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1. 11:29 AM - Re: 0-235 IN A W-8 (Earl Luce)
2. 11:36 AM - Re: 0-235 IN A W-8 (Earl Luce)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 0-235 IN A W-8 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Earl Luce" <luceair@worldnet.att.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
>
> Thanks, Dave.
>
> Bill Newkirk
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> >
> > The portion of the elevator that is forward of the hinge (I don't know
> what
> > it is called specifically--it is the counter tab at the outer end) has
> lead
> > in it to balance the elevator with the balance point being the hinge
line
> > (the center of the front elevator tube that has the hinges on it). This
> is
> > done taking into account the weight of the fabric and paint, since that
> will
> > add more weight to the back portion of the elevator (ie behind the hinge
> > line). Since I put the lead in before covering, I had taken a swatch of
> > covering that I had from another plane, weighed it and calculated the
area
> > and thus the weight and moment for the covering of the elevator. Added
> lead
> > to the front of the tab to balance. It came out in the end perfectly,
> > although I could have drilled the lead for fine tuning.
> >
> > Does this help?
> > Dave
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> >
> >
> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk"
<bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > >
> > > DAVE;
> > > I don't know what you mean when you say you "balanced the elevator at
> the
> > > hinge line(with covering)." Please enlighten me.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Bill Newkirk
> > > Fresno CA
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > >
> > > > I only sized the tailfeathers to the W-10 size, but rounded the
> leading
> > > > outer corner to look more W-8 style rather than the sharp corner of
> the
> > > > W-10. I have the counter weight portion just like the W-10, and I
> > > balanced
> > > > the elevator at the hinge line (with covering). The leading edge of
> the
> > > > horizontal stab, because of the slightly increased size, is ahead of
> the
> > > > place where it normally bolts to the fuselage. I just used a
locking
> > > > nutplate in the stab and bolt through from inside the fuselage. The
> > > > vertical stab and rudder are sized to the same area as the W-10
> > (slightly
> > > > larger than W-8), but again had the rounded leading corner per W-8
> > style.
> > > > You can see pics of my plane on the Unofficial tailwind site under
> > N202Q.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk"
> > <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > DAVE;
> > > > > Thanks for your reply.
> > > > > How much modification have you done to the tail feathers?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill Newkirk
> > > > > Fresno
> > > > > N13BN (Murphy Rebel)
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw"
> <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill: I have a W-8 (but with W-10 tailfeathers and modified
W-10
> > > > > controls)
> > > > > > that I flew with an O-235 for a year (156 hours) both long cross
> > > country
> > > > > and
> > > > > > local flights. It is a delightful plane to fly. Max speed was
> > about
> > > > 157
> > > > > > MPH, but I think I could have gained a few MPH with a prop with
a
> > > little
> > > > > > less pitch, and perhaps a little cleanup on the airframe here
and
> > > there.
> > > > > My
> > > > > > biggest complaint was that at gross (1300#, mty was 800#) and
> higher
> > > > > density
> > > > > > altitudes, the takeoff and climb performance was much like a
> Cessna
> > > 150.
> > > > > > Again, some prop mods could have improved that some. But I want
> to
> > be
> > > > > able
> > > > > > to fly out of Tahoe and places in New Mexico and Colorado on hot
> > days
> > > > with
> > > > > > two people and baggage and still have fuel to get somewhere.
The
> > > O-235
> > > > > will
> > > > > > not give safe performance with those conditions, in my opinion.
> > > > > Therefore,
> > > > > > I am in the process of converting to a 150 HP O-320. It will
fit
> > > right
> > > > in
> > > > > > and the weight is not much more. I am going to add an auxiliary
> > fuel
> > > > tank
> > > > > > behind the seat, also will help with the W&B.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dave
> > > > > > N202Q
> > > > > > W-8+
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I appreciated Boud's response to the question of a 320 in a
W8.
> > How
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > an O-235. I have one and have dis-assembled it for
rebuilding.
> I
> > > > have
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > W8/W9 to put it in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill Newkirk,
> > > > > > > Fresno, CA
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Boud Kuenen" <bkuenen@horizonaero.com>
> > > > > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-320 installed in W-8
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Boud Kuenen"
> > > > > > > <bkuenen@horizonaero.com>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gary,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The W-8 airframe is about 7 inches shorter than a W-10 and
it
> > has
> > > > less
> > > > > > > > horizontal stabilizer area as well as different design
> > horizontal
> > > > > > > stabilizer
> > > > > > > > incidence. If you assume that your weight and balance will
be
> > OK
> > > > > (which
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > won't), the higher speed will cause a higher wing torsion
> moment
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > airframe which will require a greater balancing force from
the
> > > > > > horizontal
> > > > > > > > stabilizer. This means you will have to reset the leading
> edge
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tail
> > > > > > > > down. This will cause greater trim drag, and reduce the
> amount
> > of
> > > > > > > nose-down
> > > > > > > > force available for such tings as high angle of attach
> recovery.
