---------------------------------------------------------- Tailwind-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/16/02: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:00 AM - Re: hot steel (Jim and Donna Clement) 2. 06:11 AM - Fw: panel and fuel tank (Dallas Benham) 3. 06:33 AM - Re: panel and fuel tank (Jim and Donna Clement) 4. 06:41 AM - Re: panel and fuel tank (Louis Owen) 5. 12:23 PM - Re: hot steel (Richard Lamb) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:32 AM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: hot steel --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Richard, Fred is right on hinging, forget it. Put two screws on each side, remove and the panel is loose. Mount the radio trays so they stay with the panel. Curve the top of the panel at least one inch to prevent oil canning of the top panel. .025 is to heavy for the firewall. I like to use 28 gauge, about .015. Wicks or Spruce have SS in about .017. If you want, 28 gauge galvanized can be bought locally at a sheet metal shop, it works fine but not as pretty. The alum side panels, roll the bottoms around the longerons 1 1/2" and fasten to the lower boot cowl. Sandwich the side windows between the side boot cowl and the top instrument panel with screws going into the instrument top panel. I make the top panel in three pieces, the sides about six inches wide. 1/2" tube is fine for the W/S frame but use .028 or .035. Weld tabs to screw the W/S to. I will measure how high my panel is and distance from the floor when I go to the airport today. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Lamb" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: hot steel > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > He never lets me have any fun :( > > I still like that cross tube tho. > It's even a handy spot to secure a (hurrump) non-folding panel. > > I'll tell ya what, tho. > Jim commented about making the tank easily removable. > I'll take that one at face value. > The only thing under the tank are the mount straps > and the fuel line. > > I've had the front cabin side panels clecoed on. > Trying to get a feel for how to get everything flush and > rolled around to the bottom. That's interesting. > > I need a firewall material, and, of course, want stainless. > The .025 stuff I've seem locally is twice too heavy. > Any alternate source for .017?? > > This weekend, I bent the windshield frame for the parasol. > 1/2" .040 4130 tube. Came out pretty nice. I think I > see how to form the winshield frame for the TW now. > By comparison, that will be easy. > > Door skins and windows and frames, oh my! > Especially the back window. > I think I see now why the long pointy one is so popular! > > > Fred Weaver wrote: > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" > > > > Yo Richard... You really don't need the hinged panel. Hinging the panel is > > just a lot more engineering and you will find out with time, that you don't > > need it at all. Simplify your design by screwing it together... It's not > > like you are loading the thing with GPS, Autopilot, Radios(plural) etc > > etc... The stuff you install will be fairly accessible thru the top cover > > of the dash. > > > > Once the plane flies, you will be spending lots of time in the air and you > > won't be doinking around pivoting your panel down for maintenance. > > Honest..... > > Weav > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Richard Lamb > > To: > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: hot steel > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > > > > Thanks Jim. > > > > > > Actually, that bottom tube looks pretty handy. > > > It's located back three inches from the door frame tube. > > > > > > I have moved the panel aft. > > > The panel itself is back 5 or 6 inches from the door frame. > > > There's no obstructions at all for the top row, and the cross > > > tube is 8 or 9 inches (?) in front of the panel. > > > Think that will be enough room? > > > > > > Some of those panel drawing I did think that lower cross tube > > > would be exactly the right spot to hinge mount an instrument panel. > > > > > > The throttle at high center, and the radios in the top of the panel > > > would have to be mounted permenately. But the rest of the panel > > > could easily swing down. Having the pivot point back behind the > > > panel that far lets all the gauges swing clear without hitting > > > anything. The Tailwind panel is fairly small, and the floors > > > fairly comfortable without a stick sticking in my back. > > > Still, it's an intriguing idea. > > > > > > You know better than most people how far back behind that thing > > > you have to go sometimes... > > > > > > > > > Jim and Donna Clement wrote: > > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" > > <168x@merr.com> > > > > > > > > Richard, Cut the bottom tube out also, then you can make the panel to > > your > > > > liking. Bring it back enough to get things in with out hitting the fuel > > > > tank. Jim > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Richard Lamb" > > > > To: "TW List" > > > > Subject: Tailwind-List: hot steel > > > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > > > > > > > > My back finally had enough bending over the parasol messing with the > > > > > trim mechanism and I had to go do something else for a while. > > > > > > > > > > Went and chilled out in the TW cabin for a while (cool in the hangar > > > > > today). Finally decided it was time to do something - even if it was > > > > > wrong! > > > > > > > > > > Since the panel design has been on my mind for a while, I decided the > > > > > thing to do was cut off the top instrument panel frame tube. It's per > > > > > plans, and