big deal due to short wing. Don't let that sway you. Reno --- Dale Ensing wrote: > Ensing" > > Had similar experience to Dwight's with three way > partnership in a Cessna > 170A while building the RV-6A. My total time in TW > is still more than I have > in tricycle gear. However, one of the influencing > factors in deciding on an > RV 'A' model.was, when flying cross country with the > 170A, I found myself > picking airports based on wind direction . Have > landed in cross wind > conditions with the 6A that I would never have tried > with the TW 170A. Maybe > the TW RV's are more mangeable in cross winds than > the 170? > Dale Ensing > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dwight Frye" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:11 AM > Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Insurance Advice [was > re: Boeing Crosswind > Movie] > > > Frye > > > > On Wed Sep 12 18:38:57 2007, Larry Bowen wrote : > >>Getting 5 hours of TW instruction will help you > decide either way. I have > >>no regrets with my TW. > > > > Then again .. you can do the crazy thing I did. I > partnered with a > > couple of friends on a 1967 Citabria 7ECA. > > so far). I'm now at the 30-hour mark on tailwheel > time, and am having > > a ball. > > >> -- Dwight > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RVSouthEast-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:24 AM PST US From: "Randy Pinkston" Subject: RE: RVSouthEast-List: Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 09/12/07 Flown both ,,,have the A & as for flying & looks tw all the way, but on the ground, not counting looks there is no better way to go than an A!!!!!!!! resale,,ins. Short field,,being able to see [taxi],cleaning underside ect. Ect. An A is like landing a 150 cessna,,can't get any better! Just look out for the rabbits! Ha..ha Randy Pinkston 705rp 390 hrs -----Original Message----- From: owner-rvsoutheast-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rvsoutheast-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bill crothers Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:59 AM Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Re: RVSouthEast-List Digest: 11 Msgs - 09/12/07 Ditto Lee, wouldn't go back to nosewheel from TW --- lee.logan@gulfstream.com wrote: > lee.logan@gulfstream.com > > Seems to me the best data to help someone with this > decision is not who > backs tail wheels (mostly that would be guys who > already decided in favor > of them) or who backs nose wheels (ditto) but to ask > who would change if > they had it to do all over again. My take is that > guys who haven't flown > tail wheeled aircraft have a somewhat unfounded > concern about how difficult > they are to fly. Personally, I see them as > different, not difficult (are > nose gear airplanes marginally easier to take off > and land----probably, but > not enough to make much of a difference at this size > and speed aircraft). > > If there are those out there who are now flying > tailwheeled RV's who would > go with a nose wheel next time, that could be useful > data (and vice versa, > of course). Off the top of my head, I would guess > that there are more > nose gear guys who, having flown RV's for awhile > now, are sorry they didn't > go ahead with a tail wheel after all than there are > tail wheel guys rueing > their decision. > > I'll vote first. Tail wheel all the way and would > not change. My first > was a tail wheel and now I'm building another. Hope > that helps! > > Great fun to think about again, regardless of your > final decision. I would > personally not let a concern for the challenge of > flying a tail wheeled RV > (there isn't much of one to begin with) deny me the > aesthetics of a tail > wheeled aircraft (if that in fact appeals to you), > its (modest) performance > benefits, nor for that matter the just plain fun of > a wheel landing and > carrying the tail up half way down the runway! > > Sorry for the rant---sometimes you just feel like > chiming in, you know?? > > Lee... > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RVSouthEast-List > > Web Forums! > > > > > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:58:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: RVSouthEast-List: Tail Wheel Discussion (again) From: "Robin Marks" Ok, I am going give a shout out for the Sissy Wheel pilots like me that may be discouraged from saying they PREFER the A models for whatever reason. My first RV was a -4. I had zero time in a TW so I received instruction in a Citabria for the requisite number of hours to get proficient in both three point & wheel landing for both regular & X-wind situations. I then went on to add 200+ landings in my -4 which should be enough to get a few of them right. The issue with my -4 was W&B as I was not able to take any of my fat ass golf buddies with me for trips or local tours so I decided to get a side by side plane. I took a flight in a friend's 6A and was sold on the performance Vans built into that great design. I chose to buy a 6A and specifically selected the A for its overall ground and landing characteristics. While I became proficient at landing the -4 in most conditions I look like a genius landing the 6A because of the nose wheel. I basically never land with a bounce, hop or generally even a chirp. Often I can set the mains down so gently that I feel the wheels start spinning as they make contact with the runway. Now I did not instantly become a better pilot when I started flying the A model? No the A's were just a lot easier for ME to land. And personally it's just as fun holding the nose wheel off the ground as long as I can as it was flying the tail until I ran out of lift. I tend to give a lot of "never been in a small plane" people local tours and I take pride in making their first landing something other than the controlled crash that they expect and for me that is best accomplished in an A design. All that being said I am considering