Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:15 AM - Re: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem ()
2. 07:30 AM - Re: [Probable Spam] Fw: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem (Larry McFarland)
3. 09:53 AM - Re: [Probable Spam] Fw: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem (ron hansen)
4. 02:43 PM - Re: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem (Tim Shankland)
5. 04:26 PM - Re: [Probable Spam] Fw: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem (Larry McFarland)
6. 05:13 PM - Re: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem (ron hansen)
7. 07:19 PM - Re: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem (Andy Fultz)
8. 08:26 PM - Re: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem (ron hansen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem |
Good point Larry. I found that a higher pitch setting ran cooler than a fine pitch.
Counter-intuitive to me. 12 degrees ran hot, 16 degrees was noticeably
cooler.
Gary
---- Larry McFarland <larry@macsmachine.com> wrote:
> HI Ron,
>
> The cooling issue is very common, but coolant temps should never see more
> than 200 on a hot day in a perpetual climb. My cowl opening just ahead of
> the oil pan for some reason cools better in a climb than going fast flat and
> level. As you've done the jetting, you might consider the propeller pitch.
> My Warp Drive 70-inch 3 blade set for 17-1/2 degrees per their instrument
> does a much better job of cooling flat out at or near
>
> 120 mph. The pitch allows lower rpms, better speed. I trim nose down
> carefully to get best speed by setting rpms to 4300 for best fuel burn until
> the rate of climb gage indicates level flight. You feel the center of lift
> move slightly back on the wing and get optimum cooling this way too. Odd, I
> flew for a year or more before realizing that trimming in the last bit of
> down elevator at a cruise rpm would increase performance and cooling so
> much. Used to also worry that the nose was always slightly up before
> discovering this.
>
> I seldom fly flat out as there's no way to justify the fuel burn and engine
> wear at 5000 rpm.
>
> Note the links show the hole in front of the oil pan and heat from the
> exhaust pipes is fed cool air either side of the cowl looking straight in
>
> at aluminum sleeve clearance aluminum. They made a significant difference.
>
>
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601ezclosefrtrt.gif
>
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowelfrtlower.gif
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Fly safe
>
>
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron hansen
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 5:53 PM
> To: stratus-list@matronics.com
> Subject: [Probable Spam] Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling
> problem
>
>
>
> Hi listers,
>
> I've been quiet a long time due to life interfering with my plans, but I
> need some help. I had about 60 hours on my 601HDS with a Stratus on it. I
> was fighting temp. issues from the start, adjusting the carb jets and such.
> I had Ram modify the heads before it flew. Anyway, I never went past the
> Stratus 230 deg. "water temp" redline, but often approached it. Taxiing in
> after 60 flight hours I broke a valve seat and later learned broke a piston.
> I have not been pleased with Stratus support for years so I had Ram
> Performance rebuild the engine. He also made some other changes and it now
> runs stronger and cooler, but still not cool enough. I moved the "water
> temp" probe from the Stratus setup in the cylinder head dry-hole to actual
> water as it comes out of the engine. Ram says water temp redline should be
> 220 deg. and the engine should run at the thermostat setting of 190 deg.
> Research I've done would indicate the same for long engine life.
>
> Anyway, I still get water temp climbing to 220 a few minutes after takeoff
> on a warm day and I suspect it would go higher. My radiator is the stock
> Zenair radiator installed per plans. Gaps are sealed. Coolant is 50/50 per
> instructions. I'm beginning to think the Zenith setup is not suitable for a
> 100HP engine that is water cooled. The Rotax they designed it for only uses
> water to cool the heads.
>
> I don't want to ruin my new Ram-rebuilt engine. It is running really well:
> stronger, cooler, lower fuel burn......but it's not running at the temps it
> should do to a weak cooling system. If anyone has data or ideas that would
> help I would appreciate hearing from you. I recall all sorts of discussion
> from years past (this plane took me many years to build from plans), but I
> can't remember where all those ideas ended up. I know some were abandoned,
> but others probably solved some or all of the problem. I've gone through
> the archives, but you never know if you're missing something important that
> came later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Hansen
> Los Angeles
> 601HDS, Ram-Rebuilt (formerly Stratus) Subaru EA81
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling |
problem
Ron,
I use a gage that Warp Drive makes for setting the pitch. It's accurate to
half a degree and you should have one. I have a spare one if you want it.
Send me your address and I'll mail it to you.
My pitch is based from the top longeron, not the propeller center line. The
gage is set by presetting the desired degrees, clamping the gage on the end
of the prop and adjusting the blade to get the bubble level on the gage.
(Very accurate & consistent) Just add or subtract the difference from level
on the longeron. My longeron are 2 degrees nose up (tri-gear) and pitch has
to be adjusted for that to get level flight.