right in the way. With it out of the way, I can actually > > > > > start putting panel stuff together. > > > > > > > > > > Pumped up the compressor, put a steel cutting disk on the die grinder > > > > > and went at it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had forgotten the smell of hot steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The few minutes it took to cut that tube out wandered back over > > > > > 40 years of people and places - all brought together by a common > > > > > love. > > > > > > > > > > Some are gone now. > > > > > Some are brand new. > > > > > More are on the way. > > > > > > > > > > I just wanted to say - it a pleasure to know you guys. > > > > > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:55 AM PST US From: "Dallas Benham" Subject: Fw: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dallas Benham" Richard and Jim: Below is from my files on previous conversations about Tailwind construction. Hope it helps. Dallas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick and Cindy" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy > > JohnD: Made some measurements of N393RC, floor (1/4" ply) to bottom of fuel tank > (29.8 gal) is 12", floor to bottom of panel is 20 3/4", panel is 8 1/8" tall, > top of panel to bottom of front spar carry through is 8 3/8". > Rick N393RC > > john wrote: > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "john" > > > > I'm looking for some input on the panel. I measured Clements panel at > > Oshkosh and it measured 19 1/2" to the bottom, 10 1/2" of panel, which > > leaves 7" from the top of the panel, is this about what you fellows have > > come up with in your W-10s'? Clements fuel tank measured 10 1/2" above the > > floor. I must have big feet because my shoes measure 12"s', What is > > everyone doing about the distance from the floor to the tank? Thankyou. > > JohnD > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:53 AM PST US From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Looks about right, for sure go with the 12" floor to bottom of tank height. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dallas Benham" Subject: Fw: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dallas Benham" > > Richard and Jim: > > Below is from my files on previous conversations about Tailwind construction. > Hope it helps. > > Dallas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick and Cindy" > To: > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy > > > > JohnD: Made some measurements of N393RC, floor (1/4" ply) to bottom of fuel tank > > (29.8 gal) is 12", floor to bottom of panel is 20 3/4", panel is 8 1/8" tall, > > top of panel to bottom of front spar carry through is 8 3/8". > > Rick N393RC > > > > john wrote: > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "john" > > > > > > I'm looking for some input on the panel. I measured Clements panel at > > > Oshkosh and it measured 19 1/2" to the bottom, 10 1/2" of panel, which > > > leaves 7" from the top of the panel, is this about what you fellows have > > > come up with in your W-10s'? Clements fuel tank measured 10 1/2" above the > > > floor. I must have big feet because my shoes measure 12"s', What is > > > everyone doing about the distance from the floor to the tank? Thankyou. > > > JohnD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:59 AM PST US From: "Louis Owen" Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Louis Owen" My floor to tank bottom was 13". I have rather big feet. Lou Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> > > Looks about right, for sure go with the 12" floor to bottom of tank height. > Jim > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dallas Benham" > To: > Subject: Fw: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dallas Benham" > > > > > Richard and Jim: > > > > Below is from my files on previous conversations about Tailwind > construction. > > Hope it helps. > > > > Dallas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rick and Cindy" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy > > > > > > > JohnD: Made some measurements of N393RC, floor (1/4" ply) to bottom of > fuel tank > > > (29.8 gal) is 12", floor to bottom of panel is 20 3/4", panel is 8 1/8" > tall, > > > top of panel to bottom of front spar carry through is 8 3/8". > > > Rick N393RC > > > > > > john wrote: > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "john" > > > > > > > > I'm looking for some input on the panel. I measured Clements panel at > > > > Oshkosh and it measured 19 1/2" to the bottom, 10 1/2" of panel, which > > > > leaves 7" from the top of the panel, is this about what you fellows > have > > > > come up with in your W-10s'? Clements fuel tank measured 10 1/2" > above the > > > > floor. I must have big feet because my shoes measure 12"s', What is > > > > everyone doing about the distance from the floor to the tank? > Thankyou. > > > > JohnD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:04 PM PST US From: Richard Lamb Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: hot steel --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb See, there we go again - being practical! Jim and Donna Clement wrote: > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com> > > Richard, Fred is right on hinging, forget it. Put two screws on each side, > remove and the panel is loose. Mount the radio trays so they stay with the > panel. Curve the top of the panel at least one inch to prevent oil canning > of the top panel. > .025 is to heavy for the firewall. I like to use 28 gauge, about .015. Wicks > or Spruce have SS in about .017. If you want, 28 gauge galvanized can be > bought locally at a sheet metal shop, it works fine but not as pretty. > The alum side panels, roll the bottoms around the longerons 1 1/2" and > fasten to the lower boot cowl. Sandwich the side windows between the side > boot cowl and the top instrument panel with screws going into the instrument > top panel. I make the top panel in three pieces, the sides about six inches > wide. > 1/2" tube is fine for the W/S frame but use .028 or .035. Weld tabs to screw > the W/S to. I will measure how high my panel is and distance from the floor > when I go to the airport today. Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Lamb" > To: > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: hot steel > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > > He never lets me have any fun :( > > > > I still like that cross tube tho. > > It's even a handy spot to secure a (hurrump) non-folding panel. > > > > I'll tell ya what, tho. > > Jim commented about making the tank easily removable. > > I'll take that one at face value. > > The only thing under the tank are the mount straps > > and the fuel line. > > > > I've had the front cabin side panels clecoed on. > > Trying to get a feel for how to get everything flush and > > rolled around to the bottom. That's interesting. > > > > I need a firewall material, and, of course, want stainless. > > The .025 stuff I've seem locally is twice too heavy. > > Any alternate source for .017?? > > > > This weekend, I bent the windshield frame for the parasol. > > 1/2" .040 4130 tube. Came out pretty nice. I think I > > see how to form the winshield frame for the TW now. > > By comparison, that will be easy. > > > > Door skins and windows and frames, oh my! > > Especially the back window. > > I think I see now why the long pointy one is so popular! > > > > > > Fred Weaver wrote: > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" > > > > > > Yo Richard... You really don't need the hinged panel. Hinging the panel > is > > > just a lot more engineering and you will find out with time, that you > don't > > > need it at all. Simplify your design by screwing it together... It's > not > > > like you are loading the thing with GPS, Autopilot, Radios(plural) etc > > > etc... The stuff you install will be fairly accessible thru the top > cover > > > of the dash. > > > > > > Once the plane flies, you will be spending lots of time in the air and > you > > > won't be doinking around pivoting your panel down for maintenance. > > > Honest..... > > > Weav > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Richard Lamb > > > To: > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: hot steel > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > > > > > > Thanks Jim. > > > > > > > > Actually, that bottom tube looks pretty handy. > > > > It's located back three inches from the door frame tube. > > > > > > > > I have moved the panel aft. > > > > The panel itself is back 5 or 6 inches from the door frame. > > > > There's no obstructions at all for the top row, and the cross > > > > tube is 8 or 9 inches (?) in front of the panel. > > > > Think that will be enough room? > > > > > > > > Some of those panel drawing I did think that lower cross tube > > > > would be exactly the right spot to hinge mount an instrument panel. > > > > > > > > The throttle at high center, and the radios in the top of the panel > > > > would have to be mounted permenately. But the rest of the panel > > > > could easily swing down. Having the pivot point back behind the > > > > panel that far lets all the gauges swing clear without hitting > > > > anything. The Tailwind panel is fairly small, and the floors > > > > fairly comfortable without a stick sticking in my back. > > > > Still, it's an intriguing idea. > > > > > > > > You know better than most people how far back behind that thing > > > > you have to go sometimes... > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim and Donna Clement wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement" > > > <168x@merr.com> > > > > > > > > > > Richard, Cut the bottom tube out also, then you can make the panel > to > > > your > > > > > liking. Bring it back enough to get things in with out hitting the > fuel > > > > > tank. Jim > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Richard Lamb" > > > > > To: "TW List" > > > > > Subject: Tailwind-List: hot steel > > > > > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb > > > > > > > > > > > > > My back finally had enough bending over the parasol messing with > the > > > > > > trim mechanism and I had to go do something else for a while. > > > > > > > > > > > > Went and chilled out in the TW cabin for a while (cool in the > hangar > > > > > > today). Finally decided it was time to do something - even if it > was > > > > > > wrong! > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the panel design has been on my mind for a while, I decided > the > > > > > > thing to do was cut off the top instrument panel frame tube. It's > per > > > > > > plans, and right in the way. With it out of the way, I can > actually > > > > > > start putting panel stuff together. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pumped up the compressor, put a steel cutting disk on the die > grinder > > > > > > and went at it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had forgotten the smell of hot steel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The few minutes it took to cut that tube out wandered back over > > > > > > 40 years of people and places - all brought together by a common > > > > > > love. > > > > > > > > > > > > Some are gone now. > > > > > > Some are brand new. > > > > > > More are on the way. > > > > > > > > > > > > I just wanted to say - it a pleasure to know you guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >