---------------------------------------------------------- Tailwind-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/08/02: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:14 PM - Re: Panel again... (William Bernard) 2. 04:12 PM - Re: Panel again... (Jerry Hey) 3. 04:20 PM - Re: Panel again... (Richard Lamb) 4. 04:45 PM - Re: Panel again... (Richard Lamb) 5. 05:24 PM - Re: Panel again... (Jerry Hey) 6. 05:43 PM - Re: Panel again... (Jim and Donna Clement) 7. 05:46 PM - Re: Panel again... (Jim and Donna Clement) 8. 08:31 PM - Re: Panel again... (Richard Lamb) 9. 08:52 PM - Re: Panel again... (Jim and Donna Clement) 10. 08:56 PM - Re: Panel again... (Richard Lamb) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:47 PM PST US From: "William Bernard" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "William Bernard" Richard, there's another consideration about not running 'stuff' through the tank. If the tank must ever be removed for some reason, it's a lot easier if there's nothing going through it. Been there.....done that! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Lamb" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > Smart-ellick answer is I'm a card carrying coward. > > Truth is I've already been in a couple of aircraft > fires. Ok, helicopters, but it was still fire. > My right hand is mostly burn scar tissue. > Nice big burn scar on my right shoulder. > They make a lasting impression. > > Putting a tube fore/aft in the middle of the tank > seems like it would create a hard spot right in the > middle of the very flexible skins of the tank. > Perfect recipe for metal fatigue, cracks and leaks. > > Maybe it wouldn't actually turn out that way, but > it really is a serious issue with me. I want to feel > comfortable and confident in it. Not constantly worried. > That's no way to have fun! > > You see, Fred, for me, just climbing in an airplane > shows amazing courage - and no brains at all. > > Having sat in the thing for a few hours trying out all > the various possibilities, the center throttle seems like > the best compromise. I already have verniers for throttle > and mixture. > > I've flown left handed. I'm (a lot!) smoother with the right, > but in a few hours it will all feel perfectly natural. > > > Fred Weaver wrote: > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Fred Weaver > > > > You're so funny..... If you would just put a tube thru the tank, you > > could put Throttle, Mixture and Carb heat thru it and they would work > > Smoothly.... come on Richard, what's keeping you from doing it? > > :) Weav > > On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 10:26 PM, Richard Lamb wrote: > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > > > > After spending some time in the cockpit, > > > (close the hanger doors so no one will see!) > > > I'm about ready to admit that Steve knew what he was doing. > > > > > > I have the panel design printed full size and mounted in the plane. > > > (Ancient Epson FX-100 can do that where "modern" printers can't > > > without a lot of cutting and pasting) > > > > > > Gives me a chance to see how the arrangement works - and where it > > > doesn't - before cutting metal! > > > > > > A single throttle lever on the left is a very simple deal, > > > but, as pointed out by several, you can't easily reach it from the > > > right seat. > > > > > > Putting a vernier on the left side is even worse. It feels very > > > ackward. Hard to be smooth with it, and it's too close to the > > > door and window. > > > > > > With the the panel mock-up in the plane, I noticed that it might be > > > possible to put verniers right under the radios and still run the > > > cables over the tank (!). It still feels a little high, but fairly > > > comfortable. > > > > > > So, back to the drawing board to move things around enough to make > > > that happen. I lost one gauge from the panel. Looks like the gas > > > gauge will be a mechanical mounted on the tank (per plans no less). > > > > > > The panel layout is a bit less "clean" looking, but there is room for > > > everything on it and it looks like it will work well. > > > > > > http://home.flash.net/~lamb01/p-k6v3c.jpg > > > > > > (I hope I got that right this time) > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:21 PM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey >--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > >Smart-ellick answer is I'm a card carrying coward. > >Truth is I've already been in a couple of aircraft >fires. Ok, helicopters, but it was still fire. >My right hand is mostly burn scar tissue. >Nice big burn scar on my right shoulder. >They make a lasting impression. > >Putting a tube fore/aft in the middle of the tank >seems like it would create a hard spot right in the >middle of the very flexible skins of the tank. >Perfect