I've not made any radiator intakes for a while, so I pitched the mold. I
still have the form for the intake and could make a new mold if you want
one. I couldn't do one until sometime after Oshkosh. I have to get $200.00
for the intake as it represents two full days work plus materials. It does
eliminate turbulence at the radiator opening and provide better flow on the
negative side of the louvers which results in better cooling by 7 degrees or
more plus the 5 you get with the louvers. The radiator is set behind the
firewall 32 inches and I've flown with it both up front and back where it is
now. The CG is better with it back there owing to the weight of the Subaru.
I like the look of it as well. Study the radiator construct on my engine
page for minor changes you would need and let me know if you want an intake.
Other thing that helps get rid of engine temps is exhaust wrap. Not so hard
to do, but it keeps heat in until it gets out the exhaust.
Larry McFarland
601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
From: owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron hansen
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:51 PM
Subject: [Probable Spam] Fwd: Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling
problem
Thanks, Larry.
I think I have the mixture problem solved. Ram did a dyno test and measured
exhaust components and said they were good. 101 measured HP was also nice.
After repairing the broken valve seat and other damage that caused, Ron Carr
at Ram dynoed the engine first with the timing per Stratus specs and only
got 83HP. Then he changed (advanced) the timing to his specs and it came up
to 101HP. Now it runs stronger, cooler, and burns less gas.
I haven't thought about prop setting. I have the same Warp 3 blade set to
12.5 degrees relative to the prop hub, not the horizon. Is that how your
pitch is measured? I get 4875 RPM on early takeoff roll. I can't hold
brakes at full throttle. What takeoff RPM are you getting at 17.5 degrees?
Climb is great even at max GW of 1320#. I still don't quite get to 5300 RPM
in any flight regime other than a descent so I figured I was about right.
I've tested lower and higher pitches, but not since the rebuild that added
so much HP. I can certainly play with prop pitch again and see what
happens. Although I think I will probably need a major rebuild of the
radiator, before I do that I may do things like prop pitch, lower the
antifreeze component from 50% to 25%, and try "Water Wetter" which seems to
have sound followers that say it works and few downsides that I've seen.
I see your radiator is moved well back vs. the Zenith plans. Do you know
how much that helped the cooling and are you still making the glass intake
to sell? The rest seems fairly straight forward. I built from scratch so
although I was hoping to avoid another major change and just fly, I can do
the work if needed.
Thanks again for the help,
Ron
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Larry McFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Subject: RE: [Probable Spam] Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling
problem
HI Ron,
The cooling issue is very common, but coolant temps should never see more
than 200 on a hot day in a perpetual climb. My cowl opening just ahead of
the oil pan for some reason cools better in a climb than going fast flat and
level. As you've done the jetting, you might consider the propeller pitch.
My Warp Drive 70-inch 3 blade set for 17-1/2 degrees per their instrument
does a much better job of cooling flat out at or near
120 mph. The pitch allows lower rpms, better speed. I trim nose down
carefully to get best speed by setting rpms to 4300 for best fuel burn until
the rate of climb gage indicates level flight. You feel the center of lift
move slightly back on the wing and get optimum cooling this way too. Odd, I
flew for a year or more before realizing that trimming in the last bit of
down elevator at a cruise rpm would increase performance and cooling so
much. Used to also worry that the nose was always slightly up before
discovering this.
I seldom fly flat out as there's no way to justify the fuel burn and engine
wear at 5000 rpm.
Note the links show the hole in front of the oil pan and heat from the
exhaust pipes is fed cool air either side of the cowl looking straight in
at aluminum sleeve clearance aluminum. They made a significant difference.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601ezclosefrtrt.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowelfrtlower.gif
Hope this helps,
Fly safe
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
From: owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron hansen
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 5:53 PM
Subject: [Probable Spam] Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling
problem
Hi listers,
I've been quiet a long time due to life interfering with my plans, but I
need some help. I had about 60 hours on my 601HDS with a Stratus on it. I
was fighting temp. issues from the start, adjusting the carb jets and such.
I had Ram modify the heads before it flew. Anyway, I never went past the
Stratus 230 deg. "water temp" redline, but often approached it. Taxiing in
after 60 flight hours I broke a valve seat and later learned broke a piston.
I have not been pleased with Stratus support for years so I had Ram
Performance rebuild the engine. He also made some other changes and it now
runs stronger and cooler, but still not cool enough. I moved the "water
temp" probe from the Stratus setup in the cylinder head dry-hole to actual
water as it comes out of the engine. Ram says water temp redline should be
220 deg. and the engine should run at the thermostat setting of 190 deg.
Research I've done would indicate the same for long engine life.
Anyway, I still get water temp climbing to 220 a few minutes after takeoff
on a warm day and I suspect it would go higher. My radiator is the stock
Zenair radiator installed per plans. Gaps are sealed. Coolant is 50/50 per
instructions. I'm beginning to think the Zenith setup is not suitable for a
100HP engine that is water cooled. The Rotax they designed it for only uses
water to cool the heads.
I don't want to ruin my new Ram-rebuilt engine. It is running really well:
stronger, cooler, lower fuel burn......but it's not running at the temps it
should do to a weak cooling system. If anyone has data or ideas that would
help I would appreciate hearing from you. I recall all sorts of discussion
from years past (this plane took me many years to build from plans), but I
can't remember where all those ideas ended up. I know some were abandoned,
but others probably solved some or all of the problem. I've gone through
the archives, but you never know if you're missing something important that
came later.
Thanks,
Ron Hansen
Los Angeles
601HDS, Ram-Rebuilt (formerly Stratus) Subaru EA81
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling |
problem
Excellent info. Thanks again, Larry.
I measure prop pitch off the prop hub now because my engine settled a bit i
n
the mounts in early testing and I wanted to remove that variable. I altere
d
my motor mount (lower port-side hole was frankly not quite right from
Zenith) while Ram was rebuilding the engine and it's less prone to any
settling now. I have the Warp Drive device and also find it easy to be
accurate with, but thanks for the offer. Your prop pitch would be 15.5
degrees relative to the hub. I'm at 12.5 now. I've been to 15 or 16
relative to the hub in testing but did that before I was getting full power
from the engine. (Probably 83HP vs. the 101 HP after Ram rebuild.) I need
to test higher pitches again. At the time, that high a pitch gave me slowe
r
climb and cruise due to low RPMs. 18 more HP will make a difference in the
results. I have great climb right now. I went from 1000' density altitude
to 9000' density altitude in 9 minutes at 1,120# GW a week ago. I would
give some of that up for higher cruise and especially for lower engine
temperatures.
I have wrapped the exhaust pipes. I have cowl bump outs for the pipes
similar to yours, though not lined with aluminum, but have not cut holes in
the front like you have.
I'll have to look at my CG situation if I move the radiator. I'm real happ
y
with it now as I can't go out of CG range without overloading a station, bu
t
I have a BRS parachute in the cargo deck that offsets the Subaru nicely.
Would the glass intake fit if I don't move the radiator? I'm thinking the
nose strut or muffler would cause a problem. Moving the rad back less than
you did might solve the clearance issue without messing up the CG, but
that's a new experiment and might move it into a worse pressure area. Too
much "experimental" in experimental aviation sometimes, but I really
appreciate the help sorting this out. I love flying the plane.
Ron
On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 7:27 AM, Larry McFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>wro
te:
> Ron,****
>
> I use a gage that Warp Drive makes for setting the pitch. It=92s accurate
to
> half a degree and you should have one. I have a spare one if you want it
.
> Send me your address and I=92ll mail it to you. ****
>
> My pitch is based from the top longeron, not the propeller center line.
> The gage is set by presetting the desired degrees, clamping the gage on t
he
> end of the prop and adjusting the blade to get the bubble level on the
> gage. (Very accurate & consistent) Just add or subtract the difference
> from level on the longeron. My longeron are 2 degrees nose up (tri-gear)
> and pitch has to be adjusted for that to get level flight.****
>
> I=92ve not made any radiator intakes for a while, so I pitched the mold.
I
> still have the form for the intake and could make a new mold if you want
> one. I couldn=92t do one until sometime after Oshkosh. I have to get $2
00.00
> for the intake as it represents two full days work plus materials. It do
es
> eliminate turbulence at the radiator opening and provide better flow on t
he
> negative side of the louvers which results in better cooling by 7 degrees
or
> more plus the 5 you get with the louvers. The radiator is set behind the
> firewall 32 inches and I=92ve flown with it both up front and back where
it is
> now. The CG is better with it back there owing to the weight of the Suba
ru.
> I like the look of it as well. Study the radiator construct on my engine
> page for minor changes you would need and let me know if you want an inta
ke.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Other thing that helps get rid of engine temps is exhaust wrap. Not so ha
rd
> to do, but it keeps heat in until it gets out the exhaust. ****
>
> Larry McFarland****
>
> 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *ron hansen
> *Sent:* Monday, June 27, 2011 11:51 PM
>
> *To:* stratus-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* [Probable Spam] Fwd: Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram
> cooling problem****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks, Larry.
>
> I think I have the mixture problem solved. Ram did a dyno test and
> measured exhaust components and said they were good. 101 measured HP was
> also nice. After repairing the broken valve seat and other damage that
> caused, Ron Carr at Ram dynoed the engine first with the timing per Strat
us
> specs and only got 83HP. Then he changed (advanced) the timing to his sp
ecs
> and it came up to 101HP. Now it runs stronger, cooler, and burns less ga
s.
>
> I haven't thought about prop setting. I have the same Warp 3 blade set t
o
> 12.5 degrees relative to the prop hub, not the horizon. Is that how your
> pitch is measured? I get 4875 RPM on early takeoff roll. I can't hold
> brakes at full throttle. What takeoff RPM are you getting at 17.5 degree
s?
> Climb is great even at max GW of 1320#. I still don't quite get to 5300
RPM
> in any flight regime other than a descent so I figured I was about right.
