Today's Message Index:
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1. 11:13 AM - using 87-0ctane with ethanol (LarryMcFarland)
2. 05:01 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Bryan Martin)
3. 07:28 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Tim Shankland)
4. 08:56 PM - Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol (Bryan Martin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
Hi guys,
Ive been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I fly a
Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, Ive only used
87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to once a
month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline. At
preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass jar
more than half way. Ive never found any sign of water or found less
than clear fuel so its drained back into 5-gallon storage tanks. The
oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use and the
Subarus performance doesnt seem to have been affected. Ive
transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no apparent
problems. Ive never seen signs of water in the 601s gascolator, the
quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. Im only optimistic that
perhaps the fuel Im using is from stations that have rapid turnover
fuel stocks and a handle on their water separation. Im going to fly a
lot more this year and have also acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that
can be carried empty in the wing baggage area for ease of retrieving
fuel from the street.
Thats been the experience so far.
Do fly safe,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
If you are using gasoline with 10% alcohol in it, you won't see any
water in your samples or your gascolator because any water will be
held in suspension in the fuel by the alcohol -- up to a point, that
is. If enough water gets into the fuel, it will all settle out to the
bottom of the tank taking the alcohol with it. At this point, you will
now have gasoline with a significantly reduced octane rating floating
over a mixture of water and alcohol, neither substance will do nice
things for your engine. This is exactly how you test for alcohol in
gasoline, mix about 10% water with the gas and see if the apparent
water level increases as it settles out. So if you ever do find
"water" in your fuel tank while using gasohol, you might as well drain
the entire tank because the remaining gasoline in the tank will
probably have too low an octane rating to be safely used in your
Subaru engine.
When gas stations start using gasohol, they no longer have to drain
the water from their tank sumps because all the water gets pumped into
the gas tanks of their customers cars mixed with the fuel. On the
other hand, if the storage tank has a lot of water in it before that
first load of gasohol gets dumped into it, the next customers will
pump either low octane gas or the water/alcohol mix into their cars,
depending on whether the separation point ends up above or below the
level of the pump intakes.
Cold winter air can't hold a lot of water, so there isn't a lot to get
absorbed by the alcohol in the gasoline. Hot summer air can hold a lot
of water.
On May 10, 2008, at 2:10 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote:
> >
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Ive been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
> fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, Ive only
> used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to
> once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.
> At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass
> jar more than half way. Ive never found any sign of water or found
> less than clear fuel so its drained back into 5-gallon storage
> tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use
> and the Subarus performance doesnt seem to have been affected.
> Ive transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no
> apparent problems. Ive never seen signs of water in the 601s
> gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. Im
> only optimistic that perhaps the fuel Im using is from stations
> that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water
> separation. Im going to fly a lot more this year and have also
> acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the
> wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the street.
>
> Thats been the experience so far.
>
> Do fly safe,
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
I haven't really gotten into this but must make a comment. I remember
going to an FAA safety seminar about 25 or 30 years ago where we were
told in no uncertain terms that if we used auto fuel in our aircraft we
would DIE. They gave all the usual reasons, vapor lock, contamination
from "unsafe" fuel supplies etc. Then we found out when tested, other
than by all those pilots that were flying with it anyway, that it did
not do all those things and if we had any expensive piece of paper we
could use auto fuel in our airplanes. My Zodiac as a Suburu and I built
it with aluminum tanks and lines and the flexible lines are automotive,
you know those that tolerate gas and alcohol. I also talked to Bing
about my carburetors and they told me that since they were also used on
many ultra lights their materials were not effected by gasohol. When
people ask me how much aviation fuel cost I honestly don't know because
I get my gas at the Meijers Store.
Tim Shankland
Bryan Martin wrote:
> <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> If you are using gasoline with 10% alcohol in it, you won't see any
> water in your samples or your gascolator because any water will be
> held in suspension in the fuel by the alcohol -- up to a point, that
> is. If enough water gets into the fuel, it will all settle out to the
> bottom of the tank taking the alcohol with it. At this point, you
> will now have gasoline with a significantly reduced octane rating
> floating over a mixture of water and alcohol, neither substance will
> do nice things for your engine. This is exactly how you test for
> alcohol in gasoline, mix about 10% water with the gas and see if the
> apparent water level increases as it settles out. So if you ever do
> find "water" in your fuel tank while using gasohol, you might as well
> drain the entire tank because the remaining gasoline in the tank
> will probably have too low an octane rating to be safely used in
> your Subaru engine.
>
> When gas stations start using gasohol, they no longer have to drain
> the water from their tank sumps because all the water gets pumped
> into the gas tanks of their customers cars mixed with the fuel. On
> the other hand, if the storage tank has a lot of water in it before
> that first load of gasohol gets dumped into it, the next customers
> will pump either low octane gas or the water/alcohol mix into their
> cars, depending on whether the separation point ends up above or
> below the level of the pump intakes.
>
> Cold winter air can't hold a lot of water, so there isn't a lot to
> get absorbed by the alcohol in the gasoline. Hot summer air can hold
> a lot of water.
>
> On May 10, 2008, at 2:10 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote:
>
>> <larry@macsmachine.com >
>>
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Ive been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
>> fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, Ive only
>> used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to
>> once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.
>> At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass
>> jar more than half way. Ive never found any sign of water or found
>> less than clear fuel so its drained back into 5-gallon storage
>> tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use
>> and the Subarus performance doesnt seem to have been affected.
>> Ive transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no
>> apparent problems. Ive never seen signs of water in the 601s
>> gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. Im
>> only optimistic that perhaps the fuel Im using is from stations
>> that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water
>> separation. Im going to fly a lot more this year and have also
>> acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the
>> wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the street.
>>
>> Thats been the experience so far.
>>
>> Do fly safe,
>>
>> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol |
I used to use auto gas in my Zodiac also, but lately I haven't been
able to find any that isn't contaminated with alcohol. The airport I
fly out of is selling avgas for $4.15 a gallon right now so I'm not
too worried about the price compared to $3.80 a gallon auto gas. Maybe
with enough people screaming about the price of food right now, our
congress idiots will back off of this ethanol kick they're currently
on. We may need to start dragging some of the corn lobbyists out in
the street and beating up on them along with the legislators who keep
pandering to them to put an end to this stupidity.
If you want to use alcohol as fuel, then use alcohol. If you want to
use gasoline, then use gasoline. No way in hell should we be forced to
mix the two together.
> >
>
> I haven't really gotten into this but must make a comment. I
> remember going to an FAA safety seminar about 25 or 30 years ago
> where we were told in no uncertain terms that if we used auto fuel
> in our aircraft we would DIE. They gave all the usual reasons, vapor
> lock, contamination from "unsafe" fuel supplies etc. Then we found
> out when tested, other than by all those pilots that were flying
> with it anyway, that it did not do all those things and if we had
> any expensive piece of paper we could use auto fuel in our
> airplanes. My Zodiac as a Suburu and I built it with aluminum tanks
> and lines and the flexible lines are automotive, you know those that
> tolerate gas and alcohol. I also talked to Bing about my carburetors
> and they told me that since they were also used on many ultra lights
> their materials were not effected by gasohol. When people ask me how
> much aviation fuel cost I honestly don't know because I get my gas
> at the Meijers Store.
> Tim Shankland
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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