Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:41 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A (bburril)
2. 06:43 AM - Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A (Speedy11@aol.com)
3. 06:46 AM - Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A (Speedy11@aol.com)
4. 09:31 AM - Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A (NationAir)
5. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A (bburril)
6. 04:54 PM - Cappy, take a bow! (Ron Schreck)
7. 06:51 PM - Re: Cappy, take a bow! (Steve Glasgow)
8. 06:54 PM - Re: Cappy, take a bow! (Steve Glasgow)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A |
You tell him Dan it is price fixing in every way!!!----- Original
Message -----
From: "Dan Horton" <danhorton@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: RVSouthEast-List: Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A
> <danhorton@elmore.rr.com>
>
> <<Typically in AIG's quoting system the underwriters are supposed to check
> each risk to see if it has been previously quoted. >>
>
> David, thank you for your explanation, but I must say the "quote capture"
> system referenced above is perhaps the single most irritating thing about
> aircraft insurance. It is an anti-competitive price-fixing game designed
> to protect broker commissions. First broker to obtain a quote from a
> particular underwriter has you captured....which is why every broker's
> first request is "let me get you a quote". Sure, you can chat with him
> all you like, but when he gives you a price, you're locked; in theory you
> can't get a quote from another broker for insurance with that same
> underwriter.
>
> Ahh, but you say all quotes from the same underwriter would all be the
> same anyway? Well, yes they would, IF the brokers all agreed to not
> discount commissions. However, that would be unlikely in a free market,
> and probably illegal anyway.
>
> Imagine a system where the first Chevy dealer to register your name with
> GM was the only dealer allowed to sell you a car....and as such, his
> profit was non-negotiable.
>
> Dan Horton
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A |
David,
An excellent reply and explanation. There are always two sides to a story.
However ... consider that as consumers we recognize you, the retailer, as
"the insurance company" much as we recognize the local grocery store as a food
supplier - even though they are only the retailer for the food industry. So,
when we, as insurance consumers, have an insurance problem we look to you
(the insurance company) for resolution. We have paid you to intervene for us
and we expect value for the premium we pay. As you know, value is really the
"perception" of value and the critical part of the perception equation lies
with the consumer.
Furthermore, I don't buy your argument regarding the reasoning for doubling
the premium on the new aircraft. A "surcharge" is not suitable. I'm certain
that insurance underwriters build in to their premiums additional fees to
cover situations where a loss occurs immediately after retention of a policy.
All premium payers are charged for that valuable part of the policy. Thus,
doubling a premium because a loss occurred on day one of a policy is not, in
my opinion, a valid argument.
Additionally, there is another insurance industry policy that disturbs me to
no end. I call it "honor among thieves." If I have an insurance policy
that is 6 months into its planned coverage, you will not quote a price for me.
You insist on not stepping on another insurance retailer's toes. Why?
I know, since I've questioned the almighty insurance businesses, my
insurance rates will probably now suddenly increase - but, I can assure you I'm
not
the only consumer who has these questions.
Stan Sutterfield
[quote="rickgray(at)roadrunner.co"]I 'used' to recommend Nation Air as
well. I
probably (regretfully) sent a couple dozen RV folks to them. They were
GREAT...right
up until I had a claim due to an engine out off airport landing. They
finally paid off but when I wanted to insure another RV they MORE THAN
DOUBLED
my premium for the same hull value and blamed the rate increase on the claim
and AIG when asked why the HUGE increase. I told them 'no thank you' and
called Mac at AUA. After telling Mac about the claim and Nation Air.....AUA
(Mac)
provided me with the same hull value for the same premium I was paying
before
the accident......through AIG. Hmmm...go figure. There's more to the story
but if I told the rest you'd think I was just here to put down Nation
Air....I'm
not....just sharing a couple of facts...you can make up your own mind.
The short of it is that they were super as long as I was paying my
premium....when
I needed them the most they weren't my friends anymore. I would NEVER
recommend Nation Air again.
Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
> ---
I would like to clarify a few things regarding this loss. First, some
industry
basics for clarification purposes. There are three parties involved in
every
insurance transaction They are the insured (owner of the aircraft), the
broker
( the person/company who gets the quotes and collects the premium for the
underwriter)
and the underwriter/insurance company(actual company that insures
the aircraft and pays the claims. The broker pays the company out of the
premium
you send him/her). A broker does not pay claims. A broker does not set
insurance rates. There are several mentions above stating that NationAir
took
a long time to pay and that NationAir was doubling his premium. We do not
control
the payment of claims - the underwriter / insurance company does. We can
help the process move along by making sure the insured knows what information
he may need to bring the claim to a settlement, but somethings are out of our
hands. We do not control rates, we simply let you know the rates and the
coverages
associated with those rates. We negotiate when we can the best rates
and coverages for you and your aircraft.