> I've tested lower and higher pitches, but not since the rebuild that adde
d
> so much HP. I can certainly play with prop pitch again and see what
> happens. Although I think I will probably need a major rebuild of the
> radiator, before I do that I may do things like prop pitch, lower the
> antifreeze component from 50% to 25%, and try "Water Wetter" which seems
to
> have sound followers that say it works and few downsides that I've seen.
>
> I see your radiator is moved well back vs. the Zenith plans. Do you know
> how much that helped the cooling and are you still making the glass intak
e
> to sell? The rest seems fairly straight forward. I built from scratch s
o
> although I was hoping to avoid another major change and just fly, I can d
o
> the work if needed.
>
> Thanks again for the help,
>
> Ron****
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Larry McFarland* <larry@macsmachine.com>
> Date: Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 6:41 PM
> Subject: RE: [Probable Spam] Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooli
ng
> problem
> To: stratus-list@matronics.com
>
> ****
>
> HI Ron,****
>
> The cooling issue is very common, but coolant temps should never see more
> than 200 on a hot day in a perpetual climb. My cowl opening just ahead o
f
> the oil pan for some reason cools better in a climb than going fast flat
and
> level. As you=92ve done the jetting, you might consider the propeller
> pitch. My Warp Drive 70-inch 3 blade set for 17-1/2 degrees per their
> instrument does a much better job of cooling flat out at or near****
>
> 120 mph. The pitch allows lower rpms, better speed. I trim nose down
> carefully to get best speed by setting rpms to 4300 for best fuel burn un
til
> the rate of climb gage indicates level flight. You feel the center of li
ft
> move slightly back on the wing and get optimum cooling this way too. Odd
, I
> flew for a year or more before realizing that trimming in the last bit of
> down elevator at a cruise rpm would increase performance and cooling so
> much. Used to also worry that the nose was always slightly up before
> discovering this.****
>
> I seldom fly flat out as there=92s no way to justify the fuel burn and en
gine
> wear at 5000 rpm.****
>
> Note the links show the hole in front of the oil pan and heat from the
> exhaust pipes is fed cool air either side of the cowl looking straight in
*
> ***
>
> at aluminum sleeve clearance aluminum. They made a significant differenc
e.
> ****
>
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601ezclosefrtrt.gif****
>
> http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowelfrtlower.gif****
>
> Hope this helps,****
>
> Fly safe****
>
> ****
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> ****
>
> *From:* owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *ron hansen
> *Sent:* Monday, June 27, 2011 5:53 PM
> *To:* stratus-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* [Probable Spam] Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling
> problem****
>
> ****
>
> Hi listers,
>
> I've been quiet a long time due to life interfering with my plans, but I
> need some help. I had about 60 hours on my 601HDS with a Stratus on it.
I
> was fighting temp. issues from the start, adjusting the carb jets and suc
h.
> I had Ram modify the heads before it flew. Anyway, I never went past the
> Stratus 230 deg. "water temp" redline, but often approached it. Taxiing
in
> after 60 flight hours I broke a valve seat and later learned broke a
> piston. I have not been pleased with Stratus support for years so I had
Ram
> Performance rebuild the engine. He also made some other changes and it n
ow
> runs stronger and cooler, but still not cool enough. I moved the "water
> temp" probe from the Stratus setup in the cylinder head dry-hole to actua
l
> water as it comes out of the engine. Ram says water temp redline should
be
> 220 deg. and the engine should run at the thermostat setting of 190 deg.
> Research I've done would indicate the same for long engine life.
>
> Anyway, I still get water temp climbing to 220 a few minutes after takeof
f
> on a warm day and I suspect it would go higher. My radiator is the stock
> Zenair radiator installed per plans. Gaps are sealed. Coolant is 50/50
per
> instructions. I'm beginning to think the Zenith setup is not suitable fo
r a
> 100HP engine that is water cooled. The Rotax they designed it for only u
ses
> water to cool the heads.
>
> I don't want to ruin my new Ram-rebuilt engine. It is running really wel
l:
> stronger, cooler, lower fuel burn......but it's not running at the temps
it
> should do to a weak cooling system. If anyone has data or ideas that wou
ld
> help I would appreciate hearing from you. I recall all sorts of discussi
on
> from years past (this plane took me many years to build from plans), but
I
> can't remember where all those ideas ended up. I know some were abandone
d,
> but others probably solved some or all of the problem. I've gone through
> the archives, but you never know if you're missing something important th
at
> came later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Hansen
> Los Angeles
> 601HDS, Ram-Rebuilt (formerly Stratus) Subaru EA81****
>
> * *****
>
> * *****
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List*****
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*****
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*****
>
> * *****
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem |
Ron,
I fly A 601HD with a status Suburu. My engine temperature runs at 190
with an occasional 200 on long hot climbouts. I think that a lot of the
problems builders have had with this engine is due to high temperatures.
I spent 1 year designing my cooling system and gave a couple of seminars
at OSH about cooling systems design. I don't know if that stock design
can ever give really good results.My system looks somewhat "radical" and
is not easily adapted to a finished aircraft. The problem is that the
stock system has no ducting of pressure recover, plus the fact that
exhaust and engine heat go into the radiator. Various idea expressed in
this forum can help, but the root cause is an inadequate design
Tim Shankland
----- Original Message -----
From: ron hansen
To: stratus-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 3:53 PM
Subject: Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem
Hi listers,
I've been quiet a long time due to life interfering with my plans, but
I need some help. I had about 60 hours on my 601HDS with a Stratus on
it. I was fighting temp. issues from the start, adjusting the carb jets
and such. I had Ram modify the heads before it flew. Anyway, I never
went past the Stratus 230 deg. "water temp" redline, but often
approached it. Taxiing in after 60 flight hours I broke a valve seat
and later learned broke a piston. I have not been pleased with Stratus
support for years so I had Ram Performance rebuild the engine. He also
made some other changes and it now runs stronger and cooler, but still
not cool enough. I moved the "water temp" probe from the Stratus setup
in the cylinder head dry-hole to actual water as it comes out of the
engine. Ram says water temp redline should be 220 deg. and the engine
should run at the thermostat setting of 190 deg. Research I've done
would indicate the same for long engine life.
Anyway, I still get water temp climbing to 220 a few minutes after
takeoff on a warm day and I suspect it would go higher. My radiator is
the stock Zenair radiator installed per plans. Gaps are sealed.
Coolant is 50/50 per instructions. I'm beginning to think the Zenith
setup is not suitable for a 100HP engine that is water cooled. The
Rotax they designed it for only uses water to cool the heads.
I don't want to ruin my new Ram-rebuilt engine. It is running really
well: stronger, cooler, lower fuel burn......but it's not running at the
temps it should do to a weak cooling system. If anyone has data or
ideas that would help I would appreciate hearing from you. I recall all
sorts of discussion from years past (this plane took me many years to
build from plans), but I can't remember where all those ideas ended up.
I know some were abandoned, but others probably solved some or all of
the problem. I've gone through the archives, but you never know if
you're missing something important that came later.
Thanks,
Ron Hansen
Los Angeles
601HDS, Ram-Rebuilt (formerly Stratus) Subaru EA81
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| Subject: | Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling |
problem
Ron,
If you use my intake, you=92d have to add a strip each side to get an
additional =BD-inch or so open at the front end. The mouth of the
intake is
made to reduce the area, get better cooling with a stable airflow and
deflect the air going around the bottom to effect a better negative
pressure
back at the louvers. This effectively zeros out the drag at the front
end,
not completely, but it helps a lot. The inch from the fuselage to the
intake is dead air, sometimes moving in the same direction as the plane,
so
the intake needs no better streamlining there.
The engine page on my site shows what=92s needed to put the radiator
correct
with the intake. I have a guidance sheet that pretty much summarizes the
process.
The aluminum in my lower cowl which clears the pipes from the
fiberglass
replaced the fiberglass as I was burning up the fiberglass before the
pipes
were wrapped and the front opens blow some of the heat from around the
exhaust pipes.
The position front to rear had no appreciable change for engine temps
one
way or another. Guess I should have said that first.
With a header and wing tanks, the rear position radiator keeps my CG in
touch all the way to 1300 lbs. no matter how it=92s loaded.
Try getting to the airspeed you=92re after, level flight, then
tap-adjust the
trim down and watch the plane speed up, loose a little altitude and
recover
to a bit more airspeed, better cooling. I=92ve teased another 5 mph out
of
the 4300 rpm with such adjustments. Flat out doesn=92t improve, but
lower
rpms do.
I=92ve attached several files that will describe the radiator and
install
better than I can here.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
From: owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron hansen
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Probable Spam] Fwd: Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram
cooling problem
Excellent info. Thanks again, Larry.
I measure prop pitch off the prop hub now because my engine settled a
bit in
the mounts in early testing and I wanted to remove that variable. I
altered
my motor mount (lower port-side hole was frankly not quite right from
Zenith) while Ram was rebuilding the engine and it's less prone to any
settling now. I have the Warp Drive device and also find it easy to be
accurate with, but thanks for the offer. Your prop pitch would be 15.5
degrees relative to the hub. I'm at 12.5 now. I've been to 15 or 16
relative to the hub in testing but did that before I was getting full
power
from the engine. (Probably 83HP vs. the 101 HP after Ram rebuild.) I
need
to test higher pitches again. At the time, that high a pitch gave me
slower
climb and cruise due to low RPMs. 18 more HP will make a difference in
the
results. I have great climb right now. I went from 1000' density
altitude
to 9000' density altitude in 9 minutes at 1,120# GW a week ago. I would
give some of that up for higher cruise and especially for lower engine
temperatures.
I have wrapped the exhaust pipes. I have cowl bump outs for the pipes
similar to yours, though not lined with aluminum, but have not cut holes
in
the front like you have.