> > > > The
> > > > > > net
> > > > > > > > increase in airspeed will not be what you might expect and
you
> > > will
> > > > > > > > substantialy reduce the stability of the airplane. In
> certified
> > > > > > airplanes
> > > > > > > > that went to bigger engines over the years, (like cessna 210
> and
> > > > Piper
> > > > > > > > Comanche) the solution was/is a complicated system of
balance
> > > > springs
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > bob weights attached to the elevator system; certainly not
> what
> > > you
> > > > > want
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > put in a Tailwind. If you compute the numbers on horsepower
> > only,
> > > > > > (forget
> > > > > > > > increased weight, cooling drag, trim drag, propeller
> efficiency,
> > > > etc.)
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > expected speed increase from a 150 hp engine would be about
> 18%,
> > > but
> > > > > > given
> > > > > > > > everything else thats involved, it probably wouldn't even be
> > 10%.
> > > > > Also
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > you would have an airplane that is less stable, feel
sluggish
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > controls (especially in pitch), have less useful load and
> range,
> > > > etc.,
> > > > > > > etc.
> > > > > > > > See why Steve said, "keep it light"? In my opinion, a W-8
is
> > one
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > best airplanes ever designed for 85-100 hp, keep it that
way.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Boud Kuenen
> > > > > > > > NX888WT
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Gary Fincher" <backcountry@peedeeworld.net>
> > > > > > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Tailwind-List: 0-320 installed in W-8
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Gary Fincher"
> > > > > > > > <backcountry@peedeeworld.net>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have a W-8 with a C-90 and am interested in installing a
> > > 0-320.
> > > > I
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > told that the W-8 wasn't designed for the 0-320 to be
> installed.
> > > Is
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > any out there flying? If so what needs to be done? Any
replies
> > > will
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > appreciated. Thanks, Gary Fincher
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 0-235 IN A W-8 |
--> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Earl Luce" <luceair@worldnet.att.net>
About the elevator balance....................... This is not a static
balance with weight installed , it is an aerodynamic balance which takes the
load off the stick forces and counters any modes of flutter. Wittman never
put any weight in it .
Earl Luce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
>
> Thanks, Dave.
>
> Bill Newkirk
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
>
>
> > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> >
> > The portion of the elevator that is forward of the hinge (I don't know
> what
> > it is called specifically--it is the counter tab at the outer end) has
> lead
> > in it to balance the elevator with the balance point being the hinge
line
> > (the center of the front elevator tube that has the hinges on it). This
> is
> > done taking into account the weight of the fabric and paint, since that
> will
> > add more weight to the back portion of the elevator (ie behind the hinge
> > line). Since I put the lead in before covering, I had taken a swatch of
> > covering that I had from another plane, weighed it and calculated the
area
> > and thus the weight and moment for the covering of the elevator. Added
> lead
> > to the front of the tab to balance. It came out in the end perfectly,
> > although I could have drilled the lead for fine tuning.
> >
> > Does this help?
> > Dave
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> >
> >
> > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk"
<bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > >
> > > DAVE;
> > > I don't know what you mean when you say you "balanced the elevator at
> the
> > > hinge line(with covering)." Please enlighten me.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Bill Newkirk
> > > Fresno CA
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> > >
> > >
> > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > >
> > > > I only sized the tailfeathers to the W-10 size, but rounded the
> leading
> > > > outer corner to look more W-8 style rather than the sharp corner of
> the
> > > > W-10. I have the counter weight portion just like the W-10, and I
> > > balanced
> > > > the elevator at the hinge line (with covering). The leading edge of
> the
> > > > horizontal stab, because of the slightly increased size, is ahead of
> the
> > > > place where it normally bolts to the fuselage. I just used a
locking
> > > > nutplate in the stab and bolt through from inside the fuselage. The
> > > > vertical stab and rudder are sized to the same area as the W-10
> > (slightly
> > > > larger than W-8), but again had the rounded leading corner per W-8
> > style.
> > > > You can see pics of my plane on the Unofficial tailwind site under
> > N202Q.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Bill newkirk" <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Bill newkirk"
> > <bilnewkirk@msn.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > DAVE;
> > > > > Thanks for your reply.