The loss occurred the same day the policy was started.
The reason the claim payout took as long as it did was the title to the
aircraft
was not clear. In order for any insurance company to pay on a total loss,
they
need clear title because they take the aircraft and sell the salvage.
Because
the loss occurred same day as the purchase, a clear title was not readily
available. It took approximately 60 days from the date of loss to go through
this process and pay the claim for the FULL stated hull value of the
aircraft.
As for the premium, the insurance company only charged one day of premium for
this total loss payout.
The reason for the insurance increase was due to the fact the underwriter
(EAA
Program underwriter Global Aerospace) had just paid out a significant loss
and
collected very little premium. The loss was not Ricks fault, but the
insurance
principle is similar to homeowners insurance, if they pay a large loss even
if it is not your fault, they may surcharge you for a year or two to help
offset
the loss ratio against you. That was the case here.
In the past our industry, especially the underwriters, typically would
decline
to quote new business that had a recent loss even whether or not the loss
was
the pilots fault. We tried to negotiate with Global on the rate because we
felt
it was high, but they would not budge. We also approached AIG I actually
went to the top man the Manager for their Eastern Division and received a
quote
which was even higher than the Global quote. Typically in AIGs quoting
system
the underwriters are supposed to check each risk to see if it has been
previously
quoted. In this case that did not happen and a line underwriter quoted
the risk to a different broker, lower than what the branch manager had
quoted.
It is very rare that this occurs, but it does occur.
I want to assure all of you that we take your business seriously and we are
your
advocates at any renewal or in any claim. I know this business very well
having
done aviation insurance claims for Avemco and U.S. Specialty and having been
an aviation underwriter at USAIG. At NationAir we have a dedicated agent
in Jenny Estes that focuses on the needs of RV builders and flyers. Together
our office focuses on light aircraft including RVs and this is all we do, so
your account doesnt get pushed aside so we can work on a charter account or
corporate
flight department.
There are many good brokers in this industry SkySmith, Falcon name a few.
Pick
the one that will give you the best service and rates. Falcon is the broker
for the EAA Program - BUT that program available to all brokers at the same
rates
they do not get additional discounts. Falcon is not the EAA insurance
company
Global Aerospace is.
--------
David McCoy
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A |
Ah, I should have kept reading the list. Dan Horton asked a similar
question.
Stan Sutterfield
David, thank you for your explanation, but I must say the "quote capture"
system referenced above is perhaps the single most irritating thing about
aircraft insurance. It is an anti-competitive price-fixing game designed
to protect broker commissions. First broker to obtain a quote from a
particular underwriter has you captured....which is why every broker's first
request is "let me get you a quote". Sure, you can chat with him all you
like, but when he gives you a price, you're locked; in theory you can't get
a quote from another broker for insurance with that same underwriter.
Ahh, but you say all quotes from the same underwriter would all be the same
anyway? Well, yes they would, IF the brokers all agreed to not discount
commissions. However, that would be unlikely in a free market, and probably
illegal anyway.
Imagine a system where the first Chevy dealer to register your name with GM
was the only dealer allowed to sell you a car....and as such, his profit was
non-negotiable.
Dan Horton
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A |
[quote="Speedy11(at)aol.com"]David,
An excellent reply and explanation. There are always two sides to a story.
However ... consider that as consumers we recognize you, the retailer, as "the
insurance company" much as we recognize the local grocery store as a food supplier
- even though they are only the retailer for the food industry. So, when
we, as insurance consumers, have an insurance problem we look to you (the
insurance company) for resolution. We have paid you to intervene for us and
we expect value for the premium we pay. As you know, value is really the "perception"
of value and the critical part of the perception equation lies with
the consumer.
Furthermore, I don't buy your argument regarding the reasoning for doubling the
premium on the new aircraft. A "surcharge" is not suitable. I'm certain
that insurance underwriters build in to their premiums additional fees to cover
situations where a loss occurs immediately after retention of a policy. All
premium payers are charged for that valuable part of the policy. Thus, doubling
a premium because a loss occurred on day one of a policy is not, in my
opinion, a valid argument.
Additionally, there is another insurance industry policy that disturbs me to
no end. I call it "honor among thieves." If I have an insurance policy that
is 6 months into its planned coverage, you will not quote a price for me. You
insist on not stepping on another insurance retailer's toes. Why?
I know, since I've questioned the almighty insurance businesses, my insurance
rates will probably now suddenly increase - but, I can assure you I'm not the
only consumer who has these questions.
Stan Sutterfield [Quote]
Stan-
Yep raised your rates today! Never question the almighty. HA HA HA - just kidding.
Thank you for your concerns they are valid points when it comes to this industry.
I'll try to shed some light on your thoughts and hope not to get run out of
town.
[Wink]
Your right - value is the perception of the consumer gets in return for what he
has paid money for. If no losses ever occur and all you do year after year is
renew your coverage - the value may seem low. If you have a loss and the underwriter
pays right away and you don't have complications - the value may be
high, if you have a loss and things don't go easily or go the clients way the
value is worthless many times. It's our job as brokers in every instance to keep
the value high. That is done in many ways. Answering questions anytime you
have one about the market or your policy, responding to change requests promptly,
aiding in your claim settlement if needed, and making sure you have the
right coverage for the right price. Cheaper is not always in your best interest.
As for the built in premium for first day losses. In some policies yes this is
the case - the policies where your premium is "fully earned" in the event of
a loss. In my expierence as an underwriter, most policies - including the Global
Aerospace (EAA) policy allows for the pro-rata return of unearned hull premium
in a total loss. In those cases the premium is not built in. They just
hope they have very few losses early in the policy period. The only time they
charge more is if you are new to the airplane and you do not have make and model
experience - then they up the price some for what hey consider a higher exposure.
Under the Global or similar policy if you have a loss for one day you
only pay for one day of premium. Also in this case the "surcharge" was not
because the loss happened in the first day - it was because of the large loss.
Typically the number of days does not really matter.
As for the "honor among thieves." I know this seems like it works against you
but in reality it works everyone in the long run. Policies are set up for a year.
This allows for ease of renewals and time for many people to get a good
transition in the aircraft. The underwriters are staffed accordingly to process
these annual policies along with changes that may occur throughout the year.
If you were to get a quote two times a year they would need additional staff
and you would have to complete more and more paperwork. Because the current
quoting systems (maunal underwriting)- especially with experimentals requires
underwriter review you would have to double staff to keep up with the work load.
More staff and work just leads to higher pricing on the consumers end. Many
of these insurance underwriters are smaller than you think. Also, since the
policies state that if the insured cancels the policy for any reason before
its annual due date you get whats called a "short-rate" return. Many times the
penalty involved with a short rate return is equal to or more than the savings
on the next policy. Again its main purpose is to keep the cost of business
down. Not a great explaination but this is a tough one to explain by typing.
--------
David McCoy
Branch Manager
Light Aircraft Division
NationAir Aviation Insurance
www.nationair.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178673#178673
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A |
You tell them Stan i'am so mad I can't.
----- Original Message -----
From: Speedy11@aol.com
To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:40 AM
Subject: RVSouthEast-List: Re: Aircraft Insurance - for 9A
David,
An excellent reply and explanation. There are always two sides to a
story.
However ... consider that as consumers we recognize you, the retailer,
as "the insurance company" much as we recognize the local grocery store
as a food supplier - even though they are only the retailer for the food
industry. So, when we, as insurance consumers, have an insurance
problem we look to you (the insurance company) for resolution. We have
paid you to intervene for us and we expect value for the premium we pay.
As you know, value is really the "perception" of value and the critical
part of the perception equation lies with the consumer.
Furthermore, I don't buy your argument regarding the reasoning for
doubling the premium on the new aircraft. A "surcharge" is not
suitable. I'm certain that insurance underwriters build in to their
premiums additional fees to cover situations where a loss occurs
immediately after retention of a policy. All premium payers are charged
for that valuable part of the policy. Thus, doubling a premium because
a loss occurred on day one of a policy is not, in my opinion, a valid
argument.
Additionally, there is another insurance industry policy that disturbs
me to no end. I call it "honor among thieves." If I have an insurance
policy that is 6 months into its planned coverage, you will not quote a
price for me. You insist on not stepping on another insurance
retailer's toes. Why?
I know, since I've questioned the almighty insurance businesses, my
insurance rates will probably now suddenly increase - but, I can assure
you I'm not the only consumer who has these questions.
Stan Sutterfield
[quote="rickgray(at)roadrunner.co"]I 'used' to recommend Nation
Air as well. I
probably (regretfully) sent a couple dozen RV folks to them. They
were GREAT...right
up until I had a claim due to an engine out off airport landing.
They
finally paid off but when I wanted to insure another RV they MORE
THAN DOUBLED
my premium for the same hull value and blamed the rate increase on
the claim
and AIG when asked why the HUGE increase. I told them 'no thank you'
and
called Mac at AUA. After telling Mac about the claim and Nation
Air.....AUA (Mac)
provided me with the same hull value for the same premium I was
paying before
the accident......through AIG. Hmmm...go figure. There's more to the
story
but if I told the rest you'd think I was just here to put down
Nation Air....I'm
not....just sharing a couple of facts...you can make up your own
mind.
The short of it is that they were super as long as I was paying my
premium....when
I needed them the most they weren't my friends anymore. I would
NEVER
recommend Nation Air again.
Rick in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
> ---
I would like to clarify a few things regarding this loss. First,
some industry
basics for clarification purposes. There are three parties
involved in every
insurance transaction They are the insured (owner of the aircraft),
the broker
( the person/company who gets the quotes and collects the premium
for the underwriter)
and the underwriter/insurance company(actual company that insures
the aircraft and pays the claims. The broker pays the company out
of the premium
you send him/her). A broker does not pay claims. A broker does not
set
insurance rates. There are several mentions above stating that
NationAir took
a long time to pay and that NationAir was doubling his premium. We
do not control
the payment of claims - the underwriter / insurance company does.
We can
help the process move along by making sure the insured knows what
information
he may need to bring the claim to a settlement, but somethings are
out of our
hands. We do not control rates, we simply let you know the rates
and the coverages
associated with those rates. We negotiate when we can the best
rates
and coverages for you and your aircraft.
The loss occurred the same day the policy was started.
The reason the claim payout took as long as it did was the title to
the aircraft
was not clear. In order for any insurance company to pay on a total
loss, they
need clear title because they take the aircraft and sell the
salvage. Because
the loss occurred same day as the purchase, a clear title was not
readily
available. It took approximately 60 days from the date of loss to
go through
this process and pay the claim for the FULL stated hull value of the
aircraft.
As for the premium, the insurance company only charged one day of
premium for
this total loss payout.
The reason for the insurance increase was due to the fact the
underwriter (EAA
Program underwriter Global Aerospace) had just paid out a
significant loss and
collected very little premium. The loss was not Ricks fault, but
the insurance
principle is similar to homeowners insurance, if they pay a large
loss even
if it is not your fault, they may surcharge you for a year or two to
help offset
the loss ratio against you. That was the case here.
In the past our industry, especially the underwriters, typically
would decline
to quote new business that had a recent loss even whether or not
the loss was
the pilots fault. We tried to negotiate with Global on the rate
because we felt
it was high, but they would not budge. We also approached AIG I
actually
went to the top man the Manager for their Eastern Division and
received a quote
which was even higher than the Global quote. Typically in AIGs
quoting system
the underwriters are supposed to check each risk to see if it has
been previously
quoted. In this case that did not happen and a line underwriter
quoted
the risk to a different broker, lower than what the branch manager
had quoted.
It is very rare that this occurs, but it does occur.
I want to assure all of you that we take your business seriously and
we are your
advocates at any renewal or in any claim. I know this business very
well having
done aviation insurance claims for Avemco and U.S. Specialty and
having been
an aviation underwriter at USAIG. At NationAir we have a dedicated
agent
in Jenny Estes that focuses on the needs of RV builders and flyers.
Together
our office focuses on light aircraft including RVs and this is all
we do, so
your account doesnt get pushed aside so we can work on a charter
account or corporate
flight department.
There are many good brokers in this industry SkySmith, Falcon name a
few. Pick
the one that will give you the best service and rates. Falcon is
the broker
for the EAA Program - BUT that program available to all brokers at
the same rates
they do not get additional discounts. Falcon is not the EAA
insurance company
Global Aerospace is.
--------
David McCoy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings
at AOL Autos.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Cappy, take a bow! |
Is that is or is that not Cappy's RV-8 on the cover of the Virginia 2007-2008 Aeronautical
Chart?
http://www.doav.virginia.gov/
Smokey
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Cappy, take a bow! |
I am trying to take a bow, but can't find it on the
http://www.doav.virginia.gov/. Help me Smokey!!!!
Cappy
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Schreck
To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:51 PM
Subject: RVSouthEast-List: Cappy, take a bow!
<ronschreck@windstream.net>
Is that is or is that not Cappy's RV-8 on the cover of the Virginia
2007-2008 Aeronautical Chart?
http://www.doav.virginia.gov/
Smokey
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Cappy, take a bow! |
I found it! Wow! Don't even know who is next to me. Got to get me one
of those charts. Thanks for finding it Smokey.
Just scroll down.
Cappy
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Schreck
To: rvsoutheast-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:51 PM
Subject: RVSouthEast-List: Cappy, take a bow!
<ronschreck@windstream.net>
Is that is or is that not Cappy's RV-8 on the cover of the Virginia
2007-2008 Aeronautical Chart?
http://www.doav.virginia.gov/
Smokey
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