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1. 07:10 PM - Re: Re: W-8 Elevators (Bill newkirk)
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| Subject: | Re: W-8 Elevators |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
Fred, Thanks for your thoughts.
I have 2 engines; a 2500 Subaru and an o-235. I have good and not-so-good
feelings about each. The fuselage is quite complete and has outstanding
workmanship - it supposedly was built by a shop in Santa Maria. Because of
the good quality, I have some reluctance to screw it up by "improving" it.
I have a TIG welder and am an okay welder. Jerry Hey told me that I should
fly my Murphy Rebel to Jackson and beg you for a ride. Perhaps after the
new year.
I'm considering your recommendations. Thanks again.
Bill Newkirk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@flash.net>
Subject: Tailwind-List: Re: W-8 Elevators
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver" <Mytyweav@flash.net>
>
> Bill.... I guess I have to put my 2 cents worth into this.... The size
of
> the stab/elevator combination should be increased IF you are planning on
> using a Lycoming engine for power. If you are using an 0-200 or C-85, you
> can throw my comments in the trash bin. However, if you are going to go
with
> a 135 to 160 hp lycoming, you would be well advised to build the stab
bigger
> and balance the elevators just like a W10. The thing is.....with the
heavier
> engine comes a requirement for more decalage or stab angle to harmonize
the
> trim. This is because the dry CG is so much farther forward. A stock W8
with
> the heavier engine develops very high stick loads when slowing down in the
> pattern for landing. AND Landing too... Also, without the added area,
the
> stab develops a higher level of drag in the cruise configuration. With
more
> area, you don't have to have all the angle required for straight and level
> trim..
> I flew one stock for over 10 years without the added area.. It worked but
I
> always wanted to change the way it felt........ If I had to do over, I
> would definitely add stab area along with W10 elevators. I think this
would
> help the W8 go faster and come so much closer to the nice feel of the W10.
> On long trips, I would reduce the stab angle to increase my cruise speed
by
> 7 mph. This only created higher stick forces when landing and taking off
but
> I really liked the extra speed.
>
> Which engine are you going to install?
> Fred Weaver
> Sutter Creek, CA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill newkirk <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Re: W-8 Elevators
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> >
> > Thanks for the replies. Leaving them stock would certainly be easier,
> > because they are completed.
> >
> > Bill Newkirk
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <jcsteele@ripnet.com>
> > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Re: W-8 Elevators
> >
> >
> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: <jcsteele@ripnet.com>
> > >
> > > NO.. Mine is per plans and works fine Jack Steele C-Fsny
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bill newkirk <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > To: Bill newkirk <bilnewkirk@msn.com>; tailwind-list@matronics.com
> > > <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > Date: Friday, December 20, 2002 11:28 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Re: W-8 Elevators
> > >
> > >
> > > >--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk"
> <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > >
> > > >The W-8 project I have inherited has no provision for balancing the
> > > >elevators. Is this important? Should the elevators be modified
> similar
> > to
> > > >W-10 elevators?
> > > >
> > > >Bill Newkirk
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > >To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > >Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Re: panel and fuel tank was re: hot steel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> The strap 'T" bolts can also be taken from those expensive hose
> clamps
> > > >that
> > > >> they sell at hydraulic shops. They are also stainless.
> > > >>
> > > >> Also, Jim C, what is a 'boot cowl'?
> > > >>
> > > >> Bill Newkirk
> > > >> W - 8 1/2
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com>
> > > >> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 7:57 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: Re: panel and fuel tank was re: hot
steel
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement"
> > > >> <168x@merr.com>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Bill, They make a strap bolt just for fuel tank straps. I buy
them
> > for
> > > >> about
> > > >> > $2-3 each from the hardware vender at OSH. Forget the name, he is
> the
> > > >one
> > > >> > with lots of stuff in a big tent. Also sells cowhides. Someone
here
> > > will
> > > >> > come up with his name, from Wichita area. It is a three inch tee
> > bolt.
> > > >you
> > > >> > put a hole in your strap, then bend the short end around and
either
> > > weld
> > > >> or
> > > >> > rivet to itself.
> > > >> > Make your tank 12" from the floor and pound a sump [big dent
about
> > 1/2"
> > > >> > deep, 6-7" diameter] with a outlet welded in. start bending the
> tank
> > > >> > gradually up towards the inst. panel within 2-3" from the rear
edge
> > of
> > > >the
> > > >> > sump. Reason being, if the tank is flat beyond the fuel pickup,
> fuel
> > > >runs
> > > >> > towards the rear of the tank and pulls fuel out of and away from
> the
> > > >> pickup.