> > > > > How much modification have you done to the tail feathers?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill Newkirk
> > > > > Fresno
> > > > > N13BN (Murphy Rebel)
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "David Magaw" <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-235 IN A W-8
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "David Magaw"
> <dmagaw@att.net>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill: I have a W-8 (but with W-10 tailfeathers and modified
W-10
> > > > > controls)
> > > > > > that I flew with an O-235 for a year (156 hours) both long cross
> > > country
> > > > > and
> > > > > > local flights. It is a delightful plane to fly. Max speed was
> > about
> > > > 157
> > > > > > MPH, but I think I could have gained a few MPH with a prop with
a
> > > little
> > > > > > less pitch, and perhaps a little cleanup on the airframe here
and
> > > there.
> > > > > My
> > > > > > biggest complaint was that at gross (1300#, mty was 800#) and
> higher
> > > > > density
> > > > > > altitudes, the takeoff and climb performance was much like a
> Cessna
> > > 150.
> > > > > > Again, some prop mods could have improved that some. But I want
> to
> > be
> > > > > able
> > > > > > to fly out of Tahoe and places in New Mexico and Colorado on hot
> > days
> > > > with
> > > > > > two people and baggage and still have fuel to get somewhere.
The
> > > O-235
> > > > > will
> > > > > > not give safe performance with those conditions, in my opinion.
> > > > > Therefore,
> > > > > > I am in the process of converting to a 150 HP O-320. It will
fit
> > > right
> > > > in
> > > > > > and the weight is not much more. I am going to add an auxiliary
> > fuel
> > > > tank
> > > > > > behind the seat, also will help with the W&B.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dave
> > > > > > N202Q
> > > > > > W-8+
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I appreciated Boud's response to the question of a 320 in a
W8.
> > How
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > an O-235. I have one and have dis-assembled it for
rebuilding.
> I
> > > > have
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > W8/W9 to put it in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill Newkirk,
> > > > > > > Fresno, CA
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Boud Kuenen" <bkuenen@horizonaero.com>
> > > > > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Tailwind-List: 0-320 installed in W-8
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Boud Kuenen"
> > > > > > > <bkuenen@horizonaero.com>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gary,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The W-8 airframe is about 7 inches shorter than a W-10 and
it
> > has
> > > > less
> > > > > > > > horizontal stabilizer area as well as different design
> > horizontal
> > > > > > > stabilizer
> > > > > > > > incidence. If you assume that your weight and balance will
be
> > OK
> > > > > (which
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > won't), the higher speed will cause a higher wing torsion
> moment
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > airframe which will require a greater balancing force from
the
> > > > > > horizontal
> > > > > > > > stabilizer. This means you will have to reset the leading
> edge
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > > tail
> > > > > > > > down. This will cause greater trim drag, and reduce the
> amount
> > of
> > > > > > > nose-down
> > > > > > > > force available for such tings as high angle of attach
> recovery.
> > > > The
> > > > > > net
> > > > > > > > increase in airspeed will not be what you might expect and
you
> > > will
> > > > > > > > substantialy reduce the stability of the airplane. In
> certified
> > > > > > airplanes
> > > > > > > > that went to bigger engines over the years, (like cessna 210
> and
> > > > Piper
> > > > > > > > Comanche) the solution was/is a complicated system of
balance
> > > > springs
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > bob weights attached to the elevator system; certainly not
> what
> > > you
> > > > > want
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > put in a Tailwind. If you compute the numbers on horsepower
> > only,
> > > > > > (forget
> > > > > > > > increased weight, cooling drag, trim drag, propeller
> efficiency,
> > > > etc.)
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > expected speed increase from a 150 hp engine would be about
> 18%,
> > > but
> > > > > > given
> > > > > > > > everything else thats involved, it probably wouldn't even be
> > 10%.
> > > > > Also
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > you would have an airplane that is less stable, feel
sluggish
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > controls (especially in pitch), have less useful load and
> range,
> > > > etc.,
> > > > > > > etc.
> > > > > > > > See why Steve said, "keep it light"? In my opinion, a W-8
is
> > one
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > best airplanes ever designed for 85-100 hp, keep it that
way.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Boud Kuenen
> > > > > > > > NX888WT
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Gary Fincher" <backcountry@peedeeworld.net>
> > > > > > > > To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Tailwind-List: 0-320 installed in W-8
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --> Tailwind-List message posted by: "Gary Fincher"
> > > > > > > > <backcountry@peedeeworld.net>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have a W-8 with a C-90 and am interested in installing a
> > > 0-320.
> > > > I
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > told that the W-8 wasn't designed for the 0-320 to be
> installed.
> > > Is
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > any out there flying? If so what needs to be done? Any
replies
> > > will
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > appreciated. Thanks, Gary Fincher
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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