recipe for metal fatigue, cracks and leaks. > >Maybe it wouldn't actually turn out that way, but >it really is a serious issue with me. I want to feel >comfortable and confident in it. Not constantly worried. >That's no way to have fun! > >You see, Fred, for me, just climbing in an airplane >shows amazing courage - and no brains at all. > >Having sat in the thing for a few hours trying out all >the various possibilities, the center throttle seems like >the best compromise. I already have verniers for throttle >and mixture. > >I've flown left handed. I'm (a lot!) smoother with the right, >but in a few hours it will all feel perfectly natural. > Richard, I think your tank should have a baffle installed already to control movement. If not, it will flex at the end welds. Same problem you are trying to avoid. The tube would add additional stiffness. That is good, I think. Note, I have never built a TW tank. Jerry -- Jerry Hey Tailwind & Rotary Engine Support http://www.j-winddesigns.com mailto:j-winddesigns@thegrid.net ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:20:32 PM PST US From: Richard Lamb Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb Thanks Jim. Like I said, having sat in the mock-up for a while I've about come to agree with that high center location, although Rick's outboard lever setup has a lot of appeal. Changing horses midstream... My airframe has the support tubes for the instrument panel already installed per the plans. (sure is a tiny panel!) The bottom frame is jogged aft about 4 inches and might turn out to be an excellent hinge point for a fold down panel arrangement since the panle is another 3 or 4 inches aft of that point. But the top tube (for the top of the panel) is in my way. I'm ready to remove it, but wanted to ask if you thought it might be providing some necessary support for the corner of the door frame. That's where is attaches - right in the corner of the door frame. The straight cross tube is about 4 inches forward of the corner of the door. Do you thing maybe I should "Y" off a brace tube from the straight cross tube to the corner of the door frame? I haven't been able to decide if it's really necessary. I think not, but this is my first Tailwind, so I dunno... back to the fuel tank... I've had a couple of suggestions from professional aircraft tank builders about how to attach the weldiments. One was that welding the neck and things to the thin skin can cause a lot of distortion. The suggestion was to weld the neck to a heavier aluminum plate (.080 to .125?) and bolt that (with a little Proseal) to the tank using an inner ring with nutplates. Besides eliminating the weld distortion, this gives a removable access panel if the tank ever needs attention inside. A mechanicl sender could be mounted the same way and thus be easily accessible for maintenance without removing the tank. Just a thought... Jim and Donna Clement wrote: > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> > > Richard, my first TW had a fuel gauge in the tank and it was worthless. Go > with a low buck auto gauge and sender. Mount the sender in the top of the > tank and the gauge anywhere. The 2" gauges take up very little room. I think > if you mount your throttle, mixture and carb heat in the center you will > find that after a very short time it is the most convenient.Running the > controls over the top of the tank seems a little high at first but is ok > after a while and much easier. Bring the instrument panel back far enough > and the top part of the fuel tank forward enough to get the radios in > without notching the tank. I think about 12" will do. My panel is about 5-6" > back from the door post. Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Lamb" > To: "TW List" > Subject: Tailwind-List: Panel again... > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > > After spending some time in the cockpit, > > (close the hanger doors so no one will see!) > > I'm about ready to admit that Steve knew what he was doing. > > > > I have the panel design printed full size and mounted in the plane. > > (Ancient Epson FX-100 can do that where "modern" printers can't > > without a lot of cutting and pasting) > > > > Gives me a chance to see how the arrangement works - and where it > > doesn't - before cutting metal! > > > > A single throttle lever on the left is a very simple deal, > > but, as pointed out by several, you can't easily reach it from the > > right seat. > > > > Putting a vernier on the left side is even worse. It feels very > > ackward. Hard to be smooth with it, and it's too close to the > > door and window. > > > > With the the panel mock-up in the plane, I noticed that it might be > > possible to put verniers right under the radios and still run the > > cables over the tank (!). It still feels a little high, but fairly > > comfortable. > > > > So, back to the drawing board to move things around enough to make > > that happen. I lost one gauge from the panel. Looks like the gas > > gauge will be a mechanical mounted on the tank (per plans no less). > > > > The panel layout is a bit less "clean" looking, but there is room for > > everything on it and it looks like it will work well. > > > > http://home.flash.net/~lamb01/p-k6v3c.jpg > > > > (I hope I got that right this time) > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:33 PM PST US From: Richard Lamb Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb Right Jerry. The baffle is attached to bottom, front and back walls. THat spreads the load out quite a bit. My concern about the tunnel is that it would be a very localized stiffener. And oaclized stiffness is not so good... -break- Jerry, I saw the ad on you web site for the aileron/flap kit. That price is not too bad, but I already have plenty of sheet metal. Do you still offer the hinge componets and bushings seperately? Jerry Hey wrote: > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey > > >--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > >Smart-ellick answer is I'm a card carrying coward. > > > >Truth is I've already been in a couple of aircraft > >fires. Ok, helicopters, but it was still fire. > >My right hand is mostly burn scar tissue. > >Nice big burn scar on my right shoulder. > >They make a lasting impression. > > > >Putting a tube fore/aft in the middle of the tank > >seems like it would create a hard spot right in the > >middle of the very flexible skins of the tank. > >Perfect recipe for metal fatigue, cracks and leaks. > > > >Maybe it wouldn't actually turn out that way, but > >it really is a serious issue with me. I want to feel > >comfortable and confident in it. Not constantly worried. > >That's no way to have fun! > > > >You see, Fred, for me, just climbing in an airplane > >shows amazing courage - and no brains at all. > > > >Having sat in the thing for a few hours trying out all > >the various possibilities, the center throttle seems like > >the best compromise. I already have verniers for throttle > >and mixture. > > > >I've flown left handed. I'm (a lot!) smoother with the right, > >but in a few hours it will all feel perfectly natural. > > > Richard, I think your tank should have a baffle installed already > to control movement. If not, it will flex at the end welds. Same > problem you are trying to avoid. The tube would add additional > stiffness. That is good, I think. Note, I have never built a TW > tank. Jerry > -- > Jerry Hey > > Tailwind & Rotary Engine Support > > http://www.j-winddesigns.com > > mailto:j-winddesigns@thegrid.net > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:53 PM PST US From: Jerry Hey Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Jerry Hey >--> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > >Right Jerry. The baffle is attached to bottom, front and back walls. >THat spreads the load out quite a bit. > >My concern about the tunnel is that it would be a very localized >stiffener. And oaclized stiffness is not so good... > >-break- > >Jerry, I saw the ad on you web site for the aileron/flap kit. >That price is not too bad, but I already have plenty of sheet >metal. Do you still offer the hinge componets and bushings >seperately? > Yes, in fact that is all I want to do. A few guys have asked me do do the skins but I think it would be better to do them locally . -- Jerry Hey Tailwind & Rotary Engine Support http://www.j-winddesigns.com mailto:j-winddesigns@thegrid.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:02 PM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Remove both panel tubes and weld angle brackets onto the frontside of the front doorpost. They will extend in past the post about 1/2" and bend 90 degrees to the panel, the 5-6" panel side pieces will attach to these. The 1/2" side clearance is needed as the door opens it swings in some and will hit otherwise. .050 or heavier is ok for the panel, bend or rivet a 1/2" angle to the top and bottom. A brace can be bolted from the bottom angle to the cross tube behind the upper part of the fuel tank near the center of the tube. Weld the fuel neck directly to the tank, have never had cracking there and have stuck a tube in to bend for better alignment to the winshield after welding. To mount the fuel gauge sender, make a ring from .100-.125 aluminum, drill and tap for 10/32 screws and flush rivet the the inside of the sender hole. Make the hole in the ring as big as the gasket hole, it has to be big enough to get the sender cork and stuff through. Even if using the probe type sender make the hole big, my experiance with these is you will be changing them out later for the cork type as they are usually a problem. Almost all senders, auto or aircraft use the same bolt pattern but it is a staggered spacing so think ahead as to where the sender arm is going. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Lamb" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > Thanks Jim. > > Like I said, having sat in the mock-up for a while I've about > come to agree with that high center location, although Rick's > outboard lever setup has a lot of appeal. > > Changing horses midstream... > > My airframe has the support tubes for the instrument panel > already installed per the plans. (sure is a tiny panel!) > > The bottom frame is jogged aft about 4 inches and might turn out to be > an excellent hinge point for a fold down panel arrangement since the > panle is another 3 or 4 inches aft of that point. > > But the top tube (for the top of the panel) is in my way. > I'm ready to remove it, but wanted to ask if you thought > it might be providing some necessary support for the corner of the > door frame. That's where is attaches - right in the corner of the > door frame. The straight cross tube is about 4 inches forward > of the corner of the door. > > Do you thing maybe I should "Y" off a brace tube from the > straight cross tube to the corner of the door frame? > > I haven't been able to decide if it's really necessary. > I think not, but this is my first Tailwind, so I dunno... > > back to the fuel tank... > > I've had a couple of suggestions from professional aircraft tank > builders about how to attach the weldiments. One was that > welding the neck and things to the thin skin can cause a lot of > distortion. The suggestion was to weld the neck to a heavier > aluminum plate (.080 to .125?) and bolt that (with a little Proseal) > to the tank using an inner ring with nutplates. > > Besides eliminating the weld distortion, this gives a removable > access panel if the tank ever needs attention inside. > > A mechanicl sender could be mounted the same way and thus be easily > accessible for maintenance without removing the tank. > > Just a thought... > > > Jim and Donna Clement wrote: > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> > > > > Richard, my first TW had a fuel gauge in the tank and it was worthless. Go > > with a low buck auto gauge and sender. Mount the sender in the top of the > > tank and the gauge anywhere. The 2" gauges take up very little room. I think > > if you mount your throttle, mixture and carb heat in the center you will > > find that after a very short time it is the most convenient.Running the > > controls over the top of the tank seems a little high at first but is ok > > after a while and much easier. Bring the instrument panel back far enough > > and the top part of the fuel tank forward enough to get the radios in > > without notching the tank. I think about 12" will do. My panel is about 5-6" > > back from the door post. Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Richard Lamb" > > To: "TW List" > > Subject: Tailwind-List: Panel again... > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > > > > After spending some time in the cockpit, > > > (close the hanger doors so no one will see!) > > > I'm about ready to admit that Steve knew what he was doing. > > > > > > I have the panel design printed full size and mounted in the plane. > > > (Ancient Epson FX-100 can do that where "modern" printers can't > > > without a lot of cutting and pasting) > > > > > > Gives me a chance to see how the arrangement works - and where it > > > doesn't - before cutting metal! > > > > > > A single throttle lever on the left is a very simple deal, > > > but, as pointed out by several, you can't easily reach it from the > > > right seat. > > > > > > Putting a vernier on the left side is even worse. It feels very > > > ackward. Hard to be smooth with it, and it's too close to the > > > door and window. > > > > > > With the the panel mock-up in the plane, I noticed that it might be > > > possible to put verniers right under the radios and still run the > > > cables over the tank (!). It still feels a little high, but fairly > > > comfortable. > > > > > > So, back to the drawing board to move things around enough to make > > > that happen. I lost one gauge from the panel. Looks like the gas > > > gauge will be a mechanical mounted on the tank (per plans no less). > > > > > > The panel layout is a bit less "clean" looking, but there is room for > > > everything on it and it looks like it will work well. > > > > > > http://home.flash.net/~lamb01/p-k6v3c.jpg > > > > > > (I hope I got that right this time) > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:10 PM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> I'll go along with that for sure Bill. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bernard" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "William Bernard" > > Richard, there's another consideration about not running 'stuff' through the > tank. If the tank must ever be removed for some reason, it's a lot easier if > there's nothing going through it. > > Been there.....done that! > > Bill > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Lamb" > To: > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > > Smart-ellick answer is I'm a card carrying coward. > > > > Truth is I've already been in a couple of aircraft > > fires. Ok, helicopters, but it was still fire. > > My right hand is mostly burn scar tissue. > > Nice big burn scar on my right shoulder. > > They make a lasting impression. > > > > Putting a tube fore/aft in the middle of the tank > > seems like it would create a hard spot right in the > > middle of the very flexible skins of the tank. > > Perfect recipe for metal fatigue, cracks and leaks. > > > > Maybe it wouldn't actually turn out that way, but > > it really is a serious issue with me. I want to feel > > comfortable and confident in it. Not constantly worried. > > That's no way to have fun! > > > > You see, Fred, for me, just climbing in an airplane > > shows amazing courage - and no brains at all. > > > > Having sat in the thing for a few hours trying out all > > the various possibilities, the center throttle seems like > > the best compromise. I already have verniers for throttle > > and mixture. > > > > I've flown left handed. I'm (a lot!) smoother with the right, > > but in a few hours it will all feel perfectly natural. > > > > > > Fred Weaver wrote: > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Fred Weaver > > > > > > You're so funny..... If you would just put a tube thru the tank, you > > > could put Throttle, Mixture and Carb heat thru it and they would work > > > Smoothly.... come on Richard, what's keeping you from doing it? > > > :) Weav > > > On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 10:26 PM, Richard Lamb wrote: > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > > > > > > After spending some time in the cockpit, > > > > (close the hanger doors so no one will see!) > > > > I'm about ready to admit that Steve knew what he was doing. > > > > > > > > I have the panel design printed full size and mounted in the plane. > > > > (Ancient Epson FX-100 can do that where "modern" printers can't > > > > without a lot of cutting and pasting) > > > > > > > > Gives me a chance to see how the arrangement works - and where it > > > > doesn't - before cutting metal! > > > > > > > > A single throttle lever on the left is a very simple deal, > > > > but, as pointed out by several, you can't easily reach it from the > > > > right seat. > > > > > > > > Putting a vernier on the left side is even worse. It feels very > > > > ackward. Hard to be smooth with it, and it's too close to the > > > > door and window. > > > > > > > > With the the panel mock-up in the plane, I noticed that it might be > > > > possible to put verniers right under the radios and still run the > > > > cables over the tank (!). It still feels a little high, but fairly > > > > comfortable. > > > > > > > > So, back to the drawing board to move things around enough to make > > > > that happen. I lost one gauge from the panel. Looks like the gas > > > > gauge will be a mechanical mounted on the tank (per plans no less). > > > > > > > > The panel layout is a bit less "clean" looking, but there is room for > > > > everything on it and it looks like it will work well. > > > > > > > > http://home.flash.net/~lamb01/p-k6v3c.jpg > > > > > > > > (I hope I got that right this time) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:45 PM PST US From: Richard Lamb Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb Gotcha, Jim. I think I want to hand form the edges of the panel. I know that's considered a hassle by some. I might agree before I'm done, but I really enjoy the work. Very satisfying results -so far anyway. Hey? Did you get your digital camera yet? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:53 PM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Not yet Richard, going to wait untill after Christmas. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Lamb" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > Gotcha, Jim. > > I think I want to hand form the edges of the panel. > > I know that's considered a hassle by some. I might agree before > I'm done, but I really enjoy the work. > Very satisfying results -so far anyway. > > Hey? Did you get your digital camera yet? > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:41 PM PST US From: Richard Lamb Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Panel again... --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb Smart, dude! Jim and Donna Clement wrote: > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> > > Not yet Richard, going to wait untill after Christmas. Jim >