> > > >> > This happens when take off is attempted with low fuel, 6-7
gallons
> or
> > > >so.
> > > >> > Make the tank same width, don't try to taper to match the
fuselage
> > > >> > dimension. Give yourself no less than 1/2" clearance on each
side,
> > they
> > > >> seem
> > > >> > to grow during construction and welding. You might have to cut
off
> > the
> > > >> upper
> > > >> > corners in the front as the engine mount bolts may hit. Put the
> vent
> > in
> > > >> the
> > > >> > filler neck. Use a short rubber hose to connect filler cap assy.
to
> > > >filler
> > > >> > neck. Fuel proof hose can be bought at NAPA store. Use a
mechanical
> > > fuel
> > > >> > gauge sender that measures ohms to the electric guage. Mount the
> > sender
> > > >in
> > > >> > the top of the tank, make sure it clears the center baffle. I
have
> > had
> > > >> three
> > > >> > probe type senders and they are junk as far as I am concerned.
> > > Stainless
> > > >> > makes a nice fuel tank strap but another is steel strapping used
> to
> > > >crate
> > > >> > things. Just about any dumpster at a manufacturing plant has lots
> of
> > > it.
> > > >> > Jim
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > From: "Eric Schlanser" <eschlanser@yahoo.com>
> > > >> > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > >> > Subject: Tailwind-List: Re: panel and fuel tank was re: hot steel
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Eric Schlanser
> > > >> <eschlanser@yahoo.com>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Group, This thread is too good to file under "hot steel". I
just
> > > >needed
> > > >> to
> > > >> > re-enter it so it can be located later in an archive search under
> > > "panel
> > > >> and
> > > >> > fuel tank". Thanks. Eric
> > > >> > > From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com>
> > > >> > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: hot steel
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement"
> > > >> > <168x@merr.com>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Richard, Fred is right on hinging, forget it. Put two screws on
> > each
> > > >> side,
> > > >> > > remove and the panel is loose. Mount the radio trays so they
stay
> > > with
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > panel. Curve the top of the panel at least one inch to prevent
> oil
> > > >> canning
> > > >> > > of the top panel.
> > > >> > > .025 is to heavy for the firewall. I like to use 28 gauge,
about
> > > .015.
> > > >> > Wicks
> > > >> > > or Spruce have SS in about .017. If you want, 28 gauge
galvanized
> > can
> > > >be
> > > >> > > bought locally at a sheet metal shop, it works fine but not as
> > > pretty.
> > > >> > > The alum side panels, roll the bottoms around the longerons 1
> 1/2"
> > > and
> > > >> > > fasten to the lower boot cowl. Sandwich the side windows
between
> > the
> > > >> side
> > > >> > > boot cowl and the top instrument panel with screws going into
the
> > > >> > instrument
> > > >> > > top panel. I make the top panel in three pieces, the sides
about
> > six
> > > >> > inches
> > > >> > > wide.
> > > >> > > 1/2" tube is fine for the W/S frame but use .028 or .035. Weld
> tabs
> > > to
> > > >> > screw
> > > >> > > the W/S to. I will measure how high my panel is and distance
from
> > the
> > > >> > floor
> > > >> > > when I go to the airport today. Jim
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > > From: "Richard Lamb"
> > > >> > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: hot steel
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > He never lets me have any fun :(
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I still like that cross tube tho.
> > > >> > > > It's even a handy spot to secure a (hurrump) non-folding
panel.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I'll tell ya what, tho.
> > > >> > > > Jim commented about making the tank easily removable.
> > > >> > > > I'll take that one at face value.
> > > >> > > > The only thing under the tank are the mount straps
> > > >> > > > and the fuel line.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I've had the front cabin side panels clecoed on.
> > > >> > > > Trying to get a feel for how to get everything flush and
> > > >> > > > rolled around to the bottom. That's interesting.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I need a firewall material, and, of course, want stainless.
> > > >> > > > The .025 stuff I've seem locally is twice too heavy.
> > > >> > > > Any alternate source for .017??
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > This weekend, I bent the windshield frame for the parasol.
> > > >> > > > 1/2" .040 4130 tube. Came out pretty nice. I think I
> > > >> > > > see how to form the winshield frame for the TW now.
> > > >> > > > By comparison, that will be easy.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Door skins and windows and frames, oh my!
> > > >> > > > Especially the back window.
> > > >> > > > I think I see now why the long pointy one is so popular!
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Fred Weaver wrote:
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Fred Weaver"
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Yo Richard... You really don't need the hinged panel.
Hinging
> > the
> > > >> > panel
> > > >> > > is
> > > >> > > > > just a lot more engineering and you will find out with
time,
> > that
> > > >> you
> > > >> > > don't
> > > >> > > > > need it at all. Simplify your design by screwing it
> together...
> > > >It's
> > > >> > > not
> > > >> > > > > like you are loading the thing with GPS, Autopilot,
> > > Radios(plural)
> > > >> etc
> > > >> > > > > etc... The stuff you install will be fairly accessible thru
> the
> > > >top
> > > >> > > cover
> > > >> > > > > of the dash.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Once the plane flies, you will be spending lots of time in
> the
> > > air
> > > >> and
> > > >> > > you
> > > >> > > > > won't be doinking around pivoting your panel down for
> > > maintenance.
> > > >> > > > > Honest.....
> > > >> > > > > Weav
> > > >> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > > > > From: Richard Lamb
> > > >> > > > > To:
> > > >> > > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: hot steel
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Richard Lamb
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > Thanks Jim.
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > Actually, that bottom tube looks pretty handy.
> > > >> > > > > > It's located back three inches from the door frame tube.
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > I have moved the panel aft.
> > > >> > > > > > The panel itself is back 5 or 6 inches from the door
frame.
> > > >> > > > > > There's no obstructions at all for the top row, and the
> cross
> > > >> > > > > > tube is 8 or 9 inches (?) in front of the panel.
> > > >> > > > > > Think that will be enough room?
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > Some of those panel drawing I did think that lower cross
> tube
> > > >> > > > > > would be exactly the right spot to hinge mount an
> instrument
> > > >> panel.
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > The throttle at high center, and the radios in the top of
> the
> > > >> panel
> > > >> > > > > > would have to be mounted permenately. But the rest of the
> > panel
> > > >> > > > > > could easily swing down. Having the pivot point back
behind
> > the
> > > >> > > > > > panel that far lets all the gauges swing clear without
> > hitting
> > > >> > > > > > anything. The Tailwind panel is fairly small, and the
> floors
> > > >> > > > > > fairly comfortable without a stick sticking in my back.
> > > >> > > > > > Still, it's an intriguing idea.
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > You know better than most people how far back behind that
> > thing
> > > >> > > > > > you have to go sometimes...
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > Jim and Donna Clement wrote:
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna
> > Clement"
> > > >> > > > > <168x@merr.com>
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > > Richard, Cut the bottom tube out also, then you can
make
> > the
> > > >> panel
> > > >> > > to
> > > >> > > > > your
> > > >> > > > > > > liking. Bring it back enough to get things in with out
> > > hitting
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > fuel
> > > >> > > > > > > tank. Jim
> > > >> > > Subject: Fw: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dallas Benham"
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Richard and Jim:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Below is from my files on previous conversations about Tailwind
> > > >> > construction.
> > > >> > > Hope it helps.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Dallas
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > > From: "Rick and Cindy"
> > > >> > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: Rick and Cindy
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > JohnD: Made some measurements of N393RC, floor (1/4" ply) to
> > bottom
> > > >of
> > > >> > fuel tank
> > > >> > > > (29.8 gal) is 12", floor to bottom of panel is 20 3/4", panel
> is
> > 8
> > > >> 1/8"
> > > >> > tall,
> > > >> > > > top of panel to bottom of front spar carry through is 8 3/8".
> > > >> > > > Rick N393RC
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > john wrote:
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "john"
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > I'm looking for some input on the panel. I measured
Clements
> > > panel
> > > >> at
> > > >> > > > > Oshkosh and it measured 19 1/2" to the bottom, 10 1/2" of
> > panel,
> > > >> which
> > > >> > > > > leaves 7" from the top of the panel, is this about what you
> > > >fellows
> > > >> > have
> > > >> > > > > come up with in your W-10s'? Clements fuel tank measured 10
> > 1/2"
> > > >> above
> > > >> > the
> > > >> > > > > floor. I must have big feet because my shoes measure 12"s',
> > What
> > > >is
> > > >> > > > > everyone doing about the distance from the floor to the
tank?
> > > >> > Thankyou.
> > > >> > > > > JohnD
> > > >> > > From: "Jim and Donna Clement" <168x@merr.com>
> > > >> > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Jim and Donna Clement"
> > > >> > <168x@merr.com>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Looks about right, for sure go with the 12" floor to bottom of
> tank
> > > >> > height.
> > > >> > > Jim
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > > From: "Dallas Benham"
> > > >> > > Subject: Fw: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Dallas Benham"
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > From: "Louis Owen"
> > > >> > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: panel and fuel tank
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Louis Owen"
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > My floor to tank bottom was 13". I have rather big feet.
> > > >> > > Lou Owen
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ---------------------------------
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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