an RV-8A with a military paint scheme and It just does not look right in a A configuration. The things guys will do for good looks! Robin Marks RV-4 Sold RV-6A 375 hours RV-10"A" First Flight Q1/Q2 2008 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:21 PM PST US From: "Bill Repucci" Subject: RE: RVSouthEast-List: Boeing Crosswind Testing Movie (text in Portuguese?) Robbie, Build the airplane you want, not the one others want for themselves. I'm a low time pilot, about 350 hours, when I first flew my -9. (For the record, this is a -9, not a -9A.) 150 of those hours were in various tail wheel aircraft. The insurance requirement was all of three hours in any side-by-side RV before my first flight. There was no $800 insurance premium for me. Heck, as near as I can there was no tail wheel premium attached to this plane. As for learning how to fly a tail wheel, I'll let you in on a little secrete, it isn't any harder than learning to land an airplane. 10 hours and you will be ready to solo. Does the endorsement make you a better pilot? Not in my opinion. What makes someone a good pilot is their judgment, not how good they are with their feet. Just remember, when landing a tail wheel airplane the main thing is to keep it straight, no matter what else happens, just keep it straight and all will work out. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-rvsoutheast-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rvsoutheast-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Walter Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:43 PM Subject: RE: RVSouthEast-List: Boeing Crosswind Testing Movie (text in Portuguese?) --> Insurance can be $800 or more higher for the tailwheel. Get a quote before you build. Dale -----Original Message----- From: owner-rvsoutheast-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rvsoutheast-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robbie Walker Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:38 PM Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Boeing Crosswind Testing Movie (text in Portuguese?) Ed, Thanks for both the excellent advice and the relevant anecdotes. Now I have a headache! But seriously, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm struggling with. On one hand, I like the looks of the conventional gear and it's my understanding (having NEVER flown in or landed one...) that they are better on grass, worse on pavement. I've also been told that if you really know what you are doing, they are no harder to land. But I've also seen incident reports where many much more experienced pilots than myself ground-looping them or worse. Not that the tricycle are immune to landing issues... what plane is? Also, for everyone else, I'm NOT trying to get this debate started up again, I'm just thinking out loud. Do Not Archive Robbie Walker On Sep 12, 2007, at 11:43 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: > > > Robbie, like most decisions, there are pros and cons. I have flown > both taildraggers and nose gear in and out of grass and paved > strips. In my advancing years, I find a nose wheel lessens > apprehension in coping with adverse wind conditions on landing. > I found on one emergency aborted takeoff (got airborne and put it > back down on a 2200 foot strip) that the nose wheel enabled me to > apply maximum braking (left rubber for 300 ft - no lock up, just a > good grip) which in a tail dragger would have end up on its nose > (or back). On the other hand, as several recent incidents have > shown landing an Rv- on its nose gear can result on your back as > well. The bottom line is neither is going to save you from a > really screwed up landing - so don't make one {:>). > > Getting viewpoints on each is good approach, but ultimately you > need to go with what You want and feel comfortable with - > regardless of other viewpoints on your choice. If you have not > yet, try to get a ride in an RV both with and without nose gear and > see if one appeals to you more than the other - because when its > said and done, appeal is going to be a large driver in your decision. > > Good luck > > Ed > > Ed Anderson > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > Matthews, NC > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robbie Walker" > > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:29 AM > Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Boeing Crosswind Testing Movie (text > in Portuguese?) > > >> >> >> Sweet... love the Boston at the beginning. >> I'm still at the "mental" stage of things, so my decisions seem to >> vacillate. >> I was leaning towards a 7 for my wife... but she really doesn't >> like to fly at all so I'm back to leaning towards the 8. >> I was leaning towards tricycle but now I'm at conventional. >> >> I guess I need to finish getting my garage cleaned out now that >> we moved in last week and get the empennage ordered. >> >> Robbie Walker >> >> On Sep 12, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Dale Walter wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Nice video Robbie, thanks for sharing. Here is one from >>> yesterday in our >>> RV6a with a 2 turn spin, instrument panel is included: >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0ujjspDGXM >>> >>> >>> This is dedicated to Bert M in Orlando, who inspired me. Do not >>> archive >>> >>> Happy landings, >>> Dale >>> RV6a 920 hrs, large rudder >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This may be old hat to some of y'all, but I found it quite >>> interesting. Definitely making me re-open the conventional vs. >>> tricycle debate with myself. >>> >>> http://www.motionbox.com/video/player/a09addb11a1e28#1 >>> >>> Robbie Walker >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RVSouthEast-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rvsoutheast-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rvsoutheast-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.