I'll have to look at my CG situation if I move the radiator. I'm real
happy
with it now as I can't go out of CG range without overloading a station,
but
I have a BRS parachute in the cargo deck that offsets the Subaru nicely.
Would the glass intake fit if I don't move the radiator? I'm thinking
the
nose strut or muffler would cause a problem. Moving the rad back less
than
you did might solve the clearance issue without messing up the CG, but
that's a new experiment and might move it into a worse pressure area.
Too
much "experimental" in experimental aviation sometimes, but I really
appreciate the help sorting this out. I love flying the plane.
Ron
On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 7:27 AM, Larry McFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
wrote:
Ron,
I use a gage that Warp Drive makes for setting the pitch. It=92s
accurate to
half a degree and you should have one. I have a spare one if you want
it.
Send me your address and I=92ll mail it to you.
My pitch is based from the top longeron, not the propeller center line.
The
gage is set by presetting the desired degrees, clamping the gage on the
end
of the prop and adjusting the blade to get the bubble level on the gage.
(Very accurate & consistent) Just add or subtract the difference from
level
on the longeron. My longeron are 2 degrees nose up (tri-gear) and pitch
has
to be adjusted for that to get level flight.
I=92ve not made any radiator intakes for a while, so I pitched the mold.
I
still have the form for the intake and could make a new mold if you want
one. I couldn=92t do one until sometime after Oshkosh. I have to get
$200.00
for the intake as it represents two full days work plus materials. It
does
eliminate turbulence at the radiator opening and provide better flow on
the
negative side of the louvers which results in better cooling by 7
degrees or
more plus the 5 you get with the louvers. The radiator is set behind
the
firewall 32 inches and I=92ve flown with it both up front and back where
it is
now. The CG is better with it back there owing to the weight of the
Subaru.
I like the look of it as well. Study the radiator construct on my
engine
page for minor changes you would need and let me know if you want an
intake.
Other thing that helps get rid of engine temps is exhaust wrap. Not so
hard
to do, but it keeps heat in until it gets out the exhaust.
Larry McFarland
601HDS at www.macsmachine.com <http://www.macsmachine.com/>
From: owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron hansen
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:51 PM
Subject: [Probable Spam] Fwd: Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram
cooling
problem
Thanks, Larry.
I think I have the mixture problem solved. Ram did a dyno test and
measured
exhaust components and said they were good. 101 measured HP was also
nice.
After repairing the broken valve seat and other damage that caused, Ron
Carr
at Ram dynoed the engine first with the timing per Stratus specs and
only
got 83HP. Then he changed (advanced) the timing to his specs and it
came up
to 101HP. Now it runs stronger, cooler, and burns less gas.
I haven't thought about prop setting. I have the same Warp 3 blade set
to
12.5 degrees relative to the prop hub, not the horizon. Is that how
your
pitch is measured? I get 4875 RPM on early takeoff roll. I can't hold
brakes at full throttle. What takeoff RPM are you getting at 17.5
degrees?
Climb is great even at max GW of 1320#. I still don't quite get to 5300
RPM
in any flight regime other than a descent so I figured I was about
right.
I've tested lower and higher pitches, but not since the rebuild that
added
so much HP. I can certainly play with prop pitch again and see what
happens. Although I think I will probably need a major rebuild of the
radiator, before I do that I may do things like prop pitch, lower the
antifreeze component from 50% to 25%, and try "Water Wetter" which seems
to
have sound followers that say it works and few downsides that I've seen.
I see your radiator is moved well back vs. the Zenith plans. Do you
know
how much that helped the cooling and are you still making the glass
intake
to sell? The rest seems fairly straight forward. I built from scratch
so
although I was hoping to avoid another major change and just fly, I can
do
the work if needed.
Thanks again for the help,
Ron
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Larry McFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Subject: RE: [Probable Spam] Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram
cooling
problem
HI Ron,
The cooling issue is very common, but coolant temps should never see
more
than 200 on a hot day in a perpetual climb. My cowl opening just ahead
of
the oil pan for some reason cools better in a climb than going fast flat
and
level. As you=92ve done the jetting, you might consider the propeller
pitch.
My Warp Drive 70-inch 3 blade set for 17-1/2 degrees per their
instrument
does a much better job of cooling flat out at or near
120 mph. The pitch allows lower rpms, better speed. I trim nose down
carefully to get best speed by setting rpms to 4300 for best fuel burn
until
the rate of climb gage indicates level flight. You feel the center of
lift
move slightly back on the wing and get optimum cooling this way too.
Odd, I
flew for a year or more before realizing that trimming in the last bit
of
down elevator at a cruise rpm would increase performance and cooling so
much. Used to also worry that the nose was always slightly up before
discovering this.
I seldom fly flat out as there=92s no way to justify the fuel burn and
engine
wear at 5000 rpm.
Note the links show the hole in front of the oil pan and heat from the
exhaust pipes is fed cool air either side of the cowl looking straight
in
at aluminum sleeve clearance aluminum. They made a significant
difference.
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601ezclosefrtrt.gif
http://www.macsmachine.com/images/cowling/full/cowelfrtlower.gif
Hope this helps,
Fly safe
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
<http://www.macsmachine.com/>
From: owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ron hansen
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 5:53 PM
Subject: [Probable Spam] Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling
problem
Hi listers,
I've been quiet a long time due to life interfering with my plans, but I
need some help. I had about 60 hours on my 601HDS with a Stratus on it.
I
was fighting temp. issues from the start, adjusting the carb jets and
such.
I had Ram modify the heads before it flew. Anyway, I never went past
the
Stratus 230 deg. "water temp" redline, but often approached it. Taxiing
in
after 60 flight hours I broke a valve seat and later learned broke a
piston.
I have not been pleased with Stratus support for years so I had Ram
Performance rebuild the engine. He also made some other changes and it
now
runs stronger and cooler, but still not cool enough. I moved the "water
temp" probe from the Stratus setup in the cylinder head dry-hole to
actual
water as it comes out of the engine. Ram says water temp redline should
be
220 deg. and the engine should run at the thermostat setting of 190 deg.
Research I've done would indicate the same for long engine life.
Anyway, I still get water temp climbing to 220 a few minutes after
takeoff
on a warm day and I suspect it would go higher. My radiator is the
stock
Zenair radiator installed per plans. Gaps are sealed. Coolant is 50/50
per
instructions. I'm beginning to think the Zenith setup is not suitable
for a
100HP engine that is water cooled. The Rotax they designed it for only
uses
water to cool the heads.
I don't want to ruin my new Ram-rebuilt engine. It is running really
well:
stronger, cooler, lower fuel burn......but it's not running at the temps
it
should do to a weak cooling system. If anyone has data or ideas that
would
help I would appreciate hearing from you. I recall all sorts of
discussion
from years past (this plane took me many years to build from plans), but
I
can't remember where all those ideas ended up. I know some were
abandoned,
but others probably solved some or all of the problem. I've gone
through
the archives, but you never know if you're missing something important
that
came later.
Thanks,
Ron Hansen
Los Angeles
601HDS, Ram-Rebuilt (formerly Stratus) Subaru EA81
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List
tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List
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http://www.matronics.com/contribution
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem |
Can the plastic nubs that stick up from the Zenith 601 radiator (VW Rabbit
part if I recall) be cut off without making a hole in the radiator or
weakening it? These are the aprox. 1/2" dia. by 1/2" tall cylindrical posts
with a hole in the center, two on the top, two on the bottom of both ends of
the radiator. They probably don't disturb the air into the radiator a lot,
but I'd sure like to saw them off.
Thanks,
Ron
On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:53 PM, ron hansen <ronhansen123@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi listers,
>
> I've been quiet a long time due to life interfering with my plans, but I
> need some help. I had about 60 hours on my 601HDS with a Stratus on it. I
> was fighting temp. issues from the start, adjusting the carb jets and such.
> I had Ram modify the heads before it flew. Anyway, I never went past the
> Stratus 230 deg. "water temp" redline, but often approached it. Taxiing in
> after 60 flight hours I broke a valve seat and later learned broke a
> piston. I have not been pleased with Stratus support for years so I had Ram
> Performance rebuild the engine. He also made some other changes and it now
> runs stronger and cooler, but still not cool enough. I moved the "water
> temp" probe from the Stratus setup in the cylinder head dry-hole to actual
> water as it comes out of the engine. Ram says water temp redline should be
> 220 deg. and the engine should run at the thermostat setting of 190 deg.
> Research I've done would indicate the same for long engine life.
>
> Anyway, I still get water temp climbing to 220 a few minutes after takeoff
> on a warm day and I suspect it would go higher. My radiator is the stock
> Zenair radiator installed per plans. Gaps are sealed. Coolant is 50/50 per
> instructions. I'm beginning to think the Zenith setup is not suitable for a
> 100HP engine that is water cooled. The Rotax they designed it for only uses
> water to cool the heads.
>
> I don't want to ruin my new Ram-rebuilt engine. It is running really well:
> stronger, cooler, lower fuel burn......but it's not running at the temps it
> should do to a weak cooling system. If anyone has data or ideas that would
> help I would appreciate hearing from you. I recall all sorts of discussion
> from years past (this plane took me many years to build from plans), but I
> can't remember where all those ideas ended up. I know some were abandoned,
> but others probably solved some or all of the problem. I've gone through
> the archives, but you never know if you're missing something important that
> came later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Hansen
> Los Angeles
> 601HDS, Ram-Rebuilt (formerly Stratus) Subaru EA81
>
Message 7
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|
| Subject: | Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem |
Ron,
I feel your pain and would be interested in any responses you get. I've
been flying my STRATUS powered AVID for two weeks today and I am having the
same cooling problems you are having. What size is your radiator?
Andy F.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of ron hansen
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 5:53 PM
To: stratus-list@matronics.com
Subject: Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem
Hi listers,
I've been quiet a long time due to life interfering with my plans, but I
need some help. I had about 60 hours on my 601HDS with a Stratus on it. I
was fighting temp. issues from the start, adjusting the carb jets and such.
I had Ram modify the heads before it flew. Anyway, I never went past the
Stratus 230 deg. "water temp" redline, but often approached it. Taxiing in
after 60 flight hours I broke a valve seat and later learned broke a piston.
I have not been pleased with Stratus support for years so I had Ram
Performance rebuild the engine. He also made some other changes and it now
runs stronger and cooler, but still not cool enough. I moved the "water
temp" probe from the Stratus setup in the cylinder head dry-hole to actual
water as it comes out of the engine. Ram says water temp redline should be
220 deg. and the engine should run at the thermostat setting of 190 deg.
Research I've done would indicate the same for long engine life.
Anyway, I still get water temp climbing to 220 a few minutes after takeoff
on a warm day and I suspect it would go higher. My radiator is the stock
Zenair radiator installed per plans. Gaps are sealed. Coolant is 50/50 per
instructions. I'm beginning to think the Zenith setup is not suitable for a
100HP engine that is water cooled. The Rotax they designed it for only uses
water to cool the heads.
I don't want to ruin my new Ram-rebuilt engine. It is running really
well: stronger, cooler, lower fuel burn......but it's not running at the
temps it should do to a weak cooling system. If anyone has data or ideas
that would help I would appreciate hearing from you. I recall all sorts of
discussion from years past (this plane took me many years to build from
plans), but I can't remember where all those ideas ended up. I know some
were abandoned, but others probably solved some or all of the problem. I've
gone through the archives, but you never know if you're missing something
important that came later.
Thanks,
Ron Hansen
Los Angeles
601HDS, Ram-Rebuilt (formerly Stratus) Subaru EA81
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Re: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem |
My radiator core is aprx. 12" wide x 19" long x 1.5" thick. It's a single
layer radiator. I'm looking at the Zenair installation design and
referencing a book called "Cooling Your Wankel" that I just bought from
Aircraft Spruce. Most of it applies to any water-cooled aircraft engine
installation, though some is Wankel specific. I think I can improve
efficiency by adhering to some design concepts in the book better than
Zenair did. I'll be doing some mods and testing this weekend if the
weather's good and will post results.
Ron
On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Andy Fultz <andynfultz@bellsouth.net>wrote:
> **
> Ron,
>
> I feel your pain and would be interested in any responses you get. I've
> been flying my STRATUS powered AVID for two weeks today and I am having the
> same cooling problems you are having. What size is your radiator?
>
> Andy F.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-stratus-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *ron hansen
> *Sent:* Monday, June 27, 2011 5:53 PM
> *To:* stratus-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Stratus-List: Zenair601HDS Stratus/Ram cooling problem
>
> Hi listers,
>
> I've been quiet a long time due to life interfering with my plans, but I
> need some help. I had about 60 hours on my 601HDS with a Stratus on it. I
> was fighting temp. issues from the start, adjusting the carb jets and such.
> I had Ram modify the heads before it flew. Anyway, I never went past the
> Stratus 230 deg. "water temp" redline, but often approached it. Taxiing in
> after 60 flight hours I broke a valve seat and later learned broke a
> piston. I have not been pleased with Stratus support for years so I had Ram
> Performance rebuild the engine. He also made some other changes and it now
> runs stronger and cooler, but still not cool enough. I moved the "water
> temp" probe from the Stratus setup in the cylinder head dry-hole to actual
> water as it comes out of the engine. Ram says water temp redline should be
> 220 deg. and the engine should run at the thermostat setting of 190 deg.
> Research I've done would indicate the same for long engine life.
>
> Anyway, I still get water temp climbing to 220 a few minutes after takeoff
> on a warm day and I suspect it would go higher. My radiator is the stock
> Zenair radiator installed per plans. Gaps are sealed. Coolant is 50/50 per
> instructions. I'm beginning to think the Zenith setup is not suitable for a
> 100HP engine that is water cooled. The Rotax they designed it for only uses
> water to cool the heads.
>
> I don't want to ruin my new Ram-rebuilt engine. It is running really well:
> stronger, cooler, lower fuel burn......but it's not running at the temps it
> should do to a weak cooling system. If anyone has data or ideas that would
> help I would appreciate hearing from you. I recall all sorts of discussion
> from years past (this plane took me many years to build from plans), but I
> can't remember where all those ideas ended up. I know some were abandoned,
> but others probably solved some or all of the problem. I've gone through
> the archives, but you never know if you're missing something important that
> came later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron Hansen
> Los Angeles
> 601HDS, Ram-Rebuilt (formerly Stratus) Subaru EA81
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Stratus-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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